Idribuhunna & Adriba Anhunna-to pull the wool over non Arabic speakers

Wakas

I have asked PLENTY of Arab linguists, Arab scholars, Quran scholars, Islamic scholars & ordinary graduates of Arabic from Saudi Arabia-all agree that this means beat or hit.

I did not ask what they thought it meant, I was referring to what it theoretically could be according to the Arabic, and theoretically it could mean "leave them" as there is a direct object there. See Lane's Lexicon.

The people I asked includes two apostates, one committed Muslim who's also very modern & liberal in his thinking, a regular ole Arabian Sunni-all say that if Muhammad had meant "leave them" the sentence would be grammatically very ill, to say the least.

Ahh, now we perhaps see an element of truth in your statement. "grammatically very ill" does not mean grammatically impossible.

I admire their honesty.

I also admire honesty, and that is why I gave the most accurate answer (to my knowledge), whereas you gave a "one side of the coin" answer (albeit the most common) and kept quiet about the other side. This is misleading at best, and dishonesty at worst.

If you disagree, simply state clearly for all to see, something like "It is impossible according to the Arabic for it to mean "leave them", please see reference ABC, or because of the grammatical rules of XYZ".

Replacing ABC/XYZ with actual references/information however ;D

To be honest, it makes no difference to me, as my study resulted in only one possible answer, and "leave them" wasn't it.

huruf

Darling, Fawzia, you didn't show anything at all, you merely stated that you understood one expressi?n meant something and the other not. Why you brought here that expression which does not appear in the Qur'an beats me. We are concerned, I think, with the one that appears in the Quran. Did anyone bring up the other expressi?n which is not in the Quran?

So you have not showed anything at all concerning the meaning of idribuhunna and we are not concerned either what meaning anybody wants to give it, but rather its meaning in the Quran, where the same verb appears repeatedly and here is no way that you could make it mean each and every time what you say it means, and which appears in a gramatical construction in the aya you pretend to illustrate with which you according to its appearance int he Quran you could hardly make it mean what you want it to mean. In fact you cannot find in the Quran a single occurrence of d-r-b where beat would be the most appropriate meaning. I find it weird indeed that would want it so much to mean beat.

Salaam

unknownuser

I have travelled in the Arabic speaking Middle East, also spoken to many who know Arabic extensively-all have frankly admitted that 434 says "beat".

However,Yusuf Ali embarrassed with beat added lightly after it & then people in modernity tried to use the root word & claim that it means to leave.

The majority of the world's Muslims are non Arabic speakers, & I know many who become Quranists in the desperate attempt to save their faith which in their own minds they have almost lost.

Thus, they're extremely keen to accept any translation which avoids jeopardizing their faith.

This is how beat has been used in the Quran.

Meaning To beat
Verse 8.50 Object Human Faces
If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces and their backs, (saying) "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire-

Transliteration Walaw tara ith yatawaffa allatheena kafaroo almala-ikatu yadriboona wujoohahum waadbarahum wathooqoo AAathaba alhareeqi

Qur'an 850
yadriboona wujoohahum literally meaning "hit their faces," which is translated by the Islamic site as "beat their faces."

Verse 47.27 Object Human Faces
But how (will it be) when the angels take their souls at death, and smite their faces and their backs? Fakayfa itha tawaffat-humu almala-ikatu yadriboona wujoohahum waadbarahum

Qur'an 4727
yadriboona wujoohahum literally meaning "hit their faces." Also translated correctly by the Islamic site, Just like the previous verses.

Comparing the two terms
Beat them and leave them are different phrases in Arabic. The arabic word idribohunna driven from the root word Darab does not have any other meaning than Beat when it comes to mean "Yadreb Ahadan" = Hit someone. Idriboohunna (&#1606 means beat them (for female plural). Adriboo Anhunna ( &#1606 is the one that means abandon or leave them. According to the Arabic lexicon.

Arabic Transliteration Meaning
Zarb Beat
(used in 434) Idriboohunna Beat them
Adriboo Anhunna abandon them, leave them

Quran 434 says Idriboohunna , not Adribu Anhunna . These two phrases have different meanings.

All the verses that contain darb against a human are understood to mean "beat" or "strike" that human, by their context and this is agreed upon.

So why didn't Muhammad &\or Allah\the Arabs write down Adribu anhunna?
Why are many of today's Muslims convincing themselves that a circle is a square because this verse as translated threatens their faith?

waiting for those who know Arabic to come up with innovative reasons & desperate Quranists to cling to any translation & interpretation which doesn't destroy their faith. laugh

peace Fawzia,

So do people think the guy actually hit the stone and there where twelve springs of water?

Or He actually took a stick to the sea?

It's the same concept hitting the missus - there is no hitting at all.

If you can grasp the above then you will indeed grasp the hitting concept of the DRB, irrespective of how people are taking it to be.

On the other hand, you are right, if understood as the translation stands in the modern day qurans it is ridiculously/ catastrophically wrong, the DRB concept. peace

260
And remember Moses prayed for water for his people; We said "Strike the rock with thy staff." Then gushed forth therefrom twelve springs. Each group knew its own place for water. So eat and drink of the sustenance provided by Allah, and do no evil nor mischief on the (face of the) earth.

2663
Then We told Moses by inspiration "Strike the sea with thy rod." So it divided, and each separate part became like the huge, firm mass of a mountain.

In the case of separating your beds, I wonder how many people actually sleep with the missus or they sleep in there own bunk separate? So how will they let the missus know they are separating there beds? Simply by making plain to her of their intentions- that is what the DRB is.

Idriboohunna making it apparent /visible/plain

All the verses that contain drab against a human mean "to make plain/visible/apparent"

peace

unknownuser

I admire their honesty.

Peace Fawzia, thank you for posting;
was having doubts (not pertaining to this topic) and you inspired my thinking, so the answer was given clearly.

So how will they let the missus know they are separating there beds? Simply by making plain to her of their intentions- that is what the DRB is.

Idriboohunna making it apparent /visible/plain

Peace simple -- Yes, exactly agree or in other words "and show them" thus as already stated...

waidriboohunna refers back to the example ?set forth? or given prior?
??and abandon them (waohjuroohunna) in the place of lying down??

Basically says "and show them (F)" or take an attitude of abandoning/ignoring them thus in the literal sense.

Wakas

Forgot to post the link, as mentioned above, in this thread www.Quran434.com

Completely refutes the traditional position.

Mazhar

Oh no huruf, darling, right at the beginning of my post, I showed how there're two words, Idriboohunna (&#1606 means beat them (for female plural). Adriboo Anhunna ( &#1606 is the one that means abandon or leave them, plus I gave ample examples, Allah has used Idriboohunna not Adriboo Anhunna. laugh

I don't throw tantrums, simply state bare truths, which seem unpleasant to you, well if you want to follow a Prophet who wanted to marry his daughter in law & so got a convenient revelation from Allah, who used the word for beating rather than the word for leaving, then do so! laugh

My arguments certainly aren't discredited, its your delusions & capacity for continuing self delusion which is exposed. laugh

Did you also ask those scholar as to what "waw" means?

nerspi

i'm sure most merciful people would not say violence is the answer, rather to solve it intelligently...
but what surprises me is that there's still people in the world who think that a Super Intelligent Being THE MOST MERCIFUL (more then any human) would recommend DOMESTIC VIOLENCE as a solution

guest

When discussing verse 434 the following assumption and/or pre-condition must be met

Allah is addressing the believers. Therefore, this law is for the believers only
Believers are righteous and conform to will of Allah i.e. no free will
This law does not apply to anyone other than the believers

Situation What is a believer to do when the wife has gone bad and causing havoc in the family? Please remember the family could have mature male and female children. Say the wife is doing drug, sex,?. in the presence of the children i.e. in the house when the husband is not there.

Say the husband decided to divorce her. Because he is a believer he has to comply with 2226 - Those who intend to divorce their wives shall wait four months (cooling off); if they change their minds and reconcile, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.

During this period the believing husband can beat the wife if she is exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex, etc. after other conditions in the verse are met. This makes sense. She can of course leave the husband to avoid beating and for the good of the family. Please remember that this privilege is granted to the believer only. This is similar to whipping a female in case of adultery. Also one would rightfully shoot a female soldier in a battlefield.

Everybody is not cutout to be a believer. Most people shun God?s law in favor of manmade law. Thus you will find many compromising Allah?s law by introducing different meaning that suits their desire. Be aware of them!

Peace.

Wakas

guest, your view is exposed on www.Quran434.com

I strongly recommend you read it.

unknownuser

When discussing verse 434 the following assumption and/or pre-condition must be met

Allah is addressing the believers. Therefore, this law is for the believers only
Believers are righteous and conform to will of Allah i.e. no free will
This law does not apply to anyone other than the believers
Anyone who agrees with it (i.e. definition of a believer)
All are free to "agree or disagree" with whatever circumstance
1 & 2

Situation What is a believer to do when the wife has gone bad and causing havoc in the family? Please remember the family could have mature male and female children. Say the wife is doing drug, sex,?. in the presence of the children i.e. in the house when the husband is not there.

Perhaps dysfunctional family should apply to go on Jerry Springer.

Say the husband decided to divorce her. Because he is a believer he has to comply with 2226 - Those who intend to divorce their wives shall wait four months (cooling off); if they change their minds and reconcile, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.

No, 2226 is about making careless oats ?
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=226

During this period the believing husband can beat the wife if she is exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex, etc. after other conditions in the verse are met. This makes sense. She can of course leave the husband to avoid beating and for the good of the family. Please remember that this privilege is granted to the believer only. This is similar to whipping a female in case of adultery. Also one would rightfully shoot a female soldier in a battlefield.

No, interpretation by insensitive narcissists who lack empathy especially toward women fantasying them all as prostitutes craving sex, drugs, and other fetishes with older children projecting their inner desire and are aroused by it.

Everybody is not cutout to be a believer. Most people shun God?s law in favor of manmade law. Thus you will find many compromising Allah?s law by introducing different meaning that suits their desire. Be aware of them!

Yes, the self righteous ?tell? is easy to spot.

Peace

guest

guest, your view is exposed on www.Quran434.com

I strongly recommend you read it.

Peace Wakas,

I went to your recommended website but found nothing of use. If you wish to comment on what I wrote, you are welcomed to do so. Thanks.

Wakas

peace guest,

Yes, I will choose to comment, to expose your completely made-up view more clearly

You seems to suggest exposing bad acts (e.g. illegal sex, drugs etc) to children in the family, even though the verse says nothing about children, thus tell us what is the situation for when a family has no children?

And does your punishment of beating still apply when there is children but the wife does not expose such acts to them, hence the use of "al gayb/unseen/private"?

Once you answer these, then we can see if your view is even more problematic, or not )

guest

peace guest,

Yes, I will choose to comment, to expose your completely made-up view more clearly

You seems to suggest exposing bad acts (e.g. illegal sex, drugs etc) to children in the family, even though the verse says nothing about children, thus tell us what is the situation for when a family has no children?

And does your punishment of beating still apply when there is children but the wife does not expose such acts to them, hence the use of "al gayb/unseen/private"?

Once you answer these, then we can see if your view is even more problematic, or not )

Peace Wakas,

Children or no children the punishment is the same for performing a bad conduct (ill-conduct). The consequence of not punishing implies a serious blow to the family, neighbors, and society in general. And remember that the punishment is inflicted by a believer, therefore, it will be just, fair, and compliant with Allah?s law. Also know that the bad situation can last at most 4 months.

We don?t have a law to deal with unseen event. In this case the judgment rest with Allah.

Mazhar

When discussing verse 434 the following assumption and/or pre-condition must be met

Allah is addressing the believers. Therefore, this law is for the believers only
Believers are righteous and conform to will of Allah i.e. no free will
This law does not apply to anyone other than the believers

Situation What is a believer to do when the wife has gone bad and causing havoc in the family? Please remember the family could have mature male and female children. Say the wife is doing drug, sex,?. in the presence of the children i.e. in the house when the husband is not there.

Say the husband decided to divorce her. Because he is a believer he has to comply with 2226 - Those who intend to divorce their wives shall wait four months (cooling off); if they change their minds and reconcile, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.

During this period the believing husband can beat the wife if she is exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex, etc. after other conditions in the verse are met. This makes sense.

The problem seems that without having properly read the verses, sense is being found on different hypothetical prepositions.

2226 has nothing to do with those husbands who have decided to divorce and wives shall wait for four months. It is for those married men who have taken an oath at their own not to have sex relations with their wives, their decision is being subjected to a time frame so that it is not left to their discretion not to have matrimonial relationship with wives for indefinite period. A conditionality of four months is imposed during which they have to either restore the relationship whereat he will find Allah forgiving, and if by imposition of time frame they have firmly decided to divorce their wives then in that case Allah is the listener and knower of even internal intentions and designs. Now the matter is to be adjudged on merit between two parties, without inclination of mercy for anyside.

Wakas

peace guest,

Thanks for answering, but you contradict yourself, so we will have to clarify again

Children or no children the punishment is the same for performing a bad conduct (ill-conduct).

is not compatible with

We don?t have a law to deal with unseen event. In this case the judgment rest with Allah.

Which one is it punish or leave judgement to Allah?

guest

peace guest,

Thanks for answering, but you contradict yourself, so we will have to clarify again

is not compatible with

Which one is it punish or leave judgement to Allah?

Peace Wakas,

If the husband walks in while she is committing ill-conduct or have eyewitness testimonies, then the punishment is imposed. Also, she could be committing the ill-conduct openly in front of her husband.

Otherwise the judgment rest with Allah.

Leyna

During this period the believing husband can beat the wife if she is exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex, etc. after other conditions in the verse are met. This makes sense.

What if it's the husband exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex etc.? Can she also beat him in this case? Does this make sense?

Wakas

peace guest,

If the husband walks in while she is committing ill-conduct or have eyewitness testimonies, then the punishment is imposed. Also, she could be committing the ill-conduct openly in front of her husband.

Otherwise the judgment rest with Allah.

Unfortunately your position contradicts The Quran. Firstly, it says "if you fear" NOT "if you see/prove" etc. It is a suspicion. Even though your view disregards the Arabic of Quran, we can also refute it another way

You seem to suggest the following
husband walks in and catches her in the act ---> administers punishment
has eyewitness testimonies ---> administers punishment

BUT the above would contradict The Quran's ruling. Taken from Quran434.com

If it is only the husband who fears disloyalty/uprising/infidelity, or even if he is sure of it, and if there are no witnesses/evidence, then he must follow the procedure in 246-9 and cannot take it upon himself to administer any punishment. Since a "fear/suspicion", as in 434, is certainly less than being sure, it also cannot warrant any punishment. Anything to the contrary would be an internal inconsistency in The Quran's ruling.
If we imagine a real life scenario in which a husband thinks his wife is guilty of disloyalty/infidelity and therefore undergoes the steps in 434, as traditionally understood, then before the wife is "hit/beat" she simply needs to say "let's go to court and apply 246-9 to your accusation" to which the husband would be dumbfounded as he is allegedly allowed to "beat" her yet according to 246-9 his accusation would be rejected by the court! Thus giving us the ridiculous situation of a wife being legally vindicated of her husband's accusation yet is still allowed to be punished by her husband! There is no escaping this obvious contradiction in the traditional understanding.

Thus, are you arguing that even though the Islamic/Quranic court rejects the husband's claim, he is still allowed to punish her?

guest

peace guest,
Unfortunately your position contradicts The Quran. Firstly, it says "if you fear" NOT "if you see/prove" etc. It is a suspicion. Even though your view disregards the Arabic of Quran, we can also refute it another way

You seem to suggest the following
husband walks in and catches her in the act ---> administers punishment
has eyewitness testimonies ---> administers punishment

BUT the above would contradict The Quran's ruling. Taken from Quran434.com

Thus, are you arguing that even though the Islamic/Quranic court rejects the husband's claim, he is still allowed to punish her?

Peace Wakas,

A condition, say X is satisfied by the women which leads to admonishment

The condition X is repeated by the women which leads to not sharing her bed

The condition X is repeated the third time by the women which leads to beating

Are you implying that there exist no such condition X. If this is the case then Quranic statement is redundant and thus Allah is at err.

guest

What if it's the husband exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex etc.? Can she also beat him in this case? Does this make sense?

Peace Leyna,

Please note that the husband is a believer and not just any husband.

Allah did not instruct women to beat her husband in this hypothetical case. The question is why such punishment does not exist in the Quran?

Maybe a male believer would never do such ill-conduct.

I believe a women believer would never do such ill-conduct either.

That leaves the case of a male believer married to non-believer women. I believe this is the case Allah is addressing in the verse.

A women believer is not authorized to marry a non-believer man. I haven't done extensive research on it but I think I am right. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thank you.