Jilbab [Quran 33:59]
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Ayisha
Seems you have a problem with Mazhar's posts and have a go at me for it.
Ok, may be it was mixed up.
I was refering to your this post
I agree that the 2 parts are what are called 'private parts' and should be covered
hmmm, so it is Mazhar again hmm
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Qurban jaon aapke urdu se
flattered!
a kiss from me too.
i don't f*ing think so! yuck
laugh
nahiN khhel ai daaGh yaaroN se kehdo
ke aati hai Urdu zabaaN aate aatesry rasulhamsa, my urdu is not enough to make proper sense of this.. daagh? hmm
other than that i see we are back to repetitive arguments and chicks in bikinis.. how very predictable. )
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sry rasulhamsa, my urdu is not enough to make proper sense of this.. daagh? hmm
daagh is the name of poet. ask your hubby to translate it forya well all it means is, learning urdu is not a joke, it takes time. )
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Mazhar
So you mean to say that before this Ayat the ladies were wearing Skirts? or roaming with open bossoms? that is why they were told to lengthen their garments from shoulders down ward? that is not logical, that makes no sense,
ACTUALLY, if you do look at many commentators (and at Muhammad Asad's footnotes on the issue), women WERE roaming around with their breasts exposed ... that is why covering the bosoms is explicitly stated in the verse.
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Initiater of the thread
OK, people, I'm kinda confused here. We know that there's no mandatory clothing article required to be worn by women.. but then what is the "Jilbab" .....
herbman
is this debate about what is a JILBAB?
Please use your brain.Yes! we should use the BRAINS.
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aynur
ACTUALLY, if you do look at many commentators (and at Muhammad Asad's footnotes on the issue), women WERE roaming around with their breasts exposed ... that is why covering the bosoms is explicitly stated in the verse
That makes things further difficult for those who think that, quran has ordered to cover only two parts, or only two parts are private parts.
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aynur
That makes things further difficult for those who think that, quran has ordered to cover only two parts, or only two parts are private parts.do you totally misunderstand or twist things out of some perverse pleasure or do you do this normally with everything? ??? Is it a language problem?
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As salaamu aleykum
After a long time studying about the subject..
To understand my opinion ,please first have a look to this video ;even you may not like the content
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z_HbdrJvCc&feature=share&list=FLFe-rRWPCNZgpAj851L_QUA
I think that the recommended jilbab in the Quraan must be a cloack,a hooded one..that would explain a lot of mistakes.
Love and blessings for all the seekers of truth !
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Peace,
I don't understand why some people say women must cover everything with dracula cloak except face, hands. Of course most of them are Sunnis, Shias and other "Muslim" sectarians.
Their stupid excuses and apologies are "Hijab is the sign of modesty", "Veiling is to prevent women from rape", "Veil and niqab / burqa / purdah are to honor women". Oh my God! Really? Men want to rape women because of their hair, head, neck, ears and even faces? What the hell. This is so stupid. Head-covering and the prison-like clothes are to honor women? So hair, neck, ears, head and even face of women are signs of dishonor and immodesty? They are awrat ? Awrat means nakednesses / private parts / shames. It is really sexist to equate women's hair, heads, necks, ears and even faces to nakedness.Jilbab means outer garment. Outer garment can be blouses, coats, cloaks.
As a girl and a young lady, I admit and agree that a woman must cover her private parts, breasts; not to show other attractive body parts and shapes such as belly, hips, tighs, navel, back body and; must not wear tight clothes that makes a women look sl*tty and cheap. I must say that a female human, especially a pubescent lady has more 'vulgar' attractions than a man that must be covered to look modest and descend.
However, covering all parts of the body and obliging people to cover their hair / head, necks, ears for the sake of 'modesty' are outrageous and too much.
Regards,
Yuliana -
Peace,
Here is an hypothesis I will try to develop if God wills, and I hope you can help to support or reject this idea
I seek refuge in God against Satan the banished.
In 3359 we read the following
O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad) that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Dal-Nun-Waw (Dal-Nun-Alif) = To be near, come near or low, let down, be akin to.
JALABIB root is JIM-LAM-BA
Also JALIB means the he helped, he assistedAlso PR-Online take the root Jiim-Lam-Ba-Ba = Woman's outer wrapping garment, that which envelopes the whole body, wide garment for a woman, dominion or sovereignty or rule
The whole idea of the verse is to protect the women which are the weakest to be protected from offenses from offenders.
How to protect them? They have to be known, by the offenders.
Once they are known they will be no more offended.
The question is does a piece of tissue protect you against the offenders? Knowing that everyone in these time, men and women were covering their heads and body against sun.The problem is to find the correct meaning of a word which has no other reference in Qur?an, the only occurance we can find is with the root JLB.
Jiim-Lam-Ba = To drive/bring/convey/transport, to draw/attract/procure a thing, gain or earn, seek after or seek to gain, to raise cries/shouts/noises, chide or urge on, to threaten, bring together/assemble/gather/collect, commit a crime or offence, to heal, to help/aid or assist, take or borrow, to seek or demand, to cover or clad oneself.
This occurrence can be found in 1764 and means to assemble/collect/put together
In Lane?s we find JLBB under JLB and means garnement.
SO let?s take the origine of the word to try to understand the context and meaning.
The first meaning is to drive, bring one thing from one country to another or from one town to another. That supports the idea of migrating from one town to another.
-Also in Kazimirski (arabic-french) dictionnar Jilbab is translated as SLAVE
So back in the context
By 9100 to 9103 we know some believers moved to Medina, they were the first and therefore a minority in a new town.
Some people from Medina were hypocrites and were therefore offending the minority.
At that time and still now in some countries/town when you are a stranger you are an easy victim for thieves/ aggressors/ offenders etc and that is why GOD promised to the offenders to be killed if they continue in their behaviors.In conclusion
My idea here is that JALABIB does not mean a piece of tissue/ garnment to protect you from the offenders but a PERSON who can help you, defend you from offenders in a foreign town and who is well known by the citizen of that town so the immigrant are safe with him.
So the verse should look like
O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should come near/ be near/get closer/ in group from the jilbab (assistant/helper/guide of the town) So these who offend know you and therefore will not offend you and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful
This is an hypothesis and I am looking forward for yours comment to support or reject this idea.
Peace
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As salaamu aleykum
Thanks for the interesting supply
Altough I could not find me completely in this hypothetic answer/question
If i look the whole surah,then I found in 3353
..speak with them from behind a "screen" that is more pure for your heart and their hearts..
and 3355
There is no blame (on these ladies if they appear) before their fathers or their sons, their brothers, or their brother's sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the (slaves) whom their right hands possess. And, (ladies), fear Allah; for Allah is Witness to all things.
Alsook soerah an nour 2460
Pickthall
As for women past child-bearing, who have no hope of marriage, it is no sin for them if they discard their (outer) clothing in such a way as not to show adornment. But to refrain is better for them. Allah is Hearer, Knower.Yusuf Ali
Such elderly women as are past the prospect of marriage,- there is no blame on them if they lay aside their (outer) garments, provided they make not a wanton display of their beauty but it is best for them to be modest and Allah is One Who sees and knows all things.There is no blame..it means that there is a blame when they lay aside their outer garment when they are in other cases than described by God.
If this surah was revealed and written with importance in the Quran..it is an obligation for all who believe in the Quran and the words of Allah to keep their outer garments like explained in the Quran..
What is this outher clothing is an other question.
Like in soerah al ahzaab it could be a protection against of evil desire of adultery
If a "gard" or "protector" was given by God,it would be in the first place the husband and not an other "guy"..because in surah al ahzab 3355 (ask them from behind a screen !!!!!!) no strange man can talk or see freely the wives of our beloved prophet Mohammed sallalahu aleyhi wa salaam
And soerah al ahzab 3359 is also a command for the woman of the believers.
But God knows best and forgive me if I make mistakes while learning
Audhu bilehi minna sjataanir rajiem
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Whatever was commanded in 33.59, it cannot be considered ouside the very circumstances in which and because of which it was commanded. Believers were being the object of hostility and attacks from hypocrites. It is to protect themselves from those hypocrites that women were to do whatever they were told to do. But that is not supposed to be the ordinary situation of believers amongst themselves, nor of any society in which there is no all out open hostility. They had to be known so that hypocrites could not claim that they attacked them because they did not know who they were. In the next ayas it is stated what awaits the hypocrites if they do not cease in their hostility. Once the hypocrites pose no danger there is no need to do whatever they had to do in those circumstances.
It is too much of a joke that pretexting that the hypocrites in times of revelation posed a danger to believers and to the women believers that women are forced today to dress in any particular way, precisely amongst believers, when those who are nto supposed to be believers pose no danger and they believing women should dress in a certain way precisely to protect themselves of the believers. In that case it is obvious that those purported believers are not such and not only that that they are not deterred by any kind of clothing whatsoever. So that in fact Quranic injonctions are being twiested to the end of tyranising and oppresing believing women.
Salaam
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Salam,
I totally agree with Huruf, and when you read the entire sura and keep the context in mind you understand very well what was going on, please read from verse 3350 and you see the context is about The prophete and his wives, also v3353 appears to me to be allegorical (hijab) unless you do like Talibans and ask all women to wear burka!!!!
asking something behind the hijab means asking something with distance or/ with a barrier between the one who ask and the other.
example when you buy bread at the baker do not make familiarities with the baker women do you understand my point
peace
ps remember The Quran is to be adressed to civilised people (the one's who zakkah)!
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As salaamu aleykum
Thanks for the intresting reaction and the effort
What about 2460?
Do we have to see this as outside the circumstances that
"woman who are past child bearing don't have sin to take out this outer garment but better to refrain of it"
It means there is a sin if the believing woman who believe in the words of God and they are not yet past child bearing ,take out there outer garments.
What is this outer garment?
Bismillah
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peace herbman, all,
I find your alternative understanding of 3359 to be very weak and simply unnecessary.
You said
The question is does a piece of tissue protect you against the offenders? Knowing that everyone in these time, men and women were covering their heads and body against sun.
I think you have misunderstood the verse. Firstly, the verse does not state nor imply that a garment will protect those in question. It discusses a modification to the garment being worn.
Secondly, even if everyone is covering their head and body against the sun this may or may not be relevant. One would have to prove they do so in the manner in the common understanding of 3359 thus rendering the common understanding inconsequential.You said
O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should come near/ be near/get closer/ in group from the jilbab (assistant/helper/guide of the town) So these who offend know you and therefore will not offend you and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful
I'm afraid your rendering does not fit with the Arabic, i.e. yudneena AAalayhinna min jalabeebihinna
Thus, your understanding would be they should come near/be near/get closer over them(f) (in group) from their(f) assistants/helpers/guides (of the town)You said
The prophete and his wives, also v3353 appears to me to be allegorical (hijab) unless you do like Talibans and ask all women to wear burka!!!!
Not only is this not what the verse says but this is not necessarily so, as you say later
asking something behind the hijab means asking something with distance or/ with a barrier between the one who ask and the other.
Why allegorical when there are plausible physical barriers, e.g. distance, screen, seclusion (i.e. not in same room) etc.
There are also several assumptions in your view, which are simply not necessary. Thus, I have to ask what is the exact problem you have with the following understanding, which is a slightly modified understanding of the common one
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm
By "problem" I mean something which can be proven to be illogical/contradictory/impractical.
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As salaamu aleykum
Thanks for the intresting reaction and the effort
What about 2460?
Do we have to see this as outside the circumstances that
"woman who are past child bearing don't have sin to take out this outer garment but better to refrain of it"
It means there is a sin if the believing woman who believe in the words of God and they are not yet past child bearing ,take out there outer garments.
What is this outer garment?
Bismillah
Of course it does not mean that at all. You would want the aya to mean that, but what it means it does say. You do not need to interpret anything. And there is no connection between aya 33.59 and 24.60. You jopin them in order to opress womenand yarmuhunna, as God forbid you to do in the Sura Nur.
There is no mention whatsoever of jilbab in 24.60. It says thiab, the translation says outergarmen, but ia dress is an outer garmentm, the inner garment is simply the undergarment.
but we know how male malecentric people try to turn everything upside down just to throw some new obligation on women. Why don't you just take care of your own virtue and stop acusing women, when ayas 9 to 23 of Sura An-Nur warn so eternly about maligning women and God damns those who accuse believing women for not being up their male fantasies.
Salaam
