At what time we should break the fast?
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The "Instant" wakas is recommending (soon after sun set) is a precise marker, and God uses this marker at few places in quran. Had he meant this time for us , HE would have surely used The term, "Ghoroubal Shams" but instead he uses Layal.
So in my opinion sounni's practice of ending fast soon after setting of the sun is incorrect, we should wait for the darkness to set in properly, only then we should terminate fast.
(shias take it a little deeper into night by waiting 15,20 mins, and IMO are closer to commanded)
siki
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The "Instant" wakas is recommending (soon after sun set) is a precise marker, and God uses this marker at few places in quran. Had he meant this time for us , HE would have surely used The term, "Ghoroubal Shams" but instead he uses Layal.
This is oft-repeated without evidence. "gh-r-b as shams" means setting of the sun, and gives no indication of what point in its setting, so it is not a precise marker at all.
It is quite easy to tell when night-time has begun, just by looking at the sky, e.g. look up and around, if no red/orange/yellow tinge to the light, then layl has begun. At this point, the sky tends to be darkish blue/grey. Alternatively, ask a child as they tend to have less bias.
So, from my view, traditionalists break their fast at the right time, but begin it at the wrong time, although many will acknowledge the way they do it is just for convenience for the call to the morning prayer at the mosques, but many think of it as the law.
Also, recently, I read, I think it was in 'verbal idioms of the quran' by mustansir mir that "white thread of dawn" is the line of light that you get that spans the horizon before sunrise, in morning twilight, which makes sense. Again, this matches perfectly with what I said, i.e. begin abstinence just before sunrise (end of layl), end abstinence just after sunset (start of layl).
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Have you heard about a term, "Dark night" ?
siki
1778 says "illa ghasaqi al layl", meaning "untill the darkness of the night". If night was the period of the day when it is totally dark, then it would just have said "illa al layl". There would have not been any need for "darkness/ghasaq".
Furthermore, there is daylight in part of the night
3637 A sign for them is the night, We remove the daylight from it, whereupon they are in darkness.
It is quite easy to tell when night-time has begun, just by looking at the sky, e.g. look up and around, if no red/orange/yellow tinge to the light, then layl has begun. At this point, the sky tends to be darkish blue/grey.
I think the easiest way/general rule is that if the sun is below the horizon, then night has started. If the sun is (at least partly) above the horizon, then night has ended. The fast/abstinence starts at the beginning of the day, which is dawn, but also a part of the night. Therefore it says "...when the white thread is distinct from the black thread of the night of/at/from dawn..." in 2187 to clarify when the fast/abstinence starts, since dawn is part of the night, but also part of the day.
Also, recently, I read, I think it was in 'verbal idioms of the quran' by mustansir mir that "white thread of dawn" is the line of light that you get that spans the horizon before sunrise, in morning twilight, which makes sense. Again, this matches perfectly with what I said, i.e. begin abstinence just before sunrise (end of layl), end abstinence just after sunset (start of layl).
This is also my view. Can you clarify what you mean with "just after sunset"?
Do you mean that as soon as the sun is below the horizon you break your fast or after that (eg. evening twilight, dusk, etc. )?
Remember that there is daylight in part of the night. -
Peace,
I think the easiest way/general rule is that if the sun is below the horizon, then night has started. If the sun is (at least partly) above the horizon, then night has ended.
I agree with your definition of night which is fully compliant with the God?s orders/statements in the Quran. However, I would recommend you to modify your definition just a bit to include ?the moment the trailing edge of the sun's disk disappears below the horizon? (start of night). In my view this removes minor ambiguity in your definition.
Dusk and twilight are part of night.
Your definition is consistent with the indirect sun light phenomenon as well (sun light reflected by our moon)
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Should we break fastig at sunset as all muslims do, or at the time when the stars show in the sky ;that could be the landmark of the start of night which is about 15 minutes after sunset?
PeacePeace,
Respectfully.2183 O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.
2184 A few number of days; however, if any of you is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it is better for you if only you knew.
2185 A month of aspiration, in which the Qur?an was revealed; as a guide to the people and clarities from the guidance and the Criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
2186 And if My servants ask you about Me, I am near answering the calls of those who call to Me. So let them respond to Me and believe in Me that they may be guided.
2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people who they may be righteous.Ask some sunnis what does maghrib mean and then ask what does layl mean and then look at the sky at the start of maghrib and also look at the sky when you can't tell the difference between the east and the west.
Peace.
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1778 says "illa ghasaqi al layl", meaning "untill the darkness of the night". If night was the period of the day when it is totally dark, then it would just have said "illa al layl". There would have not been any need for "darkness/ghasaq".
Furthermore, there is daylight in part of the night
If you see a night without moon or if the moon is obscured with clouds, night is dark, but when you have some moon, the night is not that dark, so you mean that moonlit nights cannot be called as night?
siki -
After deeply analysing all the verses, for God's definition of word LAYAL The following two verses tilted the balance, in favor of layal not starting at sunset (ghorubul shams )
6-76 When the night fell, he saw a shining planet. "Maybe this is my Lord," he said. When it disappeared, he said, "I do not like (gods) that disappear
15-65 "You shall take your family during the night. Stay behind them, and make sure that none of you looks back. Go straight as commanded
Had Moses phuh and his family tried to leave at or soon after sunset , they could have been seen escaping, and stopped.
siki
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why?
why not part of the day aswell.
siki
Peace siki,
Definition of day and night
Day = Sunrise to sunset
Night = Sunset to sunrise (the moment the sun goes below the horizon till the sun rise next morning). Absence of direct sunlight is night.
What is your definition of Day and Night?
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What is your definition of Day and Night?
Day--------sunrise to sunset
Night------ last light to first light
First light to sun rise, the overlapping period, Quran uses the term Fajar.
sunset to last light , the overlapping period , Quran uses the term Eishaa.Most importantly,
Ghorobul shams, (when the sun just goes below the horizon , and is no more visible) or Daluk ul shams, (when the sun touches the horizon for disappearance) are very precise markers, and have been used in quran at few places, Had HE intended ending fast at Ghourubal shams , HE would have used Ghourabal shams, rather than Layal.
Quranic layal does not start at Ghorubul shams, but Eisha does. And Eisha ends at last light and Layal starts.siki
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Day--------sunrise to sunset
Night------ last light to first light
First light to sun rise, the overlapping period, Quran uses the term Fajar.
sunset to last light , the overlapping period , Quran uses the term Eishaa.Most importantly,
Ghorobul shams, (when the sun just goes below the horizon , and is no more visible) or Daluk ul shams, (when the sun touches the horizon for disappearance) are very precise markers, and have been used in quran at few places, Had HE intended ending fast at Ghourubal shams , HE would have used Ghourabal shams, rather than Layal.
Quranic layal does not start at Ghorubul shams, but Eisha does. And Eisha ends at last light and Layal starts.siki
Peace siki,
And how do you determine the so called ?first light? and the ?last light?? Your definition is very subjective. It creates a chaotic system. And that is in direct contradiction to Allah?s system which is perfect and coherent and unites the believers. Simply put, your system divides the believers!
Please justify your statement ?Quranic layal does not start at Ghorubul shams? by showing us the Quranic verse that says Ghorobul shams is NOT part of a night.
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Salam Aleykum, greetings of peace!
Here are my thoughts and contributions. God Willing, Allah will guide us and Allah knows best.
If you were getting in your car to set off driving, would you put your headlights on? Not in broad daylight, but if it was dull you would.
Would you ask someone else "shall I put my headlights on?" No, you use your brain and just do it.
If you were sitting reading in your living room in broad daylight, would you switch on the light and shut your living room curtains? No, but you would if it was dull. You don't ask "is it time to put the light on and shut the curtains?" You just think for yourself and do it.
Can we use this same logic here?Chapter 17 - 1736; 1736 You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Chapter 23 - 2378; 2378 He is the One who granted you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brains. Rarely are you appreciative.
Chapter 32 - 329; 329 He shaped him and blew into him from His spirit. And He gave you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brains; rarely are you thankful.
Chapter 67 - 6723;Just an extra - we can use our hearing as well. When the grasshoppers start making a noise, that's probably a good indication too - I noticed this the other day.
Wishing everyone a great Ramadan and sending best wishes!
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Hello all
This issue when to break fast and when salaat time is perhaps the most important issue for us coming from Scandinavia. We have a constant struggle against the time.....The summer is constant light and winter is constant darkness. Depending on when Ramadan starts in a particular year we either have heaven or hell (don't take the heaven or hell literally). This year for example we have it ok, fasting starts 0430 and ends 2130. Not too bad yeah
And I live in the south! Think how it is for those poor buggers in the north. Don't know if you know, but if you travel west from Stockholm (which is in the south of Sweden) and keep following the same latitude you will finally end up in......Alaska.
The normal consencus is that if the sun does not set or rise we are to follow the nearest muslim country's sunset/rise.
To me, that sounds like a lot of BS to be honest with you.....The Quran is complete, all the answers you can find there. I don't think for a second that when Allah almighty sent down the message of Ramadan/praying he "forgot" us scandihooligans or that it is actually true that we are to suffer (yes, pardon me for saying so, but fasting sometimes 20hrs/day for thirty days will zombify you) and in another year not being able to feel the effect of fasting because if you blink more than twice you missed that day.....
Due to the circumstances above, I think we are on the wrong interpretation path if we are to consider the sun as the clock of fasting/Ramadan. There must something we missed.
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guest, salam.
Peace siki,
And how do you determine the so called ?first light? and the ?last light?? Your definition is very subjective. It creates a chaotic system. And that is in direct contradiction to Allah?s system which is perfect and coherent and unites the believers. Simply put, your system divides the believers!
2-187 ----You may eat and drink until the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn---
This is first light, you can determine the last last with the same reference.
And also ponder over , why didn't he choose the sun rise to begin fasting.
Please justify your statement ?Quranic layal does not start at Ghorubul shams? by showing us the Quranic verse that says Ghorobul shams is NOT part of a night.
I have already posted clear proof in the shape of 15-65 and 6-76, that Ghoroubul shams is not the start of quranic layal , if you do not choose to ponder over what they are conveying, i can do no more.
Now how about you doing some work by showing us that quranic layal starts at Ghorobul shams, and why didnt God use the term/marker Gohorubul shams for ending fast instead of using the word layal?
And to remind , "you must re-evaluate your posts before hitting the post button ", we are all here to learn and give honest opinions , i don't know about you, but let me assure you that i have not been paid by Jews to misguide the believers here. If something is beyond your intellectual comprehension, it does not mean that the individual is working on an agenda.
peace
siki
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Hello all
This issue when to break fast and when salaat time is perhaps the most important issue for us coming from Scandinavia. We have a constant struggle against the time.....The summer is constant light and winter is constant darkness. Depending on when Ramadan starts in a particular year we either have heaven or hell (don't take the heaven or hell literally). This year for example we have it ok, fasting starts 0430 and ends 2130. Not too bad yeah
And I live in the south! Think how it is for those poor buggers in the north. Don't know if you know, but if you travel west from Stockholm (which is in the south of Sweden) and keep following the same latitude you will finally end up in......Alaska.
The normal consencus is that if the sun does not set or rise we are to follow the nearest muslim country's sunset/rise.
To me, that sounds like a lot of BS to be honest with you.....The Quran is complete, all the answers you can find there. I don't think for a second that when Allah almighty sent down the message of Ramadan/praying he "forgot" us scandihooligans or that it is actually true that we are to suffer (yes, pardon me for saying so, but fasting sometimes 20hrs/day for thirty days will zombify you) and in another year not being able to feel the effect of fasting because if you blink more than twice you missed that day.....
Due to the circumstances above, I think we are on the wrong interpretation path if we are to consider the sun as the clock of fasting/Ramadan. There must something we missed.
you have come up with very valid points, i have been thinking about these too, and have been wanting to discuss, but unfortunately we are still stuck with layal and gohorubul shams issue and have not been able to progress forward.
Ok, you and me , lets discuss this,
In a situation like yours , can we solve this by "calculating the period from first light to last light on longest days (end june approx) on equator", and fast for that particular period/hours starting from a time earlier in the morning ending what ever it is to be?
siki
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I'm not sure, I have not studied if this phenomenon (i.e. shahr ramadan ~ scorching full-moon) happens everywhere on the planet. Perhaps Bro Ayman will know, as he has studied this subject, e.g.
http//www.free-minds.org/timingI think issue here is not of orange moon (shahr ur ramadhan) but of, very long and undefined markers for starting and breaking fast, for which i have suggested a solution.
I mean the morning twilight and evening dusk are very long, and hence not very distinct, whereas they are short and crisp on equator
siki
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you have come up with very valid points, i have been thinking about these too, and have been wanting to discuss, but unfortunately we are still stuck with layal and gohorubul shams issue and have not been able to progress forward.
Ok, you and me , lets discuss this,
In a situation like yours , can we solve this by "calculating the period from first light to last light on longest days (end june approx) on equator", and fast for that particular period/hours starting from a time earlier in the morning ending what ever it is to be?
siki
Dear Siki
By doing like your proposal above is totally ok, it would bring an ordnance into our life, and from a biological/physical view it would be the most logical, but how will you prove that it is ok doing this by using the Quran? I don't know.
Something is bugging me....Islam is worldwide, it is for every nation and every human, regardless of culture and background. If this is true the "rules" and "rituals" must be highly flexible and adoptable in every sense. I read somewhere in a thread here on FM where somebody made a good point that the traditional "how to do" with women's clothing is totally irrelevant to an eskimo, they certainly do not need to be told to "lengthen your garment". Instead, they the eskimos must understand that verse from an eskimo point of view which will probably very different how a scholar in Mecca would see it.
So what's bugging me? The scholars and Imams of main-stream islam would want nothing more than the whole world to embrace islam. Every continent, every sort of person, every walk of life, even the "common" people.........Then why do they insist on sticking to rules that makes people feel islam is not for them? Are they really that ignorant that they do not understand that if they are really sincere about islam being a world religion, they must accept change and that people will make the message in the Quran applicable to them and their culture?
Oops fftopic
Back to Ramadhan. I think that the approach of Ramadhan being connected with the summer soltice is very interesting. I see how it fits into our life in a good way. Up here in the north the "month of scorching heat" (meaning june/july) is when the farmers are done sowing the seed, the fishermen do not fish (because of the biological cycle of fish) and the hunters do not hunt. It is a month of relaxing, watching the harvest, fish and meat grow. In my opinion, Allah would very much like his children to use this month of relaxation to contemplate over him, reading, learning, fasting some of the days, spending time with friends and relatives. Allah knows the other months are crammed with life-supporting activities such as gathering food and harvesting. Religion is not to be hard on us, why are we to fast during months where we have to work hard in order to survive? The month after summer solctice has always been "sacred" to us Scandihooligans. It stems long back in our history, long before the christians came. And what says that Allah did not send my ancestors a messenger? Maybe they, just like many other before and after them, got the message but interpreted a whole lot wrong? They got the whole God Alone concept totally up the wall wrong, that's for sure...But maybe, just maybe, they got the message of celebrating the summer solstice right.
Saying that june/july is the month of Ramadhan is contradicting myself. I cannot whine about the days being too long in august when I propose to move Ramadhan to july! But in my mind the timing of Ramadhan and the times to fast are two different subjects. I think using the traditional or literal translation of when to break/start the fast is not the way. There must be something that has been missed, there must be some evidence that makes it OK to fast in a manner that you, Siki, proposed. These are not retorical questions, I honestly don't know how.
