Trouble with such differing views
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Salaam Sis,
I hope this post finds you well. I do feel for what you are going through and personally, I concurred what Sis Rraza said. I have met some amazing and kind-hearted people, but ultimately they hold different beliefs. Right now, I keep telling myself, that it should be no problem developing relationship with God-alone person, as we serve just One God. I tell myself, it should be okay to consider Unitarian Christian, God-Alone Jew or whatever because in the end, we believe in the same One God and will strive together. After all, it?s Muslims/Christians etc are just labels, right? Ideally, it will be okay. Then I realise that, for me personally (don?t know about the others), I may be deceiving myself.
Personally, I desire the type of bond/love that fulfills me emotionally, physically and spiritually. I think a relationship based on spirituality, will complete as a person. Imagine the feeling of happiness (I think it?s more than that), when you feel down, then your partner comforts you by quoting the Qur?an, or regularly encouraging you to study the Qur?an together sighs. I may be able to do that with other ?type? of God-alone person, but I don?t feel the feeling will be as rewarding.
But I guess that is a fact of life that we have to face, really. I think in the case of interfaith marriages, I admire those who can make it work, because I don?t think I can. I fully respect other people?s beliefs and do the whole ?unto you your Way, unto me Mine? kinda thing, but when it comes to marriage and my other half, I guess it?s different. Respecting another?s belief is one thing, but to live and to make it part of your life is another thing. I cannot help but feeling some sense of emptiness or detachment from time to time if I have to live with someone with different belief. It would dishearten me not to have the connection and the conviction in the Scripture that he follows. I mean, I would have no problem quoting the Bible or other Scripture, but I would not have that conviction and belief when I do that. It would hurt me not being able to provide that for my partner, and vice versa. Also, I hate to think that I may start being ?softer? and compromising my own beliefs for the sake of respecting his belief and making him happy, as it has previously happened to me.
Funny, because that is what I am feeling right now. Just the thought of having to go through that, saddens me. That being said, I believe God will provide what is best for us. A believer is for a believer. A good man is for a good woman. I?m sure God will send someone who completes us, if we walk on His path.
Anyway, enough for my selfish rambling. I don?t know why I turned emo there >.<. May God give us the strength. Salaam.
Salaam bornagain. It seems that a lot of things are ok in theory. I think realism is a good thing - not that we shouldn't keep striving for bettering ourselves but to expect more than we can realistically come up with doesn't always work out to well. As you said, you feel you might be decieving yourself...me too
I can really relate to what you said about supporting each other through Quran. I had that, and it was wonderful...but sadly it was mixed with hadith. Life is complicated. I'm also a bit soft too. I really just assumed a lot would work out when I should have been making sure it was going to. Well, you can never be sure, but at least doing more to make sure.
group
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the amount of hardship you face in interfaith marriages, or diff beliefs marriages varies a lot depending on how much two ppl love each other and are willing to accept the other person as part and parcel of loving them.i think i have the capacity to love someone and respect them if they have values of a good muslim, even if they might not be...how a person acts has far more resounding affects on the family as compared to what he may only believe (as is the case with many ppl who claim to be of a certain faith, but have no idea of wat its all about)
its hard with kids, specially if theyr young, because then both parents feel its their responsibility to guide the kid to the Truth, or wat they might think it to be. in these situations its best to respect both religions, never to criticise/look down upon either, since by doing so we wud be demeaning our partners as well. but at the same time, encourage the kids to learn and think fr themselves frm an early age. but fr this to work both parents need to back off a bit, which is very very hard..only two people who love each other and respect each other a LOT can do this. -
Peace all
The last three years I have dated different women in the country I live in. I was attracted to them, but none of them had the belief system that I look for in a woman. I didn't have a physical relationship with any of them, it was only mental dating. I didn't kiss any of them. We met and we talked with eachother, about life and other things. None of them followed islam based on Quran. One of them was a sunni muslim, and the other women I dated said they believed in God. The last girl I dated was Asian. One of my friends introduced her to me in the University. After talking with eachother in the University, we immediately found out that we had many things in common. We had things in common when it came to interests, and our personality types were similar. We were both social and outgoing, and we had similar views about life. She was attracted to me and I was attracted to her.
We met eachother a couple of times. She even bought a dinner for me in an asian restaurant once. I made it clear to her from the beginning, that I want to have a mental relationship, before it gets romantic. She accepted it. But after a while, she became impatient, and wanted to bring our mental relationship to the next level. I told her that we should be friends for a while, and then see what happens. But she couldn't accept it. My friend told me that kissing is not wrong, and that having a physical relationship is not wrong, and that I should continue to get to know her. I told him that "I won't break my values for no one." No verse in the Quran tells us that we can't kiss anyone or have a physical relationship. But from my understanding of the Quran, we should follow the best of it. And we should be as moral as possible. And the most ideal and moral thing to do, is to wait until marriage before having a physical relationship with someone. The woman I dated was a nice woman. She was interested in discussions about life, philosophy, psychology, and lots of other things which I also like. But me and her were too different when it came to the spiritual realm. She didn't care about islam, about self-betterment, contribution, and about getting more knowledge. She seemed to be content with the understanding of life she already had. One day, I told her about our differences, and that I think we should be friends instead. She hesitated, but accepted it after a while. I knew from the beginning that something was wrong. My inner voice, my intuition told me that I should stop getting to know her. But I didn't listen at first. We were likeminded when it came to many things on the physical realm, but not on the spiritual realm. However, I was in denial of reality. I thought I can change her, or show her the path of islam in a way that will enable her to walk in it. But as I already mentioned, she was not interested in islam. And she didn't want to explore the spiritual realm of the world.
After dating her, I decided that I am never going to get to know any one who doesn't have the same belief system as me again. I thought I can make her walk in the path of islam. But if someone is not ready for something, no amount of information will change them. As you know, only God can guide people. I have falled into this trap several times. I thought I can teach people about islam, so that they would follow my belief system. But only God can guide people.
Quran 2856
You cannot guide whom you love. But it is God who guides whom He wills; and He is fully aware of those who receive the guidance.How do you know if someone is the right one? Who is most compatible with you from all the men you have talked to? Who is the most compatible with you from all the women you have talked to? For example look in this forum. If you are a woman, who is the man who has inspired you the most? Or if you are a man, who is the woman that has inspired you the most? These rhetorical questions are highly relevant. If you are a woman and want to find the right one, just compare all the men you have talked to on this forum, and find out who has been most compatible with you when it comes to belief system. Or you can do another thing. Look in the Quran, and see if the men or women you have talked to have the criterias the Quran tells us they should have. Be totally honest with yourself.
The most compatible women for men who believe in God alone, are in this forum. They are not in the church, not in the mosque, not in the university. The most compatible men for women who believe in God alone, are in this forum. They are not in the church, not in the mosque, not in the university. We are like travelers who visit an island, and when we arrive on the island, we are asking where is the island? If you open your eyes, you will see that the island is right in front of you. If you open your eyes, you will see that the most compatible men are right in front of you. If you open your eyes, you will see that the most compatible women are right in front of you. Yes, they are here, in this forum. I remember a fascinating story by the name acres of diamond. A story we can learn a lesson from. The story is about a man who was living in the indus river, and desired to find diamonds, so much, that he sold off his property to a man, and traveled to palestine and europe to search for diamonds. He didn't find diamonds, and his health and wealth failed him. One day, the man who had purchased his property, found a diamond while he was digging in the property. And he digged more, and found acres of diamonds. The message of the story is clear. Why look for a diamond far away, when it is right in front of you? Sometimes what you are looking for is right in front of you. It is right in front of your eyes. Those who search for answers in the sky, will walk pass treasures in the land.
Refuse to listen to what type of man or woman your parents want you to marry. Let me put logic under the microscope so you can see it clearly. It is not your parents that are going to get married to the man or woman you like. Your parents will most likely focus on their self-interest. If they want your future partner to have the same ethnicity as you, they are focusing on their self-interest. If they want your future partner to have prestige or fame in the society, they are focusing on their self-interest. But your parents don't know who will make you happy. They don't know who is best for you. Most parents have not had happy marriages themselves, and still they want to tell their son and daughter who they should marry. Most parents have not experienced true love, and still they want to tell their son and daughter about what true love is. Isn't this strange? Isn't this illogical? What they do, is similar to a man that can't build a house, but want to teach others how to build a house. This is crazy. First a man has to learn how to build a house before he tries to teach others how to do it.
Many parents ask all the wrong questions when they hear that their son wants to get married. For example, parents that are sunnis might ask these questions. Is the girl you like rich? Is her family rich? Does she have a high education? Does she have a network that can help us? Is she a sunni muslim? Are her parents sunnis? Wow. Can you believe this? They ask their son if the woman she likes is a sunni. They ask him if the family of the woman she like is sunni. These questions are totally based on self-interest. And anyone who examines these questions can see this. Besides, these superficial and ignorant questions have nothing to do with love. If the parents followed the Quran, they would not ask such questions. They would instead ask the following. Is she aware of God? Is she moral? Does she have a good heart? What kind of talents does she have? What has she contributed to the society? Is she intelligent? Does she have an open mind? Does she have knowledge? How does she treat people? Does she believe in afterlife? Does she have healthy levels of self esteem. Unfortunately, I have never heard about any parents that ask their son or daughter these questions, or similar questions. Let me tell you something. It is not your parents that are going to get married to the man or woman you like. It is only you who are going to live with that person for the rest of your life. Your parents don't know who is the right one for you. Only you can know it. Nobody else knows it. So follow your heart.
Who has the same belief system as you? Which man or woman has the values the Quran tells you he or she should have? What you are looking for is often right in front of your nose. Wake up, open our eyes. Forget fairy tales. Forget hollywood. If you are waiting for the perfect man or woman with wings, to fly into your garden and knock on your door, then you will wait forever. Because the perfect man or woman will never come, and they won't have wings. Many people say, I have to get to know him or her 10 months before I know if he or she is the right one. Well, if you want to get know someone for that long, then he or she isn't the right one. You don't need to examine a diamond for several months to know if it is a diamond. If you know how a diamond looks like and what it consists of, you will almost immediately know if it is a diamond or not. You can easily see the difference between a diamond and a stone. If you get to know someone in your school, you don't need to evaluate that person for 10 months to know if he is friend. Thus, don't use more time than necessary. You will see if someone is the right one, very fast.If you know yourself and what you want in a partner, you will know if someone is compatible or not. And it will not take much time.
If someone is compatible with you, you will know it almost immediately. You don't need to be a scientist to know who is most compatible with you.You don't need to be a philosopher to know who is most compatible with you. When it comes to love, those who search far away, will not find it. Love is close, not far away. Love is not a treasure hidden miles under the earth. Love is close. The right one, is in front of you. You just need to open your eyes.You are like a person swimming in a vast ocean, and then you ask, where is water? You are like a person who walks around in a garden full of fruit three's, and then you ask, where is fruit? Open your eyes, and look. There is water all around you. There is fruit all around you. Pick the fruit you like the most from a three. When it comes to the right one, cleanse your mind from all man-made criterias, and only look into the Quran. Judge with the Quran. The Quran has all the answers you need.
Here are some questions you can ask yourself if you want to get to know someone who believes in God alone. Is the person aware of God, is the person God-fearing? How is his or her understanding of the Quran? Is the person moral? Is the person intelligent? How does he or she treat people? Does he or she have knowledge and understanding? Can you have an intellectual conversation with the person? Do you think the person will stimulate you mentally? Do you think the person can inspire you? Do you think he or she can make you a better person? When you are looking for the right one, observe their moral code, character, talents, substance. Don't look at his or her image, it will deceive you. Forget about appearances, it is superfical. Look into the reality. The reason many people marry someone who has a different belief system than them, is because they don't have the patience to wait for the right one. And because they want to find someone in their own country. Is this love? Is this honesty? No, this is calculation. This is cold. Love is not mathmatics. Love does not calculate. Love is concerned with feelings. Mathmatics is not concerned with feelings. You can never feel that ten plus ten equals 20. You can think it, but not feel it. Keep mathmatics out of love. Don't ask the following questions. Is he or she rich? Is he or she famous? Does he or she live far away? Is he or she beautiful like a model? All these questions are calculation. Cut the crap. This is all nonsense when it comes to love. Marriage is not a business deal. Love is not business. Love does not ask, where does he or she live, does he or she live far away? Love does not ask how much status does he or she have, is he or she famous? Love does not ask, how much money does he or she have, is he or she rich? Love never asks any of these questions. Love looks into the heart of someone. It looks into the mind of someone. Stop having many criterias. Stop having superficial criterias. Keep it simple. Keep it real. Don't create criterias based on your own philosophy. Don't create criterias based on man-made culture or capitalistic ideology. This is wrong. All we need to know about the right one, is described in the Quran. We should stop making our own criterias. Our criterias should be based on the Quran. The Quran tells us exactly which values a man or a woman should have. God has teached us what good men are like, and what good women are like. A good man or a good woman will elevate you, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. A rich person who is greedy, or a famous person and superfical person will, only elevate you physically. Such persons will only give you materials. They will not give you true love. And materials are inanimate, lifeless.
There is no need to make our own criterias. When we make our own criterias, things become complicated. When we follow the Quran, things become simple. When it comes to finding the right one, all the guidance we need is in the scripture. Those who follow man-made culture, will make their life hard. They will limit themselves. Stop playing hard to get. Stop thinking that you must have many dates before you can get married. Stop playing games. These games create hardship for you. And islam is not a game. Be yourself. Be real. Simplicity is the essence of islam. How can you get to know someone? You contact someone you like, talk with them on the internet, meet them in real life, and then you get married. That's all. Don't make it complicated. When it comes to dating, delete all man-made rules that are not based on the Quran. Have few criterias, and base all your criterias on the Quran. In the past, people embraced simplicity. To get married was not hard. Today, it is very hard, but only if you follow man-made culture and ideologies. If you stick to the Quranic principles, then it will be easy.
To find the right one, you have to be at the right places. Where is the right places? The right places are places where there are people that have the same belief system as you. The right places are places where there are people that believe in God alone. Don't go to the church, the mosque, the university, the cafeteria or the shopping mall. These are usually wrong places.
Many people dream about marrying someone and then wanting to change them. Let me put logic under the microscope so you can see it clearly. You can never change anyone. Period. You can only inspire people. And then, if they can or will, they will change. Let me tell you what people are willing to change. People are willing to change their car, change their house, even change their husband or their wife. But the hardest thing for human beings is to change their belief system. And as you know, only God can guide people. In the past, i felt into a huge trap. I thought that by telling people about islam based on Quran, they will start to follow it. You can read the Quran day and night for people and have hundreds of lectures about islam based on quran, for people, but if God does not guide them, your information will carry no weight.
How can you get to know a person you are interested in? Take the first step. Take initiative. If you feel that someone is compatible with you, show your interest. You don't necessarily need to tell him or her that you want get to know him or her. You can contact the person and say it indirectly. Or if you are truly honest and courageous, say it directly.
When you want to find the right one, stop looking at taste of music, taste of movies and what kind of interests he or she has. These are superficial things. Look into the heart of a person. Look into the mind of a person. Because only these things truly matter. Let me tell you about our belief system. Most people are aware that their children inherit the genes of their parents on a physical level. For example a children looks like their parents. But are you aware that if you get married to someone, your children will inherit your genes on a mental level as well? For example if two persons who are christians get married, their children will inherit christian beliefs in their subsconscious. Did you know this fact? Children inherit the belief system of their parents. And this is proven by modern science. So if you want to get married, think deeply about which belief system you want your future partner to have. Don't get married just to get married. If you want to get married, look into the heart of someone. Look into the mind of someone.
Forget finding someone who doesn't have the same belief system as you. Forget finding someone who does not follow islam based on Quran.You might want to teach someone abot islam, but it will take too much work, too much time and drain all your energy. And it is not a guarantee that the person will follow your belief system. It's like playing the lotto. You will most likely loose. The person will most likely not change, and not follow your belief system. Instead find someone who has the same belief system as you. Bet on a safe card. Find a finished package. Don't look for a half package. When you look for a car, you want it to be whole. You don't look for a car with only one wheel and one door. That's a car wreck. You want a car that has four wheels and four doors. A car that can move forward. A car that is complete. Not perfect, but complete. Not a car you have to fix, like a mechanic.
If you read magazines about dating, stop reading them. Stop reading man-made dating rules from cosmopolitan and other magazines. These rules are based on popular culture and romaniticism. Throw all these datingrules out of the window. Rip all these magazines into pieces. If you watch the television series; sex in the city, desperate housewifes, and you have received dating rules from these immoral television series, throw all these dating rules out of the window. Besides, these television series are morally destroying. Stop watching them. Almost all the dating rules they feed you from magazines and television series are based on man-made materialistic culture and capitalistic ideology. Don't let them fool you into thinking these dating rules are good for you. Almost all these dating rules are crap. They are not based on the Quran, they are not based on truth.These dating rules complicate your life, and limits you in the worst possible way. These dating rules are like prison bars. Pulverize these dating rules completely. People say it is hard to find the right one, or get married. No. It is not hard to find the right one, or get married if you really want it in your heart. If you want to get married, you will get married. It is as simple as that. If you want to get to know someone, you will do it, even if that person lives on the moon P
But you don't want to get married, you want to pick and choose. And that's one of the reasons why you are single. You have created a fantasy for yourself about how the right one should be. You want to find the perfect person. I promise you that if you look for the perfect person, you will never find him. If you look for the perfect person, you will never find her. And no matter how much you look for him or her in real life, he or she is will not be there. You are not perfect, so don't look for someone perfect.You have read too many romance novels. You have watched too many love movies. Come back to reality. Come back to the real world. Follow the laws of the Quran instead. The Quran teaches which values good men and women have. Judge with the Quran.
Let me explore the idea of destiny. Do I believe in destiny? Off course I believe in destiny. But only to a certain degree. I use my power to conquer it as much as possible. And I will leave the things that are out of my scope, and let destiny handle them. Many women women are hard core fans of destiny. They let it control too many aspects of their lives. They believe destiny will bring the right one to them. They believe that destiny will give them the right one. Try to say that to a homeless guy that lives in the street. Say to him, destiny will give you a home. Do you think he will believe it? No way. Destiny does not give you money, you have to work for it. Destiny does not give you a job, you have to search for it. If you are waiting for destiny to give you the right one, you will have to wait until year 2040, and maybe even longer. And then you will ask me, why I am still not married? And then I will tell you, because you put to much trust in destiny. Try to lock yourself in a house in a island where no one lives, and see if destiny will give you the right one, see if the right one will come to your house to marry you. He will never come. Don't believe me yet? Then try it. My advice to you is to never grasp to fatalism, because fatalism is fatal. The idea about the magical destiny that will send you the right one from nowhere, is not close to reality. This idea is close to illusion and fantasy. And this idea is daily promoted in the media. It has been promoted so much that many people believe it is real. Just like children who believe Santa clause is real and that he will come down from the skies and give them gifts. Discard this fantasy forever. Let me tell you something mindblowing. I once heard that destiny, is not a matter of chance or luck, but a matter of choice. So take a stance. Take a choice. You have nothing to loose.
The best principles for getting to know someone, can be found in the Quran. When it comes to dating we should judge with the quran and stop judging with man-made rules based on materialistic culture and capitalistic ideology. Following the Quran, is not just lip service. It is action. It is devotion. Islam is a complete system, and we should follow it completely. It's not enough to know what we should do. We should be a living example of our conviction. We should live by the principles of the scripture, not by rules in man-made culture. Many of the rules in man-made culture are based on falsehood, superficiality, ignorance and vanity. But the principles in the Quran are based on truth. And they are based on reality. I doubt that any of the prophets followed any rules for marriage from man-made culture. From my understanding of the Quran, they followed principles from their scriptures. Read their stories in the Quran, what we need to know is in there stories. There are lessons in their stories. And when it comes to dating, it is a man-made concept. The reason I use the word dating, is because people can relate to it. Dating today, is often a business. If nobody dated eachother, and didn't go to cafeterias and restaurants to get to know eachother, the cafeterias and restaurants would loose lots of money. Some people claim that even love has become a business in this day and age. But that's a topic for another day. By the way, I want to mention that I personally like to go to restaurants and cafeterias. But I don't think these are the only places a person has to visit if he or she wants to get to know someone. There are lots of other activities a person can do with his date which cost much less, and is more fun.
Why do you want to get married? If you get married for all the wrong reasons, you will end up with all the wrong answers. You have to know why you want to get married. Do you want to get married just to get married? Do you want to get married because you are afraid of being alone? Ask yourself these questions. If a marriage will bring you closer to islam and spirituality, it will be good, it will be a blessing. If a marriage hinders you, it will be bad, it will be a burden. A marriage can make your life better, or it can make your life worse.
If you get married it can bring you prosperity and elevate you, or it can stop growth. It all depends on who you marry. If two partners want to have a happy marriage and achieve great things, they have to cooperate. They can not compete with eachother. Two persons can only cooperate if they have the same belief system and if they are compatible with eachother. Imagine a man and a woman who are sitting in a boat. If they want to reach from one side of lake to the other side, they have to cooperate. They have to paddle together at the same time towards the same destination. If one of the partners, start to paddle towards another destination, they won't reach far. In marriage two persons become one (metaphorically speaking). If they cooperate with eachother, they can make eachothers lives twice as good. But if they don't cooperate, they can make eachothers lives worse. And then it would better to be single. If you get married to someone who is not compatible with you, or don't have the same belief system as you, constant conflicts can happen because of your differences. For example a woman who follows islam based on Quran, and marries a man from another belief system, who does not take responsibility for his life, and is childish, and is not compatible with her and is weak, then she will have lots of problems in her marriage. They will argue over petty things, and fight all the time. And she have to teach him everything and fix all his problems. Sooner or later, her valuable time and energy will be lost on meaningless things, and her home will become a nursery. And then she will have no time to follow her life's purpose and contribute to people, she will have no time to do good deeds. A marriage that don't bring you closer to islam and spirituality, and hinders you from walking the path, is worthless. If you marry someone who does not have the same belief system as you, or is not compatible with you, you will most likely achieve more things if you are single.
We all want to get married. Personally I think it would be great to get married. Marriage is one of the most beautiful experiences in this world. But If I don't get married, it is not the end of the world. I think doing good deeds is the most important thing. And I have realized that the day you need no one, on that they you are free. Allah tells in the Quran, that if we reach paradise, in the hereafter, then we will get spouses. So if we don't get spouses in this life, we can get it in the hereafter, if God wills.
Quran 4454
So it is, and We married them to wonderful companions.How can it be that off all the thousands of members in this forum, only a few has married eachother? The rest of those who believe in God alone, the majority, has married, sunnies, shias, christians and people from other belief system. Isn't this strange? Should it be like this? Some of the most moral and intelligent brothers and sisters in this forum are not married. They are single, and they are alone. They are single and alone because none of the members have married them. They are single because the members married sunni's, shia's, christians and people from other faiths. There are brothers and sisters on this forum who are 35-50 years old and are still single. Can you believe it? Is this fair? These brothers and sisters deserve to be married. It's our own fault that many people in this forum are alone and single. Why is it our fault? Because we look for the right one everywhere, except the right places. We have looked for the right one everywhere, except in this forum.The right ones are in this forum, and they are in other places where you can find those who believe in God alone.
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@Rana
For me, I think I want to marry someone because, I want to have a partner to support me in the small things in life AND also someone that help me grow as a believer. I don't think I can attain the latter with someone who is shia/sunni/jewish/christian/etc.@David
wow. that is really a well thought out response; I actually read all of it I agree with almost all of your points...- You really do have to ask yourself why do I want to get married?
- Can you have an intellectual conversation with her? What is her actual/true/honest view point regarding God/Qur'an?
- You definatly don't need 10 months to tell if she is the one. You can probably tell if she is really the one within weeks.
Salaam
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@ David_k. Salaams and thank you for your response on this. I read all of it too and I appreciated it a lot because you took the time to give your views and since clearly it's something that you have experience in and think about. I also agree with so much of what you said. I also made a decision that I was not going to marry someone who didn't have the same basic belief system - unfortunately I changed though ( I seem to have been kidding myself for a long time because I know that initially I had a lot of trouble with hadith...then I learned to tow the line, so to speak. I heard the excuses and I tried to take them on board so that I could believe in the same way as my friends, the majority. I really believed that I believed, if that makes sense. But clearly I couldn't sustain such dishonesty. It's important to be clear and reasonably stable in what you believe before you go looking for a partner....
I thoroughly agree on looking beyond money and all of those trappings. That is one thing I did right, hamdulillah I did something right, lol. You are right about change - we all change constantly, but it's rarely the things that a husband or wife might want to change in their partner. Allah is the guide of these things and if you go in with that intention you are really starting off badly. I think that I was targeted in this way, probably he didn't realise he was doing it, and it didn't work well. I was shaped with subtle words for a long time regarding dress & conduct like not listening to music and various other hadith based things. Turns out that I have pretty much reverted to the person I was beforehand now...funny.
One thing I do feel a little angry about, not only towards the person in question but also towards myself, is this When I was looking for a husband I was very clear about what I was looking for. I spelled it out in detail (not too much but not too little either). It seems that he ignored that and decided to change me instead. I for my part allowed that for a long time and it backfired for both of us - big time!
The thing you said about being able to discuss things intellectually, which Sonnie mentioned too, is such an excellent question to ask. When I look back I couldn't ever do this. We could only talk about what hadith says. What the Imams say. What particular books and websites say...there was never intellectual, logical, debate or argument over anything. There should have been warning bells over so many things.
@ Sonnie - I think that support is a really big part of a relationship too. It's one of those things you miss out on as a single person. You support each other by being there for each other, by open communication, cooperation and even through the security of an enduring relationship with someone who you are constantly getting to know better. As you say, the small things, but in fact they are big things. )
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@David
wow. that is really a well thought out response; I actually read all of it Wink I agree with almost all of your points...- You really do have to ask yourself why do I want to get married?
- Can you have an intellectual conversation with her? What is her actual/true/honest view point regarding God/Qur'an?
- You definatly don't need 10 months to tell if she is the one. You can probably tell if she is really the one within weeks.
Peace Sonnie
My last post was different from many of my other posts. I used a different writing style, to reach a broader audience. I wrote a post that can appeal to as many members as possible in this forum, and that they can relate to. I like to write, and sometimes I switch styles.
I'm glad that you agree with most of my views in my last post. In my last post my views and conclusions in are based on logic and reason. And I shared my knowledge and experience about psychology and philosophy.
The question about why a person wants to get married is one of the most important questions. The goal of marriage should be to work for the next life, and cooperate together to achieve twice as much as you would achieve if you were single and alone. If a marriage is built on a good foundation, your life will become easier and in better in all ways.
It's important to find out right from the beginning what the belief system of a person is. Some of the first questions we should ask the person we want to get to know are the following. What is your view about God? What is your view about islam? What is your about the hereafter? When most people get to know someone they forget these questions. I myself have forgotten to ask these questions in the beginning. I instead asked what are your interest, what are your dreams, plans for future etc. All these questions are good, but if we want to look into the heart of someone and the mind of someone, we should instead ask questions about islam and spirituality.
Yes, you definetely don't need 10 months. And if the person you want to get to know on a personal level, is from this forum, you only need a couple of days, to read the posts of the person, and then you will see if the person is compatible with you (has the same belief system, values and view points).
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@ David_k. Salaams and thank you for your response on this. I read all of it too and I appreciated it a lot because you took the time to give your views and since clearly it's something that you have experience in and think about. I also agree with so much of what you said. I also made a decision that I was not going to marry someone who didn't have the same basic belief system - unfortunately I changed though I seem to have been kidding myself for a long time because I know that initially I had a lot of trouble with hadith...then I learned to tow the line, so to speak. I heard the excuses and I tried to take them on board so that I could believe in the same way as my friends, the majority. I really believed that I believed, if that makes sense. But clearly I couldn't sustain such dishonesty. It's important to be clear and reasonably stable in what you believe before you go looking for a partner....
Peace Rana )
Your welcome. And It's nice to hear that you appreciated my post. It's so easy to deceive ourselves. But it's never too late to follow our heart again. When it comes to get to know women, I have deceived myself a couple of times as well, the last couple of years. But I learned from my mistakes, and moved on. To follow the majority, is what most people have done and still do. With majority, we get support, alone, we have to take responsibility, therefore it is easier to follow the majority. But things which are easier, are not necessarily better. If I read between the lines, you are married. How long have you been married?
I thoroughly agree on looking beyond money and all of those trappings. That is one thing I did right, hamdulillah I did something right, lol. You are right about change - we all change constantly, but it's rarely the things that a husband or wife might want to change in their partner. Allah is the guide of these things and if you go in with that intention you are really starting off badly. I think that I was targeted in this way, probably he didn't realise he was doing it, and it didn't work well. I was shaped with subtle words for a long time regarding dress & conduct like not listening to music and various other hadith based things. Turns out that I have pretty much reverted to the person I was beforehand now...funny.
You say, that you have reverted to the person you was beforehand. Do you mean that you have become like how you was before you found Quran-based-islam? If your answer is yes, what can you do to become the person you want? How can you manifest your belief system into your life again?
One thing I do feel a little angry about, not only towards the person in question but also towards myself, is this When I was looking for a husband I was very clear about what I was looking for. I spelled it out in detail (not too much but not too little either). It seems that he ignored that and decided to change me instead. I for my part allowed that for a long time and it backfired for both of us - big time!
I have also been very clear about what I looked for in a woman in the past. But I realized that what I looked for was not based on the Quranic principles. And I think that's why I had to reject the women I got to know. If what we are looking for is based on the Quran instead of personal desires, then I believe we will find the right one much faster. When we create criterias based on personal desires, we will fool ourselves because we don't know who is best for us. Only God knows which future partner that will be best for us. I got a question. Have you decided to continue being staying with your husband, even dough you and him are different?
The thing you said about being able to discuss things intellectually, which Sonnie mentioned too, is such an excellent question to ask. When I look back I couldn't ever do this. We could only talk about what hadith says. What the Imams say. What particular books and websites say...there was never intellectual, logical, debate or argument over anything. There should have been warning bells over so many things.
Thanks. I was already convinced that I will never get to know sunni muslim women and women from other faiths on a personal level. But now you have convinced me even more than before ;D
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I've known for a long time that inter-religious marriages are really hard with a lot of test. I'd never had to consider what happens when two people are the same religion but with vastly different interpretations. Now I can see how hard it is. I know there are some people on here who seem to manage, somehow, with this. But I personally find it really hard to separate a persons beliefs from them as a person. For me the beliefs are the person. This means that in practice if the person is a friend or an acqaintence it's fine. I get on with a vast range of people as friends - but when it's someone you are really close to...as in your husband/wife - how can this work?
Truth is everything then...because if the differences are that big not only do you have to live with the consequences of what they believe in but it's hard to have the kind of strong respect that you should/must have in those kind of relationships. I actually feel really sad writing that. ( It's just my opinion & my feelings of course.
Hamdulillah for Quran, for logic and for people who continue to seek answers and may Allah guide me.
Peace,
Respect.I know how you feel.
May God help us all.Peace.
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peace david_k
"truth stood on one side and ease on the other; it has often been so" (Theodore Parker)
What I meant about reverting to how I was is that when I first converted I seemed to be concentrating more on the basic things, the important things - it wasn't all about whether I listened to music, told people what I dreamed the night before, whether I sang (in private mind you )), danced, whistled and which hand I ate with. I was creative and alive before! But that gradually began to change. Now I feel I am changing back with many things. I still have a lot of confusion though and it's hard to move past some things. It's a period of unlearning and re-learning. I think time will do it; then again, some things I am not ready to stop doing as they provide a good cover for me as I don't want to be ostracised (at least not at the moment) by the community. I hope I've answered your question. Basically I mean revert to a more free-thinking and lively practice of Islam, not to stop practising.
I think the only way now is to be strong and move forward, reading Quran in an attempt to rid myself of all the falsity I have taken in and as I am currently separated, adjusting to that. Hamdulillah that we have this strong guidance from Allah in Quran. It makes life easier. I have gained a lot from this forum since I joined (well actually since before that) and this thread has been helpful. If I am ever in the position again to choose a partner I think the advice I've gained from the forum will help a lot. I don't think I made responsible enough decisions before. Live and learn.
"And We have come to them with a Book which We have detailed with knowledge; a guide and a mercy to those who believe." Quran 752
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Peace Rana
Nice quote from Theodore parket (It's the first time i read it).
I see. Yes, you have answered my question. I understand that you don't want to be ostracised by the community. No one wants that. I myself have told few people about my inner beliefs when it comes to islam. I adapt to different environments. We can learn from the chameleon who change colors. The most adaptable persons will survive. A person must either "adapt or die". And that's why I like the philosophy part of the theory evolution.
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Peace Rana, all
By the way, I know it is off-topic, but I got a question. I have always wondered why women have a special code of loyalty. For example, Jane likes a man by the name Jeff. But Jeff don't like Jane, he likes Jane's friend. The name of her friend is Julia. Jeff shows interest to Julia, but Julia rejects him. Julia don't reject him because she is not attracted to him, but because she has talked to her friend Jane, and Julia has promised Jane to not get to know the guy that Jane likes. As you can see, they have a special code of loyalty. But what is the point of this code of loyalty? What if this code is wrong? If Julia and Jeff are more compatible than Jane and Jeff, then isn't Julia making a mistake by promising her friend to reject Jeff? This doesn't make sense. Rana, do you know why women have this special code of loyalty? And do you think women should have it?
Also, it would be nice if other women in this forum can answer my question. I would like to hear your thoughts, your answers.
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Salaam david_k.
I have never come across this sort of behaviour. I have to add that this doesn't mean it happens. I think the fact that you are asking the question shows you have experienced it. My first thought was that I'm not a young girl and maybe this is something new that the younger folk are doing rotfl But more likely it's just something that certain people do, not others.
While loyalty is a wonderful thing it does seem a bad fit in this situation. If the woman that the man likes rejects him it does not necessarily mean that he will then fall in love with the other woman (the one that likes him). Life isn't like that and I suppose that was your point. I agree it doesn't make sense. In matters of the heart I think we have to try to be happy for people where they find real love and companionship, not be jealous and try to prevent it. I tried to relate this to Quran but I couldn't think of specifics, though overall it seems that marriage as well as being about love is also a very practical thing for us. From partnerships we get companionship, help, love etc. It does seem really wrong that through playing games these partnerships are prevented.
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its sort of like the unspoken code even guys have...i kind of like it...because at the end of the day your friend is more important than most of the guys you have feelings for..but if the guy and girl are really good together and want to seriously be with each other, then its wrong..its the friends duty to let go of her prejudices and let the two people be. the code o floyalty is there bro, but its there to protect your friendship from just people who come and go. if the relationship is more than that then the girls should communicate and work it out. the code isnt like a brick wall that cant be broken down. its just a protective measure.
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its sort of like the unspoken code even guys have...i kind of like it...because at the end of the day your friend is more important than most of the guys you have feelings for..but if the guy and girl are really good together and want to seriously be with each other, then its wrong..its the friends duty to let go of her prejudices and let the two people be. the code o floyalty is there bro, but its there to protect your friendship from just people who come and go. if the relationship is more than that then the girls should communicate and work it out. the code isnt like a brick wall that cant be broken down. its just a protective measure.
I'm glad you had a go at answering. Clearly I don't have the experience lol. I see what you're saying, it's not nice if friendship get broken over meaningless things. peace
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Okey Ladies, here is how I see it now. If two women, who are friends, both are attracted to a guy, but the guy is only attracted to one of them, there are 2 solutions to this problem.
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Only the female who likes the guy the most, has the right to get to know him (not the other female). In other words, the females will choose.
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The guy will choose which one of them he wants to date (get to know). If the guy likes one of the females, but not the other, then it is game over for the other, and she has to accept that the guy don't wants her (that he wants the other female instead). in other words, the guy will choose. Ahh, this is the solution i like ;D
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Salaam all,
Oh wow. I left this thread and when I come back, so many replies that they give me headache D.
Anyway, I?ll try to put my two cents on what has been said.
Sister Raza,
the amount of hardship you face in interfaith marriages, or diff beliefs marriages varies a lot depending on how much two ppl love each other and are willing to accept the other person as part and parcel of loving them.i think i have the capacity to love someone and respect them if they have values of a good muslim, even if they might not be...how a person acts has far more resounding affects on the family as compared to what he may only believe (as is the case with many ppl who claim to be of a certain faith, but have no idea of wat its all about)
It?s true in some extent. It depends however what you base your relationship on. Is it based on emotional, intellectual and/or spiritual connection? Overall, I can get along and maintain a healthy peaceful relationship with someone with different beliefs. Sure. But I will not deny that I will feel the void of him not providing for my spiritual needs, and vice versa. Essentially, that is what I think you need to consider when you consider someone. Would you want spirituality to provide bond between you and your partner? Would you be okay and accepting of your partner?s actions that are not compatible with your beliefs (e.q. praying to Jesus, drinking)? Would you be able to sit back and let your loved one be, for the sake of respect?
Brother David,
Oh.My.God. What a block of texts I had to endure (haha kidding D). I will try attempting some of your answers, not all.
I think I will I have to disagree with you when you said that we should not look for our potential partner in any other place but this forum. Having a belief is one thing, but what is most important is whether you implement your belief and translate it into actions. You can only see this when you witness that person doing social works herself. How can you see it? By experiencing life out there, of course! You get to witness with your own eyes if that person is kind to another, if that person will spare her time to volunteer, if that person uses her intelligence and skills to improve her surroundings, etc. That is why you should not dismiss the idea of some people searching for their potential partners outside this virtual realm. Every option has its own pros and cons.
In regards to your comment on parents? expectation when it comes to their children?s potential partners, I think you just generalise things. Sure there are some selfish parents out there, but there too are genuine parents who wish nothing but the happiness of their children. They too can put things into perspectives. When someone is in love, they tend to be blind and make excuses for their partner?s obvious and glaring flaws. That?s when parents are there for you, to ensure that you do not fall into this trap. You may see a God alone woman and fall in love with her, and your emotion blinds you that you fail to see how this woman may not complement you as person. Not saying it will happen, it is only a possibility. Do not see parents? interference in your love affairs as 100% negative. They can see what you cannot see, and they have experienced what you have not experienced. Of course no one has the same experience, but essentially they may have more wisdom than you do. It is your responsibility to exercise logical thinking and open-mindedness to see the worth of their arguments.
Most parents have not experienced true love, and still they want to tell their son and daughter about what true love is. Isn't this strange? Isn't this illogical?
May I ask where you get your statistics when you say most parents have not experienced true love? ?Most? is a word that denotes a large quantity, so I assume you have talked to many married couples to come to this conclusion? Anyway, when I read your posts regarding parents? set questions, I cannot help but thinking that you are being too judgmental. That may be what your parents have asked you, but you cannot project your own experience into the others?.
Sure my parents have in the past asked these questions about someone?s level of education or financial circumstances but essentially it comes down to them asking what will complete me as a person, if we believe the same way. Parents can be logical, but because what you think may not be the same, you may not see their true intention. Ideally, a God alone man finds a God alone woman, and they shall live heavily ever after. Full stop? No. I hate to say it myself, but a portion of wealth and knowledge are essential. You need to be able to financially provide for your partner, or vice versa, and that is when wealth comes to the picture. I am not saying that we should get a rich partner, no. But at least someone with a sufficient means to provide for our survival, and I think that is precisely why some parents ask us if our prospective partner is financially sufficient. They don?t want us to live on the streets. They may ask of the level of education, that is because they want an intelligent person who will challenge the way we think. Sure, often times level of education does not equate intelligence, but not many see it that way. That being said, your parents, beyond all these illogical and nonsensical questions, may wish what is best for you.
You may think they only want you to serve their self interests, but perhaps they express their thoughts incorrectly when they want nothing but your own happiness. Stop and think, the true meanings of what they say. Your parents may ask you to get a rich person, maybe they want you to be able to give charity freely because that is what you believe. Your parents may ask you to get a person with high education, maybe they want someone who can match your level of intelligence. There are things that go beyond what they seem to be, so do not make judgment until you know the whole truth.
Your parents don't know who is the right one for you. Only you can know it. Nobody else knows it. So follow your heart.
They may have some ideas, especially when we are blinded by our emotions. When we make excuses saying that all these tiny flaws don?t matter because we are much in love. Parents can see all these, and tell you their perspectives. I learnt it the hard way.
Many people say, I have to get to know him or her 10 months before I know if he or she is the right one. Well, if you want to get know someone for that long, then he or she isn't the right one.
Seriously, you think 10 months is a long time? A person is not like a diamond, so don?t make that analogy. A person has a layer of emotions, appearances that cannot be equated to an object. In two days, you can ?see? a cheerful, talkative and outgoing woman who totally captures your heart. You may think that she is the one because she encapsulates of what you want in a woman, based on you initial, visual assessment in a span of two days. But will you be able to get to know what she has been through in her life, what is going on her mind? Will you know that this woman may actually be lonely inside, and that she struggles to impress everyone, to make everyone notice her? Will you get to know her that much, if you do not want to take that journey of getting to know someone? There are things about someone, that you can only find out when you take the time to know them.
How can you get to know someone? You contact someone you like, talk with them on the internet, meet them in real life, and then you get married. That's all.
The theory sounds wonderful, but most of the times it won?t work like that. On internet, you cannot see one?s expressions; hence you speculate based on what people write. You construct this image of how a person may be in real life, which is not necessarily the case. In internet, people can talk their talk. They can say that they are passionate about Islam and their visions of a better world, but they may not really translate their words into actions. And ultimately, you create a picture of someone based on what they say, you become convinced that this person is the one. Then you get married and find out, that this person is all talk and does not walk the walk.
I am not completely trashing this idea. It can work in some cases. But then you have to be patient, and do not rush into things. Do not start off thinking of a person as a potential partner, but rather know them as a person. As a brother/sister in faith. Then you get to know this person, inside and out, and she knows you inside and out. Then when you feel that you are comfortable with sharing your life, then you see if things are going to work out. It is a process, and we should not be haste just because we want to get to the end result.
You may disagree with me, but the process of getting to know someone requires a lot of time. An ideal person is of course someone who can elevate us spiritually. But in my opinion, being spiritually attracted is one of the last and most ?advanced? stage there is. The first is physical attraction. Superficial as it is, we first get attracted to someone based on their looks. I will not deny that, and no one should deny it. We are not monks nor should we wish to be one. The second stage is being attracted intellectually, when you can discuss certain issues without being bored to death. Intellectual discussion helps you better your understanding of the world around you, and make you a person with more awareness. Then it advances to emotional connection, you become comfortable in disclosing your true emotions, your passion and your life. This is an important ingredient, I think, in marriage (how would I know!) because you will be living with someone where honesty and openness should exist. Then the last is spiritual connection, where you put together your common beliefs and strive in the Path of God. What I am trying to say, there are stages in getting to know someone. We should take the first step, and then move on to the later. It?s a process that you have to undertake. Do not rush things and try to ?jump? because you may see a God alone person, and then figures out this person is not suitable with you. 10 months is not much to ask, really. It gives you a sufficient amount of time to get to know someone, to be attracted and comfortable with her physically, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually.
Many people dream about marrying someone and then wanting to change them. Let me put logic under the microscope so you can see it clearly. You can never change anyone. Period. You can only inspire people. And then, if they can or will, they will change. Let me tell you what people are willing to change. People are willing to change their car, change their house, even change their husband or their wife. But the hardest thing for human beings is to change their belief system.
The person will most likely not change, and not follow your belief system. Instead find someone who has the same belief system as you. Bet on a safe card. Find a finished package. Don't look for a half package.
No, we cannot change people. But does that mean we should not attempt at showing them the truth? Some people have tendencies to follow God-alone, and yet the environment does not support it. Some people may not have the access to unadulterated Qur?an but believe in following God alone and not man-made cultures, do you deny the idea to at least convey your belief to the person? I believe most of us are here were not a Qur?an-based muslims to begin with, and rather follow the tradition and the religion of our ancestors. So why should we act all exclusive and disregard the others who may have found their ways here?
I instead asked what are your interest, what are your dreams, plans for future etc. All these questions are good, but if we want to look into the heart of someone and the mind of someone, we should instead ask questions about islam and spirituality.
I thought someone?s plans for the future speaks out about the heart of someone? Vision of the future tells us a lot about one?s stance on their belief system. We can assume that someone is passionate about Islam and its implementation, if they tell us that in the future, they want to create non-profit organisation that helps fight poverty, or establish an orphanage in a developing country, or help develop the infrastructure of the community in need, or fight for human rights, etc.
Anyway, that is all I want to address to you for the time being.
Sister Rana,
I agree with most of what you said, especially about the unlearning and relearning processes. I sincerely hope that you can move forward, putting everything behind you. Just know that there will be many people here who will support you. I too have gained tremendous support from many people here group (love them much).
PS Maybe you can come down to Sydney and we can all share the lurrveeeee (and you need to tell me more about battling yeast!).
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@ bornagain - I would love to come to Sydney and meet up...yes we could do some baking and more!! P
I do agree with you that people are very multi-layered creatures and it's not always easy to get to know them in a short time. Even if you look at your friendships you see that over time you find out more and more about the person and they get more comfortable so they show more as well.
Though I think I can relate to what david_k was saying as well....sometimes relationships can be made too complicated. Then again they are complicated things... ???
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Salam BornAgain
Yes, there are some generalizations. And that's because it was an essay. Your thoughts are as valid as my thoughts, but they do not invalidate my thoughts. The validity of my arguments stand strong like threes when the wind hits them. Your thoughts just show another side of the mental realm of the issues. And you have some good points.
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Sister BornAgain
It was unfair of me to write such a short post when you had written a long post to me. You were kind, and invested time in writing a long post to me. So I decided to write a longer post to you. Let me write my thoughts, and answer your questions.
Oh.My.God. What a block of texts I had to endure (haha kidding D). I will try attempting some of your answers, not all.
What a boring sentence I had to endure Do you want to bore me so much that I fall asleep? Save your boring sentences for boring people... haha kidding D
I think I will I have to disagree with you when you said that we should not look for our potential partner in any other place but this forum.
If I said that we should only look for our potential partner in this forum, then I wouldn't be able to forgive myself. Lol. You are fast with pulling the trigger, but you won't hit any zombies that are out of your scope. So hold your fire, I am human
I did not say that we should not look for our partner in any other place but this forum. I said, we should look for the right one in the right places, see what I wrote in my post one more time.
To find the right one, you have to be at the right places. Where is the right places? The right places are places where there are people that have the same belief system as you. The right places are places where there are people that believe in God alone. Don't go to the church, the mosque, the university, the cafeteria or the shopping mall. These are usually wrong places.
Also see this quote from my post
The right ones are in this forum, and they are in other places where you can find those who believe in God alone.
And I think this forum might be one of the best places.
Having a belief is one thing, but what is most important is whether you implement your belief and translate it into actions. You can only see this when you witness that person doing social works herself.
The Quran teaches us that we can give money, or do social works openly or secretly. Some people don't like to tell much about what they do in their leisure time. It is best not show people what we do. The Quran teaches us this. Our reward is only with God, not with people. But you are right to a certain degree. The best way to see it is when you witness that person doing social works. At the same time, it is not the only way to see it. You can also see it if someone does good works, through his or her mind as well. Our mind is a reflection of what we do. If someone is a good person (does good deeds) this will be reflected in their mind. For example they will be pure, have a pure heart. Also someone's understanding of the Quran, can be a direct reflection of what action they do in their leisure time. People that do lots of good deeds, may understand the Quran on a deeper level than those who don't do good deeds. You should verify what I am telling you. Because I might be wrong about this one. But I think what I am saying is based on what I have learned from the Quran.
How can you see it? By experiencing life out there, of course! You get to witness with your own eyes if that person is kind to another, if that person will spare her time to volunteer, if that person uses her intelligence and skills to improve her surroundings, etc. That is why you should not dismiss the idea of some people searching for their potential partners outside this virtual realm. Every option has its own pros and cons.
I agree. And I have never said that someone should only search for a partner in this virtual realm (forum, internet etc.)
In regards to your comment on parents? expectation when it comes to their children?s potential partners, I think you just generalise things. Sure there are some selfish parents out there, but there too are genuine parents who wish nothing but the happiness of their children. They too can put things into perspectives. When someone is in love, they tend to be blind and make excuses for their partner?s obvious and glaring flaws. That?s when parents are there for you, to ensure that you do not fall into this trap. You may see a God alone woman and fall in love with her, and your emotion blinds you that you fail to see how this woman may not complement you as person. Not saying it will happen, it is only a possibility. Do not see parents? interference in your love affairs as 100% negative. They can see what you cannot see, and they have experienced what you have not experienced. Of course no one has the same experience, but essentially they may have more wisdom than you do. It is your responsibility to exercise logical thinking and open-mindedness to see the worth of their arguments.
I understand your point. But your thoughts do not invalidate my arguments, they just show another side of the mental realm. Parents can give their sons and daughters good advice (there is no doubt about that). But my point was something else. Parents that have not experience true love, and don't have had happy marriages can not teach it to their children, or tell them who they should get married to if their children want to be happy. Hence my metaphor; about the person who want to build a house for people.
May I ask where you get your statistics when you say most parents have not experienced true love? ?Most? is a word that denotes a large quantity, so I assume you have talked to many married couples to come to this conclusion? Anyway, when I read your posts regarding parents? set questions, I cannot help but thinking that you are being too judgmental. That may be what your parents have asked you, but you cannot project your own experience into the others?.
You are calling me judgmental, but perhaps I know what you do not know. As I have said many times in this forum to different people, "We should focus on the message instead of the man." I am not important. It is my message which is important (if it holds any weight). And if it does not hold any weight, it is unimportant.
You don't need statistics to understand human nature. Just like you don't need statistics to understand nature. You don't need to have statistics to know that if a human being throws a ball into the air it will fall and hit the ground. The universe is governed by laws, and if you look into those laws with a psychological mindset/experience, you will see how people break those laws often (including myself). The laws of human nature are "unseen". While the laws of nature are "seen". And the unseen can only be experienced. God is also unseen. You can not see God, but you can feel God's presence. Besides, the Quran tells us that the majority are wrong, they do not think, they only guess. You can only experience true love if you think, not if you guess. And true love is eternal. So when you see all these people in your country who gets divorced, then you know that it is not true love. They have not experienced true love in their marriage. When you see all these people argue and fight over petty problems, then you know that is not true love. They have not experienced true love in their marriage. There can exist no hate in true love, just like there can exist no darkness in light.
I hate to say it myself, but a portion of wealth and knowledge are essential. You need to be able to financially provide for your partner, or vice versa, and that is when wealth comes to the picture.
A man should provide for his partner, if he is able to do it (the Quran teaches us this). So I acknowledge this. However, there is a difference between real wealth and false wealth.
I am not saying that we should get a rich partner, no. But at least someone with a sufficient means to provide for our survival, and I think that is precisely why some parents ask us if our prospective partner is financially sufficient. They don?t want us to live on the streets. They may ask of the level of education, that is because they want an intelligent person who will challenge the way we think. Sure, often times level of education does not equate intelligence, but not many see it that way. That being said, your parents, beyond all these illogical and nonsensical questions, may wish what is best for you.
Yes, someone's parents may wish the best for them. But there is a huge difference between what they believe is best for their sons and daughters, and what really is best for their sons and daughter. There is a huge difference between wishful thinking and reality.
You may think they only want you to serve their self interests, but perhaps they express their thoughts incorrectly when they want nothing but your own happiness. Stop and think, the true meanings of what they say. Your parents may ask you to get a rich person, maybe they want you to be able to give charity freely because that is what you believe.
I have never think that they only want to serve their self interests. I said that they most likely will have self-interest. There is a difference between, only and most likely.
Your parents will most likely focus on their self-interest.
I said that they serve their self-interests if they ask the following questions
If they want your future partner to have the same ethnicity as you, they are focusing on their self-interest. If they want your future partner to have prestige or fame in the society, they are focusing on their self-interest.
And what I quoted (which I wrote in my last post) is completely logical. If you want, you can try to find any logical holes in what I quoted above. And If you find it, I will gladly change my view
Seriously, you think 10 months is a long time? A person is not like a diamond, so don?t make that analogy. A person has a layer of emotions, appearances that cannot be equated to an object.
When I said 10 months it was just an example. I thought people would read between the lines and see my underlying point.
I can make any analogy I like. So you shouldn't tell me what I should do or don't do. I do what I want whenever I want (as long as I don't break any quranic laws, human rights, etc. I don't like people telling me what I should do. And I don't think that you like someone telling you what you should do neither.
And the fact is, that my analogy was valid. It was actually valid. A human being who knows how a diamond looks like (when he sees it) is similar to a human being who knows if someone is the right one (when he sees her). If you know what you look for (a diamond) is similiar to knowing what another person looks for (the right one). Besides, I didn't equate a person to an object. I equated a person who looks for a diamond, to a person who looks for the right one. No where in my paragraph I said that I compared a human being to a diamond. And besides, sometimes we can actually compare a human being to an object. For example, some scientists compare the human brain to a computer (an object). And their analogy is valid, because there are similiarities between a human brain and a computer. In a human brain you can install ideas. In a computer you can install ideas through programs. And in a human brain you can delete ideas (unlearning). And in a computer you can delete programs.
A person has a layer of emotions, appearances that cannot be equated to an object. In two days, you can ?see? a cheerful, talkative and outgoing woman who totally captures your heart. You may think that she is the one because she encapsulates of what you want in a woman, based on you initial, visual assessment in a span of two days. But will you be able to get to know what she has been through in her life, what is going on her mind? Will you know that this woman may actually be lonely inside, and that she struggles to impress everyone, to make everyone notice her? Will you get to know her that much, if you do not want to take that journey of getting to know someone? There are things about someone, that you can only find out when you take the time to know them.
I understand what you mean, and when I read between the lines, I can see that the person you are talking about is not a stranger. Now try to read the between the lines and see if you can understand what I mean
In two days, you can ?see? a cheerful, talkative and outgoing woman who totally captures your heart. You may think that she is the one because she encapsulates of what you want in a woman, based on you initial, visual assessment in a span of two days. But will you be able to get to know what she has been through in her life, what is going on her mind? Will you know that this woman may actually be lonely inside, and that she struggles to impress everyone, to make everyone notice her? Will you get to know her that much, if you do not want to take that journey of getting to know someone? There are things about someone, that you can only find out when you take the time to know them.
I see your point. But maybe those things are irrelevant when it comes to marriage. Maybe you will know those things later. Morality, sincerity, intelligence, and other things are the essentials. These are the fundamentals you need to know. You can leave the details to later.
The theory sounds wonderful, but most of the times it won?t work like that. On internet, you cannot see one?s expressions; hence you speculate based on what people write. You construct this image of how a person may be in real life, which is not necessarily the case. In internet, people can talk their talk. They can say that they are passionate about Islam and their visions of a better world, but they may not really translate their words into actions. And ultimately, you create a picture of someone based on what they say, you become convinced that this person is the one. Then you get married and find out, that this person is all talk and does not walk the walk.
I agree with your view, at the same time, as I already said, you can see if someone is the real deal through his/her mind. Also, you can see it through his or her action. For example, there are members on this forum who are passionate about islam, and write articles and books abouttrue islam and hadith, and are fighting for the cause of our deen. So some actions can be seen, even on a forum.
I am not completely trashing this idea. It can work in some cases. But then you have to be patient, and do not rush into things. Do not start off thinking of a person as a potential partner, but rather know them as a person. As a brother/sister in faith. Then you get to know this person, inside and out, and she knows you inside and out. Then when you feel that you are comfortable with sharing your life, then you see if things are going to work out. It is a process, and we should not be haste just because we want to get to the end result.
You completely enlightened me with your view bravo I totally agree with you. This is the best way
You may disagree with me, but the process of getting to know someone requires a lot of time. An ideal person is of course someone who can elevate us spiritually. But in my opinion, being spiritually attracted is one of the last and most ?advanced? stage there is. The first is physical attraction. Superficial as it is, we first get attracted to someone based on their looks. I will not deny that, and no one should deny it. We are not monks nor should we wish to be one. The second stage is being attracted intellectually, when you can discuss certain issues without being bored to death. Intellectual discussion helps you better your understanding of the world around you, and make you a person with more awareness. Then it advances to emotional connection, you become comfortable in disclosing your true emotions, your passion and your life. This is an important ingredient, I think, in marriage (how would I know!) because you will be living with someone where honesty and openness should exist. Then the last is spiritual connection, where you put together your common beliefs and strive in the Path of God. What I am trying to say, there are stages in getting to know someone. We should take the first step, and then move on to the later. It?s a process that you have to undertake. Do not rush things and try to ?jump? because you may see a God alone person, and then figures out this person is not suitable with you. 10 months is not much to ask, really. It gives you a sufficient amount of time to get to know someone, to be attracted and comfortable with her physically, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually.
It takes time, but not necessarily a lot of time. You do not need 10 months. Ever heard about efficiency? When a machine works slowly, you can just fix it a little, like a mechanic. Ohh, I forgot, we can not equate human beings to objects '( Haha, kidding. I like the idea of stages by the way.
No, we cannot change people. But does that mean we should not attempt at showing them the truth?
Off course not. And I have never said that we shouldn't attempt at showing them the truth. You can definitely attempt at showing the truth to people you don't want to get to know on a personal level.
I believe most of us are here were not a Qur?an-based muslims to begin with, and rather follow the tradition and the religion of our ancestors. So why should we act all exclusive and disregard the others who may have found their ways here?
The word Quran-based-muslim does not exist in the Quran. Hence, it is an unquranic word. We are monotheists. And a person can either be a muslim or a mumin. Yes, we shouldn't be exclusive. And there are people who believe in God alone who have not found this forum yet but can be seen in other places (right places).
Some people have tendencies to follow God-alone, and yet the environment does not support it. Some people may not have the access to unadulterated Qur?an but believe in following God alone and not man-made cultures, do you deny the idea to at least convey your belief to the person?
Off course I don't deny that idea. But I believe you can convey your belief to someone without wanting to get to know them on a personal level, as I have already mentioned. For example many people convey their ideas to their friends. And friends are people you don't get to know on a personal level. But I am not sure about you. You may have ulterior motives. You never know when it comes to aussies
I believe most of us are here were not a Qur?an-based muslims to begin with, and rather follow the tradition and the religion of our ancestors. So why should we act all exclusive and disregard the others who may have found their ways here?
Am I being exclusive if I don't get to know a woman on a personal level, but convey my belief to her as a friend instead? You should ask yourself this question
I thought someone?s plans for the future speaks out about the heart of someone? Vision of the future tells us a lot about one?s stance on their belief system. We can assume that someone is passionate about Islam and its implementation, if they tell us that in the future, they want to create non-profit organisation that helps fight poverty, or establish an orphanage in a developing country, or help develop the infrastructure of the community in need, or fight for human rights, etc.
I see your point. And your point is valid. At the same time "Action speaks louder than words". Talk is cheap. And some people will not tell you their plans for their future, because they like to accomplish something first, and then tell it (if they feel like telling it). Hence one of my favourite quotes "Show, don't tell." And when you show, your actions will speak so loud that you do not need to say a word.
"A picture says more than a thousand words".