WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...
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Salaams ,
may be someone has gone over this , if so please explain.- "O you tribes of Jinn and humans, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;? and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejecters.
Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as from among mankind. (2275)
According to these two ayah?s ?The Jinn are Angels? or some Jinn are and vice versa.
Jinn and humans ------ messengers come to you from amongst you !
Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as mankind !
Or isn?t the logic there ?
Gods Blessings.
Salaam All,
Question
I am completely ignorant on the issue of Jinn here and everywhere else in the Quran however. What is their significance/meaning? How do progressives interpret Jinn?
Answer
Imagine Muhammad had to explain Jinn to a mindset of 1400 years ago, when people considered the world is flat. In English definition, we just had the translation for this word about 50 years ago. Could Jinn be equated to Extraterrestrials (ET). God always gives us things in pairs, for example, 'ins - human' and 'jinn - et'; day and night; woman and man; and asks us not to compare these pairs as they are not alike. But look at the advantages in them.
If one compares day and night, what does one sees. The day could be white and the night could be black. While, the could be day scouring heat and the night could be beautiful breeze. This is comparing them as opposite poles. Is this comparison fair? No, this is a linear thinking, not multi dimensional. We are not looking at the advantages given to them. Now let us make a circle of the day and night, keeping one on the left and the other on the right. Now let us see how these two merge into each other and how many different shades are in them.
The South Park is created, written and voiced by Matt Stone and Trey Parker, and recently these two were interviewed on TV. One of them said, that he believes in God, but can't understand that the Kingdom of God is sooo, soooo vast, why we are the only intelligent being in this vast Kingdom. Now let us take the pair of ins and jinn and make a circle of this pair. Try to imagine how many shades are in them. How many different creations are in them and realize how vast is God Kingdom. How many shades are in woman and man.
- "O you tribes of Jinn and humans, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;? and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejectors.
The implication here is that God sent human messengers (prophets) to humans and that God sent jinn messengers (prophets) to jinn. Though Koran says that Muhammad (pbuh) was a messenger to both humans and jinns.
Allah chooses Message-bearers from among the angels as well as from among mankind. (2275)
The implication here is that the angels as messengers such as Gabriel were sent to human messengers (prophets) such as Muhammad (pbuh).
Some Semitic terms
Now concerning the word "Prophet". The first and foremost meaning of the term is "One who speaks for God". This can be established from the scriptures themselves (Exodus 71)
Quote
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.I believe the above is a quotation from OT, the original is in Hebrew. What is being quoting is a translation in English. I am pretty sure that the Hebrew word used in the quotation for "Prophet" is Navi (Nabi in Arabic).
Someone told me once that from Adam (the first navi) to Muhammad (the last navi) there are about 124,000 of naviim. Abraham was a navi too, but he was the first one to attain the status of rasool. Also, Abraham is the only navi and rasool who was given the status of Imam. Abraham is the only one in the Koran mentioned, who had all the three status and tittles of navi, rasool and imam.
I believe that all three Moshe, Jesus and Muhammad were nabi and rasool in Islam though none of these three had the title of Imam. I am not sure that Aaron was a rasool or not, though he a nabi (navi) in Islam. Usually the word nabi (navi) is translated in English as prophet and the word rasool is translated in English as messenger. A rasool is a carrier of the risala (message). The OT verse quoted above mentions, Moses a god to Pharaoh and Aaron his (Moses' brother shall be Moses prophet. Aaron would be a navi to his brother Moses, who is a rasool.
Mohamed
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Be patient with me. These are only my thoughts at this point in time.
And to Allah doth obeisance all that is in the heavens and on earth, whether moving (living) creatures or the angels for none are arrogant (before their Lord).
We all obey God whether we like it or not. We obey Him by being subject to the laws of nature, implemented by Him. For instance, if I jump off the 50th floor, my body will go splat and I will die. It's maybe not very obvious to everyone, but indirectly, I am obeying God. There's no chance that I will survive. Same, if I jump off a cliff, and my body touches the ground, I WILL die.
Now maybe that's the true meaning of "controller". In this example, it would be the controller of Gravity and the controller of Death, who took action. As the Qur'an says, they cannot disobey God. Literally. They don't have the choice.Also, in another thread, I suggested that the two "controllers" who are supposedly writing down all our good deeds, bad deeds and our thoughts may just be another allusion to our brain the right side and the left side. (You may find the thread here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597444.msg215276#msg215276). This idea brought me to the conclusion that the controllers definitely affect the way our body works. It is through them that God makes our heart beat, our lungs breathe, our feet walk. They are the signs of God's infinite power, and through them, He intervenes in the world.
From what I've understood, God did ask the controllers to bow to mankind, but the jinn didn't. You will understand why.
God says that the jinn are "creatures with free will". This means that they can make decisions, plan, act. In addition, God says that each one of us has a qareen from among the jinn. In other words, we all have this creature within us, who has his own free will, who can make decision, plan, act. I'm not going to go all "psychological" on you now, but have any of you heard the theory of the id, the ego and the super-ego?Go on wikipedia. This is the explanation it gives of the id "The id is responsible for our basic drives such as food, water, sex, and basic impulses. It is amoral and egocentric, ruled by the pleasure?pain principle; it is without a sense of time, completely illogical, primarily sexual, infantile in its emotional development, and will not take "no" for an answer. It is regarded as the reservoir of the libido or "instinctive drive to create".
What's even more interesting is that Freud describes the id, as being "the dark, inaccessible part of our personality".
It is too long to explain my theory about how the human being (ego) must battle with his jinn (id) to reach peace and submission (super-ego), but I do want to add something. I think that it is only when man battles his jinn that he can reach submission. Okay, this is weird. I just noticed that Submission (Islam) can mean submission of the human being to God, but also submission of the id to the ego. Oh my God... I'll be right back. I need to think. confused
Peace,
Muse
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Okay, I was saying "the human being (ego) must battle with his jinn (id) to reach peace and submission (super-ego)".
For a moment, I thought that I was saying that the super-ego was God. But I've come to realize that by battling one's jinn, the human being isn't reaching the status of God, he's reaching the status of controller (in constant praise of God). He obeys God at all times, no matter what.
However, to reach this status is impossible, because the man (ego) is constantly in battle with his jinn (id). This is a universal truth. No human is perfect. He will continue to eat, drink, have sexual intercourse, etc. His basic desires will always be present. He can control them, but he can't get rid of them.
The super-ego is thus characterised by its desire to reach perfection. Even though it will never actually reaches perfection, this is where God's infinite Mercy kicks in. And ta-daaa! You're all forgiven.Have I completely strayed off topic, or am I making sense?
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SALAAMUN TO ALL
2533 And they shall not bring to you any question/argument, but We have brought to you the truth and best the explanation.
75.19 Again on Us is the explaining of it.
I like to start out with these two ayats, just to put into people's mind that, Al-Qur'an, is not a book on Philosophical Relativism, that is, it decides the questions/arguements which are brought to it.
I've been debating with some people here on the question, is Iblis an angel? Allah says that, no question/arguement can be brought that Al-Qur'an explain it with the best explanation.
Their assertion is that, based on ayat 234, where Allah commands the angels to bow down and because Iblis did not, thereby, makes Iblis an angel. For them this is Allah calling Iblis an angel rather than an allusion to his being an angel.
One comment is as follows
Here, the individual, insists upon asserting that Iblis was called an angel, yet, posted no ayat where, Allah, calls him an angel. However, in the following ayat, Allah, does call Iblis a JINN.
18.50 And when We said to the angels Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the JINN, so he rebelled against his Lord's. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust.
In the following ayat, Allah, tells us the nature of the JINN and, states that, He created them of fire
15.27 And the JINN We created before, of intensely hot fire.
In the following ayat, Allah, tells us that, Iblis, once again, was created from fire.
38.76 He said I am better than he; Thou hast created me of fire, and him Thou didst create of dust.
Now, no ayat, repeat, no ayat, tell us the nature of the angels, none. Allah, never calls Iblis an angel nor does He state, anywhere, that the angels were created of a fire of a scorching wind, as some indviduals assert.
Now consider the following ayats.
16.49 And whatever creature that is in the heavens and that is in the earth makes obeisance to Allah (only), and the angels (too) and they do not show pride.
16.50 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.
Now, Allah, cannot be talking about the JINN and men here, because they both have, at times, refused to carry out Allah's command. So, what creatures then, always carry out Allah's commands?---the non-human creatures and the angels. Clearly, Iblis, cannot be an angel, because he refused to carry out Allah's command to bow. Now, to continue to suggest or stand by 234, as saying that Iblis is one of the angels and that he refused to follow Allah's command and bow down, is to then set up a contradiction between 234 and 16 50. Al-Qur'an cannot contradict itself, hence, once again, the evidence is against the notion that Iblis was an angel.
If Allah didn't ask the JINN to bow directly, then what does that tell us? yeah, the JINN, Iblis included, KNEW that the command also extended to THEM. Given the amount of Qur'anic facts about the JINN and angels, no other explanation makes sense.
For anyone to assert that Iblis was an angel, hence, the the angels were created of fire as well or that Iblis was an angel and then became a JINN, as one individual continues to assert, when he refused to bow, contradicts the ayat which states he was created from fire from the beginning and, not that he became a being of fire because he rebelled.
These individuals and those of like mind, at best, can only offer allusion/conjecture/extrapolation for evidence , but no Qur'anic evidence. The ayats which I posted, clearly and unmistakenly tell us what Iblis was called by Allah...a JINN.
However when We had said for the Angles, "You make obeisance to Adam "; thereupon in compliance thereof they did obeisance, but Ieblees demurred through self pride and so became amongst those who refuse the command.
Allah said, "What hampered you that you should not humble/show obeisance when for it I had commanded you, Iblees?"
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I cant recall how this thread turned out, but my current view is
iblees (~ego) is a malaika (controlling force) that is jinn/hidden.
iblees was designed to respond exactly as "he" did, i.e. disobey, thus did not break the rule that malaika do as commanded.
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i think just like us, biological ceatures, there's humans, snimals, fish, birds, maybe there many kinds of angels, that why allah spoke to the angles (all of them) they all bow down except the jinn, maybe a jinn is wat is called in other culture a fallen angel, i believe also that gabriel is not an angel, and also michael, Jibril = jabar allah , mean the mighty in power, shadid al kiwa, the force of allah, allah named him that way, the holy spirit is the holy spirit, the one who brings revelation, the one who ic called also the spirit of truth, or simply the spirit, the one whom wllah used to blow from him into adam and into jesus, allah created the holy spirit , allah is the lord of the holy spirit and gabriel and michael and the angels ans mankind, the reason i believe we don't have a part of god in us as our spirit, but we have a part of the spirit that allah created, allah is not a spirit, spirits are created by allah, we're the last of creation, well, that"s what i understand, i could be wrong , but it doesn't matter, that's the world of the unseen and we cannot really comprehend, only those of us guys who are blessed in the hearafter that might have the knowlege of all these questions, some of us from this forum might be there, hopefully all of us, but for sure not me, for I will burn in hell and never know what gabriel is or the holy spirit is, and don't tell me know, i'm sure about it, and i know i deserve to go to hell, if allah puts me in paradise i don't see any justice there, ciao, peace, let me have my bear and enjoy for it is too late for me, ciao
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Peace brother Wakas,
I cant recall how this thread turned out, but my current view is
iblees (~ego) is a malaika (controlling force) that is jinn/hidden.
iblees was designed to respond exactly as "he" did, i.e. disobey, thus did not break the rule that malaika do as commanded.Is being a "controlling force" something intrinsic or is it something given and can be taken away?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Bro Ayman,
God could take it away. I'm not 100% sure what you mean though.
Also, I should clarify my previous statement, I meant
iblees was designed to respond exactly as "he" did, i.e. not SJD, thus did not break the rule that malaika do as commanded. -
Peace brother Wakas,
God could take it away. I'm not 100% sure what you mean though.
Since "mlk/control" is given by the god and could be taken away, then the "controlling forces" are not a certain specie but it is a status that the god gives and could take away.
So like all "controlling forces", Iblis was given control. However, when he disobeyed, it was taken away from him. He was always a "jinn", before and after control was taken away from him. If any "controlling force" disobeys the god then he would cease to be a "controlling force".
Also, I should clarify my previous statement, I meant
iblees was designed to respond exactly as "he" did, i.e. not SJD, thus did not break the rule that malaika do as commanded.This would contradict the fact that all humans and "jinn" were designed to serve the god
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
I cant recall how this thread turned out, but my current view is
iblees (~ego) is a malaika (controlling force) that is jinn/hidden.
iblees was designed to respond exactly as "he" did, i.e. disobey, thus did not break the rule that malaika do as commanded.
It's contradiction to be programmed or hardwired to disobey the program.
Circular deadlock IF command = obey THEN command = disobey
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Peace Bro Ayman,
Can you clarify where you get these statements from
However, when he disobeyed, it was taken away from him.
If any "controlling force" disobeys the god then he would cease to be a "controlling force".
This would contradict the fact that all humans and "jinn" were designed to serve the god
They should serve God, whether they do or not is a different matter, but as I said, "iblees" was designed not to SJD, thus did exactly as designed to do.
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Peace Wakas,
Hence my later clarification, i.e. "iblees" was designed not to SJD (mankind).
That's the contradiction; God's command was clearly given to submit and cannot assume opposite was programmed.
The logical conclusion is that iblees like humans was given autonomy or choice to agree/disagree with the command.
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Peace Noon,
I fail to see the contradiction
We said to the malaika SJD to/for adam/mankind, but iblees did not SJD.
The above strongly implies iblees was of the malaika, but as we know, malaika do as ordered. So how do we resolve this contradiction? This was discussed in this thread.
IF iblees was designed not to SJD to/for mankind, where is the contradiction?
If Canon design a voice-activated printer, which always does as requested, then its engineer says to it "laminate a document" and it does not laminate, where is the contradiction? To me, it needs clarified. It would only be a contradiction if it was said to it "print a document" and it did not print.
To determine whether it is a contradiction or not we have to know what it was designed to do.
I just realised, in AQ it seems to suggest specific malaika for specific tasks, they have a remit, they have control over a certain thing, which would also make sense with the above.
If a better answer can be given, I am all ears.
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Peace Wakas,
I fail to see the contradiction
We said to the malaika SJD to/for adam/mankind, but iblees did not SJD.
The above strongly implies iblees was of the malaika, but as we know, malaika do as ordered. So how do we resolve this contradiction? This was discussed in this thread.
IF iblees was designed not to SJD to/for mankind, where is the contradiction?
If Canon design a voice-activated printer, which always does as requested, then its engineer says to it "laminate a document" and it does not laminate, where is the contradiction? To me, it needs clarified. It would only be a contradiction if it was said to it "print a document" and it did not print.
To determine whether it is a contradiction or not we have to know what it was designed to do.
I just realised, in AQ it seems to suggest specific malaika for specific tasks, they have a remit, they have control over a certain thing, which would also make sense with the above.
If a better answer can be given, I am all ears.
712
said "What prevented you that not you prostrate tasjuda when I commanded you?"
said "I am better than him. You created me from fire and You created him from clay."That is disobedience of a direct command thus designed with autonomy to agree/disagree.
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Peace brother Wakas,
Can you clarify where you get these statements from
However, when he disobeyed, it was taken away from him.
If any "controlling force" disobeys the god then he would cease to be a "controlling force".I got them from your statement here
God could take it away.
You agreed that being a "controlling force" is something that can be given to any creature and taken away by the god from any creature. We know that "contolling forces" do not disobey the god. Since this is a status that can be given or taken away by the god then saying that "controlling forces do not disobey the god" as a general principle is like saying "good students do not get bad grades". The minute a good student gets bad grades, he stops being a "good student". This is exactly like the minute a "controlling force" disobeys the god he stops being a "controlling force".
They should serve God, whether they do or not is a different matter, but as I said, "iblees" was designed not to SJD, thus did exactly as designed to do.
One serves the god by obeying him. If one is not obeying the god than he is not serving him. The design of the god is for "jinn" to serve him, and thus obey him. Clearly, Iblis was given freedom of choice and this is why the god asked him about why he disobeyed his command. Otherwise, the question would be meaningless.
Also, please remember that everything in the heavens and the earth does "sujud" (obedience) to the god. The god doesn't say everything except "jinn".
Peace,
Ayman
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peace Bro Ayman,
Thanks for the explanation.
I said "could" as I wasn't sure if it actually was taken away. The reason I still regard iblees as a controlling force is that I think iblees still has some remit of control, i.e. that part of our psyche that can be influenced by iblees. This seems to be clearly suggested in AQ, e.g. 716-17.
Also, you seem to be saying iblees is no longer a malaika, and is a jinn, but then you implied jinn serve/obey God, but in your view iblees does not. Can you clarify?
Clearly, Iblis was given freedom of choice and this is why the god asked him about why he disobeyed his command. Otherwise, the question would be meaningless.
It is interesting God asks "iblees" such a question, because obviously God is all-knowing. So I asked myself, why would God ask such a thing? To me, the answer was obvious, it is rhetorical, asked for our benefit, i.e. to tell the recipients of the narrative something.
Also, please remember that everything in the heavens and the earth does "sujud" (obedience) to the god. The god doesn't say everything except "jinn".
I have been studying this recently as it happens and my understanding is as follows. The above is also said of "aSLaMa", and "SaBiH". If there are other words/terms it says this for I'd be interested to know. To me, there is a difference between "aSLaMa" in the true sense, and the theoretical or superficial sense. For example, if someone submits to me and does what I tell them, it would be true to say they are in "submission" to me, BUT this does not tell us if they are doing it out of free choice, i.e. their own decision, or are just doing it for other reasons. Same can be said of SJD. If someone obeys me, they are in obedience to me, but this does not tell us if they are doing so because they out of free choice etc. That is why everything in universe SJD/SLM/SBH, it is only those who do so out of their own free choice will succeed.
I asked myself, what these terms have in common and I realised they are terms that have a power-relation paradigm, they have something inherent about them that is a subordination component. I would be interested to know if this observation holds for any other terms.
