Same sex relationships/ marriages
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Salam
If the verses in 415-16 are not about homosexuality then what are they then?
Surely the punishment for Zena between heterosexual people has been mentioned in 242.Peace
AsanaSalam Asana
verses 415-16 are- And those of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out.
And the two men who commit it from among you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful.The two men in this verse are commiting lewdness. I'm not sure that being a homosexual and having a homosexual partner counts as lewdness.
Because non homosexuals don't really know what homosexuals feel, then judging whether being a homosexual and having a relationship with another homosexual counts as lewdness is perhaps not possible.
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My personal opinion is being gay is not a sin but acting upomn it is.Any criticism welcome
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Salam Asana
verses 415-16 are- And those of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out.
And the two men who commit it from among you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful.416 doesn't say two men, compare and contrast it with 415 which clearly has the word "women" in it. Khalifa translated 416 correctly as couple.
Also 415 doesn't have the qualification "with each other". It is about a women in general acting in a lewed manner and 416 is about couples acting in a lewed manner.So neither are about lesbians and gays etc.
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Salam to all
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
The word in 415 is Al-fishata the same word has been used for people Lot in 780 , 2754 and 2928.
Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination/ Al-fishata; no one in the world has done it before!
Lot said to his people, "How could you commit such an abomination/ Al-fishata, publicly, while you see?
Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination/ Al-fishata, no one in the world has ever done it before you.
We know Al-fishata is homosexuality in those verses then why is it difficult for some to accept it that 415-16 are talking about homosexuality and that?s why God commands such a punishment for it like destroying the people of lot by condemning them to death.
Asana
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Peace Wakas
The word in 416 as ?wa-alladhni? is masculine dual which refers to 1male+1 female as well as 2 males too?.Therefore since the verse 415 refers to homosexuality looking at 416 in context too is talking about 2 males which means homosexuality.
Asana
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It has been said that 4.15 is about homosexuality, but I cannot see why. Fahisha is a general term and is not homosexuality and there is no indication that the fahisha that is being alluded to has anything to do with homosexuality or that the group of women does it with each other. Also, it would mean that homosexuality between two women is not targeted, but that it has to be group.
A writer in this forum put forward the insight that 4.15 is not about homosexuality, but about prostitution. To me that makes sense. Far more sense that this homosexuality thing. In fact it makes a lot of sense.
Salaam
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Peace huruf
Maybe you should compare the usage of Fahisha in verses like 3135, 422, 728, 1732 with 415, 780, 2754, 2928 as Al-Fahishah in order to see the difference of the meanings in context.
If you would like to consider the 415 is about female prostitution then you should show me what the punishment for the male prostitution is unless you?d like to tell me that it?s ok for male to do prostitution or it?s only women who do prostitution.
Any kind of sexual activity out of marriage is adultery and fornication and punishment for them is in 242.
The word for prostitution is "Al-bighi? not Al-Fahishah which we can read it in below verse
Those who cannot afford to get married shall maintain morality until GOD provides for them from His grace. Those among your servants who wish to be freed in order to marry, you shall grant them their wish, once you realize that they are honest. And give them from GOD's money that He has bestowed upon you. You shall not force your girls to commit prostitution, seeking the materials of this world, if they wish to be chaste. If anyone forces them, then GOD, seeing that they are forced, is Forgiver, Merciful.
Asana
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I think fahisha is not homosexuality. Fahisha is very geneal term which may include zina, lewdness, any abhorrrent deed.
On the other hand I cannot see a punishment in 4.16, true, but I cannot see it either in 4.15. Al it says is take those women into the houses and take care of them till death or till God gives them any other means. Where is the punishment? Also is soliciting not fahisha? That is what prostitutes do when they work the street. It doesn't say to keep them locked. In current English or other languages, it would be, take them off the streets and keep them off the streets in decent housing. And I do miss the indicatin that the fahisha we are talking about is homosexual acts. I see no indication of that. And least of all group acts. On the other hand, where is the punishment for male homosexual acts? Soliciting is fahisha, but if somebody is actually caught by four witness in sexual intercourse it is zina, therefore that is something else.
Also in 4.16 I do not see that it is specifically referring to homosexuality, since it could also refer to a male and female couple and it does not prescribe either any punishment.
In fact I do not get a clear picture of what you are getting at.
Regarding bigha' I want to study it carefully, but I think it is quite a different proposition from what is pictured in 4.15 or 4.16, mainly exploitation of prostitution, which obviously is more abhorrent than plain prostitution.
Otherwise there is no provision in Qur'an for those unfortunate women who are tapped in that situation. I find it is quite consistent with the Qur'an, particularly in sura nisaa' where it is the question of those most vulnerable in society, that a provision for those women should be made.
I do not discard that if it fits it may be applied to other situations or cases, even homosexuality, but as it is and such as the world is, I find that female prostitution fits the aya more than anything else. Many prostitutes fall into it because they have children and have no means to maintain them or bring them up.
Salaam
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Regarding 24.33 I am not even sure that it is prostitution in the sense of being used by many men. It may mean merely men should not get sexually involved with girls without marriage. 3araD, as far as I can see can be simply vanities of this world as it appears in other ayas. So, in fact, I am not even convinced that by bigha' in 24.33 is actual prostitution what is meant. It may simply be that young unmarried women are used by men who do not intend to marry them, since the speech is addressedd to believers in general and all it tells them is not to use a woman for pleasure and then forget her.
Salaam
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I read this today http//seedmagazine.com/content/print/the_gay_animal_kingdom/
Interesting to note that homosexual practices are more common in the animal kingdom than we think. I don't agree with the writers conclusions, including that "gayness is a necessary side effect of getting along" (is she serious??), but it still discusses some interesting points.
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I read this today http//seedmagazine.com/content/print/the_gay_animal_kingdom/
Interesting to note that homosexual practices are more common in the animal kingdom than we think. I don't agree with the writers conclusions, including that "gayness is a necessary side effect of getting along" (is she serious??), but it still discusses some interesting points.
I think the writer has make a big error in failing to examine the differences between monogamous and promiscuous animals. About 10% of mammal species are monogamous. When it comes to promiscuous animals, then she may be right, making indiscriminately is part of their social behaviour. But when it comes to monogamous animals, be it prairie voles, swans, penguins or human beings, having sex is not a casual form of social behaviour. It is something taken very seriously, and if you only have sex with one person, then homosexuality is very bad for your fertility!
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But when it comes to monogamous animals, be it prairie voles, swans, penguins or human beings, having sex is not a casual form of social behaviour. It is something taken very seriously, and if you only have sex with one person, then homosexuality is very bad for your fertility!
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Roy and Silo, two male chinstrap penguins at New York's Central Park Zoo have been inseparable for six years now. They display classic pair-bonding behavior?entwining of necks, mutual preening, flipper flapping, and the rest. They also have sex, while ignoring potential female mates.Wild birds exhibit similar behavior. There are male ostriches that only court their own gender, and pairs of male flamingos that mate, build nests, and even raise foster chicks. ?
Homosexual Activity Among Animals Stirs Debate
http//www.ok4me2.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/penguins.jpg
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Yes - exactly. When promiscuous homosexual (bisexual) male sheep use each other for sexual pleasure as social bonding, this does not come at the expense of mating with female sheep, so it is not an evolutionary disadvantage. Because they're promiscuous, homosexual attraction does not limit their heterosexual mating opportunities. It is not a maladaptive characteristics for them.
For those penguins, on the other hand, sex means commitment. Thus when they mate with members of the same gender, this is to the exclusion of the opposite gender, they're fully homosexual. Thus it is an evolutionary dead end, a maladaptive characteristic. Each year they mate with the same gender, they produce no egg. A years opportunity to bring life into the world is lost.
Thus the article Rana linked to is only talking about the benefits of bisexuality to promiscuous animals. For monogamous animals like us, and penguins, and prairie voles, it is a dead-weight evolutionary loss.
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I think that I will have to research a bit more on what I have to say. However I have heard from someone actualy quite recently that there are things like murder that ocur among animals. So saying that because animals do it its natural and OK doesn't work when you take into account the fact that animals also do stuff that we consider crimes.
That said, a person I call brother, who also calls me brother because we are that close but is actual very distant cousin of mine is gay and married to another man.
In the end we have to work out what God wants from us wich I supose sometimes necesitates looking to nature.
I personaly don't think that they should be discriminated against.
Thanks
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Salaam Pel
I agree with Wakas if you can't help the urges then it is best to abstain from it, clearly the Quran frowns upon this practice.
Respectfully
Simone sun
