Trouble with such differing views
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@ David_k. Salaams and thank you for your response on this. I read all of it too and I appreciated it a lot because you took the time to give your views and since clearly it's something that you have experience in and think about. I also agree with so much of what you said. I also made a decision that I was not going to marry someone who didn't have the same basic belief system - unfortunately I changed though ( I seem to have been kidding myself for a long time because I know that initially I had a lot of trouble with hadith...then I learned to tow the line, so to speak. I heard the excuses and I tried to take them on board so that I could believe in the same way as my friends, the majority. I really believed that I believed, if that makes sense. But clearly I couldn't sustain such dishonesty. It's important to be clear and reasonably stable in what you believe before you go looking for a partner....
I thoroughly agree on looking beyond money and all of those trappings. That is one thing I did right, hamdulillah I did something right, lol. You are right about change - we all change constantly, but it's rarely the things that a husband or wife might want to change in their partner. Allah is the guide of these things and if you go in with that intention you are really starting off badly. I think that I was targeted in this way, probably he didn't realise he was doing it, and it didn't work well. I was shaped with subtle words for a long time regarding dress & conduct like not listening to music and various other hadith based things. Turns out that I have pretty much reverted to the person I was beforehand now...funny.
One thing I do feel a little angry about, not only towards the person in question but also towards myself, is this When I was looking for a husband I was very clear about what I was looking for. I spelled it out in detail (not too much but not too little either). It seems that he ignored that and decided to change me instead. I for my part allowed that for a long time and it backfired for both of us - big time!
The thing you said about being able to discuss things intellectually, which Sonnie mentioned too, is such an excellent question to ask. When I look back I couldn't ever do this. We could only talk about what hadith says. What the Imams say. What particular books and websites say...there was never intellectual, logical, debate or argument over anything. There should have been warning bells over so many things.
@ Sonnie - I think that support is a really big part of a relationship too. It's one of those things you miss out on as a single person. You support each other by being there for each other, by open communication, cooperation and even through the security of an enduring relationship with someone who you are constantly getting to know better. As you say, the small things, but in fact they are big things. )
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@David
wow. that is really a well thought out response; I actually read all of it Wink I agree with almost all of your points...- You really do have to ask yourself why do I want to get married?
- Can you have an intellectual conversation with her? What is her actual/true/honest view point regarding God/Qur'an?
- You definatly don't need 10 months to tell if she is the one. You can probably tell if she is really the one within weeks.
Peace Sonnie
My last post was different from many of my other posts. I used a different writing style, to reach a broader audience. I wrote a post that can appeal to as many members as possible in this forum, and that they can relate to. I like to write, and sometimes I switch styles.
I'm glad that you agree with most of my views in my last post. In my last post my views and conclusions in are based on logic and reason. And I shared my knowledge and experience about psychology and philosophy.
The question about why a person wants to get married is one of the most important questions. The goal of marriage should be to work for the next life, and cooperate together to achieve twice as much as you would achieve if you were single and alone. If a marriage is built on a good foundation, your life will become easier and in better in all ways.
It's important to find out right from the beginning what the belief system of a person is. Some of the first questions we should ask the person we want to get to know are the following. What is your view about God? What is your view about islam? What is your about the hereafter? When most people get to know someone they forget these questions. I myself have forgotten to ask these questions in the beginning. I instead asked what are your interest, what are your dreams, plans for future etc. All these questions are good, but if we want to look into the heart of someone and the mind of someone, we should instead ask questions about islam and spirituality.
Yes, you definetely don't need 10 months. And if the person you want to get to know on a personal level, is from this forum, you only need a couple of days, to read the posts of the person, and then you will see if the person is compatible with you (has the same belief system, values and view points).
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@ David_k. Salaams and thank you for your response on this. I read all of it too and I appreciated it a lot because you took the time to give your views and since clearly it's something that you have experience in and think about. I also agree with so much of what you said. I also made a decision that I was not going to marry someone who didn't have the same basic belief system - unfortunately I changed though I seem to have been kidding myself for a long time because I know that initially I had a lot of trouble with hadith...then I learned to tow the line, so to speak. I heard the excuses and I tried to take them on board so that I could believe in the same way as my friends, the majority. I really believed that I believed, if that makes sense. But clearly I couldn't sustain such dishonesty. It's important to be clear and reasonably stable in what you believe before you go looking for a partner....
Peace Rana )
Your welcome. And It's nice to hear that you appreciated my post. It's so easy to deceive ourselves. But it's never too late to follow our heart again. When it comes to get to know women, I have deceived myself a couple of times as well, the last couple of years. But I learned from my mistakes, and moved on. To follow the majority, is what most people have done and still do. With majority, we get support, alone, we have to take responsibility, therefore it is easier to follow the majority. But things which are easier, are not necessarily better. If I read between the lines, you are married. How long have you been married?
I thoroughly agree on looking beyond money and all of those trappings. That is one thing I did right, hamdulillah I did something right, lol. You are right about change - we all change constantly, but it's rarely the things that a husband or wife might want to change in their partner. Allah is the guide of these things and if you go in with that intention you are really starting off badly. I think that I was targeted in this way, probably he didn't realise he was doing it, and it didn't work well. I was shaped with subtle words for a long time regarding dress & conduct like not listening to music and various other hadith based things. Turns out that I have pretty much reverted to the person I was beforehand now...funny.
You say, that you have reverted to the person you was beforehand. Do you mean that you have become like how you was before you found Quran-based-islam? If your answer is yes, what can you do to become the person you want? How can you manifest your belief system into your life again?
One thing I do feel a little angry about, not only towards the person in question but also towards myself, is this When I was looking for a husband I was very clear about what I was looking for. I spelled it out in detail (not too much but not too little either). It seems that he ignored that and decided to change me instead. I for my part allowed that for a long time and it backfired for both of us - big time!
I have also been very clear about what I looked for in a woman in the past. But I realized that what I looked for was not based on the Quranic principles. And I think that's why I had to reject the women I got to know. If what we are looking for is based on the Quran instead of personal desires, then I believe we will find the right one much faster. When we create criterias based on personal desires, we will fool ourselves because we don't know who is best for us. Only God knows which future partner that will be best for us. I got a question. Have you decided to continue being staying with your husband, even dough you and him are different?
The thing you said about being able to discuss things intellectually, which Sonnie mentioned too, is such an excellent question to ask. When I look back I couldn't ever do this. We could only talk about what hadith says. What the Imams say. What particular books and websites say...there was never intellectual, logical, debate or argument over anything. There should have been warning bells over so many things.
Thanks. I was already convinced that I will never get to know sunni muslim women and women from other faiths on a personal level. But now you have convinced me even more than before ;D
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I've known for a long time that inter-religious marriages are really hard with a lot of test. I'd never had to consider what happens when two people are the same religion but with vastly different interpretations. Now I can see how hard it is. I know there are some people on here who seem to manage, somehow, with this. But I personally find it really hard to separate a persons beliefs from them as a person. For me the beliefs are the person. This means that in practice if the person is a friend or an acqaintence it's fine. I get on with a vast range of people as friends - but when it's someone you are really close to...as in your husband/wife - how can this work?
Truth is everything then...because if the differences are that big not only do you have to live with the consequences of what they believe in but it's hard to have the kind of strong respect that you should/must have in those kind of relationships. I actually feel really sad writing that. ( It's just my opinion & my feelings of course.
Hamdulillah for Quran, for logic and for people who continue to seek answers and may Allah guide me.
Peace,
Respect.I know how you feel.
May God help us all.Peace.
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peace david_k
"truth stood on one side and ease on the other; it has often been so" (Theodore Parker)
What I meant about reverting to how I was is that when I first converted I seemed to be concentrating more on the basic things, the important things - it wasn't all about whether I listened to music, told people what I dreamed the night before, whether I sang (in private mind you )), danced, whistled and which hand I ate with. I was creative and alive before! But that gradually began to change. Now I feel I am changing back with many things. I still have a lot of confusion though and it's hard to move past some things. It's a period of unlearning and re-learning. I think time will do it; then again, some things I am not ready to stop doing as they provide a good cover for me as I don't want to be ostracised (at least not at the moment) by the community. I hope I've answered your question. Basically I mean revert to a more free-thinking and lively practice of Islam, not to stop practising.
I think the only way now is to be strong and move forward, reading Quran in an attempt to rid myself of all the falsity I have taken in and as I am currently separated, adjusting to that. Hamdulillah that we have this strong guidance from Allah in Quran. It makes life easier. I have gained a lot from this forum since I joined (well actually since before that) and this thread has been helpful. If I am ever in the position again to choose a partner I think the advice I've gained from the forum will help a lot. I don't think I made responsible enough decisions before. Live and learn.
"And We have come to them with a Book which We have detailed with knowledge; a guide and a mercy to those who believe." Quran 752
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Peace Rana
Nice quote from Theodore parket (It's the first time i read it).
I see. Yes, you have answered my question. I understand that you don't want to be ostracised by the community. No one wants that. I myself have told few people about my inner beliefs when it comes to islam. I adapt to different environments. We can learn from the chameleon who change colors. The most adaptable persons will survive. A person must either "adapt or die". And that's why I like the philosophy part of the theory evolution.
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Peace Rana, all
By the way, I know it is off-topic, but I got a question. I have always wondered why women have a special code of loyalty. For example, Jane likes a man by the name Jeff. But Jeff don't like Jane, he likes Jane's friend. The name of her friend is Julia. Jeff shows interest to Julia, but Julia rejects him. Julia don't reject him because she is not attracted to him, but because she has talked to her friend Jane, and Julia has promised Jane to not get to know the guy that Jane likes. As you can see, they have a special code of loyalty. But what is the point of this code of loyalty? What if this code is wrong? If Julia and Jeff are more compatible than Jane and Jeff, then isn't Julia making a mistake by promising her friend to reject Jeff? This doesn't make sense. Rana, do you know why women have this special code of loyalty? And do you think women should have it?
Also, it would be nice if other women in this forum can answer my question. I would like to hear your thoughts, your answers.
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Salaam david_k.
I have never come across this sort of behaviour. I have to add that this doesn't mean it happens. I think the fact that you are asking the question shows you have experienced it. My first thought was that I'm not a young girl and maybe this is something new that the younger folk are doing rotfl But more likely it's just something that certain people do, not others.
While loyalty is a wonderful thing it does seem a bad fit in this situation. If the woman that the man likes rejects him it does not necessarily mean that he will then fall in love with the other woman (the one that likes him). Life isn't like that and I suppose that was your point. I agree it doesn't make sense. In matters of the heart I think we have to try to be happy for people where they find real love and companionship, not be jealous and try to prevent it. I tried to relate this to Quran but I couldn't think of specifics, though overall it seems that marriage as well as being about love is also a very practical thing for us. From partnerships we get companionship, help, love etc. It does seem really wrong that through playing games these partnerships are prevented.
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its sort of like the unspoken code even guys have...i kind of like it...because at the end of the day your friend is more important than most of the guys you have feelings for..but if the guy and girl are really good together and want to seriously be with each other, then its wrong..its the friends duty to let go of her prejudices and let the two people be. the code o floyalty is there bro, but its there to protect your friendship from just people who come and go. if the relationship is more than that then the girls should communicate and work it out. the code isnt like a brick wall that cant be broken down. its just a protective measure.
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its sort of like the unspoken code even guys have...i kind of like it...because at the end of the day your friend is more important than most of the guys you have feelings for..but if the guy and girl are really good together and want to seriously be with each other, then its wrong..its the friends duty to let go of her prejudices and let the two people be. the code o floyalty is there bro, but its there to protect your friendship from just people who come and go. if the relationship is more than that then the girls should communicate and work it out. the code isnt like a brick wall that cant be broken down. its just a protective measure.
I'm glad you had a go at answering. Clearly I don't have the experience lol. I see what you're saying, it's not nice if friendship get broken over meaningless things. peace
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Okey Ladies, here is how I see it now. If two women, who are friends, both are attracted to a guy, but the guy is only attracted to one of them, there are 2 solutions to this problem.
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Only the female who likes the guy the most, has the right to get to know him (not the other female). In other words, the females will choose.
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The guy will choose which one of them he wants to date (get to know). If the guy likes one of the females, but not the other, then it is game over for the other, and she has to accept that the guy don't wants her (that he wants the other female instead). in other words, the guy will choose. Ahh, this is the solution i like ;D
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Salaam all,
Oh wow. I left this thread and when I come back, so many replies that they give me headache D.
Anyway, I?ll try to put my two cents on what has been said.
Sister Raza,
the amount of hardship you face in interfaith marriages, or diff beliefs marriages varies a lot depending on how much two ppl love each other and are willing to accept the other person as part and parcel of loving them.i think i have the capacity to love someone and respect them if they have values of a good muslim, even if they might not be...how a person acts has far more resounding affects on the family as compared to what he may only believe (as is the case with many ppl who claim to be of a certain faith, but have no idea of wat its all about)
It?s true in some extent. It depends however what you base your relationship on. Is it based on emotional, intellectual and/or spiritual connection? Overall, I can get along and maintain a healthy peaceful relationship with someone with different beliefs. Sure. But I will not deny that I will feel the void of him not providing for my spiritual needs, and vice versa. Essentially, that is what I think you need to consider when you consider someone. Would you want spirituality to provide bond between you and your partner? Would you be okay and accepting of your partner?s actions that are not compatible with your beliefs (e.q. praying to Jesus, drinking)? Would you be able to sit back and let your loved one be, for the sake of respect?
Brother David,
Oh.My.God. What a block of texts I had to endure (haha kidding D). I will try attempting some of your answers, not all.
I think I will I have to disagree with you when you said that we should not look for our potential partner in any other place but this forum. Having a belief is one thing, but what is most important is whether you implement your belief and translate it into actions. You can only see this when you witness that person doing social works herself. How can you see it? By experiencing life out there, of course! You get to witness with your own eyes if that person is kind to another, if that person will spare her time to volunteer, if that person uses her intelligence and skills to improve her surroundings, etc. That is why you should not dismiss the idea of some people searching for their potential partners outside this virtual realm. Every option has its own pros and cons.
In regards to your comment on parents? expectation when it comes to their children?s potential partners, I think you just generalise things. Sure there are some selfish parents out there, but there too are genuine parents who wish nothing but the happiness of their children. They too can put things into perspectives. When someone is in love, they tend to be blind and make excuses for their partner?s obvious and glaring flaws. That?s when parents are there for you, to ensure that you do not fall into this trap. You may see a God alone woman and fall in love with her, and your emotion blinds you that you fail to see how this woman may not complement you as person. Not saying it will happen, it is only a possibility. Do not see parents? interference in your love affairs as 100% negative. They can see what you cannot see, and they have experienced what you have not experienced. Of course no one has the same experience, but essentially they may have more wisdom than you do. It is your responsibility to exercise logical thinking and open-mindedness to see the worth of their arguments.
Most parents have not experienced true love, and still they want to tell their son and daughter about what true love is. Isn't this strange? Isn't this illogical?
May I ask where you get your statistics when you say most parents have not experienced true love? ?Most? is a word that denotes a large quantity, so I assume you have talked to many married couples to come to this conclusion? Anyway, when I read your posts regarding parents? set questions, I cannot help but thinking that you are being too judgmental. That may be what your parents have asked you, but you cannot project your own experience into the others?.
Sure my parents have in the past asked these questions about someone?s level of education or financial circumstances but essentially it comes down to them asking what will complete me as a person, if we believe the same way. Parents can be logical, but because what you think may not be the same, you may not see their true intention. Ideally, a God alone man finds a God alone woman, and they shall live heavily ever after. Full stop? No. I hate to say it myself, but a portion of wealth and knowledge are essential. You need to be able to financially provide for your partner, or vice versa, and that is when wealth comes to the picture. I am not saying that we should get a rich partner, no. But at least someone with a sufficient means to provide for our survival, and I think that is precisely why some parents ask us if our prospective partner is financially sufficient. They don?t want us to live on the streets. They may ask of the level of education, that is because they want an intelligent person who will challenge the way we think. Sure, often times level of education does not equate intelligence, but not many see it that way. That being said, your parents, beyond all these illogical and nonsensical questions, may wish what is best for you.
You may think they only want you to serve their self interests, but perhaps they express their thoughts incorrectly when they want nothing but your own happiness. Stop and think, the true meanings of what they say. Your parents may ask you to get a rich person, maybe they want you to be able to give charity freely because that is what you believe. Your parents may ask you to get a person with high education, maybe they want someone who can match your level of intelligence. There are things that go beyond what they seem to be, so do not make judgment until you know the whole truth.
Your parents don't know who is the right one for you. Only you can know it. Nobody else knows it. So follow your heart.
They may have some ideas, especially when we are blinded by our emotions. When we make excuses saying that all these tiny flaws don?t matter because we are much in love. Parents can see all these, and tell you their perspectives. I learnt it the hard way.
Many people say, I have to get to know him or her 10 months before I know if he or she is the right one. Well, if you want to get know someone for that long, then he or she isn't the right one.
Seriously, you think 10 months is a long time? A person is not like a diamond, so don?t make that analogy. A person has a layer of emotions, appearances that cannot be equated to an object. In two days, you can ?see? a cheerful, talkative and outgoing woman who totally captures your heart. You may think that she is the one because she encapsulates of what you want in a woman, based on you initial, visual assessment in a span of two days. But will you be able to get to know what she has been through in her life, what is going on her mind? Will you know that this woman may actually be lonely inside, and that she struggles to impress everyone, to make everyone notice her? Will you get to know her that much, if you do not want to take that journey of getting to know someone? There are things about someone, that you can only find out when you take the time to know them.
How can you get to know someone? You contact someone you like, talk with them on the internet, meet them in real life, and then you get married. That's all.
The theory sounds wonderful, but most of the times it won?t work like that. On internet, you cannot see one?s expressions; hence you speculate based on what people write. You construct this image of how a person may be in real life, which is not necessarily the case. In internet, people can talk their talk. They can say that they are passionate about Islam and their visions of a better world, but they may not really translate their words into actions. And ultimately, you create a picture of someone based on what they say, you become convinced that this person is the one. Then you get married and find out, that this person is all talk and does not walk the walk.
I am not completely trashing this idea. It can work in some cases. But then you have to be patient, and do not rush into things. Do not start off thinking of a person as a potential partner, but rather know them as a person. As a brother/sister in faith. Then you get to know this person, inside and out, and she knows you inside and out. Then when you feel that you are comfortable with sharing your life, then you see if things are going to work out. It is a process, and we should not be haste just because we want to get to the end result.
You may disagree with me, but the process of getting to know someone requires a lot of time. An ideal person is of course someone who can elevate us spiritually. But in my opinion, being spiritually attracted is one of the last and most ?advanced? stage there is. The first is physical attraction. Superficial as it is, we first get attracted to someone based on their looks. I will not deny that, and no one should deny it. We are not monks nor should we wish to be one. The second stage is being attracted intellectually, when you can discuss certain issues without being bored to death. Intellectual discussion helps you better your understanding of the world around you, and make you a person with more awareness. Then it advances to emotional connection, you become comfortable in disclosing your true emotions, your passion and your life. This is an important ingredient, I think, in marriage (how would I know!) because you will be living with someone where honesty and openness should exist. Then the last is spiritual connection, where you put together your common beliefs and strive in the Path of God. What I am trying to say, there are stages in getting to know someone. We should take the first step, and then move on to the later. It?s a process that you have to undertake. Do not rush things and try to ?jump? because you may see a God alone person, and then figures out this person is not suitable with you. 10 months is not much to ask, really. It gives you a sufficient amount of time to get to know someone, to be attracted and comfortable with her physically, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually.
Many people dream about marrying someone and then wanting to change them. Let me put logic under the microscope so you can see it clearly. You can never change anyone. Period. You can only inspire people. And then, if they can or will, they will change. Let me tell you what people are willing to change. People are willing to change their car, change their house, even change their husband or their wife. But the hardest thing for human beings is to change their belief system.
The person will most likely not change, and not follow your belief system. Instead find someone who has the same belief system as you. Bet on a safe card. Find a finished package. Don't look for a half package.
No, we cannot change people. But does that mean we should not attempt at showing them the truth? Some people have tendencies to follow God-alone, and yet the environment does not support it. Some people may not have the access to unadulterated Qur?an but believe in following God alone and not man-made cultures, do you deny the idea to at least convey your belief to the person? I believe most of us are here were not a Qur?an-based muslims to begin with, and rather follow the tradition and the religion of our ancestors. So why should we act all exclusive and disregard the others who may have found their ways here?
I instead asked what are your interest, what are your dreams, plans for future etc. All these questions are good, but if we want to look into the heart of someone and the mind of someone, we should instead ask questions about islam and spirituality.
I thought someone?s plans for the future speaks out about the heart of someone? Vision of the future tells us a lot about one?s stance on their belief system. We can assume that someone is passionate about Islam and its implementation, if they tell us that in the future, they want to create non-profit organisation that helps fight poverty, or establish an orphanage in a developing country, or help develop the infrastructure of the community in need, or fight for human rights, etc.
Anyway, that is all I want to address to you for the time being.
Sister Rana,
I agree with most of what you said, especially about the unlearning and relearning processes. I sincerely hope that you can move forward, putting everything behind you. Just know that there will be many people here who will support you. I too have gained tremendous support from many people here group (love them much).
PS Maybe you can come down to Sydney and we can all share the lurrveeeee (and you need to tell me more about battling yeast!).
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@ bornagain - I would love to come to Sydney and meet up...yes we could do some baking and more!! P
I do agree with you that people are very multi-layered creatures and it's not always easy to get to know them in a short time. Even if you look at your friendships you see that over time you find out more and more about the person and they get more comfortable so they show more as well.
Though I think I can relate to what david_k was saying as well....sometimes relationships can be made too complicated. Then again they are complicated things... ???
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Salam BornAgain
Yes, there are some generalizations. And that's because it was an essay. Your thoughts are as valid as my thoughts, but they do not invalidate my thoughts. The validity of my arguments stand strong like threes when the wind hits them. Your thoughts just show another side of the mental realm of the issues. And you have some good points.
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Sister BornAgain
It was unfair of me to write such a short post when you had written a long post to me. You were kind, and invested time in writing a long post to me. So I decided to write a longer post to you. Let me write my thoughts, and answer your questions.
Oh.My.God. What a block of texts I had to endure (haha kidding D). I will try attempting some of your answers, not all.
What a boring sentence I had to endure Do you want to bore me so much that I fall asleep? Save your boring sentences for boring people... haha kidding D
I think I will I have to disagree with you when you said that we should not look for our potential partner in any other place but this forum.
If I said that we should only look for our potential partner in this forum, then I wouldn't be able to forgive myself. Lol. You are fast with pulling the trigger, but you won't hit any zombies that are out of your scope. So hold your fire, I am human
I did not say that we should not look for our partner in any other place but this forum. I said, we should look for the right one in the right places, see what I wrote in my post one more time.
To find the right one, you have to be at the right places. Where is the right places? The right places are places where there are people that have the same belief system as you. The right places are places where there are people that believe in God alone. Don't go to the church, the mosque, the university, the cafeteria or the shopping mall. These are usually wrong places.
Also see this quote from my post
The right ones are in this forum, and they are in other places where you can find those who believe in God alone.
And I think this forum might be one of the best places.
Having a belief is one thing, but what is most important is whether you implement your belief and translate it into actions. You can only see this when you witness that person doing social works herself.
The Quran teaches us that we can give money, or do social works openly or secretly. Some people don't like to tell much about what they do in their leisure time. It is best not show people what we do. The Quran teaches us this. Our reward is only with God, not with people. But you are right to a certain degree. The best way to see it is when you witness that person doing social works. At the same time, it is not the only way to see it. You can also see it if someone does good works, through his or her mind as well. Our mind is a reflection of what we do. If someone is a good person (does good deeds) this will be reflected in their mind. For example they will be pure, have a pure heart. Also someone's understanding of the Quran, can be a direct reflection of what action they do in their leisure time. People that do lots of good deeds, may understand the Quran on a deeper level than those who don't do good deeds. You should verify what I am telling you. Because I might be wrong about this one. But I think what I am saying is based on what I have learned from the Quran.
How can you see it? By experiencing life out there, of course! You get to witness with your own eyes if that person is kind to another, if that person will spare her time to volunteer, if that person uses her intelligence and skills to improve her surroundings, etc. That is why you should not dismiss the idea of some people searching for their potential partners outside this virtual realm. Every option has its own pros and cons.
I agree. And I have never said that someone should only search for a partner in this virtual realm (forum, internet etc.)
In regards to your comment on parents? expectation when it comes to their children?s potential partners, I think you just generalise things. Sure there are some selfish parents out there, but there too are genuine parents who wish nothing but the happiness of their children. They too can put things into perspectives. When someone is in love, they tend to be blind and make excuses for their partner?s obvious and glaring flaws. That?s when parents are there for you, to ensure that you do not fall into this trap. You may see a God alone woman and fall in love with her, and your emotion blinds you that you fail to see how this woman may not complement you as person. Not saying it will happen, it is only a possibility. Do not see parents? interference in your love affairs as 100% negative. They can see what you cannot see, and they have experienced what you have not experienced. Of course no one has the same experience, but essentially they may have more wisdom than you do. It is your responsibility to exercise logical thinking and open-mindedness to see the worth of their arguments.
I understand your point. But your thoughts do not invalidate my arguments, they just show another side of the mental realm. Parents can give their sons and daughters good advice (there is no doubt about that). But my point was something else. Parents that have not experience true love, and don't have had happy marriages can not teach it to their children, or tell them who they should get married to if their children want to be happy. Hence my metaphor; about the person who want to build a house for people.
May I ask where you get your statistics when you say most parents have not experienced true love? ?Most? is a word that denotes a large quantity, so I assume you have talked to many married couples to come to this conclusion? Anyway, when I read your posts regarding parents? set questions, I cannot help but thinking that you are being too judgmental. That may be what your parents have asked you, but you cannot project your own experience into the others?.
You are calling me judgmental, but perhaps I know what you do not know. As I have said many times in this forum to different people, "We should focus on the message instead of the man." I am not important. It is my message which is important (if it holds any weight). And if it does not hold any weight, it is unimportant.
You don't need statistics to understand human nature. Just like you don't need statistics to understand nature. You don't need to have statistics to know that if a human being throws a ball into the air it will fall and hit the ground. The universe is governed by laws, and if you look into those laws with a psychological mindset/experience, you will see how people break those laws often (including myself). The laws of human nature are "unseen". While the laws of nature are "seen". And the unseen can only be experienced. God is also unseen. You can not see God, but you can feel God's presence. Besides, the Quran tells us that the majority are wrong, they do not think, they only guess. You can only experience true love if you think, not if you guess. And true love is eternal. So when you see all these people in your country who gets divorced, then you know that it is not true love. They have not experienced true love in their marriage. When you see all these people argue and fight over petty problems, then you know that is not true love. They have not experienced true love in their marriage. There can exist no hate in true love, just like there can exist no darkness in light.
I hate to say it myself, but a portion of wealth and knowledge are essential. You need to be able to financially provide for your partner, or vice versa, and that is when wealth comes to the picture.
A man should provide for his partner, if he is able to do it (the Quran teaches us this). So I acknowledge this. However, there is a difference between real wealth and false wealth.
I am not saying that we should get a rich partner, no. But at least someone with a sufficient means to provide for our survival, and I think that is precisely why some parents ask us if our prospective partner is financially sufficient. They don?t want us to live on the streets. They may ask of the level of education, that is because they want an intelligent person who will challenge the way we think. Sure, often times level of education does not equate intelligence, but not many see it that way. That being said, your parents, beyond all these illogical and nonsensical questions, may wish what is best for you.
Yes, someone's parents may wish the best for them. But there is a huge difference between what they believe is best for their sons and daughters, and what really is best for their sons and daughter. There is a huge difference between wishful thinking and reality.
You may think they only want you to serve their self interests, but perhaps they express their thoughts incorrectly when they want nothing but your own happiness. Stop and think, the true meanings of what they say. Your parents may ask you to get a rich person, maybe they want you to be able to give charity freely because that is what you believe.
I have never think that they only want to serve their self interests. I said that they most likely will have self-interest. There is a difference between, only and most likely.
Your parents will most likely focus on their self-interest.
I said that they serve their self-interests if they ask the following questions
If they want your future partner to have the same ethnicity as you, they are focusing on their self-interest. If they want your future partner to have prestige or fame in the society, they are focusing on their self-interest.
And what I quoted (which I wrote in my last post) is completely logical. If you want, you can try to find any logical holes in what I quoted above. And If you find it, I will gladly change my view
Seriously, you think 10 months is a long time? A person is not like a diamond, so don?t make that analogy. A person has a layer of emotions, appearances that cannot be equated to an object.
When I said 10 months it was just an example. I thought people would read between the lines and see my underlying point.
I can make any analogy I like. So you shouldn't tell me what I should do or don't do. I do what I want whenever I want (as long as I don't break any quranic laws, human rights, etc. I don't like people telling me what I should do. And I don't think that you like someone telling you what you should do neither.
And the fact is, that my analogy was valid. It was actually valid. A human being who knows how a diamond looks like (when he sees it) is similar to a human being who knows if someone is the right one (when he sees her). If you know what you look for (a diamond) is similiar to knowing what another person looks for (the right one). Besides, I didn't equate a person to an object. I equated a person who looks for a diamond, to a person who looks for the right one. No where in my paragraph I said that I compared a human being to a diamond. And besides, sometimes we can actually compare a human being to an object. For example, some scientists compare the human brain to a computer (an object). And their analogy is valid, because there are similiarities between a human brain and a computer. In a human brain you can install ideas. In a computer you can install ideas through programs. And in a human brain you can delete ideas (unlearning). And in a computer you can delete programs.
A person has a layer of emotions, appearances that cannot be equated to an object. In two days, you can ?see? a cheerful, talkative and outgoing woman who totally captures your heart. You may think that she is the one because she encapsulates of what you want in a woman, based on you initial, visual assessment in a span of two days. But will you be able to get to know what she has been through in her life, what is going on her mind? Will you know that this woman may actually be lonely inside, and that she struggles to impress everyone, to make everyone notice her? Will you get to know her that much, if you do not want to take that journey of getting to know someone? There are things about someone, that you can only find out when you take the time to know them.
I understand what you mean, and when I read between the lines, I can see that the person you are talking about is not a stranger. Now try to read the between the lines and see if you can understand what I mean
In two days, you can ?see? a cheerful, talkative and outgoing woman who totally captures your heart. You may think that she is the one because she encapsulates of what you want in a woman, based on you initial, visual assessment in a span of two days. But will you be able to get to know what she has been through in her life, what is going on her mind? Will you know that this woman may actually be lonely inside, and that she struggles to impress everyone, to make everyone notice her? Will you get to know her that much, if you do not want to take that journey of getting to know someone? There are things about someone, that you can only find out when you take the time to know them.
I see your point. But maybe those things are irrelevant when it comes to marriage. Maybe you will know those things later. Morality, sincerity, intelligence, and other things are the essentials. These are the fundamentals you need to know. You can leave the details to later.
The theory sounds wonderful, but most of the times it won?t work like that. On internet, you cannot see one?s expressions; hence you speculate based on what people write. You construct this image of how a person may be in real life, which is not necessarily the case. In internet, people can talk their talk. They can say that they are passionate about Islam and their visions of a better world, but they may not really translate their words into actions. And ultimately, you create a picture of someone based on what they say, you become convinced that this person is the one. Then you get married and find out, that this person is all talk and does not walk the walk.
I agree with your view, at the same time, as I already said, you can see if someone is the real deal through his/her mind. Also, you can see it through his or her action. For example, there are members on this forum who are passionate about islam, and write articles and books abouttrue islam and hadith, and are fighting for the cause of our deen. So some actions can be seen, even on a forum.
I am not completely trashing this idea. It can work in some cases. But then you have to be patient, and do not rush into things. Do not start off thinking of a person as a potential partner, but rather know them as a person. As a brother/sister in faith. Then you get to know this person, inside and out, and she knows you inside and out. Then when you feel that you are comfortable with sharing your life, then you see if things are going to work out. It is a process, and we should not be haste just because we want to get to the end result.
You completely enlightened me with your view bravo I totally agree with you. This is the best way
You may disagree with me, but the process of getting to know someone requires a lot of time. An ideal person is of course someone who can elevate us spiritually. But in my opinion, being spiritually attracted is one of the last and most ?advanced? stage there is. The first is physical attraction. Superficial as it is, we first get attracted to someone based on their looks. I will not deny that, and no one should deny it. We are not monks nor should we wish to be one. The second stage is being attracted intellectually, when you can discuss certain issues without being bored to death. Intellectual discussion helps you better your understanding of the world around you, and make you a person with more awareness. Then it advances to emotional connection, you become comfortable in disclosing your true emotions, your passion and your life. This is an important ingredient, I think, in marriage (how would I know!) because you will be living with someone where honesty and openness should exist. Then the last is spiritual connection, where you put together your common beliefs and strive in the Path of God. What I am trying to say, there are stages in getting to know someone. We should take the first step, and then move on to the later. It?s a process that you have to undertake. Do not rush things and try to ?jump? because you may see a God alone person, and then figures out this person is not suitable with you. 10 months is not much to ask, really. It gives you a sufficient amount of time to get to know someone, to be attracted and comfortable with her physically, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually.
It takes time, but not necessarily a lot of time. You do not need 10 months. Ever heard about efficiency? When a machine works slowly, you can just fix it a little, like a mechanic. Ohh, I forgot, we can not equate human beings to objects '( Haha, kidding. I like the idea of stages by the way.
No, we cannot change people. But does that mean we should not attempt at showing them the truth?
Off course not. And I have never said that we shouldn't attempt at showing them the truth. You can definitely attempt at showing the truth to people you don't want to get to know on a personal level.
I believe most of us are here were not a Qur?an-based muslims to begin with, and rather follow the tradition and the religion of our ancestors. So why should we act all exclusive and disregard the others who may have found their ways here?
The word Quran-based-muslim does not exist in the Quran. Hence, it is an unquranic word. We are monotheists. And a person can either be a muslim or a mumin. Yes, we shouldn't be exclusive. And there are people who believe in God alone who have not found this forum yet but can be seen in other places (right places).
Some people have tendencies to follow God-alone, and yet the environment does not support it. Some people may not have the access to unadulterated Qur?an but believe in following God alone and not man-made cultures, do you deny the idea to at least convey your belief to the person?
Off course I don't deny that idea. But I believe you can convey your belief to someone without wanting to get to know them on a personal level, as I have already mentioned. For example many people convey their ideas to their friends. And friends are people you don't get to know on a personal level. But I am not sure about you. You may have ulterior motives. You never know when it comes to aussies
I believe most of us are here were not a Qur?an-based muslims to begin with, and rather follow the tradition and the religion of our ancestors. So why should we act all exclusive and disregard the others who may have found their ways here?
Am I being exclusive if I don't get to know a woman on a personal level, but convey my belief to her as a friend instead? You should ask yourself this question
I thought someone?s plans for the future speaks out about the heart of someone? Vision of the future tells us a lot about one?s stance on their belief system. We can assume that someone is passionate about Islam and its implementation, if they tell us that in the future, they want to create non-profit organisation that helps fight poverty, or establish an orphanage in a developing country, or help develop the infrastructure of the community in need, or fight for human rights, etc.
I see your point. And your point is valid. At the same time "Action speaks louder than words". Talk is cheap. And some people will not tell you their plans for their future, because they like to accomplish something first, and then tell it (if they feel like telling it). Hence one of my favourite quotes "Show, don't tell." And when you show, your actions will speak so loud that you do not need to say a word.
"A picture says more than a thousand words".
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Clearly I'm not the only one with these issues You are dead right about the children thing - things become much more complicated once there are children and it's very good to realise that before you get too far into the relationship. Praise God I did just that, but I have children already and I have experienced the ''difference in values/opinions'' already in relation to them. It is hard. Thanks for your comments.
I also have kids ... but fortunately at this stage (they're still pretty young) I am the one who is mainly teaching them about things. Even though my husband is pro-hadiths, he's not as adamant about them like his other family is.
It is a huge gap, even with us both being Muslims - we have vastly different views on things. He sometimes attacks me (verbally, not physically) and says that I don't follow Islam, or other related things. The other day he was asking if I know lyrics for certain songs - I replied in the affirmative - and his next question (which wasn't unexpected) was why I couldn't memorize the Qur'an. I told him I saw no point in memorizing it, I would just be repeating something I didn't understand. Makes perfect sense to me, but not to him. -
I also have kids ... but fortunately at this stage (they're still pretty young) I am the one who is mainly teaching them about things. Even though my husband is pro-hadiths, he's not as adamant about them like his other family is.
It is a huge gap, even with us both being Muslims - we have vastly different views on things. He sometimes attacks me (verbally, not physically) and says that I don't follow Islam, or other related things. The other day he was asking if I know lyrics for certain songs - I replied in the affirmative - and his next question (which wasn't unexpected) was why I couldn't memorize the Qur'an. I told him I saw no point in memorizing it, I would just be repeating something I didn't understand. Makes perfect sense to me, but not to him.Salaam aynur. Thanks for putting your comments in. I'm sorry to hear it's difficult with your husband. I hope that manage ok, despite these things, though I am not sure that I would. I have been in a situation similar and I found it soul destroying. I know what you mean about memorising Quran. I attended a party recently for a boy who had finished his first reading and had memorised a lot (don't think it was all) and I wondered how much understanding he had (I actually I had the urge to go and question him on things, lol, but I refrained)...inshAllah he understands a lot, but who knows. It doesn't seem to be the most important thing sometimes.
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Asalamo alaikum.
Wow what long posts! I have been at odds with the way I was taught Islam for years now. The arguing over hadiths really got to me. I have found peace through just excepting Allah's swt word. I have changed the way I pray and the amount of times I pray. My husband is beside himself. He says I am on the wrong path and to please be his soulmate and come back to the right path, as Allah swt made pairs for each of us that are of like minds. So in other words I am no longer like minded to that of my husband and it fills his heart with sadness. It's only been a week since I changed, but it has had such a significant impact on my marriage. Now I know the truth I cannot change. I have given all my evidences to my husband the rest is up to him. I just couldn't see how it could work, two people with such different views in the way we live our lives. I asked Allah to help me and as I was researching on the computer and I kept clicking on Surah 581. This happened over a period of 2 days. I eventually thought what is the Surah I keep clicking on? When I read it I was so happy! This was Allah swt telling me that it is OK I am on the right path and not to worry about my husband. AllahuAkbar! So I don't know what will happen or whether we will stay together but I know that my beautiful Creator has heard and accepted me, and that has put peace in my heart.Simone sun
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Asalamo alaikum.
Wow what long posts! I have been at odds with the way I was taught Islam for years now. The arguing over hadiths really got to me. I have found peace through just excepting Allah's swt word. I have changed the way I pray and the amount of times I pray. My husband is beside himself. He says I am on the wrong path and to please be his soulmate and come back to the right path, as Allah swt made pairs for each of us that are of like minds. So in other words I am no longer like minded to that of my husband and it fills his heart with sadness. It's only been a week since I changed, but it has had such a significant impact on my marriage. Now I know the truth I cannot change. I have given all my evidences to my husband the rest is up to him. I just couldn't see how it could work, two people with such different views in the way we live our lives. I asked Allah to help me and as I was researching on the computer and I kept clicking on Surah 581. This happened over a period of 2 days. I eventually thought what is the Surah I keep clicking on? When I read it I was so happy! This was Allah swt telling me that it is OK I am on the right path and not to worry about my husband. AllahuAkbar! So I don't know what will happen or whether we will stay together but I know that my beautiful Creator has heard and accepted me, and that has put peace in my heart.Simone sun
Wa alaikum asalaam Simone.
I'm glad that you have looked at things in a new light Simone and that it's brought you some peace. I'm sorry to hear how things are with your husband though. I can totally understand a mix of feeling blessed to be on the right path coupled with pain from the difficulty it causes with others since I have been in it too. It's really sad but inshAllah things will work out for you. Maybe he will come to see, who knows. But if a person is not already having their own doubts then this kind of thing tends to come as a huge shock.
The only Muslims that I have discussed this with outright have ended up being really shocked and it has all but ended our relationships sadly. One of them I really thought would be understanding since she does not exactly follow the majority way of doing things anyway - but when I told her about what I was doing with prayer - she became incredibly worried for me. The prayer thing is HUGE for them. Another friend has told me that if you aren't praying (or aren't praying the 5 anyway) you aren't considered Muslim...that's a common view unfortunately. It's not easy to keep respect or a relationship once someone makes that judgement.
But relationships are funny things...each one is different because each person is different. So I will pray that things for you work out. )
Good advice I came across yesterday was to remember how important it is to present nicely and not be too accusing in our dealings with those who believe hadith. I think this is even harder to do in a relationship, even though, it may be even more important. You can read it here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7819.0 I have made the mistake of being too blunt sometimes and it hasn't worked out well for me.
Hope you keep coming to the forum as it's a wonderful support for people like us