At what time we should break the fast?
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1778 says "illa ghasaqi al layl", meaning "untill the darkness of the night". If night was the period of the day when it is totally dark, then it would just have said "illa al layl". There would have not been any need for "darkness/ghasaq".
Furthermore, there is daylight in part of the night
If you see a night without moon or if the moon is obscured with clouds, night is dark, but when you have some moon, the night is not that dark, so you mean that moonlit nights cannot be called as night?
siki -
After deeply analysing all the verses, for God's definition of word LAYAL The following two verses tilted the balance, in favor of layal not starting at sunset (ghorubul shams )
6-76 When the night fell, he saw a shining planet. "Maybe this is my Lord," he said. When it disappeared, he said, "I do not like (gods) that disappear
15-65 "You shall take your family during the night. Stay behind them, and make sure that none of you looks back. Go straight as commanded
Had Moses phuh and his family tried to leave at or soon after sunset , they could have been seen escaping, and stopped.
siki
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why?
why not part of the day aswell.
siki
Peace siki,
Definition of day and night
Day = Sunrise to sunset
Night = Sunset to sunrise (the moment the sun goes below the horizon till the sun rise next morning). Absence of direct sunlight is night.
What is your definition of Day and Night?
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What is your definition of Day and Night?
Day--------sunrise to sunset
Night------ last light to first light
First light to sun rise, the overlapping period, Quran uses the term Fajar.
sunset to last light , the overlapping period , Quran uses the term Eishaa.Most importantly,
Ghorobul shams, (when the sun just goes below the horizon , and is no more visible) or Daluk ul shams, (when the sun touches the horizon for disappearance) are very precise markers, and have been used in quran at few places, Had HE intended ending fast at Ghourubal shams , HE would have used Ghourabal shams, rather than Layal.
Quranic layal does not start at Ghorubul shams, but Eisha does. And Eisha ends at last light and Layal starts.siki
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Day--------sunrise to sunset
Night------ last light to first light
First light to sun rise, the overlapping period, Quran uses the term Fajar.
sunset to last light , the overlapping period , Quran uses the term Eishaa.Most importantly,
Ghorobul shams, (when the sun just goes below the horizon , and is no more visible) or Daluk ul shams, (when the sun touches the horizon for disappearance) are very precise markers, and have been used in quran at few places, Had HE intended ending fast at Ghourubal shams , HE would have used Ghourabal shams, rather than Layal.
Quranic layal does not start at Ghorubul shams, but Eisha does. And Eisha ends at last light and Layal starts.siki
Peace siki,
And how do you determine the so called ?first light? and the ?last light?? Your definition is very subjective. It creates a chaotic system. And that is in direct contradiction to Allah?s system which is perfect and coherent and unites the believers. Simply put, your system divides the believers!
Please justify your statement ?Quranic layal does not start at Ghorubul shams? by showing us the Quranic verse that says Ghorobul shams is NOT part of a night.
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Salam Aleykum, greetings of peace!
Here are my thoughts and contributions. God Willing, Allah will guide us and Allah knows best.
If you were getting in your car to set off driving, would you put your headlights on? Not in broad daylight, but if it was dull you would.
Would you ask someone else "shall I put my headlights on?" No, you use your brain and just do it.
If you were sitting reading in your living room in broad daylight, would you switch on the light and shut your living room curtains? No, but you would if it was dull. You don't ask "is it time to put the light on and shut the curtains?" You just think for yourself and do it.
Can we use this same logic here?Chapter 17 - 1736; 1736 You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Chapter 23 - 2378; 2378 He is the One who granted you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brains. Rarely are you appreciative.
Chapter 32 - 329; 329 He shaped him and blew into him from His spirit. And He gave you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brains; rarely are you thankful.
Chapter 67 - 6723;Just an extra - we can use our hearing as well. When the grasshoppers start making a noise, that's probably a good indication too - I noticed this the other day.
Wishing everyone a great Ramadan and sending best wishes!
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Hello all
This issue when to break fast and when salaat time is perhaps the most important issue for us coming from Scandinavia. We have a constant struggle against the time.....The summer is constant light and winter is constant darkness. Depending on when Ramadan starts in a particular year we either have heaven or hell (don't take the heaven or hell literally). This year for example we have it ok, fasting starts 0430 and ends 2130. Not too bad yeah
And I live in the south! Think how it is for those poor buggers in the north. Don't know if you know, but if you travel west from Stockholm (which is in the south of Sweden) and keep following the same latitude you will finally end up in......Alaska.
The normal consencus is that if the sun does not set or rise we are to follow the nearest muslim country's sunset/rise.
To me, that sounds like a lot of BS to be honest with you.....The Quran is complete, all the answers you can find there. I don't think for a second that when Allah almighty sent down the message of Ramadan/praying he "forgot" us scandihooligans or that it is actually true that we are to suffer (yes, pardon me for saying so, but fasting sometimes 20hrs/day for thirty days will zombify you) and in another year not being able to feel the effect of fasting because if you blink more than twice you missed that day.....
Due to the circumstances above, I think we are on the wrong interpretation path if we are to consider the sun as the clock of fasting/Ramadan. There must something we missed.
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guest, salam.
Peace siki,
And how do you determine the so called ?first light? and the ?last light?? Your definition is very subjective. It creates a chaotic system. And that is in direct contradiction to Allah?s system which is perfect and coherent and unites the believers. Simply put, your system divides the believers!
2-187 ----You may eat and drink until the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn---
This is first light, you can determine the last last with the same reference.
And also ponder over , why didn't he choose the sun rise to begin fasting.
Please justify your statement ?Quranic layal does not start at Ghorubul shams? by showing us the Quranic verse that says Ghorobul shams is NOT part of a night.
I have already posted clear proof in the shape of 15-65 and 6-76, that Ghoroubul shams is not the start of quranic layal , if you do not choose to ponder over what they are conveying, i can do no more.
Now how about you doing some work by showing us that quranic layal starts at Ghorobul shams, and why didnt God use the term/marker Gohorubul shams for ending fast instead of using the word layal?
And to remind , "you must re-evaluate your posts before hitting the post button ", we are all here to learn and give honest opinions , i don't know about you, but let me assure you that i have not been paid by Jews to misguide the believers here. If something is beyond your intellectual comprehension, it does not mean that the individual is working on an agenda.
peace
siki
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Hello all
This issue when to break fast and when salaat time is perhaps the most important issue for us coming from Scandinavia. We have a constant struggle against the time.....The summer is constant light and winter is constant darkness. Depending on when Ramadan starts in a particular year we either have heaven or hell (don't take the heaven or hell literally). This year for example we have it ok, fasting starts 0430 and ends 2130. Not too bad yeah
And I live in the south! Think how it is for those poor buggers in the north. Don't know if you know, but if you travel west from Stockholm (which is in the south of Sweden) and keep following the same latitude you will finally end up in......Alaska.
The normal consencus is that if the sun does not set or rise we are to follow the nearest muslim country's sunset/rise.
To me, that sounds like a lot of BS to be honest with you.....The Quran is complete, all the answers you can find there. I don't think for a second that when Allah almighty sent down the message of Ramadan/praying he "forgot" us scandihooligans or that it is actually true that we are to suffer (yes, pardon me for saying so, but fasting sometimes 20hrs/day for thirty days will zombify you) and in another year not being able to feel the effect of fasting because if you blink more than twice you missed that day.....
Due to the circumstances above, I think we are on the wrong interpretation path if we are to consider the sun as the clock of fasting/Ramadan. There must something we missed.
you have come up with very valid points, i have been thinking about these too, and have been wanting to discuss, but unfortunately we are still stuck with layal and gohorubul shams issue and have not been able to progress forward.
Ok, you and me , lets discuss this,
In a situation like yours , can we solve this by "calculating the period from first light to last light on longest days (end june approx) on equator", and fast for that particular period/hours starting from a time earlier in the morning ending what ever it is to be?
siki
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I'm not sure, I have not studied if this phenomenon (i.e. shahr ramadan ~ scorching full-moon) happens everywhere on the planet. Perhaps Bro Ayman will know, as he has studied this subject, e.g.
http//www.free-minds.org/timingI think issue here is not of orange moon (shahr ur ramadhan) but of, very long and undefined markers for starting and breaking fast, for which i have suggested a solution.
I mean the morning twilight and evening dusk are very long, and hence not very distinct, whereas they are short and crisp on equator
siki
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you have come up with very valid points, i have been thinking about these too, and have been wanting to discuss, but unfortunately we are still stuck with layal and gohorubul shams issue and have not been able to progress forward.
Ok, you and me , lets discuss this,
In a situation like yours , can we solve this by "calculating the period from first light to last light on longest days (end june approx) on equator", and fast for that particular period/hours starting from a time earlier in the morning ending what ever it is to be?
siki
Dear Siki
By doing like your proposal above is totally ok, it would bring an ordnance into our life, and from a biological/physical view it would be the most logical, but how will you prove that it is ok doing this by using the Quran? I don't know.
Something is bugging me....Islam is worldwide, it is for every nation and every human, regardless of culture and background. If this is true the "rules" and "rituals" must be highly flexible and adoptable in every sense. I read somewhere in a thread here on FM where somebody made a good point that the traditional "how to do" with women's clothing is totally irrelevant to an eskimo, they certainly do not need to be told to "lengthen your garment". Instead, they the eskimos must understand that verse from an eskimo point of view which will probably very different how a scholar in Mecca would see it.
So what's bugging me? The scholars and Imams of main-stream islam would want nothing more than the whole world to embrace islam. Every continent, every sort of person, every walk of life, even the "common" people.........Then why do they insist on sticking to rules that makes people feel islam is not for them? Are they really that ignorant that they do not understand that if they are really sincere about islam being a world religion, they must accept change and that people will make the message in the Quran applicable to them and their culture?
Oops fftopic
Back to Ramadhan. I think that the approach of Ramadhan being connected with the summer soltice is very interesting. I see how it fits into our life in a good way. Up here in the north the "month of scorching heat" (meaning june/july) is when the farmers are done sowing the seed, the fishermen do not fish (because of the biological cycle of fish) and the hunters do not hunt. It is a month of relaxing, watching the harvest, fish and meat grow. In my opinion, Allah would very much like his children to use this month of relaxation to contemplate over him, reading, learning, fasting some of the days, spending time with friends and relatives. Allah knows the other months are crammed with life-supporting activities such as gathering food and harvesting. Religion is not to be hard on us, why are we to fast during months where we have to work hard in order to survive? The month after summer solctice has always been "sacred" to us Scandihooligans. It stems long back in our history, long before the christians came. And what says that Allah did not send my ancestors a messenger? Maybe they, just like many other before and after them, got the message but interpreted a whole lot wrong? They got the whole God Alone concept totally up the wall wrong, that's for sure...But maybe, just maybe, they got the message of celebrating the summer solstice right.
Saying that june/july is the month of Ramadhan is contradicting myself. I cannot whine about the days being too long in august when I propose to move Ramadhan to july! But in my mind the timing of Ramadhan and the times to fast are two different subjects. I think using the traditional or literal translation of when to break/start the fast is not the way. There must be something that has been missed, there must be some evidence that makes it OK to fast in a manner that you, Siki, proposed. These are not retorical questions, I honestly don't know how.
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guest, salam.
2-187 ----You may eat and drink until the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn---
This is first light, you can determine the last last with the same reference.
And also ponder over , why didn't he choose the sun rise to begin fasting.
I have already posted clear proof in the shape of 15-65 and 6-76, that Ghoroubul shams is not the start of quranic layal , if you do not choose to ponder over what they are conveying, i can do no more.
Now how about you doing some work by showing us that quranic layal starts at Ghorobul shams, and why didnt God use the term/marker Gohorubul shams for ending fast instead of using the word layal?
peace
siki
Peace siki,
The two ends of a fasting day are clearly defined in the following verses
3637 - Another sign for them is the night we remove the daylight therefrom, whereupon they are in darkness.
Source of a day is the sun (sunlight). When the source (sun) is present it is a day. When the source is not there (i.e. below the horizon) it is night. And this defines one end of fasting and the other end is defined in 2187 - ?? You may eat and drink until the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn ?.
I don?t question Allah?s wisdom (why did He do this instead of that). I hear and obey His commandments.
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Hello all
This issue when to break fast and when salaat time is perhaps the most important issue for us coming from Scandinavia. We have a constant struggle against the time.....The summer is constant light and winter is constant darkness. Depending on when Ramadan starts in a particular year we either have heaven or hell (don't take the heaven or hell literally). This year for example we have it ok, fasting starts 0430 and ends 2130. Not too bad yeah
And I live in the south! Think how it is for those poor buggers in the north. Don't know if you know, but if you travel west from Stockholm (which is in the south of Sweden) and keep following the same latitude you will finally end up in......Alaska.
The normal consencus is that if the sun does not set or rise we are to follow the nearest muslim country's sunset/rise.
To me, that sounds like a lot of BS to be honest with you.....The Quran is complete, all the answers you can find there. I don't think for a second that when Allah almighty sent down the message of Ramadan/praying he "forgot" us scandihooligans or that it is actually true that we are to suffer (yes, pardon me for saying so, but fasting sometimes 20hrs/day for thirty days will zombify you) and in another year not being able to feel the effect of fasting because if you blink more than twice you missed that day.....
Due to the circumstances above, I think we are on the wrong interpretation path if we are to consider the sun as the clock of fasting/Ramadan. There must something we missed.
Peace Emil,
Your conclusion ?we either have heaven or hell? is wrong. Allah does not impose any hardship on us. He has already taken care of your situation. Your way out is feeding one poor person per fasting day. And you can find lots of poor people in the world. Please read the highlighted parts in the following verses
2185 - Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book. Those of you who witness this month shall fast therein. Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number of other days. GOD wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify GOD for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.
2184 - Specific days (are designated for fasting); if one is ill or traveling, an equal number of other days may be substituted. Those who can fast, but with great difficulty, may substitute feeding one poor person for each day of breaking the fast. If one volunteers (more righteous works), it is better. But fasting is the best for you, if you only knew.
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I'm not sure, I have not studied if this phenomenon (i.e. shahr ramadan ~ scorching full-moon) happens everywhere on the planet. Perhaps Bro Ayman will know, as he has studied this subject, e.g.
http//www.free-minds.org/timingPeace Wakas,
Yes, he may have studied the subject but his conclusion has NO merits.
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Peace siki,
The two ends of a fasting day are clearly defined in the following verses
3637 - Another sign for them is the night we remove the daylight therefrom, whereupon they are in darkness.
Source of a day is the sun (sunlight). When the source (sun) is present it is a day. When the source is not there (i.e. below the horizon) it is night. And this defines one end of fasting and the other end is defined in 2187 - ?? You may eat and drink until the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn ?.
I don?t question Allah?s wisdom (why did He do this instead of that). I hear and obey His commandments.
Ayaha says that we remove the light therefrom Not the sun, some refractive light remains till sun goes a certain degrees below horizon.
siki
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Peace
I just read bits and pieces..
Verse 2187 says ilal-layl to the night? And verses 1778 mention ghasaqi el-layl ? darkness of night? Is it simply a description of night?
I think in terms of fasting if we take 2187 there?s no mentioning of ghasaq so the assumption would be the start of night, so twilight?
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Peace Emil,
Your conclusion ?we either have heaven or hell? is wrong. Allah does not impose any hardship on us. He has already taken care of your situation. Your way out is feeding one poor person per fasting day. And you can find lots of poor people in the world. Please read the highlighted parts in the following verses
2185 - Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book. Those of you who witness this month shall fast therein. Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number of other days. GOD wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify GOD for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.
2184 - Specific days (are designated for fasting); if one is ill or traveling, an equal number of other days may be substituted. Those who can fast, but with great difficulty, may substitute feeding one poor person for each day of breaking the fast. If one volunteers (more righteous works), it is better. But fasting is the best for you, if you only knew.
Dear Guest
Please don't take the heaven or hell literally, I realize I should have written "easy or difficult". And it is a very good point you bring forward and that is what I actually most of the time follow, feed the poor and try to get involved in helping other people. Not because of the times of fasting but because of my work, If I don't eat (not enough energy) I will be a danger to my colleagues and patients.
But the fact remains. If a muslim wants (because AQ states it is the best for him) to fast during the time of Ramadhan and he lives in a northern country he will, depending on what year, either have an "easy" or "difficult" fast. A muslim in a northern country will not fast under the same premises as a muslim in, for example, Singapore. This, I feel is fundamentaly wrong. I also feel that the general rule to follow the nearest muslim country if the sun does not set in your location is wrong, as far as I understand this just a rule made with no reference to the AQ. I am sorry if I am basing my opinion on only that, opinion. But it doesnt just feel right that Allah's ruling is different depending on where you live. That is why I feel that something is missed, are we really interpreting it right?
