hajj / feast / debate
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salam all,
at this moment i strongly believe that the meaning of 'alhajj' is explained in 2197, i.e. "Alhajju ashhurun maAAloomatun".
generally "maAAloomat" is translated as "well-known". more examples here (http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=2&verse=197
but is that translation correct?
here is the entry by Hans Wehr
AA-l-m (maAAloom) known; fixed, determined, given; of course! certainly! sure! no doubt! (as an affirmative reply); known quantity (math.); (almaAAloom) the active voice (gram.); - pl. (maAAaleem) fixed sum, fixed rate (money); fixed income; tax, duty, fee; sum, amount, cost(s) | (maAAloom alhayawanat) impost on livestock (Tun.); - pl. (maAAloomat) knowledge, lore, learning, perceptions, discoveries, findings; known facts; information, data; news, tidings
but there is the problem of "ashhurun" which is usually understood as a plural for "shahr".
interestingly both "ashhurun" and "maAAloomatun" are plurals. as such the impending question is, what would be the months for "alhajj"?
the current practice of "alhajj" is during the (only) month of "thoo alhijjah" (between the 8th to the 12th). more info on this here (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajj).
if we were to adhere to God's command, when we took "alhajj" to mean "the pilgrimage", then we should investigate the other month(s) in question. otherwise we would qualify as deniers (mukaththibeen).
if really "alhajj" were to mean "the pilgrimage", or even "feast" could the following phrase in the verse be of utmost importance? lets read 2197 further.
faman farada feehinna alhajja fala rafatha wala fusooqa wala jidala fee alhajji
didn't that phrase gave important guidelines for performing "alhajj"?
while i don't argue against other people's idea of "alhajj" as "the pilgrimage" or "the feast", personally i must first secure some valid proofs and pointers before forming my own personal comprehensions regarding "alhajj".
verses in "albaqarah" and others seem to suggest to me that "alhajj" is most likely to mean "the persuasion". the first part of 2197 is "the persuasion (alhajj) is the propagations (ashoorun) of information/perceptions/discoveries (maAAloomatun)".
try this idea, if you wish, for other verses of the qur-an where "alhajj" occurs and you may perhaps find the most likely meaning of "alhajj". don't let our prejudice fool us in our search for the truth. nor let the dictionaries or other language tools to restrain our efforts too. you may in the end discover that "alhajj" may not mean "the persuasion" after all, but we need to search without the prejudice. let God guide us to acquire the truth. insha-Allah.
peace
mohammed noh -
Would you follow "jewish" understanding for all matters or just for hajj, and what if jews misunderstood "hagg" would you still follow their understanding, so how can you be sure they are right with "hagg"?
A fourth point that I forgot to add is the following
- If you look closely at the inscription in http//ntwrong.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/neo-hittite-funerary-rite/ it was actually inscribed by pagans not Jews and yet it uses the word "hagg" in the same sense of "feast". So this was not a religious term that belonged to a specific religious group such as the Jews. The meaing of "hagg/hajj" as feast was clearly part of the ordinary language of people regardless of religious affiliation.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace ayman,
Early on in this thread you made reference to nafaqa and how the root brings about contradictory meanings. Can you please post the link where you discuss this? I hope that I haven't misrepresented your post as I couldn't find it.
Imraan
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Peace,
Peace ayman,
Early on in this thread you made reference to nafaqa and how the root brings about contradictory meanings. Can you please post the link where you discuss this? I hope that I haven't misrepresented your post as I couldn't find it.
Imraan
Discussed here, and here. And the reference you were looking for is somewhere in the last part of THIS post.
Abdelilah
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It won't be as contradictory as you think, if you can see the pattern "to come out of a hole; to enter into another hole where there is another outlet" (taken from PRL online, root nun-fa-qaf)
a hypocrite enters an "inlet" (e.g. of faith) only to come out from another "outlet" (along the line of that faith).
a sum of wealth enters one of your pockets/wallets/accounts/ways to be spent out from one of your other pockets/wallets/accounts/ways
(think of "tunnel/channel" in English)
my bad, irrelevant example now removed
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Peace Ayman, all,
First, thanks for your time and answer.
You then translate hajj = feast. This is the noon Al hajj = The feast
How would you translate the verbe. As in "faman hajja al baita".
I guess you will use a completly different word, but the question is why would you use different meanings for a word with the same root. I know sometimes it occurs but still 99% of the words share the same root to describe an action (verb) and the object derived from the action (noon), e.g root Ka-ta-ba
action kataba= to write
object al kitab = the book
(I know you know this, this is for the audience)
Peace -
Peace San,
It won't be as contradictory as you think, if you can see the pattern "to come out of a hole; to enter into another hole where there is another outlet" (taken from PRL online, root nun-fa-qaf)
a hypocrite enters an "inlet" (e.g. of faith) only to come out from another "outlet" (along the line of that faith).
a sum of wealth enters one of your pockets/wallets/accounts/ways to be spent out from one of your other pockets/wallets/accounts/ways
(think of "tunnel/channel" in English)
my bad, irrelevant example now removedI think that lexigraphers can come with some fairly far fetched explanations for divergent meanings. However, these same forms for NFQ and MuNAFQ ("F3L" and "MuFA3L" don't have such divergent meanings with other roots. For example, "DF3" (push) and "MuDAF3" (pusher/defender). I would say that it is just the nature of any human language to have oddities. Also, a proto-Semitic language may have indeed had the meaning the same but then it diverged through different languages and then one language later re-imported the foreign meaning. So we end up with two divergent meanings for the same root.
There are other examples of divergent meanings within the root. I already mentioned HJJ and SB7 where the imported foreign meaning has a different sense than the Arabic root. Another example is BRK. It can mean "fall on its chest" or bless/multiply (the imported meaning).
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Herbman,
First, thanks for your time and answer.
You then translate hajj = feast. This is the noon Al hajj = The feast
How would you translate the verbe. As in "faman hajja al baita".
I guess you will use a completly different word, but the question is why would you use different meanings for a word with the same root. I know sometimes it occurs but still 99% of the words share the same root to describe an action (verb) and the object derived from the action (noon), e.g root Ka-ta-ba
action kataba= to write
object al kitab = the book
(I know you know this, this is for the audience)No need to use a different meaning since it is the same context of feeding. The expression "feasted the house" may sound strange in English. However, think of it in the same way as "blessed the house", in other words, brought his blessing to the house. Similarly, in my opinion "feasted the house" would be "brought his feast to the house", or brought food to the house.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
Peace San,
I think that lexigraphers can come with some fairly far fetched explanations for divergent meanings. However, these same forms for NFQ and MuNAFQ ("F3L" and "MuFA3L" don't have such divergent meanings with other roots. For example, "DF3" (push) and "MuDAF3" (pusher/defender). I would say that it is just the nature of any human language to have oddities. Also, a proto-Semitic language may have indeed had the meaning the same but then it diverged through different languages and then one language later re-imported the foreign meaning. So we end up with two divergent meanings for the same root.
If i saw it to be far-fetched, then personally i would exercise the option of removing the specific term "hypocrite" from the equation.
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peace Bro Ayman, all,
I only read up on "hagg sukot" (Feast of Tabernacles) today and it seems its core aspects are very similar to HJJ of AQ
http//www.wildolive.co.uk/sukot.htmThe word "tabernacles" come from tents, which implies travel and likely to certain location for a festival/feast/gathering. The timing seems similar. They also remember God, utilise/celebrate the Torah, spread the message, and it is open for all nations apparently. It also talks about representatives.
Previously, I did not realise it had these other aspects.
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Peace brother Wakas,
I only read up on "hagg sukot" (Feast of Tabernacles) today and it seems its core aspects are very similar to HJJ of AQ
http//www.wildolive.co.uk/sukot.htm
The word "tabernacles" come from tents, which implies travel and likely to certain location for a festival/feast/gathering. The timing seems similar. They also remember God, utilise/celebrate the Torah, spread the message, and it is open for all nations apparently. It also talks about representatives.
Previously, I did not realise it had these other aspects.It is good to hear from you on this subject.
Yes the timing of Hagg Sukot coincides with the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice (the last of the four inviolable full-moons). If you look at the essence of Hagg Sukot beyond the manmade rituals, it is essentially a harvest feast to eat and feed others and thank the god for the harvest. As you noted, probably the tents are remenants pointing to both the travel aspect and the need to accomodate the masses coming to the inviolable house.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Salaam all,
- First and foremost the Hebrew meaning of "feast" clearly fits the context of hagg/hajj in the great reading where 80% of the passages talk about food.
80%
I don't think I can agree with you on this.
Can you please quote all the aayaats and show how 80% of the Hajj related aayaats talks about food?
Thanks in advance.
May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Peace mmkhan,
Salaam all,
80% o
I don't think I can agree with you on this.
Can you please quote all the aayaats and show how 80% of the Hajj related aayaats talks about food?
Thanks in advance.
May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. KhanIt is probably easier for you to list the signs relating to "hagg"/feast that don't talk about food, since it would be a much shorter list.
Peace,
Ayman
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My translation
Truly, the animals of milking and the stone of slaughtering/cooking are from the markers/ordinances/regulations of God, so whoever undertook debate (at) the House/Establishment or visited, there is no error on him that he should go about/amongst them. And whoever does good voluntarily, then The God is Appreciative/Recognising, Aware/Knowledgeable.
Who are these "them"? Are animals of milking?
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No, it is both ssafa and marwa.
But ssafa and marwa is not there in the translation; they have become this
My translation
Truly, the animals of milking and the stone of slaughtering/cooking are from the markers/ordinances/regulations of God, so whoever undertook debate (at) the House/Establishment or visited, there is no error on him that he should go about/amongst them. And whoever does good voluntarily, then The God is Appreciative/Recognising, Aware/Knowledgeable.
And what does "stone of slaughtering" mean? Whether a sharp stone used for slaughtering a mammal or a platform of stone where an animal is laid for slaugtering?
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Yes, and whatever you translate ssafa and marwa as, the "them" refers to them.
This is in Classical Arabic Dictionaries for "marwa" white fragile stone where a cooking fire is started, the stone on which an animal is slaughtered.
No, I am talking about this translation
Quote
My translationTruly, the animals of milking and the stone of slaughtering/cooking are from the markers/ordinances/regulations of God, so whoever undertook debate (at) the House/Establishment or visited, there is no error on him that he should go about/amongst them. And whoever does good voluntarily, then The God is Appreciative/Recognising, Aware/Knowledgeable.
The above means that you are suggesting that after holding the debate the person may go to the animals of milking and the stone of slaughtering for which there shall be no blame upon him.
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@RagingG
The Hebrew view of Hagg was helpful. Thank you.
It also led me to wonder if in the surah fragment " The first 'Bayt' appointed for men was that at Baca full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings,"....could 'Baca' refer to 'first fruits' as in the Hebrew? I have always thought of Baca as a place but I think you have possibly illuminated something here.
Now many of you emphasize that bayt is wrongly thought of, in common thought, as a house.
In the opinion of the experts here, does the meaning of the word bayt correspond in any meaningful way if 'Baca' meant 'first fruits'?
I still think 'the fair at Botnah' (Mamre) is the location of this hajj to the bayt of the first fruits.but that is another issue.
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Peace,
I have posted some ongoing research on hajj verses at quranwiki.net.
Check it out here
http//www.quranwiki.net/index.php?title=Hajj_Chapter_2
and here
http//www.quranwiki.net/index.php?title=Hajj_Chapter_22
These are incomplete and awaiting your input. Make changes if you wish.
Imraan
