hajj / feast / debate

san

Peace Ayman,

Peace San,

I think that lexigraphers can come with some fairly far fetched explanations for divergent meanings. However, these same forms for NFQ and MuNAFQ ("F3L" and "MuFA3L&quot don't have such divergent meanings with other roots. For example, "DF3" (push) and "MuDAF3" (pusher/defender). I would say that it is just the nature of any human language to have oddities. Also, a proto-Semitic language may have indeed had the meaning the same but then it diverged through different languages and then one language later re-imported the foreign meaning. So we end up with two divergent meanings for the same root.

If i saw it to be far-fetched, then personally i would exercise the option of removing the specific term "hypocrite" from the equation.

Wakas

peace Bro Ayman, all,

I only read up on "hagg sukot" (Feast of Tabernacles) today and it seems its core aspects are very similar to HJJ of AQ
http//www.wildolive.co.uk/sukot.htm

The word "tabernacles" come from tents, which implies travel and likely to certain location for a festival/feast/gathering. The timing seems similar. They also remember God, utilise/celebrate the Torah, spread the message, and it is open for all nations apparently. It also talks about representatives.

Previously, I did not realise it had these other aspects.

ayman

Peace brother Wakas,

I only read up on "hagg sukot" (Feast of Tabernacles) today and it seems its core aspects are very similar to HJJ of AQ
http//www.wildolive.co.uk/sukot.htm
The word "tabernacles" come from tents, which implies travel and likely to certain location for a festival/feast/gathering. The timing seems similar. They also remember God, utilise/celebrate the Torah, spread the message, and it is open for all nations apparently. It also talks about representatives.
Previously, I did not realise it had these other aspects.

It is good to hear from you on this subject.

Yes the timing of Hagg Sukot coincides with the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice (the last of the four inviolable full-moons). If you look at the essence of Hagg Sukot beyond the manmade rituals, it is essentially a harvest feast to eat and feed others and thank the god for the harvest. As you noted, probably the tents are remenants pointing to both the travel aspect and the need to accomodate the masses coming to the inviolable house.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

mmkhan

Salaam all,

First and foremost the Hebrew meaning of "feast" clearly fits the context of hagg/hajj in the great reading where 80% of the passages talk about food.

80%

I don't think I can agree with you on this.

Can you please quote all the aayaats and show how 80% of the Hajj related aayaats talks about food?

Thanks in advance.

May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan

ayman

Peace mmkhan,

Salaam all,
80% o
I don't think I can agree with you on this.
Can you please quote all the aayaats and show how 80% of the Hajj related aayaats talks about food?
Thanks in advance.
May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan

It is probably easier for you to list the signs relating to "hagg"/feast that don't talk about food, since it would be a much shorter list.

Peace,

Ayman

Mazhar

My translation

Truly, the animals of milking and the stone of slaughtering/cooking are from the markers/ordinances/regulations of God, so whoever undertook debate (at) the House/Establishment or visited, there is no error on him that he should go about/amongst them. And whoever does good voluntarily, then The God is Appreciative/Recognising, Aware/Knowledgeable.

Who are these "them"? Are animals of milking?

Wakas

No, it is both ssafa and marwa.

Mazhar

No, it is both ssafa and marwa.

But ssafa and marwa is not there in the translation; they have become this

My translation

Truly, the animals of milking and the stone of slaughtering/cooking are from the markers/ordinances/regulations of God, so whoever undertook debate (at) the House/Establishment or visited, there is no error on him that he should go about/amongst them. And whoever does good voluntarily, then The God is Appreciative/Recognising, Aware/Knowledgeable.

And what does "stone of slaughtering" mean? Whether a sharp stone used for slaughtering a mammal or a platform of stone where an animal is laid for slaugtering?

Wakas

Yes, and whatever you translate ssafa and marwa as, the "them" refers to them.

This is in Classical Arabic Dictionaries for "marwa" white fragile stone where a cooking fire is started, the stone on which an animal is slaughtered.

Mazhar

Yes, and whatever you translate ssafa and marwa as, the "them" refers to them.

This is in Classical Arabic Dictionaries for "marwa" white fragile stone where a cooking fire is started, the stone on which an animal is slaughtered.

No, I am talking about this translation

Quote
My translation

Truly, the animals of milking and the stone of slaughtering/cooking are from the markers/ordinances/regulations of God, so whoever undertook debate (at) the House/Establishment or visited, there is no error on him that he should go about/amongst them. And whoever does good voluntarily, then The God is Appreciative/Recognising, Aware/Knowledgeable.

The above means that you are suggesting that after holding the debate the person may go to the animals of milking and the stone of slaughtering for which there shall be no blame upon him.

JSS

@RagingG

The Hebrew view of Hagg was helpful. Thank you.

It also led me to wonder if in the surah fragment " The first 'Bayt' appointed for men was that at Baca full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings,"....could 'Baca' refer to 'first fruits' as in the Hebrew? I have always thought of Baca as a place but I think you have possibly illuminated something here.

Now many of you emphasize that bayt is wrongly thought of, in common thought, as a house.

In the opinion of the experts here, does the meaning of the word bayt correspond in any meaningful way if 'Baca' meant 'first fruits'?

I still think 'the fair at Botnah' (Mamre) is the location of this hajj to the bayt of the first fruits.but that is another issue.

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace,

I have posted some ongoing research on hajj verses at quranwiki.net.

Check it out here

http//www.quranwiki.net/index.php?title=Hajj_Chapter_2

and here

http//www.quranwiki.net/index.php?title=Hajj_Chapter_22

These are incomplete and awaiting your input. Make changes if you wish.

Imraan

Wakas

peace all,

New article The Quran and 2196 - a lesson in critical thinking

http//www.islam-and-muslims.com/articles/Quran-2196-critical-thinking.html

ayman

Peace brother Wakas,

peace all,
New article The Quran and 2196 - a lesson in critical thinking
http//www.islam-and-muslims.com/articles/Quran-2196-critical-thinking.html

Great analysis.

So what do you think the full translation of 2196 should be?

Peace,

Ayman

Wakas

peace Bro Ayman,

2196 And complete the conference/symposium and the visit for God.
So if you are prevented/restrained then (give) what is easy of the offering/gift and do not relieve/cancel your chiefs/representatives (of this duty) until the offering reaches its permitted/lawful place (al bayt al atiq, see 2233),
so whoever from among you was sick (singular) or with him hurt/harm/annoyance from his chief then redeem from abstinence/fast or charity or observance.
So when (time adverb) you (plural) are safe/secure (i.e. in the designated vicinty) then whoever benefited/enjoyed in/with the visit to the conference/symposium then (give) what is easy of the offering so whoever couldn't find (singular) then an abstinence/fast three days during the conference/symposium and seven when you (plural) returned, this is ten complete.
That is for one whose people are not at-hand/present (at) the inviolable time of acknowledgement/SJD, and be conscious of God and know that God is severe in punishment.

If you, or anyone, finds any fault in the above, please let me know. Thanks.

matinbhagat

Peace brother Ayman,

I noticed you mentioned arabic is full of inconsistencies and quoted the nafaqa as an example of spending and also of hypocrisy. However, nafaq means keeping open, hence a hypocrite instead of being on any side, keeps open the possibility to jump to any one side which has the upper hand? Makes sense? Another key question, if arabic is full of inconsistences then how and why would Allah send us a message which we cannot understand? Unless of course you mean the arabic inconsistencies do not affect the quran per se? I am very interested in this and read a number of your thought provoking articles. Like you I have been actively in search of archaeological information of pre-quranic arabia. I came across a couple of interesting links and thought it may be worth discussing it with you and whoever else here who are interested.

These 3 inscriptions were found in madinah/yahtrib saudi arabia and appears to have names of muhammad ,abu bakr and umar. dated to around 4 AH. This then puts muhammad probably in this area as opposed to the lakhamid province?

http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid1.html

http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid2.html

http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid3.html

Also,

http//staff.aub.edu.lb/~webbultn/v7n9/article31.htm

The article is about authenticity of pre-islamic poetry and them being found on inscriptions in yemen at very early period. Please refer to it and see the arguments laid out, not sure if I can access the article.

"The professor devoted his talk to the defense of the authenticity of pre-Islamic poetry, which has been brought into question a number of times, particularly by Taha Husayn and some Orientalists. His lecture brought to light new discoveries of pre-Islamic poetry that were discovered in inscription form in Yemen and the Arabian Peninsula. These include examples of the Mu'allaqat (a canonical set of the most famous pre-Islamic poems), which were inscribed on rocks during the first century after Hijra (the seventh century AD)."

Peace brother.

P.S. I am very concerned about the implications/assertions of the inconsistencies of the arabic language as it is necessary for us to learn the message of Allah.

ayman

Peace brother Wakas,

2196 And complete the conference/symposium and the visit for God.
So if you are prevented/restrained then (give) what is easy of the offering/gift and do not relieve/cancel your chiefs/representatives (of this duty) until the offering reaches its permitted/lawful place (al bayt al atiq, see 2233),
so whoever from among you was sick (singular) or with him hurt/harm/annoyance from his chief then redeem from abstinence/fast or charity or observance.
So when (time adverb) you (plural) are safe/secure (i.e. in the designated vicinty) then whoever benefited/enjoyed in/with the visit to the conference/symposium then (give) what is easy of the offering so whoever couldn't find (singular) then an abstinence/fast three days during the conference/symposium and seven when you (plural) returned, this is ten complete.
That is for one whose people are not at-hand/present (at) the inviolable time of acknowledgement/SJD, and be conscious of God and know that God is severe in punishment.
If you, or anyone, finds any fault in the above, please let me know. Thanks.

Brother Wakas, your translation is a real eye opener. I think that there are only two things I would change

Your translation of masjid as "time of acknowledgement" is interesting but I am not sure it would fit all occurrences. I think that "institution" as opposed to "time" fits everywhere.
It is clear that the emphasis and importance is placed on the offering/gift. Even one's attendance is secondary to ensuring that the offering takes place. Logically, this tilts the scale heavily in favor of "hagg" being a feast and not a conference/symposium.

Peace and best regards,

Ayman

ayman

Peace brother Matinbhagat,

Thank you for your informative post.

I noticed you mentioned arabic is full of inconsistencies and quoted the nafaqa as an example of spending and also of hypocrisy. However, nafaq means keeping open, hence a hypocrite instead of being on any side, keeps open the possibility to jump to any one side which has the upper hand? Makes sense?

Another key question, if arabic is full of inconsistences then how and why would Allah send us a message which we cannot understand? Unless of course you mean the arabic inconsistencies do not affect the quran per se?

All human languages are full of inconsistencies. Arabic is merely a human language and it didn't descend from the sky. This is actually one of the amazing things about the great reading. It uses an inconsistent vernacular human language to deliver a consistent and powerful message.

There are many examples other than NFQ. Of course, one can always try hard to connect meanings but this can be done with any two vaguely related words. Take for example HGG, on one hand it means "argue" and on the other hand it means "feast" (from Hebrew). In fact, many words in the great reading are not Arabic at all but have their origin in other Semitic or even non-Semitic languages like Persian and Greek.

I am very interested in this and read a number of your thought provoking articles. Like you I have been actively in search of archaeological information of pre-quranic arabia. I came across a couple of interesting links and thought it may be worth discussing it with you and whoever else here who are interested.
These 3 inscriptions were found in madinah/yahtrib saudi arabia and appears to have names of muhammad ,abu bakr and umar. dated to around 4 AH. This then puts muhammad probably in this area as opposed to the lakhamid province?
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid1.html
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid2.html
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid3.html

No serious researcher dates those inscriptions to 4AH. They are similar and probably even newer than the following inscription dated to 84AH (early 8th century CE)

http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/makkah4.html

Also,
http//staff.aub.edu.lb/~webbultn/v7n9/article31.htm
The article is about authenticity of pre-islamic poetry and them being found on inscriptions in yemen at very early period. Please refer to it and see the arguments laid out, not sure if I can access the article.
"The professor devoted his talk to the defense of the authenticity of pre-Islamic poetry, which has been brought into question a number of times, particularly by Taha Husayn and some Orientalists. His lecture brought to light new discoveries of pre-Islamic poetry that were discovered in inscription form in Yemen and the Arabian Peninsula. These include examples of the Mu'allaqat (a canonical set of the most famous pre-Islamic poems), which were inscribed on rocks during the first century after Hijra (the seventh century AD)."

I can?t see the article in the link and it just refers to the lecture.

If you look at all the actual the pre-Islamic (Capital I) inscriptions on the Islamic Awareness web site, you will find that they bear no resemblance in style or language to so-called pre-Islamic poetry.

P.S. I am very concerned about the implications/assertions of the inconsistencies of the arabic language as it is necessary for us to learn the message of Allah.

Brother, the fact is that many people, including some who studied Arabic all their lifes and some who think that Arabic is a sacred and consistent language, don?t understand the message. Ironically, one of the reasons why most often don?t understand the message is that we elevate the language above the message and turn it into some sort of sacred language. Take for instance the word ?allah?, which you used but left untranslated. Most Arabic speakers treat it as a sacred Arabic word that shouldn?t be translated and thus don?t even know that it actually has the definite article and it means ?the god?. So they end up using it in ungrammatical sentences that are actually ridiculous in Arabic. For example, they will pray and say ?ya allah? when in Arabic it is ungrammatical and ridiculous just like saying ?ya alragul? (o the man). In Arabic you should add the device ?ayuha? (you) before definite words. So we say ?ya ayuha alragul? (Literally O you the man). However, in Arabic ?ayuha? is not a respectful way to address someone. So in the great reading we find the word ?allahum? used instead to convey the same meaning only in the case of the god. So ironically here we see inconsistency in language but the message is consistent and powerful.

Peace and best regards,

Ayman

drfazl

Hajj is the 'individualised Wish of God' blessed to every soul independently, which it shall live out in this world to the fullest satisfaction of Allah; And 'Unra' is his 'Efforts' towards gaining it through patience, endurance, steadfastness while seeking to strenghen his belief and faith in Him.

2196
Begin your Hajj and Umra in the Way of Allah; and if you are blocked then preserve in righteousness and persevere; and until you reach your goal, never slacken in the determination; however if any of you due to weakness slackens then his due compensation is fasting, or to spend for the needy, or to sacrifice from his valuables; and when peace comesforth unto him, let him fulfil to a great extent possible his obligation from Umra to Hajj by giving his valuables; and if this is not possible let him complete ten days? fasting- three, during the Hajj journey and seven when he is contented; and this is for those whose heart is not upon the sacredness and so fear Allah; and know that Allah is severe in punishing.

Wakas

salaam drfazl,
Thanks for your translation of 2196 however you may wish to see http//www.islam-and-muslims.com/articles/Quran-2196-critical-thinking.html
Also, in terms of someone actually being able to verify your translation you may wish to provide a word for word.