hajj / feast / debate

Wakas

peace brother Ayman,

If you feel my objection would equally apply, you are of course entitled to your own opinion.

Re booths and Sukkot.
So no sex/wickedness/debate whilst feasting in the booth, but sex/wickedness/debate when not feasting in the booth is ok? If in a booth which would be private anyway why is AQ even mentioning this no sex thing? Please clarify your position exactly.

If you provide an article detailing events during HJJ, sequence etc. please also remember to include the points we have discussed in this thread, as it will allow readers to weigh and consider the merits of your view better.

I thought that the permission to cut the hair if one has an ailment of the head was clear from the context. One can easily deduce this by looking at what was not allowed in the first part (cutting the hair)

It may be "clear" and "easily deduced" to you, but not to me. According to you, 2196 suggests that if one is sick or has an ailment of the head they would not be able to complete the command in red, BUT what is the whole point of this command? It is to do with what came before. Thus, the obvious question that comes to mind is, does an ailment of the head (e.g. baldness, injury on head, surgery on head etc) prevent one from giving what is easy of the offering and ensuring it reaches its proper place? The answer is of course, it doesn't. So, let's imagine the following scenario

A bald man or person with injury on head cannot complete the HJJ/3MR, but they are able to give what is easy of the offering and ensure it reaches its proper place. So they do this. Sounds ok so far, BUT not if the person actually continues to read the rest of 2196, because according to it, if he cant shave the head once the offering reaches its proper place he is meant to redeem by abstinence or charity or observance, so is he meant to do these things as well as giving the offering? Is AQ discriminating against bald people, those with injury on their head, sensitive scalp, head surgery, those wearing a toupe etc. and getting them to do more than a person with hair on their head? Of course not. Such notions are illogical and have no basis in AQ. The only other option is to say if he cant shave the head for whatever reason, then he skips giving what is easy of the offering and goes straight to abstinence or charity or observance, but of course, this has the same problem in that it treats such a person differently for no obvious practical reason.
You now seem to imply head shaving is optional, but that is not what AQ says. Of course, you can ignore this and still say it is optional, but if you do, then it is upon you to explain why AQ demands it in the first place and seems to differentiate people with it with no obvious practical reason.

The other alternative that I can see is

...and whoever is among you sick or with ailment of the head (and therefore cannot complete the HJJ/3MR) then redeem by abstinence or charity or observance...

However, there are still unresearched/unanswered questions about 2196 so its possible we haven't fully grasped and integrated it properly into AQ yet. If you wish to specifically analyse 2196, might be best doing it in a dedicated thread here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9022.0

kaamil

Peace brother wakas,
Thank you very much for the link you supplied, it has help change my view completely from my previous understanding of the verse. And curiously I realized that hair was not even mentioned and it is practically impossible to cut the head so the statement is not literal. It also sounds awkward for everyone to be running to the barbers all at the same period to shave their hair. Before I used to think that hair cutting is mandatory after the hajj, and that it is those who cannot shave as a result of affliction in the head that are to ransom by abstinence and the likes, but now I know, all that understanding are wrong.
This discussion has truly helped, please keep up the good feat.

And Allah did fulfill to His messenger the vision in truth verily you shall enter into the institution of obeying the Restrictions, if Allah wills SECURE, your HEADS relived {from the burden of war} and restrained (in self controlled) and without fear. For He knew what ye knew not and He granted besides this a near victory.4827

And complete the hajj and the ummrah for God. But, if you
are prevented, then make what is easy from gift, and do
not relieve your heads{of the burden of hajj} until the gift reaches its destination; but whoever of you is ill or because of it{the prevention} has a burden to his head,[relieve himself from the burden of hajj} then he may redeem by fasting or a charity or a rite. But if you are
Secure/in safety?

But as I have always posited the question of relieving your head and do not relieve your heads only relates to situation of insecurity.
I have left hajj and ummrah un-translated because I have not found an acceptable translation for it.

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

The great reading is for all times and not only for certain periods when people are more civilized. It is a well known fact that Romans, Greeks, and pagans usually had orgies during their feasts. The feasts and orgies used to be associated with each other commonly. I think that is why the god gives an extra reminder not to engage in sex during the feast starting with the inviolable nearly full moons. Please see the following table of pagan feasts and the associated orgies

http//www.heart7.net/date/srac3.html

To my knowledge I don't have any historical evidence of orgies occuring during public debates. This lends more credence to the idea that hajj is more likely to mean feast as used in the great reading.

If hajj means more than just a feast and includes benefits to mankind in its meaning then it won't make sense to invite mankind with feast + benefits because mankind in general will not be interested in the benefits of a monotheistic community. The benefits part is a desired "side effect" of the hajj. The feast part is the "bait" to attract the "fish" allegorically speaking. Once mankind flocks over for the feast then it is of very high likelihood that the people will also witness the benefits of a monotheistic community and be impressed by those benefits. That is why in my opinion hajj means feast only but this feast is not of a pagan orgy type or an Iron Chef type but regulated by certain rules/guidelines that the god lays down.

ayman

Peace brother Wakas,

If you feel my objection would equally apply, you are of course entitled to your own opinion.

Unless you can explain why inapropriate contact is more likey during a debate and this is why the extra reminder is needed then this is not an opinion.

If you provide an article detailing events during HJJ, sequence etc. please also remember to include the points we have discussed in this thread, as it will allow readers to weigh and consider the merits of your view better.
It may be "clear" and "easily deduced" to you, but not to me. According to you, 2196 suggests that if one is sick or has an ailment of the head hey would not be able to complete the command in red, BUT what is the whole point of this command? It is to do with what came before. Thus, the obvious question that comes to mind is, does an ailment of the head (e.g. baldness, injury on head, surgery on head etc) prevent one from giving what is easy of the offering and ensuring it reaches its proper place? The answer is of course, it doesn't. So, let's imagine the following scenario
A bald man or person with injury on head cannot complete the HJJ/3MR, but they are able to give what is easy of the offering and ensure it reaches its proper place. So they do this. Sounds ok so far, BUT not if the person actually continues to read the rest of 2196, because according to it, if he cant shave the head once the offering reaches its proper place he is meant to redeem by abstinence or charity or observance, so is he meant to do these things as well as giving the offering? Is AQ discriminating against bald people, those with injury on their head, sensitive scalp, head surgery, those wearing a toupe etc. and getting them to do more than a person with hair on their head? Of course not. Such notions are illogical and have no basis in AQ. The only other option is to say if he cant shave the head for whatever reason, then he skips giving what is easy of the offering and goes straight to abstinence or charity or observance, but of course, this has the same problem in that it treats such a person differently for no obvious practical reason.
You now seem to imply head shaving is optional, but that is not what AQ says. Of course, you can ignore this and still say it is optional, but if you do, then it is upon you to explain why AQ demands it in the first place and seems to differentiate people with it with no obvious practical reason.
The other alternative that I can see is
...and whoever is among you sick or with ailment of the head (and therefore cannot complete the HJJ/3MR) then redeem by abstinence or charity or observance...
However, there are still unresearched/unanswered questions about 2196 so its possible we haven't fully grasped and integrated it properly into AQ yet. If you wish to specifically analyse 2196, might be best doing it in a dedicated thread here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9022.0

I am inclined to agree with the general meaning that you are proposing of "relieving one's head from a duty". However, I need to ponder on it further after establishing the sequence of events. I still think at this stage that it can go either way and only a more complete understanding of the sequence of events will help. I also don't think that that this particular meaning favors a "debate" over a "feast", especially in light of the duty again being related to offerings/gifts (food).

Now another point that strongly favors the understanding of "feast" is the fact that the "hajj" timing is according to known full-moons/"ash-hur ma3loomat". While there is no known timing (months, full-moons or whatever) for any kind of debate, the time for the annual feast is indeed well known (people from different cultures literally observe the full-moons of the harvest).

Peace,

Ayman

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace All

I have recently started looking at the concept of hajj in preparation for our quranic discussion group. I am in the process of studying it & have looked at 2158. This is how I have interpreted it. As I said, my study of this subject is a work in progress, so your comments will be welcome.

I have found to mean "the clarification" based on its primary root verb meaning of "he clarified/brought clarity, etc."
When looking at , I found it difficult to pinpoint a root verb for what most consider to be the root, i.e "miim-raa-waw". I then considered the possibility of the root being "miim-raa-alif". This pointed to a root verb indcating a process by which one extracts that which is wholesome/good, etc.
seems to indicate intimate knowledge from its root verb.
When I looked at , I found that the it incorporated the idea of a debate/argument in the sense of overcoming someone through the use of evidence, which seems to be a common understanding on this forum. I also noticed that "to aim at something or having a goal in mind", also it has a meaning of "curing or repairing" something. This last meaning may be mostly in relation to the curing of a head wound, which could be extended to " curing the wrong thinking about something (or maybe this extension is stretching it too far?). Either way, I have come to a meaning of "aiming at the curing of wrong thinking through the use of evidence" or "correcting an erroneous concept through the presentation of strong evidence/arguments".
I was surprised to see that the word is derived from a root that carries a meaning of spending the night awake considering any number of things (good or bad).
The word , being form 8 of the verb would indicate the act that results if the form 1 verb was initiated. Therefore I think that in this case it would indicate that the living/acting out of the conclusions reached through the deliberation of , which at its culmination will provide the most convincing evidence that of the decisions taken since the benefits will be plain for all to see.
indicates acknowledgment of efforts by providing abundantly.

Using these conclusions, this is how I would interpret the verse

Truly the clarification and extraction of what is good from the intimate knowledge possessed by God is for those who aim at correcting/curing/repairing erroneous concepts through the presentation of strong evidence/arguments, staying awake at night to ponder these concepts or living the conclusions reached through such deliberation and in so doing provide the ultimate proof of these concepts through their concrete results. There is no blame on him if he moves about and attaches himself to them (clarification and extraction). And they who effect the obedience of what is good, then truly God is acknowledging of the efforts of such people by providing abundant nourishment as proof of their success, Knowledgable.

Imraan

kgwithnob

Peace All

I have recently started looking at the concept of hajj in preparation for our quranic discussion group. I am in the process of studying it & have looked at 2158. This is how I have interpreted it. As I said, my study of this subject is a work in progress, so your comments will be welcome.

... this is how I would interpret the verse

Truly the clarification and extraction of what is good from the intimate knowledge possessed by God is for those who aim at correcting/curing/repairing erroneous concepts through the presentation of strong evidence/arguments, staying awake at night to ponder these concepts or living the conclusions reached through such deliberation and in so doing provide the ultimate proof of these concepts through their concrete results. There is no blame on him if he moves about and attaches himself to them (clarification and extraction). And they who effect the obedience of what is good, then truly God is acknowledging of the efforts of such people by providing abundant nourishment as proof of their success, Knowledgable.

Imraan

The highlights and UNDERLIED above are from me.

Salaam Dear Imraan,

Reading your interpretation of the verse. I completely got comfused. Could not make any sense out of it, and got lost completely.

I wonder if GOD wants to guide his servants or meant to confuse them?

Peace,
Khalil

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace Khalil

I realise that it may seem confusing. That is why I have not posted on this subject for quite a while. My research is ongoing, and I hope to document it soon.

Reading your interpretation of the verse. I completely got comfused. Could not make any sense out of it, and got lost completely.

I wonder if GOD wants to guide his servants or meant to confuse them?

I don't think that we should view it as GOD confusing us when we are presented with a differentv viewpoint. If we don't understand it, it is either that we are not open to that particular interpretation or it needs more clarification. I hope to provide the latter soon. The subject matter is vast both in its study and its implications, so keep an eye open for my post and keep an open mind based on reason when I post it.

Imraan

ayman

Peace all,

In addition to the fact that the majority of the passages in the great reading that talk about "hagg" refer to food and that eating and feeding the poor is its main purpose and that the people of the book clearly understood "hagg" as "feast, here is an ancient inscription from the 8th century BCE clearly showing the meaning of "hagg" as "feast"

http//ntwrong.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/neo-hittite-funerary-rite/

I think that, objectively speaking, the debate is over.

Peace,

Ayman

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace Ayman

While I see much of what you are saying in the Quran and agree with much of it, I find the insistence that hajj being a feast rather than a feast being part of the hajj to be an inadequate understanding. The link you posted seems to say that a hajj was established in the chamber. It then seems to say that there was food involved. I am not an familiar with the details regarding this, so I can't say for sure. However, I think that even in this inscription it may be possible to consider the feeding as part of a broader concept.

At any rate, my investigation into the hajj concept is getting closer to conclusion and I thank you for the thought provoking issues that you have raised in relation to this subject. I hope to post my findings soon.

Imraan

raginggaijin

This is from the Jewish Encyclopedia under 'Festivals'.

http//www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp

The Hebrews designated a festival by the word "ag" (the Arabic "ajj&quot, originally implying a choragic rhythmic procession around the shrine of an idol or an altar (see Wellhausen, "Skizzen und Vorarbeiten," 3106); but later, without specific reference to this usage, connoting a day or season of joy ("ag" and "simah" are correlatives; comp. Amos 710; Deut.1614). As fixed festivals occurred at appointed times, they came to be known as "mo'adim" or "mo'ade Yhwh"; and these became the technical terms for the prescribed holidays, with one exception (Lev. 232) always connoting festivals to the exclusion of the Sabbath and New Moon (Ex. 1310, 2315, 3418; Num. 92- 7; Num. 282; Deut. 166; Isa. 114, Isa. 3320), while "ag" denotes more specifically the three agricultural festivals (Ex. 2314), or the Festival of Unleavened Bread and Tabernacles (Lev. 236, Lev. 2334), or the latter only (Judges 2119; Ezek. Xlv25; II Chron. 53; see Bertheau on II Chron. 78-9).
?You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread. As I commanded you, you shall eat unleavened bread for seven days at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in it you came out of Egypt. None shall appear before me empty-handed.? Exo. 2315
??e-a hammaw ti?mr ?i?a ym?m t?al maw ka??er i??i lmw? e? h?? k?-w y? mimmiryim wl?-yr?? fnay r?qm? Exo 2315
?You shall keep the Feast of Harvest, of the firstfruits of your labor, of what you sow in the field. You shall keep the Feast of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you gather in from the field the fruit of your labor.? Exo. 2316
?wa haqq?r bik?r? ma?ey ??er tizra? baeh wa h?sif b? ha??n? b?sp ?e-ma?ey min-haeh? Exo. 2316
?You shall observe the Feast of Weeks, the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the year?s end.? Exo. 3422
?wa ?u? ta?eh l bik?r? q?r i?m wa h?s?f tq?fa ha??n?? Exo. 3422
Agricultural Festivals.
The harvest is the natural provocation for the farmer to rejoice and to manifest his gratitude to the Godhead. The oldest traditions (Judges 2119; I Sam. 13) mention a yearly festival of thanksgiving ("hillulim" Judges 927) after the vintage; and it is this festival which even later is called the festival (I Kings 82, 865; 1232, 1233; comp. Ezek. xlv. 25; Neh. 814). It was celebrated first by dancing in the vineyards (Judges xxi. 21); later, by processions to festal halls ("leshakot"; I Sam. 922), with music (Isa. 3029)?at Shiloh, for example (I Sam. 13), at Beth -el (I Kings 1232), and at Jerusalem (I Kings 638, 82; Isa. 291). As these festivals increased, the necessity arose of regulating them and of fixing them for certain seasons of the year; hence, in Isa. 291 allusion is made to a regular cycle of the "aggim" circuiting the year.

Hajj/Hag Ha-Sukkot Exo. 109, Exo. 51, Exo. 318, Exo. 134, Exo. 2314-17, Exo 3422-24, Deut 1613-16, Neh. 89-12, Neh. 21, Lev. 239-21, Est. 89
Surah 2059
Baca (Hebrew 'emeq habakka&#039 Psalm 841-12, Surah 396

The Jewish Encyclopedia was very informative on circambulation

Extension of Sukkot.

The seventh day of the festival is distinguished as the "great Hosha'na" (the Gospel accounts of Jesus' entry on Palm Sunday seem to have confused this with Pesa&#7717, or "the day of the palm-and willow-branches" (Suk. 42-45). Carrying in their hands branches at least eleven feet long, the celebrants make seven circuits around the desk, chanting "Hosha'na" (Ps. cxviii. 25), and then beat the floor with the branches. This custom, said to be of Mosaic origin, is undoubtedly an adaptation of a Babylonian rite (Yer. 'Ab. Zarah iv.).

Read more http//www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=125&letter=F&search=festivals#ixzz14zyFgyVJ

The Quran details exactly what we are to do for Hajj, and what to do if you cannot make the trip. None of the pagan rituals are in the Quran, and that includes stoning an idol or circambulation.

Allah also gives warning
"And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say Surely Allah?s guidance, that is the guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper." Surah 2120

Be careful of the Yahudians posing as Muslims to lead you astray.

That includes all those who say the Dome of the Rock is our qiblah.

Peace.

herbman

Peace all,

In addition to the fact that the majority of the passages in the great reading that talk about "hagg" refer to food and that eating and feeding the poor is its main purpose and that the people of the book clearly understood "hagg" as "feast, here is an ancient inscription from the 8th century BCE clearly showing the meaning of "hagg" as "feast"

http//ntwrong.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/neo-hittite-funerary-rite/

I think that, objectively speaking, the debate is over.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman, all,

regarding what I underlined, why do you use the term "hagg" in hebrew for hajj in arabic?

Again why do you translate an arabic word with a hebrew definition?

Would you follow "jewish" understanding for all matters or just for hajj, and what if jews misunderstood "hagg" would you still follow their understanding, so how can you be sure they are right with "hagg"?

my last question to you
how do you "witness benefits for mankind" by doing a feast? I would personnaly make a kind of "demonstration" of "God's system" so people can witness the benefits of it.

Peace

ayman

Peace Imraan,

While I see much of what you are saying in the Quran and agree with much of it, I find the insistence that hajj being a feast rather than a feast being part of the hajj to be an inadequate understanding. The link you posted seems to say that a hajj was established in the chamber. It then seems to say that there was food involved. I am not an familiar with the details regarding this, so I can't say for sure. However, I think that even in this inscription it may be possible to consider the feeding as part of a broader concept.
At any rate, my investigation into the hajj concept is getting closer to conclusion and I thank you for the thought provoking issues that you have raised in relation to this subject. I hope to post my findings soon.

The word "hajj/hagg" itself means "feast". Now a feast that takes place in a community where no partners are set with the god would certainly involve many broader concepts such as thanking the god for the food he provided and feeding the poor and fullfilling our vows and getting to know other people and serve as a role model for them and trading and prospering and witnessing benefits, etc.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Herbman,

regarding what I underlined, why do you use the term "hagg" in hebrew for hajj in arabic?

In Arabic there is no difference between "g" and "j". The word "hagg" in Arabic is exactly the same as "hajj". It is just different pronunciation depending on dialect.

Again why do you translate an arabic word with a hebrew definition?

First and foremost the Hebrew meaning of "feast" clearly fits the context of hagg/hajj in the great reading where 80% of the passages talk about food.
The concept of "hajj/hagg" existed since the time of Abraham and must have been well known to the people of the book and all people for this matter. Certainly it was known to Moses who was most likely hired as a laborer for 8 harvest feasts and not 8 "debates".
Arabic is like any human language. It didn't descend from the sky and it is relatively young compared to other Semitic languages. So it borrows heavily from other older and contemporary languages. There are many Arabic words in the great reading borrowed from foreign languages, even ones that are not Semitic like Persian, Greek and Latin. Of course Arabic borrows more heavily from Semitic languages such as Hebrew, Syriac, Sabaic, and Ethiopic. For example

minsaah/staff (3414) from Hebrew
yatasannah/changed (2259) from the Hebrew root sh-n-y/?to change?
salaam/peace (extensively used) from Hebrew
katab/write (extensively used) from Hebrew
dars/study (379, etc.) from Hebrew
sabbah/praise (extensively used) from Syriac

One has to be careful because it is often that languages share common words that may have opposite meanings when transported between languages. A famous example is ?wathab?, which means ?jump? in Arabic and ?sit? in Hebrew.

For the purpose of this discussion, I will classify foreign borrowed words into three categories

Words that failed to be Arabized and so failed to become productive roots. Examples include istabraq/silk brocade, zanjabil/ginger, firdaws/paradise, etc.
Words that had no Arabic roots but became fully Arabized and produced productive roots. Examples include jund/soldiers, hizb/faction, etc.
Words for which there were Arabic roots but not in the foreign meaning. These easily assimilated into Arabic and became productive but we got very divergent and unrelated meanings. For example, the Arabic root ?sabah? means ?to swim? (793, 2133, 3640) but ?sabbah? (borrowed from Syriac) means ?to praise?.

I believe that ?hagg/hajj? falls under the third classification where there was already an Arabic root and therefore it was easily assimilated from Hebrew. However, like the ?sabah? example above, the Arabic root was in the meaning of ?argument? while the assimilated Hebrew word had the meaning of ?feast?. This is why we got those divergent and unrelated meanings.

Would you follow "jewish" understanding for all matters or just for hajj, and what if jews misunderstood "hagg" would you still follow their understanding, so how can you be sure they are right with "hagg"?

You are referring to following theology while I am only concerned with linguistics. It is irrelevant what misunderstood religious practices Jews do during their feast and this doesn?t change the linguistic meaning. All people had harvest feasts regardless of their religious affiliations or specific practices.

my last question to you
how do you "witness benefits for mankind" by doing a feast? I would personnaly make a kind of "demonstration" of "God's system" so people can witness the benefits of it.

I agree with you. It is natural that a community that doesn?t set partners with the god would be an excellent demonstration.

Peace,

Ayman

Joe_Betik

salam all,

at this moment i strongly believe that the meaning of 'alhajj' is explained in 2197, i.e. "Alhajju ashhurun maAAloomatun".

generally "maAAloomat" is translated as "well-known". more examples here (http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=2&verse=197

but is that translation correct?

here is the entry by Hans Wehr

AA-l-m (maAAloom) known; fixed, determined, given; of course! certainly! sure! no doubt! (as an affirmative reply); known quantity (math.); (almaAAloom) the active voice (gram.); - pl. (maAAaleem) fixed sum, fixed rate (money); fixed income; tax, duty, fee; sum, amount, cost(s) | (maAAloom alhayawanat) impost on livestock (Tun.); - pl. (maAAloomat) knowledge, lore, learning, perceptions, discoveries, findings; known facts; information, data; news, tidings

but there is the problem of "ashhurun" which is usually understood as a plural for "shahr".

interestingly both "ashhurun" and "maAAloomatun" are plurals. as such the impending question is, what would be the months for "alhajj"?

the current practice of "alhajj" is during the (only) month of "thoo alhijjah" (between the 8th to the 12th). more info on this here (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajj).

if we were to adhere to God's command, when we took "alhajj" to mean "the pilgrimage", then we should investigate the other month(s) in question. otherwise we would qualify as deniers (mukaththibeen).

if really "alhajj" were to mean "the pilgrimage", or even "feast" could the following phrase in the verse be of utmost importance? lets read 2197 further.

faman farada feehinna alhajja fala rafatha wala fusooqa wala jidala fee alhajji

didn't that phrase gave important guidelines for performing "alhajj"?

while i don't argue against other people's idea of "alhajj" as "the pilgrimage" or "the feast", personally i must first secure some valid proofs and pointers before forming my own personal comprehensions regarding "alhajj".

verses in "albaqarah" and others seem to suggest to me that "alhajj" is most likely to mean "the persuasion". the first part of 2197 is "the persuasion (alhajj) is the propagations (ashoorun) of information/perceptions/discoveries (maAAloomatun)".

try this idea, if you wish, for other verses of the qur-an where "alhajj" occurs and you may perhaps find the most likely meaning of "alhajj". don't let our prejudice fool us in our search for the truth. nor let the dictionaries or other language tools to restrain our efforts too. you may in the end discover that "alhajj" may not mean "the persuasion" after all, but we need to search without the prejudice. let God guide us to acquire the truth. insha-Allah.

peace
mohammed noh

ayman

Would you follow "jewish" understanding for all matters or just for hajj, and what if jews misunderstood "hagg" would you still follow their understanding, so how can you be sure they are right with "hagg"?

A fourth point that I forgot to add is the following

If you look closely at the inscription in http//ntwrong.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/neo-hittite-funerary-rite/ it was actually inscribed by pagans not Jews and yet it uses the word "hagg" in the same sense of "feast". So this was not a religious term that belonged to a specific religious group such as the Jews. The meaing of "hagg/hajj" as feast was clearly part of the ordinary language of people regardless of religious affiliation.

Peace,

Ayman

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace ayman,

Early on in this thread you made reference to nafaqa and how the root brings about contradictory meanings. Can you please post the link where you discuss this? I hope that I haven't misrepresented your post as I couldn't find it.

Imraan

Wilson

Peace,

Peace ayman,

Early on in this thread you made reference to nafaqa and how the root brings about contradictory meanings. Can you please post the link where you discuss this? I hope that I haven't misrepresented your post as I couldn't find it.

Imraan

Discussed here, and here. And the reference you were looking for is somewhere in the last part of THIS post.

Abdelilah

san

It won't be as contradictory as you think, if you can see the pattern "to come out of a hole; to enter into another hole where there is another outlet" (taken from PRL online, root nun-fa-qaf)

a hypocrite enters an "inlet" (e.g. of faith) only to come out from another "outlet" (along the line of that faith).

a sum of wealth enters one of your pockets/wallets/accounts/ways to be spent out from one of your other pockets/wallets/accounts/ways

(think of "tunnel/channel" in English)

my bad, irrelevant example now removed

herbman

Peace Ayman, all,

First, thanks for your time and answer.

You then translate hajj = feast. This is the noon Al hajj = The feast

How would you translate the verbe. As in "faman hajja al baita".

I guess you will use a completly different word, but the question is why would you use different meanings for a word with the same root. I know sometimes it occurs but still 99% of the words share the same root to describe an action (verb) and the object derived from the action (noon), e.g root Ka-ta-ba
action kataba= to write
object al kitab = the book
(I know you know this, this is for the audience)
Peace

ayman

Peace San,

It won't be as contradictory as you think, if you can see the pattern "to come out of a hole; to enter into another hole where there is another outlet" (taken from PRL online, root nun-fa-qaf)
a hypocrite enters an "inlet" (e.g. of faith) only to come out from another "outlet" (along the line of that faith).
a sum of wealth enters one of your pockets/wallets/accounts/ways to be spent out from one of your other pockets/wallets/accounts/ways
(think of "tunnel/channel" in English)
my bad, irrelevant example now removed

I think that lexigraphers can come with some fairly far fetched explanations for divergent meanings. However, these same forms for NFQ and MuNAFQ ("F3L" and "MuFA3L&quot don't have such divergent meanings with other roots. For example, "DF3" (push) and "MuDAF3" (pusher/defender). I would say that it is just the nature of any human language to have oddities. Also, a proto-Semitic language may have indeed had the meaning the same but then it diverged through different languages and then one language later re-imported the foreign meaning. So we end up with two divergent meanings for the same root.

There are other examples of divergent meanings within the root. I already mentioned HJJ and SB7 where the imported foreign meaning has a different sense than the Arabic root. Another example is BRK. It can mean "fall on its chest" or bless/multiply (the imported meaning).

Peace,

Ayman