Idribuhunna & Adriba Anhunna-to pull the wool over non Arabic speakers
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Forgot to post the link, as mentioned above, in this thread www.Quran434.com
Completely refutes the traditional position.
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Oh no huruf, darling, right at the beginning of my post, I showed how there're two words, Idriboohunna (ن means beat them (for female plural). Adriboo Anhunna ( ن is the one that means abandon or leave them, plus I gave ample examples, Allah has used Idriboohunna not Adriboo Anhunna. laugh
I don't throw tantrums, simply state bare truths, which seem unpleasant to you, well if you want to follow a Prophet who wanted to marry his daughter in law & so got a convenient revelation from Allah, who used the word for beating rather than the word for leaving, then do so! laugh
My arguments certainly aren't discredited, its your delusions & capacity for continuing self delusion which is exposed. laugh
Did you also ask those scholar as to what "waw" means?
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i'm sure most merciful people would not say violence is the answer, rather to solve it intelligently...
but what surprises me is that there's still people in the world who think that a Super Intelligent Being THE MOST MERCIFUL (more then any human) would recommend DOMESTIC VIOLENCE as a solution -
When discussing verse 434 the following assumption and/or pre-condition must be met
- Allah is addressing the believers. Therefore, this law is for the believers only
- Believers are righteous and conform to will of Allah i.e. no free will
- This law does not apply to anyone other than the believers
Situation What is a believer to do when the wife has gone bad and causing havoc in the family? Please remember the family could have mature male and female children. Say the wife is doing drug, sex,?. in the presence of the children i.e. in the house when the husband is not there.
Say the husband decided to divorce her. Because he is a believer he has to comply with 2226 - Those who intend to divorce their wives shall wait four months (cooling off); if they change their minds and reconcile, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.
During this period the believing husband can beat the wife if she is exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex, etc. after other conditions in the verse are met. This makes sense. She can of course leave the husband to avoid beating and for the good of the family. Please remember that this privilege is granted to the believer only. This is similar to whipping a female in case of adultery. Also one would rightfully shoot a female soldier in a battlefield.
Everybody is not cutout to be a believer. Most people shun God?s law in favor of manmade law. Thus you will find many compromising Allah?s law by introducing different meaning that suits their desire. Be aware of them!
Peace.
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guest, your view is exposed on www.Quran434.com
I strongly recommend you read it.
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When discussing verse 434 the following assumption and/or pre-condition must be met
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Allah is addressing the believers. Therefore, this law is for the believers only
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Believers are righteous and conform to will of Allah i.e. no free will
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This law does not apply to anyone other than the believers
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Anyone who agrees with it (i.e. definition of a believer)
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All are free to "agree or disagree" with whatever circumstance
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1 & 2
Situation What is a believer to do when the wife has gone bad and causing havoc in the family? Please remember the family could have mature male and female children. Say the wife is doing drug, sex,?. in the presence of the children i.e. in the house when the husband is not there.
Perhaps dysfunctional family should apply to go on Jerry Springer.
Say the husband decided to divorce her. Because he is a believer he has to comply with 2226 - Those who intend to divorce their wives shall wait four months (cooling off); if they change their minds and reconcile, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.
No, 2226 is about making careless oats ?
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=226During this period the believing husband can beat the wife if she is exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex, etc. after other conditions in the verse are met. This makes sense. She can of course leave the husband to avoid beating and for the good of the family. Please remember that this privilege is granted to the believer only. This is similar to whipping a female in case of adultery. Also one would rightfully shoot a female soldier in a battlefield.
No, interpretation by insensitive narcissists who lack empathy especially toward women fantasying them all as prostitutes craving sex, drugs, and other fetishes with older children projecting their inner desire and are aroused by it.
Everybody is not cutout to be a believer. Most people shun God?s law in favor of manmade law. Thus you will find many compromising Allah?s law by introducing different meaning that suits their desire. Be aware of them!
Yes, the self righteous ?tell? is easy to spot.
Peace
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guest, your view is exposed on www.Quran434.com
I strongly recommend you read it.
Peace Wakas,
I went to your recommended website but found nothing of use. If you wish to comment on what I wrote, you are welcomed to do so. Thanks.
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peace guest,
Yes, I will choose to comment, to expose your completely made-up view more clearly
You seems to suggest exposing bad acts (e.g. illegal sex, drugs etc) to children in the family, even though the verse says nothing about children, thus tell us what is the situation for when a family has no children?
And does your punishment of beating still apply when there is children but the wife does not expose such acts to them, hence the use of "al gayb/unseen/private"?
Once you answer these, then we can see if your view is even more problematic, or not )
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peace guest,
Yes, I will choose to comment, to expose your completely made-up view more clearly
You seems to suggest exposing bad acts (e.g. illegal sex, drugs etc) to children in the family, even though the verse says nothing about children, thus tell us what is the situation for when a family has no children?
And does your punishment of beating still apply when there is children but the wife does not expose such acts to them, hence the use of "al gayb/unseen/private"?
Once you answer these, then we can see if your view is even more problematic, or not )
Peace Wakas,
Children or no children the punishment is the same for performing a bad conduct (ill-conduct). The consequence of not punishing implies a serious blow to the family, neighbors, and society in general. And remember that the punishment is inflicted by a believer, therefore, it will be just, fair, and compliant with Allah?s law. Also know that the bad situation can last at most 4 months.
We don?t have a law to deal with unseen event. In this case the judgment rest with Allah.
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When discussing verse 434 the following assumption and/or pre-condition must be met
- Allah is addressing the believers. Therefore, this law is for the believers only
- Believers are righteous and conform to will of Allah i.e. no free will
- This law does not apply to anyone other than the believers
Situation What is a believer to do when the wife has gone bad and causing havoc in the family? Please remember the family could have mature male and female children. Say the wife is doing drug, sex,?. in the presence of the children i.e. in the house when the husband is not there.
Say the husband decided to divorce her. Because he is a believer he has to comply with 2226 - Those who intend to divorce their wives shall wait four months (cooling off); if they change their minds and reconcile, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.
During this period the believing husband can beat the wife if she is exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex, etc. after other conditions in the verse are met. This makes sense.
The problem seems that without having properly read the verses, sense is being found on different hypothetical prepositions.
2226 has nothing to do with those husbands who have decided to divorce and wives shall wait for four months. It is for those married men who have taken an oath at their own not to have sex relations with their wives, their decision is being subjected to a time frame so that it is not left to their discretion not to have matrimonial relationship with wives for indefinite period. A conditionality of four months is imposed during which they have to either restore the relationship whereat he will find Allah forgiving, and if by imposition of time frame they have firmly decided to divorce their wives then in that case Allah is the listener and knower of even internal intentions and designs. Now the matter is to be adjudged on merit between two parties, without inclination of mercy for anyside.
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peace guest,
Thanks for answering, but you contradict yourself, so we will have to clarify again
Children or no children the punishment is the same for performing a bad conduct (ill-conduct).
is not compatible with
We don?t have a law to deal with unseen event. In this case the judgment rest with Allah.
Which one is it punish or leave judgement to Allah?
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peace guest,
Thanks for answering, but you contradict yourself, so we will have to clarify again
is not compatible with
Which one is it punish or leave judgement to Allah?
Peace Wakas,
If the husband walks in while she is committing ill-conduct or have eyewitness testimonies, then the punishment is imposed. Also, she could be committing the ill-conduct openly in front of her husband.
Otherwise the judgment rest with Allah.
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During this period the believing husband can beat the wife if she is exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex, etc. after other conditions in the verse are met. This makes sense.
What if it's the husband exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex etc.? Can she also beat him in this case? Does this make sense?
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peace guest,
If the husband walks in while she is committing ill-conduct or have eyewitness testimonies, then the punishment is imposed. Also, she could be committing the ill-conduct openly in front of her husband.
Otherwise the judgment rest with Allah.
Unfortunately your position contradicts The Quran. Firstly, it says "if you fear" NOT "if you see/prove" etc. It is a suspicion. Even though your view disregards the Arabic of Quran, we can also refute it another way
You seem to suggest the following
husband walks in and catches her in the act ---> administers punishment
has eyewitness testimonies ---> administers punishmentBUT the above would contradict The Quran's ruling. Taken from Quran434.com
If it is only the husband who fears disloyalty/uprising/infidelity, or even if he is sure of it, and if there are no witnesses/evidence, then he must follow the procedure in 246-9 and cannot take it upon himself to administer any punishment. Since a "fear/suspicion", as in 434, is certainly less than being sure, it also cannot warrant any punishment. Anything to the contrary would be an internal inconsistency in The Quran's ruling.
If we imagine a real life scenario in which a husband thinks his wife is guilty of disloyalty/infidelity and therefore undergoes the steps in 434, as traditionally understood, then before the wife is "hit/beat" she simply needs to say "let's go to court and apply 246-9 to your accusation" to which the husband would be dumbfounded as he is allegedly allowed to "beat" her yet according to 246-9 his accusation would be rejected by the court! Thus giving us the ridiculous situation of a wife being legally vindicated of her husband's accusation yet is still allowed to be punished by her husband! There is no escaping this obvious contradiction in the traditional understanding.Thus, are you arguing that even though the Islamic/Quranic court rejects the husband's claim, he is still allowed to punish her?
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peace guest,
Unfortunately your position contradicts The Quran. Firstly, it says "if you fear" NOT "if you see/prove" etc. It is a suspicion. Even though your view disregards the Arabic of Quran, we can also refute it another wayYou seem to suggest the following
husband walks in and catches her in the act ---> administers punishment
has eyewitness testimonies ---> administers punishmentBUT the above would contradict The Quran's ruling. Taken from Quran434.com
Thus, are you arguing that even though the Islamic/Quranic court rejects the husband's claim, he is still allowed to punish her?
Peace Wakas,
A condition, say X is satisfied by the women which leads to admonishment
The condition X is repeated by the women which leads to not sharing her bed
The condition X is repeated the third time by the women which leads to beating
Are you implying that there exist no such condition X. If this is the case then Quranic statement is redundant and thus Allah is at err.
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What if it's the husband exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex etc.? Can she also beat him in this case? Does this make sense?
Peace Leyna,
Please note that the husband is a believer and not just any husband.
Allah did not instruct women to beat her husband in this hypothetical case. The question is why such punishment does not exist in the Quran?
Maybe a male believer would never do such ill-conduct.
I believe a women believer would never do such ill-conduct either.
That leaves the case of a male believer married to non-believer women. I believe this is the case Allah is addressing in the verse.
A women believer is not authorized to marry a non-believer man. I haven't done extensive research on it but I think I am right. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thank you.
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peace guest,
X is NOT satisfied by the women. She may be doing X, she may not be, it is a fear of the husband NOT proven.
The Quran covers all situations, when bad acts are provable, and also unproven (434), and how we should go about it to resolve such a situation.
Please just answer my questions and dont evade
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Does it say "if you fear" yes or no?
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Are you arguing that even though the Islamic/Quranic court would reject the husband's claim, he is still allowed to punish her? yes or no?
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so he can beat her if he fears she may do whatever?
Her husband can beat her if he so much as fears she will commit whatever, lets say adultery, then that doesnt match the lashing for adultery or the 4 witnesses does it? Unless her husband can beat her for fearing she will do it, then 4 witnesses are needed if she did it and she gets a lashing too. They dont even bother with the witnesses these days so hubby gives her a pasting then she gets lashed and if shes in Iraq or any of the other 'oh so pious' countries she gets stoned to death as well?
I cant believe God hates women so much to be placing all this punishment on them for the husband/god just to do as he pleases, it doesnt match anything else in Quran.
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peace Ayisha,
You may be interested to know that it is likely early commentators or hadith reporters realised this problem, as it says "fear", thus attempted to provide a solution. I discuss this at Quran434.com
For example, what is rarely mentioned is that the few hadith that allegedly refer to 434 discuss a "clear/evident indecency", which is a likely attempt to supplant AQ's scenario. Further, some early jurists (including the infamous Shafi, and the alleged ibn Abbas) took it as a symbolic hitting (i.e. no pain), which is a likely attempt to circumvent the problems you pointed out.
Thus, ironically, Traditional Muslims who uphold hit/beat actually not only go against The Quran, but some of the biggest "scholars" in Traditional Islam.
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peace guest,
X is NOT satisfied by the women. She may be doing X, she may not be, it is a fear of the husband NOT proven.
The Quran covers all situations, when bad acts are provable, and also unproven (434), and how we should go about it to resolve such a situation.
Please just answer my questions and dont evade
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Does it say "if you fear" yes or no?
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Are you arguing that even though the Islamic/Quranic court would reject the husband's claim, he is still allowed to punish her? yes or no?
Peace Wakas,
Before you can ask someone to give a ?yes? or a ?no? answer YOU must define the problem i.e. you should have defined what fear is. For example
Definition 1 - a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined;
Definition 2 - Fear is an unpleasant feeling of perceived risk or danger, real or not.
If you think it is an imagined threat then it does not make sense. And it would be wrong to imply that God meant that.
If you take the threat to be a real threat then the answer is yes because it make sense. Please note some people have translated it as ?experience? or ?see?.
There is no Quranic court involved here. It says if YOU and not some one else.
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