Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace all
I saw the red moon last night and thought what an unusual red and big moon. I did not think much of it till I read this thread. So if what I have read is correct, we are suppose to fast for 3 to 5 days from seeing the moon? Can someone explain the significants in small bullet points as a summary? There is so much I need to learn its a little mind blowing. Thanks in advance.
May Allah guide us to the truth.
Peace
ONly read this artical no need to go through all pages.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0
Hope
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Peace, about 140 of them are circular arguments. But thanks for pointing out the obvious
obvious is the most difficult but you are welcome!
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but she must know all the arguments not just that one post!
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She OR he what type of optical your wearing??
sorry to offend you good sir, it was just a typo!
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please we are not yet sure as when is ramadan.
we have to be clear on this.
i think the matter is in its simplicity.
we have to observe the moon again.
and see more proof from the quran.
the proof we take must be obvious,no (taaweel)
we still need to figure out what is shahr and we need to figure out when is ramadan.
remmember only the quran will do,as for other sources ,i find difficulty to take .
thank you and salam.
the quran says that ramadan has bayinat so it is more then one sign.so it is not just the moon phase or full moon or no moon.we neeed more proof for ramadan. as for those signs and what they are we need to find from the quran.
give it more time ,allah is mercifull and he will show us in shaa. -
Salaam Hope
I saw the red moon last night and thought what an unusual red and big moon. I did not think much of it till I read this thread. So if what I have read is correct, we are suppose to fast for 3 to 5 days from seeing the moon? Can someone explain the significants in small bullet points as a summary? There is so much I need to learn its a little mind blowing. Thanks in advance.
The period of abstention is related to the Arabic word -shahr-.
Verse 2185 states that the duration of a full moon is relevant for the length of the period of abstention.- ... those of you who witness this full moon shall fast therein ... -
The plural-form of the word days relating to the abstention mentioned in verse 2184 requires a number of more than two.
The duration of the full-moon illusion with at least 98% coverage is three days.This seems to be a compelling quranic ruling with a clear unambiguous time-frame.
An abstention out of the time-frame of the duration of the full moon is not suggested in the relevant verses.
There seems not to be another verse that could put this aside in a compelling way.Other related verses and comments can be read at
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600410.0Salaam and ramadan kareem
truthseeker171 -
Salaam Mohamad
the quran says that ramadan has bayinat so it is more then one sign.so it is not just the moon phase or full moon or no moon.we neeed more proof for ramadan. as for those signs and what they are we need to find from the quran.
Verse 2185 - The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the Criterion (of right and wrong). And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month .... -
Pickthall - between brackets is added.The word -bayinat- relates to the Koran not to the word -ramadan-.
The Koran states that one should abstain the -shahr ramadan- when it is witnessed.
A full moon can be witnessed and abstained - other readings would be rather illogical.
We can not witness a whole month and go back into time and abstain the month.
The period between the two -hilal- when the moon is absent does not seem to be relevant either. We can not witness the absence of the moon in an unambiguous way that we would be able to know the period of fasting - most of the day the moon is absent.
Furthermore verse 2189 informs the believers that the -hilal- is a timing-device for the people and the hadj.
The -hilal- has a general function as a timing-device for personal affairs and the -hilal- is a timing-device for the hadj - one of the two communal Islamic events.
The Quran is complete and fully detailed.
Compelling seems to be the absence in this verse of the other communal Islamic event the communal abstention, so we can conclude that the -hilal- is not relevant for the duration of the period of abstention.Salaam
truthseeker171 -
yes i see brother,wow ,you are clear.
it might mean that al shahr is the full moon.
but does that mean that we should fast on every full moon 12 times a year for two or three days.
the quran states only two.
for when you first see it then comes day one and then day two.
it clearly says that you can be with your woman in day one and eat and drink on day two.
so we can stilll use the end of the moon phase for haj as for ramadan it is the full moon.right
i see truth seeker ramadan was not mentioned in the moon phase change only haj and timing ,you are right ,
thank you you made something very diffuclt for me easy
i dont know what to say .
you are a brother.
but now we need to know is there one month a year or more.
you get what i mean.
thank you appreciate your reply.
salam
as for haj the no moon phase apply and how the four month are different from the others ,stilll needs to be tested.
thank you ' -
what i find difficult ,is how to know it is full moon.
i sometimes confuse the full moon from the semi-full moon.
yesterday was a full moon . i think it is easy if we use numbers as when the moon was born.
so we might fast for twelve of those days of full moon are they three or two i dont know.
the aya is clear.
so they might be three.
thank you seeker.
salam. -
so we have the shahr that is the full moon.
so we have like twelve consecutive times to fast a year. twelve of those
addind up to two or three days each. right.
as for the no moon phases they are for haj and that we know the times.
that is cool .and the moon pheses are for us to know the times.
ok i see.
i still think that there are times in between the moon phases that are different in length sothatwe know when is haj.
but see there is some contradiction here .there are ashhur hurum the ones for haj .and when ahilat was mentioned we see clearly that the quran states so we know when are those times for haj , clearly stating the no moon phases.the ending of the moon phase and the beggining of the other"ahhilat"
pls consider. they are called ashhur ,so the ashhur hurum are not full moons.because the quran clearly states that the ahillat are the times of haj.
as for the full moon i think the quran states it to be the al arjoon . the lantern.
pls consider ,i know you have spent a long time on this but i want to be clear . thank you and thank you seeker .
so shahr ramadan is not a full moon but a no moon phase.
i think it is mostly three nights in length,as stated. but we neeed to know when are ashhur hurum.we need proof from the quran ,we needd to keep on looking .
maybe when we know the missing peace it will be clearer.
they are simply unique months with similarities.
ashhur hurum meaning unique.
kissas. meaning similar or equal. -
and there is in the quran al haj al akbar. what does that mean. i dont know
i am only speculating ,could it be one of longer length like three insted of two or four insted of three.
just putting more to look at .
thank you . -
truth seeker.
i have something that i want to share with you ,tell me what you think.
the aya is clear it says that who ever sees the full moon the shahr then he must fast.
and in here we despute whta is a shahr is say it is the no moon like the new moon as it is known and you say it is the full moon.
i dont know.
the aya says who ever sees it then he must fast.
does this meanthat seeing and fasting go togther.
i want to give you an example
when i say the shahr is the no moon or known as full moon then you should clearly know that it can be seen once .
yes the moon that cannot be seen at night when it is new can sometimes be see during the day and this happens once a year what do you think.
so we can some how see that something happens once a year for like two days where the moon can be seen after sunset adn during the day but there is no moon it is a new moon and that happens once a year.
pls let us reflect more on this ,i think we need to giveit more time ,dont jump to conclusions and dont get misguided from thta which is not quran. i see it gives others the exact opposite as some claim that the prophet saws used to fast on a full moon. pls we have to discover from the quran.
let us see further this issue.
salam -
Salaam Mohamad
the aya says who ever sees it then he must fast.
does this meanthat seeing and fasting go togther.Verse 2185 states that when one witnesses the -shahr ramadan- one has to abstain it.
Witnessing can mean literally seeing, but allegorically it can mean being present.
Millions of people did not see the -shahr ramadan- because it was clouded in their region.
So following moon-calendars could be the best way - the believers can witness the -shahr ramadan- in the most unambiguous way.when i say the shahr is the no moon or known as full moon then you should clearly know that it can be seen once .
yes the moon that cannot be seen at night when it is new can sometimes be see during the day and this happens once a year what do you think.
so we can some how see that something happens once a year for like two days where the moon can be seen after sunset adn during the day but there is no moon it is a new moon and that happens once a year.We can not prove your assumption that once a year the new moon is seen during the day and not during the night. This is highly unlikely.
The -shahr ramadan- is one of the 12 or 13 full moons of the year - it is related to the scorching heat - that is the meaning of the word ramadan.
In Arabia that is the moment of the summersolstice - june 21.
The first full moon after the summersolstice indicates the period of abstention - this once a year and unambiguous.Salaam
truthseeker171 -
in shaa allah i will put aya numbers soon. as for now ,
if one is to take full moons as signs then it is difficult because one cannot know when it is exactly full ,even to the professional eye.
i think it is not to do with the full moon .
besides the name of the full moon in the quran is al qamar.
the aya states wa qadarnahu manzilla hatta ada kal irjun al kadeem.
al qamar is the whole moon i think.
but it was not ever given to be a sign for fasting .it was never said who witness the al qamar then fast. it was said who witness al shahr.
i have more proof from quran,,but i will stay silent for now. i dont know why but i dont feel i can come out with this at the moment. i would like to be more quranic about it.
salam. -
Salaam Mohamad
if one is to take full moons as signs then it is difficult because one cannot know when it is exactly full ,even to the professional eye.
You are right in stating that the full moon has not a 100 percent clear beginning and ending - the same we can say for the -hilal-, regarding the international debates about the beginning and ending of the traditional fast of the sunni, shia and others.
And as said before verse 2189 states that the -hilal- is only relevant for the hajj and personal timing for the people, the other communal event; the period of fasting is not mentioned. From this we can deduce that another timing-device is relevant for the -shahr ramadan-.A moon-calender can show us the moment of the scientific full moon - exactly to the minute, but the full moon with at least 98% coverage lasts three days, no shorter not longer.
What can be discussed is when the three days of fasting start.
Is it one day before the scientific full moon when there is 98% coverage - so day 3 will also have about 98 % coverage?
Or is it the start after the scientific full moon with about 99.+x % coverage and do we accept that the moon is at day 3 of the fast only 96 % visible?Verse 2184 states that the fast should be more than two days - regarding the plural-form days -ayyaamaan-.
So the full moon can be a perfect marker of the beginning and ending of the three days of fasting.
Only there is to be decided if the scientifical or the visual full moon is to be followed - 98 % coverage is a visual full moon.Salaam
truthseeker171 -
i was trying to take this further the timing or ramadan and ashhur hurum.
and i think there is this time in the year where the new moon the full moon that cannot be seen for it is on the side of the sun,only once a year for about one hour in the horizon it can be seen. some call it twilight.
the strange thing about it is that it is a shahr as i stated before and it is seen,now what is really strange is that a shahr cannot be seen ,becuase mostly at night when we got the shahr it is on the side of the sun so cannot be seen ,it is in between the cresents.
now i got to go back to the quran,it says
man shahida minkum el shahr fal yasoumh.
meaning who ever witness the new moon shall fast.
but how can we witness tthe new moon ,it cannnot be seen.
only on that night where it is in the horizon ,its shaded part can be seen. the sun shows it even after it sets .
the quran states
alam tara eella rabika kayfa mada al zthilla wa laaw shaaa la jaalahou sakinaan thouma jaalana al shamsa alayhi dallilla.2544
thuma kabadnahu elayna kabdan yaseera2545
the strange is yet to come.
after ramadan there comes four shouhour where we cannot see the hillal in the first middle part of the night. it cannot be witnessed the moon is never seen on those four months.
strange yes.
the moon can only be seeen even if it was a hillal in the later part of the night when people are mostly sleeping.
unlike the other eight month.
what you think.
this is only possible if al shahr means new moon. the unseen moon.
and about the seasons on our planet well yes they do mean a lot to our calendar. but seasons are always changing there location on the star map.
they change every 19 years to come back where they have started. so the true year is the lunar year adn our seasons my friend seem to be changing location.
if we look at the big picture what is bigger our solar system or the universe.
and it seems that one rotation around the universe map is one year adn the seasons are changing with time, theire timing.
so that when it was the time of ramadan that was the exact time the quran came down. and exact location. but if we take the solar timing it keeps on changing in regard to the universal map.so one time it is in scorpio and the other it is in some other insstalation and that is pointless.
so the time is actually a location is space. ramadan shows us the time and location of where the quran came down from .there might be a (mi3raj )there. or there might be a bab or abwab.so it is either a black hole or some worm whole of some sort. and allah is most knowledgable. or it points directly to something. alah knows best.but that is how the quran came down to us from there.there is ramadan.
please tell me what you think.
salam from mohamad.