I need help on a debate.

unknownuser

Well if angels don't visit houses with dogs or pictures, then does that mean you can do any wrongdoing? Will the little pug scare away the Kiraman Katibin leaving you free to eat a bacon sarnie seeing as it won't be recorded?

tempt

Whoever thought up that one was really careless.

may be you didn?t pay attention, but as I said before its not about kiraman katibin but only the ?angels of mercy? as I have heard.

Sirius

may be you didnt pay attention, but as I said before its not about kiraman katibin but only the angels of mercy as I have heard.

...propound...

P.s. I didn't read the replies before I posted. Sorry Master &

No need to elaborate. IslamQA to the rescue. I stand corrected.

With regard to these angels who do not enter a house in which there is a dog or an image, they are the angels who go round with mercy, blessings and prayers for forgiveness. With regard to the recording angels, they enter every house and never leave the sons of Adam under any circumstances, because they are enjoined to list and record their deeds.

unknownuser

...propound...

P.s. I didn't read the replies before I posted. Sorry Master &

but I just read the hadith it doesn?t mention ?angels of mercy? it says angels ;D

Ayisha

Ayisha indeed I did read your post on the discrepancies of the number of wives, and I found in the all the hadith books/excerpts from one website, the numbers were all the same (seventy), tbh I think someone noticed the gross mistake and just fixed it to a constant number.

here you go nafi

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 74i

Narrated Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle said, "Once Solomon, son of David said, '(By Allah) Tonight I will have sexual intercourse with one hundred (or ninety-nine) women each of whom will give birth to a knight who will fight in Allah's Cause.' On that a (i.e. if Allah wills) but he did not say, 'Allah willing.' Therefore only one of those women conceived and gave birth to a half-man. By Him in Whose Hands Muhammad's life is, if he had said, "Allah willing', (he would have begotten sons) all of whom would have been knights striving in Allah's Cause."
http//www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.074i

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 635

Narrated Abu Huraira

The Prophet said, "Solomon (the son of) David said, 'Tonight I will sleep with seventy ladies each of whom will conceive a child who will be a knight fighting for "Allah's Cause.' His companion said, 'If Allah will.' But Solomon did not say so; therefore none of those women got pregnant except one who gave birth to a half child." The Prophet further said, "If the Prophet Solomon had said it (i.e. 'If Allah will&#039 he would have begotten children who would have fought in Allah's Cause." Shuaib and Ibn Abi Az-Zinad said, "Ninety (women) is more correct (than seventy)."
http//www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/055.sbt.html#004.055.632

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 169

Narrated Abu Huraira

(The Prophet) Solomon son of (the Prophet) David said, "Tonight I will go round (i.e. have sexual relations with) one hundred women (my wives) everyone of whom will deliver a male child who will fight in Allah's Cause." On that an Angel said to him, "Say 'If Allah will.' " But Solomon did not say it and forgot to say it. Then he had sexual relations with them but none of them delivered any child except one who delivered a half person. The Prophet said, "If Solomon had said 'If Allah will,' Allah would have fulfilled his (above) desire and that saying would have made him more hopeful."
http//www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.169

Volume 8, Book 78, Number 634

Narrated Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle said, "(The Prophet) Solomon once said, 'Tonight I will sleep with ninety women, each of whom will bring forth a (would-be) cavalier who will fight in Allah's Cause." On this, his companion said to him, "Say Allah willing!" But he did not say Allah willing. Solomon then slept with all the women, but none of them became pregnant but one woman who later delivered a half-man. By Him in Whose Hand Muhammad's soul is, if he (Solomon) had said, 'Allah willing' (all his wives would have brought forth boys) and they would have fought in Allah's Cause as cavaliers. "
http//www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/078.sbt.html#008.078.634

Volume 8, Book 79, Number 711

Narrated Abu Huraira

(The Prophet) Solomon said, "Tonight I will sleep with (my) ninety wives, each of whom will get a male child who will fight for Allah's Cause." On that, his companion (Sufyan said that his companion was an angel) said to him, "Say, "If Allah will (Allah willing)." But Solomon forgot (to say it). He slept with all his wives, but none of the women gave birth to a child, except one who gave birth to a halfboy. Abu Huraira added The Prophet said, "If Solomon had said, "If Allah will" (Allah willing), he would not have been unsuccessful in his action, and would have attained what he had desired." Once Abu Huraira added Allah apostle said, "If he had accepted."
http//www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/079.sbt.html#008.079.711

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 561

Narrated Abu Huraira

Allah's Prophet Solomon who had sixty wives, once said, "Tonight I will have sexual relation (sleep) with all my wives so that each of them will become pregnant and bring forth (a boy who will grow into) a cavalier and will fight in Allah's Cause." So he slept with his wives and none of them (conceived and) delivered (a child) except one who brought a half (body) boy (deformed). Allah's Prophet said, "If Solomon had said; 'If Allah Will,' then each of those women would have delivered a (would-be) cavalier to fight in Allah's Cause." (See Hadith No. 74 A, Vol. 4).
http//www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/093.sbt.html#009.093.561

;D

Ayisha

...propound...

P.s. I didn't read the replies before I posted. Sorry Master &

No need to elaborate. IslamQA to the rescue. I stand corrected.

With regard to these angels who do not enter a house in which there is a dog or an image, they are the angels who go round with mercy, blessings and prayers for forgiveness. With regard to the recording angels, they enter every house and never leave the sons of Adam under any circumstances, because they are enjoined to list and record their deeds.

so they do go to the toilet with us then? I thought none went to the toilet with us and stayed outside, hence reciting something when we go so the devil wont get us while we are unprotected by the angels of whatever. Now you islam qa have confirmed there will be angels writing my 'deeds' of the bathroom? &

Sirius

so they do go to the toilet with us then? I thought none went to the toilet with us and stayed outside, hence reciting something when we go so the devil wont get us while we are unprotected by the angels of whatever. Now you islam qa have confirmed there will be angels writing my 'deeds' of the bathroom? &

It's only a bathroom in your mind (unless you have a door sign of course). I would say just keep the door open but the forcefield between the threshold said to be indefinitely impermeable.

unknownuser

so they do go to the toilet with us then? I thought none went to the toilet with us and stayed outside, hence reciting something when we go so the devil wont get us while we are unprotected by the angels of whatever. Now you islam qa have confirmed there will be angels writing my 'deeds' of the bathroom? &

they also watch you with your husband and when you refuse your husband they curse you till dawn!

Raaajah

It is quite amusing seeing people discussing Hadith, the people who cannot understand straight forward arabic of Quran and have 100's of interpretations are discussing Hadith, through root words,

Allah Ho Akbar.

Leyna

I am confused now ... there seem to be different breeds of angels. Some enter the house when I have dogs and pictures, some don't. hypno

So we have

~ al Khattaabi, the "recording angels" who are constantly around me with their little notepads. They don't mind if I have pictures on the wall or a dog. Why? Because they are so busy writing down my good and bad deeds that they won't notice anyway? Or maybe they like being around pictures and dogs?

~ the "angels of mercy" who "go around with mercy, blessings and prayers for forgiveness". They won't enter my house when I have pictures or dogs. Why? Are they afraid of dogs? Don't they like pictures? And if they are indeed angels of mercy, why are they being so finicky in regards to silly things such as pictures and dogs?

This is all very fascinating and confusing!

I wonder how all those great scholars found out about this. Did they actually interview the angels or what? How do they know about the different kinds of angels and their preferences?

http//www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=5153 http//www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=5147 http//www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=5184 http//www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=5132 http//www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=5158

AlFajr

Basically I need some clear unbiased arguments (moderate) against a sunni hujjur.

His statements as such.

1/ The sahih hadith are infallible

2/ Hadith such as 'angels wont visit houses with dogs and pictures' are true

3/ The Quran tells us to follow the sunnah explicitly and uses the actual word sunnah

4/ The method of preservation of the Quran is the same as hadith

5/ hadith represents wahy (second revelation alongside Quran)

Well the burden of proof is on him. Since he is claiming something to be true, he needs to bring evidence to support that.

2875 And We will extract from every nation a witness, then We will say "Bring forth your proof." They will then realize that all truth belongs with God, and what they had invented will abandon them.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

unknownuser

Basically I need some clear unbiased arguments (moderate) against a sunni hujjur.

His statements as such.

1/ The sahih hadith are infallible

2/ Hadith such as 'angels wont visit houses with dogs and pictures' are true

Peace -- in any debate only need to show a clear contradiction.

Most were carrying coins with pictures 100+ years before hadith...

http//users.rcn.com/j-roberts/1x.jpg

Arab-Sassanians
'Umar b. 'Ubaydallah b. Mi'mar
Governor of Fars (686-89 AD)
Ardashir-Khurra mint, 69 AH
Dirham, silver, 30 mm

Hadith - Muslim, narrated Maymunah
One morning Allah's Messenger was silent with grief. Maymunah said Allah's Messenger, I find a change in your mood today. Allah's Messenger saidGabriel had promised me that he would meet me last night, but he did not meet me. By Allah, he never broke his promises; and Allah's Messenger spent the day in this sad (mood). Then it occurred to him that there had been a puppy under their cot. He gave an order and it was turned out. He then took some water in his hand and sprinkled it on the place. When it was evening Gabriel met him and he said to him You promised me that you would meet me the previous night. He said Yes, but we do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture. So the very next morning he commanded the dogs to be killed. He announced that the dog kept for the orchards should also be killed, but he spared the dog used for the protection of extensive fields (or big gardens).

Likewise, the sleepers in the cave along with their dog being cared for...

1818
And We turned them
wanuqallibuhum

to
dhta

the right
l-yamni

and to
wadhta

the left,
l-shimli

while their dog
wakalbuhum

stretched
bsiun

his two forelegs
dhirayhi

at the entrance.
bil-wadi

Edip_Yuksel

Basically I need some clear unbiased arguments (moderate) against a sunni hujjur.

His statements as such.

1/ The sahih hadith are infallible

2/ Hadith such as 'angels wont visit houses with dogs and pictures' are true

3/ The Quran tells us to follow the sunnah explicitly and uses the actual word sunnah

4/ The method of preservation of the Quran is the same as hadith

5/ hadith represents wahy (second revelation alongside Quran)

Dear Nafi, since I have given long and serious answers to these and other sunni assertions in my books, especially in Manifesto for Islamic Reform, I will give you my short and funny answers

Yes, sahih hadith are infallible as well as the sahih goat that ate the "verse" abrogating the stoning-to-death literally but not legally. Also, the sahih Pope is infallible. But, personally I do not like his sense of fashion.
Hadith about angels being scared from dogs and pictures is true too, and since I heard about this sahih hadith, I am enjoying every sin in my house; the angles who used to record my sins are now scared of entering my house. Thanks to my dogs and grandma's pictures.
Yes, indeed the Quran uses the actual word sunna explicitly. Though the word Sunna is always used as Sunnat ul-Allah (God's Laws), the word sunan, the plural of sunna, with the exception of one case, is always used to depict the divine law punishing the transgressors, can one billion Muslims and their mullahs be wrong?
Of course, the Sunni quran is preserved like hadith. Therefore we have a quran narrated by Bukhari, and another quran with different number of verses from Ibn Hanbal, and many other versions. Furthermore, each version contains various categories of verses according to their authenticity, which is always a subject of disagreement among various scholars. For instance the sunni quran contains ahadi verses, mursal verses, hasan verses, mawdu verses, mutawatir verses and many more kinds of verses.
Indeed HADITH is WAHY. Read verses 6112-116. (The word WAHY is mentioned in verse 112).

Ayisha

Dear Nafi, since I have given long and serious answers to these and other sunni assertions in my books, especially in Manifesto for Islamic Reform, I will give you my short and funny answers

Yes, sahih hadith are infallible as well as the sahih goat that ate the "verse" abrogating the stoning-to-death literally but not legally. Also, the sahih Pope is infallible. But, personally I do not like his sense of fashion.
Hadith about angels being scared from dogs and pictures is true too, and since I heard about this sahih hadith, I am enjoying every sin in my house; the angles who used to record my sins are now scared of entering my house. Thanks to my dogs and grandma's pictures.
Yes, indeed the Quran uses the actual word sunna explicitly. Though the word Sunna is always used as Sunnat ul-Allah (God's Laws), the word sunan, the plural of sunna, with the exception of one case, is always used to depict the divine law punishing the transgressors, can one billion Muslims and their mullahs be wrong?
Of course, the Sunni quran is preserved like hadith. Therefore we have a quran narrated by Bukhari, and another quran with different number of verses from Ibn Hanbal, and many other versions. Furthermore, each version contains various categories of verses according to their authenticity, which is always a subject of disagreement among various scholars. For instance the sunni quran contains ahadi verses, mursal verses, hasan verses, mawdu verses, mutawatir verses and many more kinds of verses.
Indeed HADITH is WAHY. Read verses 6112-116. (The word WAHY is mentioned in verse 112).

Loved number 2 bravo

Can you highlight that word wahy in here for me please coz I cant find it?

Wakathalika jaAAalna likullinabiyyin AAaduwwan shayateena al-insi waaljinni yooheebaAAduhum ila baAAdin zukhrufa alqawlighurooran walaw shaa rabbuka ma faAAaloohu fatharhumwama yaftaroona

Wakas

peace Nun,

Excellent point with the coins. That is true, some of the coins they used and minted themselves did have pictures on them. This exposes a critical flaw in the so-called "mercy angels will not enter houses" myth. I assume their only argument would be they all kept their coins outside of the house!

unknownuser

Loved number 2 bravo

Can you highlight that word wahy in here for me please coz I cant find it?

Wakathalika jaAAalna likullinabiyyin AAaduwwan shayateena al-insi waaljinni yoohee baAAduhum ila baAAdin zukhrufa alqawlighurooran walaw shaa rabbuka ma faAAaloohu fatharhumwama yaftaroona

yoohee

Ayisha

yoohee

thanks RH handshake