Jesus, Virgin Births, Miracles, Symbolisms.
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peace Mazhar,
What I asked you in the other thread was very simple. You imply a certain thing about "summa", if so, please cite your reference and state whether this is the case when "summa" is used in The Quran.
I have mentioned it a few times. It can be seen here
Perception and meanings; and occasion of use
The word "and" or "then" as a substitute of """"are conjunction, denoting order and a delay giving the perception of a sequence "after that, afterwards, next, as a consequence". It also gives informal perception of "in addition to, as well as, along with, coupled with, combined with, furthermore, likewise". And it reflects the relationship of cause and effect.
Both these English words and the Arabic particles reflect a sequence of happenings/things which are interrelated. And one does not perceive the distance of time between the two things mentioned before and after the use of word "and" or "then". It reflects the continuity in the two things conjunct by them though delay in the order of happenings is evident with respect to the thing occurring after them in relation to the one occurring before them.
But particle "Summa" is used in a distinct manner. It occurs as conjunction between two things different from each other in nature and reflects a break and time gap between both, not continuity. It does not reflect the perception of relationship of cause and effect. At its very first occurrence in the Quran, the meanings of it have been made quite evident, vivid and distinct.
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peace Mazhar,
Once again, you have not answered what I asked. See here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601474.msg264871#msg264871Let me make it clear another time, YOU said "Please note in 711 presence of particle "Summa" that indicates that two initial steps of creation of him didn't need mention/reiteration-are supressed having been mentioned about us, i.e. creation and preening."
I consider the above baseless and false until proven otherwise. In follow up posts in that thread you never presented any evidence, just like now.
And now you say "thumma" conjuncts two things different in nature, and your link only selects specific examples. I consider this claim baseless until proven otherwise also. Not that I strongly disagree with it, but its unproven nonetheless. For those interested they can read "thumma" occurrences in AQ here
http//islam.thetruecall.com/modules.php?name=Quran&squery=thumma&func=phone -
peace Mazhar,
Once again, you have not answered what I asked. See here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601474.msg264871#msg264871Let me make it clear another time, YOU said "Please note in 711 presence of particle "Summa" that indicates that two initial steps of creation of him didn't need mention/reiteration-are supressed having been mentioned about us, i.e. creation and preening."
I consider the above baseless and false until proven otherwise. In follow up posts in that thread you never presented any evidence, just like now.
And now you say "thumma" conjuncts two things different in nature, and your link only selects specific examples. I consider this claim baseless until proven otherwise also. Not that I strongly disagree with it, but its unproven nonetheless. For those interested they can read "thumma" occurrences in AQ here
http//islam.thetruecall.com/modules.php?name=Quran&squery=thumma&func=phonePeace Wakas.
Your primary insistence is to treat Adam as "representative of humanity"
Mazhar, you are right, "adam" can be a specific person, but he is used as representative of mankind. This is blatantly obvious in some contexts, e.g. 711.
And I am suggesting that at all 25 occurrences word Adam is a Proper Noun, referring to one individual. Even in 711 Adam is a singular Proper Noun.
Anything mentioned after "Summa" cannot be prior in time frame than the one mentioned before "Summa". No grammarian and translator would suggest contrary to it. What confuses you is the mention of episode of "prostration" after the mention of our creation and preening whereby you think "Adam" as "representative of humanity" since you use the word "then" meaning after our creation and preening the episode of prostration took place. This is plainly against the information vividly given in Qur'aan in plenty about the sequence of creation of Adam and then his posterity. The prostration episode took place immediately on creation of Adam. None of us had been created then.
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peace Mazhar,
Once again, no evidence presented.
Not only that, your view is still contradictory in my opinion. See thread I linked to.
No further comment from me on this subject unless evidence is actually presented.
Peace Wakas,
What sort of evidence you need despite the point raised by you having been addressed?
And what is the evidence you have to suggest "Adam" as "representative of humanity" instead of a proper noun.
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peace Mazhar,
Let's take this one step at a time if we are both sincere. YOU said
"Please note in 711 presence of particle "Summa" that indicates that two initial steps of creation of him didn't need mention/reiteration-are supressed having been mentioned about us, i.e. creation and preening."Please cite a Classical Arabic dictionary or grammar book reference with page number, and ideally type up what it says so we can see. Better yet, provide Quranic evidence for your above claim.
If you cannot do the above, retract your statement or clarify and say "this is my understanding/interpretation of it".
What I have asked you is very simple.
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"Please note in 711 presence of particle "Summa" that indicates that two initial steps of creation of him didn't need mention/reiteration-are supressed having been mentioned about us, i.e. creation and preening."
Peace Wakas,
It seems you have agreed with this .
Describing it technically "Summa"- This connective particle is an adverb that indicates a sequential action, coming later in time than the action in the preceding sentence or clause.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/007.%20Al%20Airaaf/Temp%2001%207.011.gif
And indeed We have created you the living people , afterwards We shaped you people;This fact relates to living humanity and refers to an already happened fact. Evidently this happened fact relates to a point in time much after the creation of Adam and prostration. Therefore the following sentence is not its continuation but a new one, which took place afterwards the preening/shaping, and taking existence by Adam
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/007.%20Al%20Airaaf/Temp%2001%207.011b.gif
afterwards the preening/shaping, We had said for the Angels "You show obeisance for Adam" -
peace Mazhar,
Thanks for clarifying. I see what you are saying now. Basically, to resolve the problem/contradiction in your view you are forced to claim ""Please note in 711 presence of particle "Summa" that indicates that two initial steps of creation of him didn't need mention/reiteration-are supressed having been mentioned about us, i.e. creation and preening."
A completely made up statement. In other words, you can provide no Classical Arabic dictionary or grammar book or Quranic evidence for your view.
So, lets clarify for all readers to see
And certainly We created you (plural), thumma/thereafter We shaped you (plural), thumma/thereafter We said to the angels "Yield to Adam;" so they yielded except for Satan, he was not of those who yielded.
Mazhar claims the first "thumma" refers to us, i.e. the same event before and after first "thumma", but the second "thumma" goes back in time prior to the event just mentioned and talks about "adam" and not us.
Wakas claims "thumma" means the same thing the first time as it does the second time, showing the parable of adam is indeed representative of mankind. For discussion on the parable of adam, see chapter 10 of this book, and in my post here.
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Peace,
And We created you (plural), then We shaped you (plural), then We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam;" so they submitted except for Iblees, he was not of those who submitted.
Use substitution ...
4913
O mankind! yayyuh l-nsu indeed, We inn created you khalaqnkum from min a male dhakarin and female wa-unth711
We created you khalaqnkum (from a male and a female), furthermore We fashioned you, furthermore We said to the malikati "usjud to Adam."Not a chronological sequence of events;
same as when reading Qur'an which whole of the book needs to taken into consideration to get the right view. -
First to understand the story of Jesus, his normal birth like everyone else, there is key words that were distorted from their original meaning, they modified the lmeaning of the word using hadiths
first , we study the word ROOH, what does it mean? does it mean a spirit in the judeo-christian meaning, or is it something else
so we first study the word rooh before we go into the subject. and some other sentences , what do they mean now and what do they mean in the quran.The first , they translate the verse 1785, and the answer is as if god is saying it's none of your business, but in reality, what comes after that question, is exactly the answer of what Roouh is!
in this case, Rouh is the Quran. the commands in it.And they ask you concerning the Rooh. Say Rooh is from the command of my Lord; and the knowledge you were given was but very little. And if We wished, We would take away that which We have inspired to you. Then you would not find for yourself with it against Us a caretaker. 1785-86
The command of God will come, so do not hasten it. Be He glorified and exalted above the partners they set up.
He sends down the angels with the Rooh by His command upon whom He wishes of His servants That you shall warn that there is no god except I, so be aware of Me 161-3And thus, We inspired to you a Rooh of Our command. You did not know what was the Book, nor what was faith. Yet, We made this a light to guide whoever We wish from among Our servants. Surely, you guide to a straight path. 4252
Say The Holy Rooh has brought it down from your Lord with the truth, so that those who believe will be strengthened, and as a guidance and good news for those who have submitted 16102
God makes firm those who believe with firm sayings in the worldly life, and in the Hereafter. And God misguides the wicked, and God does what He wishes. 1427
It was sent down with the trusted Rooh.
Upon your heart, so that you would be of the warners.. 26193-194Possessor of the highest ranks, the One with the Throne. He sends the Spirit with His command upon whom He wills from His servants, that they may warn of the Day of Summoning.. 4015
The angels and the Rooh come down in it with the permission of their Lord to carry out every matter. 974
let's study how god create with the Rooh
Initiator of the heavens and the earth, when He decrees a command, He merely says to it Be, and it is. 2117
God was to enforce a command that was already done 842.
It is thus that God creates what He wills, when He decrees a command, He merely says to it Be, and it is 347
God was never to take a son, be He glorified. If He decrees a command, then He simply says to it Be, and it is. 1935
He is the One who gives life and death. And when He decides upon anything, He simply says to it Be, and it is. 4068
What does NAFAKH FIHI mean ?
And He is the One who has created the heavens and the earth with the truth, and the day He says Be, then it is! His saying is truth; and to Him is the sovereignty the Day the trumpet is blown. Knower of the unseen and the seen; He is the Wise, the Expert. 673
God doesn't say words like US, that is why he says Nafakh min Rohihi( and explain it to us in other verses , as he says be and it is )
So when I evolve him, and blow from My Rooh in him, you shall yield to him 1529
And We left them until that day to surge like waves on one another. And the horn was blown so We gathered them together.1599
Then He evolved him, and blew into him from His Spirit. And He made for you the hearing, the eyesight, and the hearts; rarely are you thankful. 329
let's go to Miriam
So her Lord accepted her a good acceptance, and made her grow into a good growth, and charged Zachariah 369
The book of Zakariah
Zakariah gave the news to Miriam of Her son a prophet the massih, it's not her who received this revelation, but zakariah, and she received the news from zakariah. for the angels spoke to zakariah.So the angels called to him while he was standing, making contact, in the temple enclosure God gives you glad tidings of John, authenticating the word from God, and a master, and steadfast, and a prophet from the upright 339
And the angels said O Mary, God has selected you and cleansed you, and He has selected you over all the women of the worlds.342
O Mary, be dutiful to your Lord and prostrate and kneel with those who kneel.
And the angels said O Mary, God gives you glad tidings of a word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary. Honorable in this world and in the Hereafter, and from among those who are made close 345
Zakariah giving the news and presenting her her husband
And relate in the Book, Mary, when she withdrew herself from her family to a place which was to the east. 1916
So she took a barrier to separate her from them, so We sent Our Spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a human being in all similarity. 1917
She said I seek refuge with the Almighty from you if you are righteous 1918
He said It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. And We shall make him a sign for the people and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained. 1919
She said How can I have a son when no human being has been with me, nor have I desired such? 1920
He said It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. And We shall make him a sign for the people and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained. 1921
(Lam Yamssassni Bashar), meaning sexual touching by husband to his wife after marriage
Those who had estranged their women, then they retracted what they had said, they shall free a slave before they have sexual contact between them. 583
If he cannot find any, then he shall fast two consecutive months before any sexual contact between them 584
O you who believe, if you marry the believing females, then divorce them before having intercourse with them, 3349
(Wa Lam Akou Baghiya)meaning Sexe outside of marriage
And do not force your young women to prostitution they have desired to be married 2433
The marriage of Miriam
And Mary, daughter of Imran, who maintained the chastity of her private part, so We blew into it from Our Spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Books; and she was of those who were dutiful. 6612 , 2191
Ahsanat , comes from the word fortress, Hosn, it is fortress through Wedlock, she locked her chastity. for women who guard their chastity, in general for married and unmarried men and women, allah use the word HAFADH, exemple
Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, for that is better for them. God is fully aware of what you do. 2430
As for AHSANAT? is always protecting chastity through wedlock.
exempleAnd those who accuse the married women, then they do not bring forth four witnesses, you shall lash them with eighty lashes, and do not accept their testimony ever; and those are the wicked. 244
Surely, those who accuse the married innocent believing women, they will be cursed in this world and the Hereafter, and they will have a painful retribution. 2423
And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those who are maintained by your oaths seek to consummate the marriage, then document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you. And do not force your young women to prostitution if they have desired to be married, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. And if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.. 2433
You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. When they become married, then any of them who come with lewdness shall have half of what is the punishment for those independent wives. This is for those who are concerned about deviating from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful. 425
AS u can see , Miriam get married to get the child according to the rules of Allah.
How did god create men
( (
The One who perfected everything He created and He began the creation of man from clay. Then He made his offspring from a structure derived from a lowly liquid. Then He evolved him, and blew into him from His Spirit. And He made for you the hearing, the eyesight, and the hearts; rarely are you thankful. 327-9
O people, if you are in doubt as to the resurrection, then We have created you from dust, then from a seed, then from an embryo, then from a fetus developed and undeveloped so that We make it clear to you. And We settle in the wombs what We wish to an appointed time, then We bring you out a child 225
And God created you from dust, then from a seed 3511
As you can see, we all come from the acids and minerals that are in the tilth, that get absorbed by plants , and aten by our fathers, to get into his bloodstream to go and form a sperm that goes into the womb etc... until we're born
same thing for jesus, just like same thing for adam.The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him Be and he was.359
here you can see that Jesus came from Tourab ( earth ) and passed by the whole proces before getting born
vERSES? EVIDENCE OF NO VIRGIN BIRTH
There is no changing in the creation of God. 3030
This is the way of God with those who have passed away before, and you will not find any change in the way of God.. 3362
You will not find any change in the way of God, and you will not find any bypass to the way of God. 3543
Such is the way of God with those who have passed away before, and you will not find any change in the way of God. 4823
<hr>
All messengers before Mohamed had been married and had children.included Jesus.
And We have sent messengers before you and We have made for them mates and offspring 1338
All messengers before mohamed, had familys, mothers and fathers, included Jesus
( ( ( ( (
And such was Our argument that We gave Abraham over his people We raise the degree of whom We please. Your Lord is Wise, Knowledgeable.
And We granted him Isaac and Jacob, both of whom We guided and Noah We guided from before
and from his progeny is David, and Solomon, and Job, and Joseph, and Moses, and Aaron. It is such that We recompense the good doers.
And Zachariah and John, and Jesus, and Elias all were from the upright.
And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot; and each We have preferred over the worlds.
And from their fathers and their progeny and their brothers We have also chosen; and We guided them to a straight path.
684-87<hr>
As you can see in the above post, everything is clear that jesus was born through a naturel marriage, except confusion in thses verses 1916-21 , because of the meaning of the word Rooh concept.And relate in the Book, Mary, when she withdrew herself from her family to a place which was to the east. 1916
So she took a barrier to separate her from them, so We sent Our Spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a human being in all similarity. 1917
We sent he our command ( the command was sent by the one who KAFALAH, as allah already said who was charged with her, it was Zakariah
The commmand sent with Zakariah to present for her her husband, who was not from the synagogue, for Miriam was bond to celibacy, and was frightenend from the Rabbis who abused all girls. see 1916
The messenger is Zakariah who gave her the news, he said that i am a messenger, meaning, bringing you a message from god, about a child
here she was amazed of these good news, and questioned what shall be done.
Here Zakariah telling her that it is a command from god, and it sall be done.
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peace loxbox13,
It is a pity you spent time making the above post when it contains no credible points, nothing that I would call evidence and certainly not "clear" as you claimed.
Each to their own.
sorry about it, i am convinced that Jesus was orn as naturel as anybody else, and these verses , contains key words
I admit that I am no expert and far from been good at explaining a point of view, for I am no teacher and don't have the gift to teach.
What I suggest is, study the word Rooh, and you will find out it doesn't mean spirit. at least not in the sens of christians and jews. study the word Ahsanat , for it doesn't mean freed, but married, study the word Lams , it doesn't mean sex, butlegal sex, etc...the story is veiled behind misconception of words, that beeen modified in the meaning with ahadiths etc...
If you like, I can post all the verses that contain the word rooh, and we keep this word transliterated with out translating it , so we can get to the true meaning of this word, and than we post the verses about Lams ..etc
it is not easy to see it, took me 4 months, when i saw it clearly, i was amazed, how hadiths are simply magic that play on the mind of people.
sorry if you didn't grasp it, but , can u point to what is unclear ?
salam bro
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Rouh is the Quran. the commands in it.
Peace loxbox13, your post is all over the place and contradicting every other sentence; don't really know where begin and suggest bringing one concise thought at a time and throughly resolving instead of plastering verses. Example, you wrote "Rouh is the Quran. the commands in it" which is contradicting ...
16102 Say, "Has brought it down ru l-qudusi (masculine noun) from your Lord
Thus cannot be "it" or Qur'an has brought down Qur'an?
Another example... You wrote "Zakariah giving the news and presenting her her husband"
342 And when said the angels, "O Maryam!...
Was it the angels and ruh or Zakariah who gave the news?
1917 Then We sent to her ran then he assumed for her the likeness (of) a man well-proportioned.
Was it ruhana or as you claim Zakariah or as you claim Qur'an assumed the likeness of a man?
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sorry if you didn't grasp it, but , can u point to what is unclear ?
Try bringing your strongest point forward, i.e. pick one word that does not mean what many think it to mean, according to you, and present your strongest evidence for it.
So we can see the strength/quality of your argument.
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Try bringing your strongest point forward, i.e. pick one word that does not mean what many think it to mean, according to you, and present your strongest evidence for it.
So we can see the strength/quality of your argument.
I will, gimme time to phrase my words correctly
exemple, i will bring the Evidence that Miriam didn't hear any angels in her life, not did she speak to any holy spirit. in other words, Miriam only received the news from Zakariah, and never received any revelation directly to her
the misconceptions are hereMiriam didn't receive any revelation
Miriam said i am not married nor doing anything Illegally
The answer for this, was it is easy for allah. therefore it is not talking about the foetus, but the command of all the process of her marriage to the conception.I will redo, but first, we have to clear the meaning of Rooh, so I will post the study of the word Rouh , and even Nafs, wich doesn't mean spirit, nor Soul. and than it become easy to see clear.
first attempt , i thaught it will be convincing , but my bet. i guess it is not clear, and it has to be clearer than this , because, the RIJSS on us is too big, and it was the works of centuries.
peace.
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Salaaman LB13, Wakas, all,
It is a pity you spent time making the above post when it contains no credible points, nothing that I would call evidence and certainly not "clear" as you claimed.
I have to agree with Wakas. Do not mix up everything together, lets analyse 359-60 now.
359
359 The example of Jesus with Allah is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him Be and he was.
You missed the point here brother. With Allah Eisa (AS) is similar to Adam. Why Allah compared Eisa (AS) with Adam and why not with others, what is the exact similarity between them?
The explanation is in the same aayat
1- He created HIM from dust.
2- THEN He said to HIM be and he was.None of the creation fall under this procedure, look at how others are created
225
225 O people, if you are in doubt as to the resurrection, then We have created you from dust, then from a seed, then from an embryo, then from a fetus developed and undeveloped so that We make it clear to you. And We settle in the wombs what We wish to an appointed time, then We bring you out a child, then you reach your maturity, and of you are those who will pass away, and of you are those who are sent to an old age where he will not be able to learn any new knowledge after what he already has. And you see the land still, but when We send down the water
Do you see the difference brother? After creating from dust "SUMMA" the procedure changed.
So, Allah said in the next aayat
360
360 The truth is from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.
Another evidence of similarity between Eisa (AS) and Adam is the Rooh was blown to give both life.
1529
1529 So when I evolve him, and blow from My Rooh in him, you shall yield to him.
The Rooh was blown to give Adam life.
2191
2191 And the one who protected her chastity, so We blew into her from Our Rooh, and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.
The Rooh was blown to give Eisa (AS) life.
InshaAllah, we will discuss other points also.
May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan
