hajj / feast / debate

herbman

Peace all,

In addition to the fact that the majority of the passages in the great reading that talk about "hagg" refer to food and that eating and feeding the poor is its main purpose and that the people of the book clearly understood "hagg" as "feast, here is an ancient inscription from the 8th century BCE clearly showing the meaning of "hagg" as "feast"

http//ntwrong.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/neo-hittite-funerary-rite/

I think that, objectively speaking, the debate is over.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman, all,

regarding what I underlined, why do you use the term "hagg" in hebrew for hajj in arabic?

Again why do you translate an arabic word with a hebrew definition?

Would you follow "jewish" understanding for all matters or just for hajj, and what if jews misunderstood "hagg" would you still follow their understanding, so how can you be sure they are right with "hagg"?

my last question to you
how do you "witness benefits for mankind" by doing a feast? I would personnaly make a kind of "demonstration" of "God's system" so people can witness the benefits of it.

Peace

ayman

Peace Imraan,

While I see much of what you are saying in the Quran and agree with much of it, I find the insistence that hajj being a feast rather than a feast being part of the hajj to be an inadequate understanding. The link you posted seems to say that a hajj was established in the chamber. It then seems to say that there was food involved. I am not an familiar with the details regarding this, so I can't say for sure. However, I think that even in this inscription it may be possible to consider the feeding as part of a broader concept.
At any rate, my investigation into the hajj concept is getting closer to conclusion and I thank you for the thought provoking issues that you have raised in relation to this subject. I hope to post my findings soon.

The word "hajj/hagg" itself means "feast". Now a feast that takes place in a community where no partners are set with the god would certainly involve many broader concepts such as thanking the god for the food he provided and feeding the poor and fullfilling our vows and getting to know other people and serve as a role model for them and trading and prospering and witnessing benefits, etc.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Herbman,

regarding what I underlined, why do you use the term "hagg" in hebrew for hajj in arabic?

In Arabic there is no difference between "g" and "j". The word "hagg" in Arabic is exactly the same as "hajj". It is just different pronunciation depending on dialect.

Again why do you translate an arabic word with a hebrew definition?

First and foremost the Hebrew meaning of "feast" clearly fits the context of hagg/hajj in the great reading where 80% of the passages talk about food.
The concept of "hajj/hagg" existed since the time of Abraham and must have been well known to the people of the book and all people for this matter. Certainly it was known to Moses who was most likely hired as a laborer for 8 harvest feasts and not 8 "debates".
Arabic is like any human language. It didn't descend from the sky and it is relatively young compared to other Semitic languages. So it borrows heavily from other older and contemporary languages. There are many Arabic words in the great reading borrowed from foreign languages, even ones that are not Semitic like Persian, Greek and Latin. Of course Arabic borrows more heavily from Semitic languages such as Hebrew, Syriac, Sabaic, and Ethiopic. For example

minsaah/staff (3414) from Hebrew
yatasannah/changed (2259) from the Hebrew root sh-n-y/?to change?
salaam/peace (extensively used) from Hebrew
katab/write (extensively used) from Hebrew
dars/study (379, etc.) from Hebrew
sabbah/praise (extensively used) from Syriac

One has to be careful because it is often that languages share common words that may have opposite meanings when transported between languages. A famous example is ?wathab?, which means ?jump? in Arabic and ?sit? in Hebrew.

For the purpose of this discussion, I will classify foreign borrowed words into three categories

Words that failed to be Arabized and so failed to become productive roots. Examples include istabraq/silk brocade, zanjabil/ginger, firdaws/paradise, etc.
Words that had no Arabic roots but became fully Arabized and produced productive roots. Examples include jund/soldiers, hizb/faction, etc.
Words for which there were Arabic roots but not in the foreign meaning. These easily assimilated into Arabic and became productive but we got very divergent and unrelated meanings. For example, the Arabic root ?sabah? means ?to swim? (793, 2133, 3640) but ?sabbah? (borrowed from Syriac) means ?to praise?.

I believe that ?hagg/hajj? falls under the third classification where there was already an Arabic root and therefore it was easily assimilated from Hebrew. However, like the ?sabah? example above, the Arabic root was in the meaning of ?argument? while the assimilated Hebrew word had the meaning of ?feast?. This is why we got those divergent and unrelated meanings.

Would you follow "jewish" understanding for all matters or just for hajj, and what if jews misunderstood "hagg" would you still follow their understanding, so how can you be sure they are right with "hagg"?

You are referring to following theology while I am only concerned with linguistics. It is irrelevant what misunderstood religious practices Jews do during their feast and this doesn?t change the linguistic meaning. All people had harvest feasts regardless of their religious affiliations or specific practices.

my last question to you
how do you "witness benefits for mankind" by doing a feast? I would personnaly make a kind of "demonstration" of "God's system" so people can witness the benefits of it.

I agree with you. It is natural that a community that doesn?t set partners with the god would be an excellent demonstration.

Peace,

Ayman

Joe_Betik

salam all,

at this moment i strongly believe that the meaning of 'alhajj' is explained in 2197, i.e. "Alhajju ashhurun maAAloomatun".

generally "maAAloomat" is translated as "well-known". more examples here (http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=2&verse=197

but is that translation correct?

here is the entry by Hans Wehr

AA-l-m (maAAloom) known; fixed, determined, given; of course! certainly! sure! no doubt! (as an affirmative reply); known quantity (math.); (almaAAloom) the active voice (gram.); - pl. (maAAaleem) fixed sum, fixed rate (money); fixed income; tax, duty, fee; sum, amount, cost(s) | (maAAloom alhayawanat) impost on livestock (Tun.); - pl. (maAAloomat) knowledge, lore, learning, perceptions, discoveries, findings; known facts; information, data; news, tidings

but there is the problem of "ashhurun" which is usually understood as a plural for "shahr".

interestingly both "ashhurun" and "maAAloomatun" are plurals. as such the impending question is, what would be the months for "alhajj"?

the current practice of "alhajj" is during the (only) month of "thoo alhijjah" (between the 8th to the 12th). more info on this here (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajj).

if we were to adhere to God's command, when we took "alhajj" to mean "the pilgrimage", then we should investigate the other month(s) in question. otherwise we would qualify as deniers (mukaththibeen).

if really "alhajj" were to mean "the pilgrimage", or even "feast" could the following phrase in the verse be of utmost importance? lets read 2197 further.

faman farada feehinna alhajja fala rafatha wala fusooqa wala jidala fee alhajji

didn't that phrase gave important guidelines for performing "alhajj"?

while i don't argue against other people's idea of "alhajj" as "the pilgrimage" or "the feast", personally i must first secure some valid proofs and pointers before forming my own personal comprehensions regarding "alhajj".

verses in "albaqarah" and others seem to suggest to me that "alhajj" is most likely to mean "the persuasion". the first part of 2197 is "the persuasion (alhajj) is the propagations (ashoorun) of information/perceptions/discoveries (maAAloomatun)".

try this idea, if you wish, for other verses of the qur-an where "alhajj" occurs and you may perhaps find the most likely meaning of "alhajj". don't let our prejudice fool us in our search for the truth. nor let the dictionaries or other language tools to restrain our efforts too. you may in the end discover that "alhajj" may not mean "the persuasion" after all, but we need to search without the prejudice. let God guide us to acquire the truth. insha-Allah.

peace
mohammed noh

ayman

Would you follow "jewish" understanding for all matters or just for hajj, and what if jews misunderstood "hagg" would you still follow their understanding, so how can you be sure they are right with "hagg"?

A fourth point that I forgot to add is the following

If you look closely at the inscription in http//ntwrong.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/neo-hittite-funerary-rite/ it was actually inscribed by pagans not Jews and yet it uses the word "hagg" in the same sense of "feast". So this was not a religious term that belonged to a specific religious group such as the Jews. The meaing of "hagg/hajj" as feast was clearly part of the ordinary language of people regardless of religious affiliation.

Peace,

Ayman

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace ayman,

Early on in this thread you made reference to nafaqa and how the root brings about contradictory meanings. Can you please post the link where you discuss this? I hope that I haven't misrepresented your post as I couldn't find it.

Imraan

Wilson

Peace,

Peace ayman,

Early on in this thread you made reference to nafaqa and how the root brings about contradictory meanings. Can you please post the link where you discuss this? I hope that I haven't misrepresented your post as I couldn't find it.

Imraan

Discussed here, and here. And the reference you were looking for is somewhere in the last part of THIS post.

Abdelilah

san

It won't be as contradictory as you think, if you can see the pattern "to come out of a hole; to enter into another hole where there is another outlet" (taken from PRL online, root nun-fa-qaf)

a hypocrite enters an "inlet" (e.g. of faith) only to come out from another "outlet" (along the line of that faith).

a sum of wealth enters one of your pockets/wallets/accounts/ways to be spent out from one of your other pockets/wallets/accounts/ways

(think of "tunnel/channel" in English)

my bad, irrelevant example now removed

herbman

Peace Ayman, all,

First, thanks for your time and answer.

You then translate hajj = feast. This is the noon Al hajj = The feast

How would you translate the verbe. As in "faman hajja al baita".

I guess you will use a completly different word, but the question is why would you use different meanings for a word with the same root. I know sometimes it occurs but still 99% of the words share the same root to describe an action (verb) and the object derived from the action (noon), e.g root Ka-ta-ba
action kataba= to write
object al kitab = the book
(I know you know this, this is for the audience)
Peace

ayman

Peace San,

It won't be as contradictory as you think, if you can see the pattern "to come out of a hole; to enter into another hole where there is another outlet" (taken from PRL online, root nun-fa-qaf)
a hypocrite enters an "inlet" (e.g. of faith) only to come out from another "outlet" (along the line of that faith).
a sum of wealth enters one of your pockets/wallets/accounts/ways to be spent out from one of your other pockets/wallets/accounts/ways
(think of "tunnel/channel" in English)
my bad, irrelevant example now removed

I think that lexigraphers can come with some fairly far fetched explanations for divergent meanings. However, these same forms for NFQ and MuNAFQ ("F3L" and "MuFA3L&quot don't have such divergent meanings with other roots. For example, "DF3" (push) and "MuDAF3" (pusher/defender). I would say that it is just the nature of any human language to have oddities. Also, a proto-Semitic language may have indeed had the meaning the same but then it diverged through different languages and then one language later re-imported the foreign meaning. So we end up with two divergent meanings for the same root.

There are other examples of divergent meanings within the root. I already mentioned HJJ and SB7 where the imported foreign meaning has a different sense than the Arabic root. Another example is BRK. It can mean "fall on its chest" or bless/multiply (the imported meaning).

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Herbman,

First, thanks for your time and answer.
You then translate hajj = feast. This is the noon Al hajj = The feast
How would you translate the verbe. As in "faman hajja al baita".
I guess you will use a completly different word, but the question is why would you use different meanings for a word with the same root. I know sometimes it occurs but still 99% of the words share the same root to describe an action (verb) and the object derived from the action (noon), e.g root Ka-ta-ba
action kataba= to write
object al kitab = the book
(I know you know this, this is for the audience)

No need to use a different meaning since it is the same context of feeding. The expression "feasted the house" may sound strange in English. However, think of it in the same way as "blessed the house", in other words, brought his blessing to the house. Similarly, in my opinion "feasted the house" would be "brought his feast to the house", or brought food to the house.

Peace,

Ayman

san

Peace Ayman,

Peace San,

I think that lexigraphers can come with some fairly far fetched explanations for divergent meanings. However, these same forms for NFQ and MuNAFQ ("F3L" and "MuFA3L&quot don't have such divergent meanings with other roots. For example, "DF3" (push) and "MuDAF3" (pusher/defender). I would say that it is just the nature of any human language to have oddities. Also, a proto-Semitic language may have indeed had the meaning the same but then it diverged through different languages and then one language later re-imported the foreign meaning. So we end up with two divergent meanings for the same root.

If i saw it to be far-fetched, then personally i would exercise the option of removing the specific term "hypocrite" from the equation.

Wakas

peace Bro Ayman, all,

I only read up on "hagg sukot" (Feast of Tabernacles) today and it seems its core aspects are very similar to HJJ of AQ
http//www.wildolive.co.uk/sukot.htm

The word "tabernacles" come from tents, which implies travel and likely to certain location for a festival/feast/gathering. The timing seems similar. They also remember God, utilise/celebrate the Torah, spread the message, and it is open for all nations apparently. It also talks about representatives.

Previously, I did not realise it had these other aspects.

ayman

Peace brother Wakas,

I only read up on "hagg sukot" (Feast of Tabernacles) today and it seems its core aspects are very similar to HJJ of AQ
http//www.wildolive.co.uk/sukot.htm
The word "tabernacles" come from tents, which implies travel and likely to certain location for a festival/feast/gathering. The timing seems similar. They also remember God, utilise/celebrate the Torah, spread the message, and it is open for all nations apparently. It also talks about representatives.
Previously, I did not realise it had these other aspects.

It is good to hear from you on this subject.

Yes the timing of Hagg Sukot coincides with the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice (the last of the four inviolable full-moons). If you look at the essence of Hagg Sukot beyond the manmade rituals, it is essentially a harvest feast to eat and feed others and thank the god for the harvest. As you noted, probably the tents are remenants pointing to both the travel aspect and the need to accomodate the masses coming to the inviolable house.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

mmkhan

Salaam all,

First and foremost the Hebrew meaning of "feast" clearly fits the context of hagg/hajj in the great reading where 80% of the passages talk about food.

80%

I don't think I can agree with you on this.

Can you please quote all the aayaats and show how 80% of the Hajj related aayaats talks about food?

Thanks in advance.

May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan

ayman

Peace mmkhan,

Salaam all,
80% o
I don't think I can agree with you on this.
Can you please quote all the aayaats and show how 80% of the Hajj related aayaats talks about food?
Thanks in advance.
May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan

It is probably easier for you to list the signs relating to "hagg"/feast that don't talk about food, since it would be a much shorter list.

Peace,

Ayman

Mazhar

My translation

Truly, the animals of milking and the stone of slaughtering/cooking are from the markers/ordinances/regulations of God, so whoever undertook debate (at) the House/Establishment or visited, there is no error on him that he should go about/amongst them. And whoever does good voluntarily, then The God is Appreciative/Recognising, Aware/Knowledgeable.

Who are these "them"? Are animals of milking?

Wakas

No, it is both ssafa and marwa.

Mazhar

No, it is both ssafa and marwa.

But ssafa and marwa is not there in the translation; they have become this

My translation

Truly, the animals of milking and the stone of slaughtering/cooking are from the markers/ordinances/regulations of God, so whoever undertook debate (at) the House/Establishment or visited, there is no error on him that he should go about/amongst them. And whoever does good voluntarily, then The God is Appreciative/Recognising, Aware/Knowledgeable.

And what does "stone of slaughtering" mean? Whether a sharp stone used for slaughtering a mammal or a platform of stone where an animal is laid for slaugtering?

Wakas

Yes, and whatever you translate ssafa and marwa as, the "them" refers to them.

This is in Classical Arabic Dictionaries for "marwa" white fragile stone where a cooking fire is started, the stone on which an animal is slaughtered.