Taking off the Hijab

unknownuser

the great Maulana google is here just name your country please!

anyone else who claims that "In my country, street harassment is basically non-existent." please come forward and tell us the name of country and get our appreciations! bravo

and Leyna how many cities are there in your country and in how many cities you have experience of living there?

And those on facebook would like to join http//www.stopstreetharassment.com/

unknownuser

Peace, David,

no offense, but this thread is about the particular experiences and feelings related to taking off the hijab, not about whether it's an obligation or not.

Peace Leyna

Thank you for your reply.

I know that this thread is not about whether Hijab is an obligation or not, but i wrote it since i thought it was relevant to the rest of the things I wrote in my post. And when it comes to the article i posted, as I have already said i do not agree with everything the authour says. And if I am going to explain further I actually do not agree with most of what the author says. But the thing i thought was interesting was the comparison between two extremes (Bikini and Burka).

I was talking about Egypt, and there it does NOT matter how you dress. You do get more harassment when you don't wear a headscarf, or when your ankles / forearms can be seen. But in general, all women get harassed, even those who wear niqab.

First you say that it does not matter how you dress, then you say that you do get more harassment when you don't wear headscarf or when your ankles/forearms can be seen. What you are saying is a contradiction. Because you first say that it does not matter, then you say that it matters.

I believe it does matter how someone dress. And the Quran backs up my claim

Quran 3359
O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the women of the believers that they should lengthen upon themselves their outer garments. That is better so that they will not be recognized and harmed. God is Forgiver, Merciful.

I got a some questions for you

What do you view as modest clothing? How do you think a woman should dress in the summer?

What is feminism? How is your view of feminism? And are you a feminist?

Have you read the history about feminism?

Do you believe that a person can support women rights without being a feminist?

Feminism has done much good for society. This is a fact. But did you know that feminism has been negative for the society as well?

Thanks.

Leyna

Since taking it off i still am harassed but I have 'the look' apparently that stops them in their tracks now, while wearing it I did not have 'the look' as it made me feel I should keep my head down and not cause a scene like a nice pious muslimah, bah!

LOL. I remember during my first and second year in Egypt, I was also very timid, but after that I developed a slightly different attitude. I don't feel apologetic for not being covered anymore, I don't feel apologetic for being Western. If people feel they have the right to look down on me without even knowing me, just based on their twisted preconceptions, believing that all uncovered women are sluts and all Western women are basically prostitutes, that just makes me feel sorry for them, and I also feel a lot of contempt for such an attitude.

I also noticed that the harassment has become slightly less since I changed my attitude and feel more self-confident. However, it is still too much and for me still constitutes one of the major downsides of living in Egypt.

I have said before somewhere that back in my own country I could go to Sainsbury's in shorts and strappy top and not get a second or even first glance, no problems at all, here in Egypt even though I still cover from the neck down I still get looks and unwanted comments, until I give 'the look' .

Same here. I am currently back home, and it is very hot at the moment. One of the things I tremendously enjoy is being able to just go out in a skirt and a tank top, being able to feel the air and the sun on your skin without ever having to worry about people looking at you or getting harassed. In Cairo, I am always covered from head to toe but can't even walk to the store around the corner without being leered at, commented upon, harassed etc.

I get looks from girls here too now, the look up and down like im some piece of dirt and they have weighed me up and judged me from a glance. Girls that wear 2 or 3 scarves at a time with the tightest glittery tops and sprayed on jeans with 'the walk' that my arse just will not do!

Yessss ... those looks used to intimidate me so much in the beginning. Now, as I said above, I just feel sorry for those girls. And if they stare at me for too long I just ask them in Arabic whether there is something wrong with me or whether they've never seen a woman. That usually shuts them up.

Ayisha

LOL. I remember during my first and second year in Egypt, I was also very timid, but after that I developed a slightly different attitude. I don't feel apologetic for not being covered anymore, I don't feel apologetic for being Western. If people feel they have the right to look down on me without even knowing me, just based on their twisted preconceptions, believing that all uncovered women are sluts and all Western women are basically prostitutes, that just makes me feel sorry for them, and I also feel a lot of contempt for such an attitude.

I also noticed that the harassment has become slightly less since I changed my attitude and feel more self-confident. However, it is still too much and for me still constitutes one of the major downsides of living in Egypt.
i agree with you about the girls, it is sad and contemptable

I think the attitude I have now which brings in 'the look' that stops them going further is an attitude you have to learn living here, everytime I have given 'the look' I have had 'ahh you living here' ;D

Same here. I am currently back home, and it is very hot at the moment. One of the things I tremendously enjoy is being able to just go out in a skirt and a tank top, being able to feel the air and the sun on your skin without ever having to worry about people looking at you or getting harassed. In Cairo, I am always covered from head to toe but can't even walk to the store around the corner without being leered at, commented upon, harassed etc.

Yessss ... those looks used to intimidate me so much in the beginning. Now, as I said above, I just feel sorry for those girls. And if they stare at me for too long I just ask them in Arabic whether there is something wrong with me or whether they've never seen a woman. That usually shuts them up.

I swear one day I will ask in Arabic if they want a picture! ;D I will ask hubby how to say 'have you never seen a white woman before?' though

Leyna

Peace, David.

And if I am going to explain further I actually do not agree with most of what the author says.

Alhamdullilah.

I believe it does matter how someone dress. And the Quran backs up my claim

David, I agree that it does matter how someone dresses. But I get a bit sensitive if people come up with the argument that "correct clothing" prevents harassment. That has to do with my personal experience of living in Egypt, because there is a heated debate about sexual harassment going on there. And part of the problem is that people don't acknowledge the need for education, manners etc. but claim that the problem would be solved if only women covered up more. A few examples of this attitude have been given earlier in this thread -- for example the advertisement that depicts women as lollipops and men as flies.
yuck

What do you view as modest clothing? How do you think a woman should dress in the summer?

I believe it is not possible to make a general statement because it depends on the country, the circumstances and so on. As I said, I dress differently in Germany than I dress in Egypt. And how I dress also depends on whether I go to work, shopping, visiting friends, a beach and so on.

Actually, the verse you posted is very interesting in that regard. I always thought the fact that there is no specific length of clothes being defined in that verse is not a coincidence but a very meaningful fact. Because, as I said above, what is being considered modest or provocative depends on so many factors. Thus it is left to the individual to decide according to the circumstances / situation what they find appropriate.

What is feminism? How is your view of feminism? And are you a feminist?

Yes, I would most definitely consider myself a feminist. For me, that basically means that I believe men and women should have equal rights and that no person should be discriminated against, or have certain tasks / roles forced upon them based on their gender. I believe that gender discrimination and stereotyping harms both, men and women alike.

So it's very simple. A detailled discussion about feminism would definitely go to far in this thread, I believe.

Have you read the history about feminism?

Yes.

Do you believe that a person can support women rights without being a feminist?

Yes, of course. Also, I know many people who are definitely feminists as per my understanding of the word, but they would never describe themselves as such. There are a lot of misconceptions and negative connotations associated with the word, so some people do not want to be associated with this particular term.

Feminism has done much good for society. This is a fact. But did you know that feminism has been negative for the society as well?

No. And I don't believe that. But maybe we should leave the discussion about feminism for another thread since this is the "taking off hijab" discussion.

peace

Leyna

I swear one day I will ask in Arabic if they want a picture! ;D

I have done that. ;D

I will ask hubby how to say 'have you never seen a white woman before?' though D

Enti mashofteesh khawageya abl kidda?

unknownuser

Dear Leyna,

It is nice discussing with you. You are a fair and reasonable woman, and I give you credit for that handshake

And I think it was unnecessary to point out something you said which was a contradiction. None of us are perfect, and we can all make mistakes. So forget what i wrote about your contradiction. It was unnecesary of me to write that. So I will take that back )

No. And I don't believe that. But maybe we should leave the discussion about feminism for another thread since this is the "taking off hijab" discussion.

I hope you are not in denial of reality, and that you just don't know about the negative things feminism has done to women and men in our society. And about the hidden history of feminism. If you are not in denial of reality (which you are probably not), then you may wish to do a research about the negative things feminism has done to society. This is just some advice from me. I tell you this with good intention. peace

Leyna

And I think it was unnecessary to point out something you said which was a contradiction. None of us are perfect, and we can all make mistakes. So forget what i wrote about your contradiction. It was unnecesary of me to write that. So I will take that back
)

Nooo, you don't have to. You are right, what I wrote sounds like a clear contradiction, and I didn't express myself properly.

I am off to meet a friend at the park now though, so I will clarify later.

OK, speaking of going to the park ... I'm wearing a long skirt and a tank top. I will see people dressed in all sorts of styles there, some will wear Jeans and a T-Shirt, some will wear a bikini (a minority though), there will be short and long dresses and pants and pretty much everything in between.

The other week when hanging out there, I was sitting beside a group of Turkish people. One woman was wearing a headscarf, right beside her was a woman in a miniskirt and a tank top. That's the sort of thing I like ... diversity and no separation of people because of the way they dress.

Have a good evening everyone. peace

unknownuser

As I said, I dress differently in Germany than I dress in Egypt. And how I dress also depends on whether I go to work, shopping, visiting friends, a beach and so on.

I got two more questions for you

How do you think men and women should dress when they are in the beach?
Is modesty important on the beach? Are the quranic limits/laws important on the beach also?

unknownuser

OK, speaking of going to the park ... I'm wearing a long skirt and a tank top. I will see people dressed in all sorts of styles there, some will wear Jeans and a T-Shirt, some will wear a bikini (a minority though), there will be short and long dresses and pants and pretty much everything in between.

In my opinion, wearing a long skirt and a tank top can be a good choice of clothing in the summertime. And it is modest as well.

Have a good evening

nsws1988

I got two more questions for you

How do you think men and women should dress when they are in the beach?
Is modesty important on the beach? Are the quranic limits/laws important on the beach also?

Modesty is important in the beach too. Dress code may be not as stricter as if you wear something at the beach it might not get any attention but it would get some attention if you wear it on the street.

unknownuser

Peace nsws )

Thanks for your reply. I agree that dress code can be more relaxed on the beach. How do you think men and women should dress when they are in the beach?

unknownuser

how about those tribal women who don't wear any tops at all? It is perfectly modest for them not to wear any top, isn't it?

unknownuser

how about those tribal women who don't wear any tops at all? It is perfectly modest for them not to wear any top, isn't it?

Peace RasulHamsa )

Good question. Since they do not follow islam based on quran (they have another religion), they do not have to follow the same duties as muslims. But that does not mean that what they are doing is right or modest.

unknownuser

I think modesty is relative, like the modesty of beach is different than the modesty of street or perhaps work place? and I think if in any culture where not wearing a top is perfectly modest is perfectly fine with God too?

unknownuser

If something is wrong, is it not wrong everywhere? So if something is immodest, is it not immodest everywhere?
Then again we can say that if a man has a very relaxed dress code in front of his wife, then that would not be immodest.
But if he has a very relaxed dress code in front of other women than his wife, then that would be immodest.
So I agree that immodesty can be relative. But is immodesty always relative? For example the Quran tells women to
cover their breasts. Does it mean that this law should not be followed when a woman is on the beach?

The reason I am asking these questions is to find the right answers. I think philosophy is very interesting.

unknownuser

Peace all

I got some questions.

Is the clothing of the persons in the pictures below modest?

http//www.newsgroper.com/files/post_images/6_3_michael_phelps.bmp
http//static.thehollywoodgossip.com/images/gallery/denise-richards-bikini-photo_231x309.jpg

Keep in mind that I am not saying their clothes are modest or immodest.

CavemanDoctor

If something is wrong, is it not wrong everywhere? So if something is immodest, is it not immodest everywhere?
Then again we can say that if a man has a very relaxed dress code in front of his wife, then that would not be immodest.
But if he has a very relaxed dress code in front of other women than his wife, then that would be immodest.
So I agree that immodesty can be relative. But is immodesty always relative? For example the Quran tells women to
cover their breasts. Does it mean that this law should not be followed when a woman is on the beach?

The reason I am asking these questions is to find the right answers. I think philosophy is very interesting.

Imo, modesty should be defined by the dictates of the time/locale in discussion. So, while modesty is required "everywhere," the details of what modesty entails vary. It's a qualified relativism.

unknownuser

Imo, modesty should be defined by the dictates of the time/locale in discussion. So, while modesty is required "everywhere," the details of what modesty entails vary. It's a qualified relativism.

exactly!

unknownuser

Imo, modesty should be defined by the dictates of the time/locale in discussion. So, while modesty is required "everywhere," the details of what modesty entails vary. It's a qualified relativism.

Peace CavemanDoctor,

Thank you for your answer. But my first and second questions in the post, were rhetorical questions. Hence, i answered them myself. I tried to find the meaning of the concept "qualified relativism" on the internet but I could not find it. I think modesty should not only be defined by the dictates of time/locale in discussion, as this would go against these quranic verses 235-6 and 2431.

For example in the gym in the country I live in, it is very common that men shower naked in front of other men in the wardrobe of the gym, and that women shower naked in front of other women in the wardrobe of the gym. But if someone follows islam based on quran, he/she should not shower naked in front of other men or women in the gym wardrobe. Why? Because in verses 235-6 and verse 2431, we are told to guard our private parts, which means men should not show their private parts in a gym wardrobe to other men, and women should not show their private parts in a gym wardrobe to other women. Therefore, we can see from the above example that modesty is not defined by the dictates of locale in discussion.