Same sex relationships/ marriages
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I think in both cases it is something that is not brought about by conditioning or if it is, it is the type of conditioning that the self has no controle of. I don't think a homosexual or someone attracted to children or someone attracted to animals sexually wanted turn out that way. So perhaps in this way homosexuality and paedophilia are related.
I still think you can't compare. Someone who is homosexual basically desires the same things heterosexual people desire ? love, companionship, connecting with another person on a mental, spiritual and physical level. Those things, obviously, are not possible with a minor or an animal. Wanting to have sex with a child means you are desiring something that will cause damage to the other person, this is clearly not the case when desiring a person of the same sex.
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Hmmm... seem to have lost a post in the backing up!
26160 The people of Lot denied the messengers.
26161 For their brother Lot said to them Will you not be righteous?
26162 I am to you a trustworthy messenger.
26163 So be aware of God and obey me.
26164 And I do not ask you for any wage, for my reward is upon the Lord of the worlds.
26165 Do you approach the males of the worlds?
26166 And you leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people!
26167 They said If you do not cease O Lot, you will be among those driven out.
26168 He said I am in severe opposition to your acts!2754 And Lot, when he said to his people Are you committing lewdness while you can clearly see?
2755 You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are an ignorant people.
2756 But the reply of his people was that they said Expel the family of Lot from your town, for they are a people who are being pure!
2757 So We saved him and his family, except for his wife; We found her to be of those doomed.
2758 And We rained down a rain upon them. Miserable was the rain of those warned.2928 And Lot, when he said to his people You commit a lewdness that no others in the world have done before!
2929 You sexually approach men, and you commit highway robbery, and you bring all vice to your society. But the only response from his people was to say Bring us the retribution of God, if you are being truthful!
2930 He said My Lord, grant me victory over the wicked people.
2931 And when Our messengers came to Abraham with good news, they said We are to destroy the people of such a town, for its people have been wicked.As you can see, it is quite explicit that homosexuality is the focus of condemnation here. The bible isn't explicit, it doesn't clarify the details of why God smites the Sodomites. In contrast, the Quran is explicit. It makes very clear why God disapproves of the Sodomites - and yes, it isn't just homosexuality, but it very much includes homosexuality. Luckily it's not quite as pervy as the bible story, no mention of Lot offering his daughters to the Sodomites to stop them raping his male guests ("thanks dad, you really know how to look after a girl", but it is most definitely an expression of antagonism towards guy on guy sexuality.
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Salaam,
Bottom line is we will disagree.
I believe homosexuality is wrong and sinful.
They just don't know what they're missing.
Check this outhttp//www.imdb.com/name/nm0001512/
http//www.imdb.com/name/nm0001287/
http//www.imdb.com/name/nm0809938/
http//www.imdb.com/name/nm0275486/
http//www.imdb.com/name/nm0275486/
and many more, very pretty gals, don't know why gays don't feel .... attracted .... confused
Peace.
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Luckily it's not quite as pervy as the bible story, no mention of Lot offering his daughters to the Sodomites to stop them raping his male guests ("thanks dad, you really know how to look after a girl"), but it is most definitely an expression of antagonism towards guy on guy sexuality.
Then you may want to look at 1571 & 1178.
You need to remember the time Lot lived in, women were commodities. It wasn't uncommon to
offer/trade women to prevent or cause something to happen.Also remember it's Lot speaking not God. Do you see how the story is repeated several times. If God wanted to say "gay=wrong" he could have done it in a few words very clearly. Why waste so much space to so say so little? Can you see the bigger picture?
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Salaam,
Bottom line is we will disagree.
I believe homosexuality is wrong and sinful.
They just don't know what they're missing.
Check this outhttp//www.imdb.com/name/nm0001512/
http//www.imdb.com/name/nm0001287/
http//www.imdb.com/name/nm0809938/
http//www.imdb.com/name/nm0275486/
http//www.imdb.com/name/nm0275486/
and many more, very pretty gals, don't know why gays don't feel .... attracted .... confused
Peace.
Attraction is based on more than just looks. Women have a lot more than that in case you didn't know.
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I think in Lot's narrative what shocks most is the aboslute lack of modesty of intimacy, the bestiality of the whole thing.
Somebody said that sex in the mind. I agree that in most cases, incuding what they call hetero or homo is so too. And many sexual problems are not so, but mental and emotional problems. That is why, I think, the Qur'an asks for bringing four witnesses or to shut up. People have a wright to tprocess their murky waters in their own terms, at their own pace... to walk that path and evolve without being intruded upon nor watched nor judged. They do not have to bare their minds. What lived in voluntary intimacy should not be brought out. To break the loyalty that one commits upon marriag is heinious, but there is no need to hang it on billboards.
I do not think that marriage is something that makes sense betwen people of the same sex, because as far as I understand it, marriage is for the benefit of assuring next generations, ar at least attempting to. Were there no generation, then there would not be a reason for society to uphold such an institution. The other aspects that we usually put into marriage, companionship, sex for the sake of sex only, love, or whatever can be had and exchanged without such an institution. People are friends and loyal even without being married, it is not as if outside marriage there was no possible human relationship. May be we are putting today to much store by marriage and not enough in relations, as if marriage was a universal policy for assured hapiness. We can see it is not, and may be it is not, because we have overloaded it with enormous expectations for everythin, which some marriages do fulfill, but others do not and there is nothing wrong with that.
Salaam
Salaam
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I still think you can't compare. Someone who is homosexual basically desires the same things heterosexual people desire ? love, companionship, connecting with another person on a mental, spiritual and physical level. Those things, obviously, are not possible with a minor or an animal. Wanting to have sex with a child means you are desiring something that will cause damage to the other person, this is clearly not the case when desiring a person of the same sex.
True but perhaps those who have this desire with regards to kids may also have such wants such as love, companionship etc with the kid but considering the difference between an adult and a kid, this would make it less possible if not impossible for them.
My point is that the desire in both cases is most likely sameish and perhaps and most likely the same as heterosexual desires. Whilst in the case of paedephillia the wrongness is clear, it is less clear in the case of homos.
Should two homosexuals have a relationship that is based not on lust but rather love, i can't see how they can be faulted morally UNLESS they also feel attracted to women in which case it would be a transgression I think.
But if they have no attraction towards women and then find others like themselves who lets say have the attributes of a believer whilst they themselves also have such attributes, then how can we fault them?
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Then you may want to look at 1571 & 1178.
You need to remember the time Lot lived in, women were commodities. It wasn't uncommon to
offer/trade women to prevent or cause something to happen.Also remember it's Lot speaking not God. Do you see how the story is repeated several times. If God wanted to say "gay=wrong" he could have done it in a few words very clearly. Why waste so much space to so say so little? Can you see the bigger picture?
Yep, I stand corrected, the Quranic story does share that perviness with the bible. Although I can't see in these Quranic stories about Lot any mention of the next stage of the pervy Bible episode, where Lot's daughters get him drunk and get pregnant by him. Please tell me that's not somewhere else in the Quran?
So the count has been raised to 5 repetitions of the Sodom story, of which 3 explicitly condemn the Sodomites for their homosexuality, 1 strongly suggests it, and the remaining 1 only moderately insinuates it.
If the Quran wanted to say homosexuality is wrong but not draw much attention to the wrongness it would say it only once. If it wants to hugely emphaise the wrongness of it and the importance of avoiding homosexuality, it would repeat it many times. That's what it does with other moral issues, like how it repeats the command "Guard your privates, except from your wives" several times. I can't see any wiggle room at all here.
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Hmmm... seem to have lost a post in the backing up!
As you can see, it is quite explicit that homosexuality is the focus of condemnation here. The bible isn't explicit, it doesn't clarify the details of why God smites the Sodomites. In contrast, the Quran is explicit. It makes very clear why God disapproves of the Sodomites - and yes, it isn't just homosexuality, but it very much includes homosexuality. Luckily it's not quite as pervy as the bible story, no mention of Lot offering his daughters to the Sodomites to stop them raping his male guests ("thanks dad, you really know how to look after a girl", but it is most definitely an expression of antagonism towards guy on guy sexuality.
From the verses you have quoted, it can still be argued that the Quran is not against homosexuality i think.
In the first set of verses, it is Lot who thinks that being attracted to males is lewdness (since he is being quoted) but there is no clear quranic verse which backs this. Another issue is that Lot says something which i would think is wrong (offering his own daughters) implying that he does make mistakes in his approach. -
Salam
If the verses in 415-16 are not about homosexuality then what are they then?
Surely the punishment for Zena between heterosexual people has been mentioned in 242.Peace
AsanaSalam Asana
verses 415-16 are- And those of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out.
And the two men who commit it from among you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful.The two men in this verse are commiting lewdness. I'm not sure that being a homosexual and having a homosexual partner counts as lewdness.
Because non homosexuals don't really know what homosexuals feel, then judging whether being a homosexual and having a relationship with another homosexual counts as lewdness is perhaps not possible.
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My personal opinion is being gay is not a sin but acting upomn it is.Any criticism welcome
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Salam Asana
verses 415-16 are- And those of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out.
And the two men who commit it from among you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful.416 doesn't say two men, compare and contrast it with 415 which clearly has the word "women" in it. Khalifa translated 416 correctly as couple.
Also 415 doesn't have the qualification "with each other". It is about a women in general acting in a lewed manner and 416 is about couples acting in a lewed manner.So neither are about lesbians and gays etc.
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Salam to all
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
The word in 415 is Al-fishata the same word has been used for people Lot in 780 , 2754 and 2928.
Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination/ Al-fishata; no one in the world has done it before!
Lot said to his people, "How could you commit such an abomination/ Al-fishata, publicly, while you see?
Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination/ Al-fishata, no one in the world has ever done it before you.
We know Al-fishata is homosexuality in those verses then why is it difficult for some to accept it that 415-16 are talking about homosexuality and that?s why God commands such a punishment for it like destroying the people of lot by condemning them to death.
Asana
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Peace Wakas
The word in 416 as ?wa-alladhni? is masculine dual which refers to 1male+1 female as well as 2 males too?.Therefore since the verse 415 refers to homosexuality looking at 416 in context too is talking about 2 males which means homosexuality.
Asana
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It has been said that 4.15 is about homosexuality, but I cannot see why. Fahisha is a general term and is not homosexuality and there is no indication that the fahisha that is being alluded to has anything to do with homosexuality or that the group of women does it with each other. Also, it would mean that homosexuality between two women is not targeted, but that it has to be group.
A writer in this forum put forward the insight that 4.15 is not about homosexuality, but about prostitution. To me that makes sense. Far more sense that this homosexuality thing. In fact it makes a lot of sense.
Salaam
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Peace huruf
Maybe you should compare the usage of Fahisha in verses like 3135, 422, 728, 1732 with 415, 780, 2754, 2928 as Al-Fahishah in order to see the difference of the meanings in context.
If you would like to consider the 415 is about female prostitution then you should show me what the punishment for the male prostitution is unless you?d like to tell me that it?s ok for male to do prostitution or it?s only women who do prostitution.
Any kind of sexual activity out of marriage is adultery and fornication and punishment for them is in 242.
The word for prostitution is "Al-bighi? not Al-Fahishah which we can read it in below verse
Those who cannot afford to get married shall maintain morality until GOD provides for them from His grace. Those among your servants who wish to be freed in order to marry, you shall grant them their wish, once you realize that they are honest. And give them from GOD's money that He has bestowed upon you. You shall not force your girls to commit prostitution, seeking the materials of this world, if they wish to be chaste. If anyone forces them, then GOD, seeing that they are forced, is Forgiver, Merciful.
Asana
