Praise Be to Muhammad rasool Allah

Ayisha

Munifiqeen are being discussed. And what is said about their attitude, it is evident from the entire forum, that they start hue and cry when others bear witness that He is the Messenger of Allah, they allege that people are associating him with Allah and worshipping the Messenger.

They on visit to him, person to person, said with complete emphasis that we bear witness that "It is certain that you are the Messenger of Allah". But they never bear witness to this fact in public and when others say this they start making hue and cry that people are assoiciating him with Allah. They are therefore liars.

So there is no verse to back up what you just said and you have invented it or made 'correction' to some verse. Ok thank you peace

Mazhar

So there is no verse to back up what you just said and you have invented it or made 'correction' to some verse. Ok thank you peace

Say loudly thrice confirming and bearing witness simultaneously to these two statements to prove me wrong in my observation about Munifiqeen.

Ayisha

Say loudly thrice confirming and bearing witness simultaneously to these two statements to prove me wrong in my observation about Munifiqeen.

Would that make a verse appear in Quran to back up what you claimed it said?

I have said these statements in this forum, you go search for them then see how you can twist them and no, they didnt make a verse appear in Quran saying what you just claimed it said.

Mazhar

Would that make a verse appear in Quran to back up what you claimed it said?

I have said these statements in this forum, you go search for them then see how you can twist them and no, they didnt make a verse appear in Quran saying what you just claimed it said.

I said this

Say loudly thrice confirming and bearing witness simultaneously to these two statements to prove me wrong in my observation about Munifiqeen.

The above are two statements, not one.

Ayisha

I said this

The above are two statements, not one.

yes i know, i can read them too. But you avoided my question again about you claiming God said something in Quran which He did not. Trying to force me to "Say loudly thrice confirming and bearing witness simultaneously to these two statements to prove me wrong in my observation about Munifiqeen." is not getting away from the fact you claim God said something He clearly did NOT or you would be able to bring the evidence and also, how do you know I didnt 'say loudly thrice' these statements?

The shahada is in 3.18 if you care to look and 2.285 says we make no distinction among messengers, so what you are wanting me to 'say loudly thrice' would be shirk and I am not an idolator. nor do I claim God said something He didnt nor do i 'adjust' His Words or try to attempt to 'correct' Him. peace

Raaajah

The shahada is in 3.18 if you care to look and 2.285 says we make no distinction among messengers, so what you are wanting me to 'say loudly thrice' would be shirk and I am not an idolator. nor do I claim God said something He didnt nor do i 'adjust' His Words or try to attempt to 'correct' Him

How come saying that Muhammad(peace is upon him) is Rasul of Allah, has to do something with Shirk?,idolatry?, and making distinction among messengers. Come on Ayisha you are just confirming the fears of Mazhar.

Ayisha

How come saying that Muhammad(peace is upon him) is Rasul of Allah, has to do something with Shirk?,idolatry?, and making distinction among messengers. Come on Ayisha you are just confirming the fears of Mazhar.

Well if you can't see it raj, then there is no hope for you. It is making a distinction because it mentions one messenger only and I believe in ALL messengers and prophets of God from Adam to Muhammed and I will not distinguish one from another claiming one is 'better than' the rest and making him into some sort of superman who is in my declaration of faith next to God. 3.18, and 2.285 I have given the verses, look them up even Mazhars 2.285 says WE make no distinction among any of His messengers but here he is making a clear distinction.

I have said it numerous times on here anyway and I am not responsible for Mazhars fears, Mazhar shoud fear Allah more for claiming He said things He didnt and Mazhar being unable to back it up, yet again. How many is that now I wonder? Mazhar has declared me munafiq anyway, so he can live with that and his fears, Allah knows.

mmkhan

Salaamun dear brothers and sisters in Islam,

Please allow to say something and please excuse my poor English.

Laa Ilaaha illaAllah is an Aayat of AlQuraan/The Book of Allah

Mohammedu AlRasool Allah is also an Aayat of AlQuraan/The Book of Allah

We have to believe and accept both the aayaats, but IMHO we have not right to join or separate any of the aayaats of our choice. Allah would have send these two aayaats together if it has to.

Secondly, when we believe that Mohammed is a Messenger of Allah, does it need parroting? If so, then our Shahadah or Kalima should be

Laa Ilaaha IllaAllahu Mohammedu AlRasool Allah, Eisa AlRasool Allah, Moosa AlRasool Allah, etc... Cause we not only believe in Mohamed being a Messenger of Allah but we also believe that others as well. So, why not parrot there names too whenever we say Laa Ilaaha IllaAllah ???

I believe that every person who believe in Allah alone and His Book alone does respect Prophet Mohammed. Infact, they have to as a Messenger of Allah.

But... also I would like to add 2165 in regards to the subject of this thread.

2165

2165 And from among the people are some who take other than Allah as equals to Him, they love them as they love Allah; but those who believe love Allah more strongly; and when those who were wicked see the retribution, they will see that all power belongs to Allah, and that Allah is severe in retribution.

I hope you understand what I said.

May Allah guide us all towards the correct path.

Mohammed M. Khan

Raaajah

Salaam

MM khan,

Secondly, when we believe that Mohammed is a Messenger of Allah, does it need parroting? If so, then our Shahadah or Kalima should be
Laa Ilaaha IllaAllahu Mohammedu AlRasool Allah, Eisa AlRasool Allah, Moosa AlRasool Allah, etc... Cause we not only believe in Mohamed being a Messenger of Allah but we also believe that others as well. So, why not parrot there names too whenever we say Laa Ilaaha IllaAllah

You are certainly wrong there brother, please read the following Ayat then

Allah took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."

and in the very next Ayat Allah Warns Those who reject this are the evil ones.
So dear Khan, it is quite obvious that when the seal of Prophets has arrived, the promise of Allah has been fulfilled, now all those previous prophets have to believe in him and support him, as they promised to Allah. When they all witness to him then there is no need for us to say Esa Roohullah etc.

2165 And from among the people are some who take other than Allah as equals to Him, they love them as they love Allah; but those who believe love Allah more strongly; and when those who were wicked see the retribution, they will see that all power belongs to Allah, and that Allah is severe in retribution.

To post this verse in support of your argument holds no impact at least for those who are discussing this subject, because they DO NOT, repeat do not, take any one as equal or even near equal to Allah, as it is the biggest SHIRK.

For Ayisha all I could say is, Allah Ho Akbar who has created creations of all kinds.

Raaajah

Some people have taken it from Rashad Khailfa and carried it over, the Verse 2285

and 2.285 says we make no distinction among messengers, so what you are wanting me to 'say loudly thrice' would be shirk and I am not an idolator. nor do I claim God said something He didnt nor do i 'adjust' His Words or try to attempt to 'correct' Him

We have to understand that the mention of Muhammad (PIUH) in the Shahadah is not with the purpose of declaring his supremacy over the other prophets of Allah nor with the purpose of creating a distinction between the various prophets of Allah, but with the sole purpose of declaring that the adherents of Islam - in contrast to all the religions of the world - believe in the one true God and the prophet-hood of Muhammad (PIUH). It is because of the belief in the prophethood of Muhammad (PIUH) that Muslims are prohibited from creating any distinction between the prophets of Allah or of ascribing absolute supremacy to any one of the prophets of God over the others. (Moiz Amjad)

However if Allah has preferred one over others that is his will.

It is also interesting to note that had the Qur'an or Islam prohibited bearing witness regarding the prophethood of Muhammad (PIUH) and had it restricted its followers to testify only about the oneness of God, then the testimony of the hypocrites mentioned in Al-Munafiqoon 63 1 would have been mentioned as an act of outright rejection of Islamic directives, rather than hypocrisy. (Moiz Amjad)

318A is not a statement of the comprehensive testimony of Islam but is, in fact, a testimony of Tawheed - i.e., the oneness of God - which is a part of the comprehensive testimony of Islam.

And where ever it is said of 'associating anything with Allah' in the Ayats of Quran it implies holding someone equal to Allah. It does not, in any way, hinder the combined declaration of the oneness of God and the prophet-hood of Muhammad in the Shahadah, as No one is holding Muhammad PIUH as equal to Allah as it is the Biggest Shirk.

Mazhar

Say loudly thrice confirming and bearing witness simultaneously to these two statements to prove me wrong in my observation about Munifiqeen.

Now please carefully see the psyche and attitude and conduct of the Munifiqeen

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.08a.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.08b.gif
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And amongst the particular (in those days, Jew) people, there are those who, falsely and deceptively proclaim, "We have accepted the belief in Allah and the Last Day". And the fact is that they are certainly not the believers.

Word by Word Analysis 208

They are not saying/proclaiming this to the walls and mountained. They are saying this to True Believers. This does not contain their pronouncement about believing in Muhammad the Messenger of Allah.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/063.%20Al%20Munafiqoon/63.1p.gif
When the Muna'fi'qoon had come to you, the Messenger Muhammad they orally said,
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/063.%20Al%20Munafiqoon/63.1q.gif
"We bear witness that indeed you are certainly the Messenger of Allah"

Surat Al Munafiqoon

This is typical behaviour of Munifiqeen. Before believers they do not testify their belief in Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam being the Messenger of Allah alongwith their so called proclamation of belief in Allah and the last day. And when they called in privacy upon the Messenger Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam there they with all force of emphasis said about the Messenger without stating belief in Allah and the Last Day. Allah straightaway declared them as Liars.

The throats of Munifqeen get choked for pronouncing these two undeniable facts simultaneously before people.

Ayisha

Now please carefully see the psyche and attitude and conduct of the Munifiqeen

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.08a.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.08b.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.08c.gif

And amongst the particular (in those days, Jew) people, there are those who, falsely and deceptively proclaim, "We have accepted the belief in Allah and the Last Day". And the fact is that they are certainly not the believers.

Word by Word Analysis 208

They are not saying/proclaiming this to the walls and mountained. They are saying this to True Believers. This does not contain their pronouncement about believing in Muhammad the Messenger of Allah.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/063.%20Al%20Munafiqoon/63.1p.gif
When the Muna'fi'qoon had come to you, the Messenger Muhammad they orally said,
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/063.%20Al%20Munafiqoon/63.1q.gif
"We bear witness that indeed you are certainly the Messenger of Allah"

Surat Al Munafiqoon

This is typical behaviour of Munifiqeen. Before believers they do not testify their belief in Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam being the Messenger of Allah alongwith their so called proclamation of belief in Allah and the last day. And when they called in privacy upon the Messenger Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam there they with all force of emphasis said about the Messenger without stating belief in Allah and the Last Day. Allah straightaway declared them as Liars.

The throats of Munifqeen get choked for pronouncing these two undeniable facts simultaneously before people.

Now please carefully see the psyche and attitude and conduct of the Munifiqeen

When the Muna'fi'qoon had come to you, the Messenger Muhammad, they orally said

"We bear witness that indeed you are certainly the Messenger of Allah"

..alongwith their so called proclamation of belief in Allah and the last day.

And when they called in privacy upon the Messenger Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam there they with all force of emphasis said about the Messenger without stating belief in Allah and the Last Day. Allah straightaway declared them as Liars.

The throats of Munifqeen get choked for pronouncing these two undeniable facts simultaneously before people.

you have just declared yourself Munafiq Mazhar, well done

Mazhar

Now please carefully see the psyche and attitude and conduct of the Munifiqeen

When the Muna'fi'qoon had come to you, the Messenger Muhammad, they orally said

"We bear witness that indeed you are certainly the Messenger of Allah"

..alongwith their so called proclamation of belief in Allah and the last day.

And when they called in privacy upon the Messenger Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam there they with all force of emphasis said about the Messenger without stating belief in Allah and the Last Day. Allah straightaway declared them as Liars.

The throats of Munifqeen get choked for pronouncing these two undeniable facts simultaneously before people.

you have just declared yourself Munafiq Mazhar, well done

Look how conveniently Munafiqeen get disturbed and perplexed and even loose control and understanding of their mother tongue. Re read what is said by me. Now you are proving yourself to be really a Munafiq since you cant pronounce these two undeniable facts simultaneously. Proounce and write bodly three times in Arabic to get out of the company of those determined Munifiqeen and then request the Messenger for forgiving you and to seekk forgiveness for you from Allah.

Ayisha

Salaam

MM khan,
You are certainly wrong there brother, please read the following Ayat then

Allah took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."

and in the very next Ayat Allah Warns Those who reject this are the evil ones.

If you read the verses before this you will find this is to do with Jesus and those that worshipped him.

3.79 It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the prophetic office, should say to people "Be ye my worshippers rather than Allah's" on the contrary (He would say) "Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all For ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly."
3.80 Nor would he instruct you to take angels and prophets for Lords and patrons. What! would he bid you to unbelief after ye have bowed your will (To Allah in Islam)?
3.81 Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you a messenger, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said "We agree." He said "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

This last verse shows that ALL the prophets that came confirmed what was with them, what came before, Jesus confirmed what came before and so did Muhammed.

This is NOT a verse to use to show people your twisted thinking in that ALL previous prophets somehow bowed to Muhammed, which is what you appear to be trying to show. The verses show CLEARLY that each prophet will have helped the others and believed in each other and that at NO TIME would ANY prophet of God tell believers to worship him beside GOD ALONE.

So dear Khan, it is quite obvious that when the seal of Prophets has arrived, the promise of Allah has been fulfilled, now all those previous prophets have to believe in him and support him, as they promised to Allah. When they all witness to him then there is no need for us to say Esa Roohullah etc.
there is no need to say it for Muhammed either as the verse you are claiming above was relating to the people of Jesus who claim he said worship him and if you look at 33.7 God also made this covenant with Muhammed. The verse says Allah took the convenant of THE PROPHETS meaning ALL the prophets, not all those before Muhammed, so what 'promise' of Allah are you talking about?

To post this verse in support of your argument holds no impact at least for those who are discussing this subject, because they DO NOT, repeat do not, take any one as equal or even near equal to Allah, as it is the biggest SHIRK.
many verses seem to hold no impact for you Raj, but this is what Allah says and although you CLAIM to be not committing shirk, do you really REALLY think that it is done INTENTIONALLY by anyone?

For Ayisha all I could say is, Allah Ho Akbar who has created creations of all kinds.

Why for me? I KNOW He has created everything.

Ayisha

Look how conveniently Munafiqeen get disturbed and perplexed and even loose control and understanding of their mother tongue.

You wrote it mazhar, obviously you don't understand what it says and I am neither disturbed nor perplexed, you very obviously are, big time.

Re read what is said by me.

I copied and pasted what was said by you

Now you are proving yourself to be really a Munafiq since you cant pronounce these two undeniable facts simultaneously.

But you have said, and I quote, "The throats of Munifqeen get choked for pronouncing these two undeniable facts simultaneously before people". unquote. So WHY are you standing there as my judge and trying to get me to do this?

Proounce and write bodly three times in Arabic to get out of the company of those determined Munifiqeen and then request the Messenger for forgiving you and to seekk forgiveness for you from Allah.

Now you want 'pronounce and write boldly three times in Arabic' and not Say loudly thrice! laugh

How DARE you tell me to commit GROSS shirk by asking a dead man to seek forgiveness for me? I ask forgiveness from ALLAH ALONE.

4.106 But seek the forgiveness of Allah; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

11.03 "(And to preach thus), 'Seek ye the forgiveness of your Lord, and turn to Him in repentance; that He may grant you enjoyment, good (and true), for a term appointed, and bestow His abounding grace on all who abound in merit! But if ye turn away, then I fear for you the penalty of a great day

11.90 "But ask forgiveness of your Lord, and turn unto Him (in repentance) For my Lord is indeed full of mercy and loving-kindness."

40.12 (The answer will be) "This is because, when Allah was invoked as the Only (object of worship), ye did reject Faith, but when partners were joined to Him, ye believed! the Command is with Allah, Most High, Most Great!"

39.45 When Allah, the One and Only, is mentioned, the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter are filled with disgust and horror; but when (gods) other than He are mentioned, behold, they are filled with joy!

39.14 Say "It is Allah I serve, with my sincere (and exclusive) devotion

39.15 "Serve ye what ye will besides him." Say "Truly, those in loss are those who lose their own souls and their People on the Day of Judgment Ah! that is indeed the (real and) evident Loss!

39.3 Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful.
But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say) "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah." Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ.

I leave you to pray to Muahmmed and to worship him beside Allah and may Allah guide you and release the veil on your idolatrous eyes and heart.

Ayisha

Some people have taken it from Rashad Khailfa and carried it over, the Verse 2285
what does RK have to do with this, he didnt make this verse, Allah did.

We have to understand that the mention of Muhammad (PIUH) in the Shahadah is not with the purpose of declaring his supremacy over the other prophets of Allah nor with the purpose of creating a distinction between the various prophets of Allah, but with the sole purpose of declaring that the adherents of Islam - in contrast to all the religions of the world - believe in the one true God and the prophet-hood of Muhammad (PIUH). It is because of the belief in the prophethood of Muhammad (PIUH) that Muslims are prohibited from creating any distinction between the prophets of Allah or of ascribing absolute supremacy to any one of the prophets of God over the others. (Moiz Amjad)

read raj, PROHIBITED from creating any distinction between the prophets of Allah or of ascribing absolute supremacy to any one of the prophets of God over the others.

However if Allah has preferred one over others that is his will.

It is also interesting to note that had the Qur'an or Islam prohibited bearing witness regarding the prophethood of Muhammad (PIUH) and had it restricted its followers to testify only about the oneness of God, then the testimony of the hypocrites mentioned in Al-Munafiqoon 63 1 would have been mentioned as an act of outright rejection of Islamic directives, rather than hypocrisy. (Moiz Amjad)

318A is not a statement of the comprehensive testimony of Islam but is, in fact, a testimony of Tawheed - i.e., the oneness of God - which is a part of the comprehensive testimony of Islam.
I didnt know there had been something added to 3.18 as 3.18A.

How can anyone claim ONEness and then claim something else as PART of ONE.

And where ever it is said of 'associating anything with Allah' in the Ayats of Quran it implies holding someone equal to Allah. It does not, in any way, hinder the combined declaration of the oneness of God and the prophet-hood of Muhammad in the Shahadah, as No one is holding Muhammad PIUH as equal to Allah as it is the Biggest Shirk.

As ever if you keep saying it over and over again you do come to really believe that.

Ayisha