Jesus, Virgin Births, Miracles, Symbolisms.
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Some people are not accepting this miricle birth because no father means a son of god?? are you crazy???
who said that?
but where is my miracle, i wanna see it, if they were shown a miracle so they can believe, i wanna see one, i wanna see a stick turn into a snake, a man walk out of burning fire, a man make a bird and give it life.... i wanna see so i may believe...
people try to proove by the quran that jesus was conceived from sperm, thank god i know arabic, they say everyone is made out of "noutfa" , ofcourse, everyone is made out of nutfa, but nutfa isn't sperm, it's the femele's egg, sperm is called in quran 'maniy' , we're all from nutfa , even jesus , but maniy, maybe except jesus and adam and allah know best if there is others
anyway, i learned arabic, frensh is my first language though, and according to these people who say that allah says something but he means something else, that's exactly my argument when i use to go to church, whent i ask something that soesn't make sens they tell me actually god , meaning jesus is saying this but what he means is something else, these people are saying that god didn't speak arabic fluently so we have to decypher what he really meant , that's crazy in my opinion
Jesus the son of mary was pure , and his mother was a chaste woman mentioned by name, but what about his father??? dissapeared ? allah ignored him ? why allah made us know that ismael and isaak are abrahams childrens, solomon was david's son, but jesus son of a woman?
this doesn't make jesus a supernatural beign or so special , he actually is a nobody if it wasn't for allah who chose him and made him a messenger and saved him, so Jesus is someone great and a sign to us by his miraculous birth, thanks to allah who made mohamed clear him of all the lies and made it clear to us about his birth
Some people they feel the ascended spiritually, the figured it out all , the message of the quran means something else , it doesn't mean what is litterally written, than it's better for them to write another quran that is more clear to us, for allah made his quran very difficult to understand according to them , ciao
first, i don't know why you keep mentioning you know arabic, who cares, you think you understand quran more now?
doesn't matter if you speak it, what matters is the intellect, the reasoning,...
look at all people in middle east, they speak arabic, do they really understand what quran says?anyway, second point is... why you so focused on miracle births and details of jesus... don't you think you should focus on what it says, the moral story of it all, what lesson you can get from that...
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I don't speak it , but i can read it , and the reason i keep saying this is because of the past i guess, i been lied to and found out, sorry if i annoyed u , for this is what i do most of the times,, annoying people, whether i like it or not, i will keep annoying u unless i leave this forum and go watch a basketball game you're not the 1st one who been annoyed by me in this forum. but i don't do it in purpose , as for arabic language, i'm not that good
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nerspi
I don't think there's really a moral story in this one, for
allah said his bith is a sign to mankind
similitude between adam and Jesus
so Adam was a descendant of a woman who was homosapien,
this is the only lesson i can get from this story
maybe allah want us to know how adam and his wife been created
we created you of on single person ( in feminine) and we created from her her mate
i think adam was a husband of his mother, for at that time there was no law , just like my cat who has babies with his mom
hopefully my resoning doesn't sound sick and annoy you ; ciao -
hehe, no you don't annoy me, far from it, if you did i wouldn't be replying to you at all....
and no, it just reminded me of many people i met who feel superior because they speak arabic
hey everyone's entitled to their opinion, sure, i just disagree with yours, about adam (and his mom)....
there are many threads about adams story, to me the one makes most sense and very logical and reasonable is that adam is refering to mankind, whole humanity, when God talks about creation of adam, it's a story of creation of all humankind...and when quran was coming, people already believed falsehood about many things, and quran did come to correct some things, so jesus's creation is same as adam's (and adam is refering to humanity in general), so jesus was born like resu of mankind (male, female)
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adam is refering to humanity in general !!! never thaught of it that way, makes perfect sense to me, so i better leave the theory of adam as fiest father and stick with my homosapiens ancestors lol , i really believe that homosapiens are decendants of aother humanoids or i don't know who , but because adam means man and women, than the evolution is true
about the virgin birth of jesus , i just couldn't read between lines, everytime i read it it sounds to me like confirming my belief, unless nobody touched me isn't sexual, and blowing from my spirit isn't to show a miracle, because before we born allah blow from his spirit in all our mothers woumbs, we just don't know what that means, maybe the X Y chromosoms that get throwed from men into the woman, anyway, i am limited in knowlege to go too philosophical , i myght end up annoying you again LOL Peace -
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As for the one who maintained her virginity, we blew into her from our spirit, and thus, we made her and her son a portent for the whole world.maintained her virginity is false ....... ( Ahsanat faradjaha ) litterly means - protected/locked her sex like wedlock, how do a woman do that? through marriage according to ancient time , to stay chaste woman, The Qur?an used the word Hasan in the verses 2119 and 6612 in the form of Ahsanat-frjaha , which means Miriam locked her chastity in the fortress of wedlock.
ALlah knows best -
And We created you (plural), then We shaped you (plural), then We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam;" so they submitted except for Iblees, he was not of those who submitted.
Also
359 The nature of Jesus, according to God, is like that of Adam He (God) created him from dust, then He said to him, "Be," so he is.
Bottom line Jesus was created just like the rest of the human race (= "Adam".
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And We created you (plural), then We shaped you (plural), then We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam;" so they submitted except for Iblees, he was not of those who submitted.
Reading upto Aayat 19 will make the point clear, that both issues are different before "Summa" and after it.
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peace Mazhar,
What I asked you in the other thread was very simple. You imply a certain thing about "summa", if so, please cite your reference and state whether this is the case when "summa" is used in The Quran.
I have mentioned it a few times. It can be seen here
Perception and meanings; and occasion of use
The word "and" or "then" as a substitute of """"are conjunction, denoting order and a delay giving the perception of a sequence "after that, afterwards, next, as a consequence". It also gives informal perception of "in addition to, as well as, along with, coupled with, combined with, furthermore, likewise". And it reflects the relationship of cause and effect.
Both these English words and the Arabic particles reflect a sequence of happenings/things which are interrelated. And one does not perceive the distance of time between the two things mentioned before and after the use of word "and" or "then". It reflects the continuity in the two things conjunct by them though delay in the order of happenings is evident with respect to the thing occurring after them in relation to the one occurring before them.
But particle "Summa" is used in a distinct manner. It occurs as conjunction between two things different from each other in nature and reflects a break and time gap between both, not continuity. It does not reflect the perception of relationship of cause and effect. At its very first occurrence in the Quran, the meanings of it have been made quite evident, vivid and distinct.
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peace Mazhar,
Once again, you have not answered what I asked. See here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601474.msg264871#msg264871Let me make it clear another time, YOU said "Please note in 711 presence of particle "Summa" that indicates that two initial steps of creation of him didn't need mention/reiteration-are supressed having been mentioned about us, i.e. creation and preening."
I consider the above baseless and false until proven otherwise. In follow up posts in that thread you never presented any evidence, just like now.
And now you say "thumma" conjuncts two things different in nature, and your link only selects specific examples. I consider this claim baseless until proven otherwise also. Not that I strongly disagree with it, but its unproven nonetheless. For those interested they can read "thumma" occurrences in AQ here
http//islam.thetruecall.com/modules.php?name=Quran&squery=thumma&func=phone -
peace Mazhar,
Once again, you have not answered what I asked. See here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601474.msg264871#msg264871Let me make it clear another time, YOU said "Please note in 711 presence of particle "Summa" that indicates that two initial steps of creation of him didn't need mention/reiteration-are supressed having been mentioned about us, i.e. creation and preening."
I consider the above baseless and false until proven otherwise. In follow up posts in that thread you never presented any evidence, just like now.
And now you say "thumma" conjuncts two things different in nature, and your link only selects specific examples. I consider this claim baseless until proven otherwise also. Not that I strongly disagree with it, but its unproven nonetheless. For those interested they can read "thumma" occurrences in AQ here
http//islam.thetruecall.com/modules.php?name=Quran&squery=thumma&func=phonePeace Wakas.
Your primary insistence is to treat Adam as "representative of humanity"
Mazhar, you are right, "adam" can be a specific person, but he is used as representative of mankind. This is blatantly obvious in some contexts, e.g. 711.
And I am suggesting that at all 25 occurrences word Adam is a Proper Noun, referring to one individual. Even in 711 Adam is a singular Proper Noun.
Anything mentioned after "Summa" cannot be prior in time frame than the one mentioned before "Summa". No grammarian and translator would suggest contrary to it. What confuses you is the mention of episode of "prostration" after the mention of our creation and preening whereby you think "Adam" as "representative of humanity" since you use the word "then" meaning after our creation and preening the episode of prostration took place. This is plainly against the information vividly given in Qur'aan in plenty about the sequence of creation of Adam and then his posterity. The prostration episode took place immediately on creation of Adam. None of us had been created then.
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peace Mazhar,
Once again, no evidence presented.
Not only that, your view is still contradictory in my opinion. See thread I linked to.
No further comment from me on this subject unless evidence is actually presented.
Peace Wakas,
What sort of evidence you need despite the point raised by you having been addressed?
And what is the evidence you have to suggest "Adam" as "representative of humanity" instead of a proper noun.
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peace Mazhar,
Let's take this one step at a time if we are both sincere. YOU said
"Please note in 711 presence of particle "Summa" that indicates that two initial steps of creation of him didn't need mention/reiteration-are supressed having been mentioned about us, i.e. creation and preening."Please cite a Classical Arabic dictionary or grammar book reference with page number, and ideally type up what it says so we can see. Better yet, provide Quranic evidence for your above claim.
If you cannot do the above, retract your statement or clarify and say "this is my understanding/interpretation of it".
What I have asked you is very simple.
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"Please note in 711 presence of particle "Summa" that indicates that two initial steps of creation of him didn't need mention/reiteration-are supressed having been mentioned about us, i.e. creation and preening."
Peace Wakas,
It seems you have agreed with this .
Describing it technically "Summa"- This connective particle is an adverb that indicates a sequential action, coming later in time than the action in the preceding sentence or clause.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/007.%20Al%20Airaaf/Temp%2001%207.011.gif
And indeed We have created you the living people , afterwards We shaped you people;This fact relates to living humanity and refers to an already happened fact. Evidently this happened fact relates to a point in time much after the creation of Adam and prostration. Therefore the following sentence is not its continuation but a new one, which took place afterwards the preening/shaping, and taking existence by Adam
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/007.%20Al%20Airaaf/Temp%2001%207.011b.gif
afterwards the preening/shaping, We had said for the Angels "You show obeisance for Adam" -
peace Mazhar,
Thanks for clarifying. I see what you are saying now. Basically, to resolve the problem/contradiction in your view you are forced to claim ""Please note in 711 presence of particle "Summa" that indicates that two initial steps of creation of him didn't need mention/reiteration-are supressed having been mentioned about us, i.e. creation and preening."
A completely made up statement. In other words, you can provide no Classical Arabic dictionary or grammar book or Quranic evidence for your view.
So, lets clarify for all readers to see
And certainly We created you (plural), thumma/thereafter We shaped you (plural), thumma/thereafter We said to the angels "Yield to Adam;" so they yielded except for Satan, he was not of those who yielded.
Mazhar claims the first "thumma" refers to us, i.e. the same event before and after first "thumma", but the second "thumma" goes back in time prior to the event just mentioned and talks about "adam" and not us.
Wakas claims "thumma" means the same thing the first time as it does the second time, showing the parable of adam is indeed representative of mankind. For discussion on the parable of adam, see chapter 10 of this book, and in my post here.
