hajj / feast / debate
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@RagingG
The Hebrew view of Hagg was helpful. Thank you.
It also led me to wonder if in the surah fragment " The first 'Bayt' appointed for men was that at Baca full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings,"....could 'Baca' refer to 'first fruits' as in the Hebrew? I have always thought of Baca as a place but I think you have possibly illuminated something here.
Now many of you emphasize that bayt is wrongly thought of, in common thought, as a house.
In the opinion of the experts here, does the meaning of the word bayt correspond in any meaningful way if 'Baca' meant 'first fruits'?
I still think 'the fair at Botnah' (Mamre) is the location of this hajj to the bayt of the first fruits.but that is another issue.
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Peace,
I have posted some ongoing research on hajj verses at quranwiki.net.
Check it out here
http//www.quranwiki.net/index.php?title=Hajj_Chapter_2
and here
http//www.quranwiki.net/index.php?title=Hajj_Chapter_22
These are incomplete and awaiting your input. Make changes if you wish.
Imraan
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Peace brother Wakas,
peace all,
New article The Quran and 2196 - a lesson in critical thinking
http//www.islam-and-muslims.com/articles/Quran-2196-critical-thinking.htmlGreat analysis.
So what do you think the full translation of 2196 should be?
Peace,
Ayman
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peace Bro Ayman,
2196 And complete the conference/symposium and the visit for God.
So if you are prevented/restrained then (give) what is easy of the offering/gift and do not relieve/cancel your chiefs/representatives (of this duty) until the offering reaches its permitted/lawful place (al bayt al atiq, see 2233),
so whoever from among you was sick (singular) or with him hurt/harm/annoyance from his chief then redeem from abstinence/fast or charity or observance.
So when (time adverb) you (plural) are safe/secure (i.e. in the designated vicinty) then whoever benefited/enjoyed in/with the visit to the conference/symposium then (give) what is easy of the offering so whoever couldn't find (singular) then an abstinence/fast three days during the conference/symposium and seven when you (plural) returned, this is ten complete.
That is for one whose people are not at-hand/present (at) the inviolable time of acknowledgement/SJD, and be conscious of God and know that God is severe in punishment.If you, or anyone, finds any fault in the above, please let me know. Thanks.
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Peace brother Ayman,
I noticed you mentioned arabic is full of inconsistencies and quoted the nafaqa as an example of spending and also of hypocrisy. However, nafaq means keeping open, hence a hypocrite instead of being on any side, keeps open the possibility to jump to any one side which has the upper hand? Makes sense? Another key question, if arabic is full of inconsistences then how and why would Allah send us a message which we cannot understand? Unless of course you mean the arabic inconsistencies do not affect the quran per se? I am very interested in this and read a number of your thought provoking articles. Like you I have been actively in search of archaeological information of pre-quranic arabia. I came across a couple of interesting links and thought it may be worth discussing it with you and whoever else here who are interested.
These 3 inscriptions were found in madinah/yahtrib saudi arabia and appears to have names of muhammad ,abu bakr and umar. dated to around 4 AH. This then puts muhammad probably in this area as opposed to the lakhamid province?
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid1.html
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid2.html
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid3.html
Also,
http//staff.aub.edu.lb/~webbultn/v7n9/article31.htm
The article is about authenticity of pre-islamic poetry and them being found on inscriptions in yemen at very early period. Please refer to it and see the arguments laid out, not sure if I can access the article.
"The professor devoted his talk to the defense of the authenticity of pre-Islamic poetry, which has been brought into question a number of times, particularly by Taha Husayn and some Orientalists. His lecture brought to light new discoveries of pre-Islamic poetry that were discovered in inscription form in Yemen and the Arabian Peninsula. These include examples of the Mu'allaqat (a canonical set of the most famous pre-Islamic poems), which were inscribed on rocks during the first century after Hijra (the seventh century AD)."
Peace brother.
P.S. I am very concerned about the implications/assertions of the inconsistencies of the arabic language as it is necessary for us to learn the message of Allah.
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Peace brother Wakas,
2196 And complete the conference/symposium and the visit for God.
So if you are prevented/restrained then (give) what is easy of the offering/gift and do not relieve/cancel your chiefs/representatives (of this duty) until the offering reaches its permitted/lawful place (al bayt al atiq, see 2233),
so whoever from among you was sick (singular) or with him hurt/harm/annoyance from his chief then redeem from abstinence/fast or charity or observance.
So when (time adverb) you (plural) are safe/secure (i.e. in the designated vicinty) then whoever benefited/enjoyed in/with the visit to the conference/symposium then (give) what is easy of the offering so whoever couldn't find (singular) then an abstinence/fast three days during the conference/symposium and seven when you (plural) returned, this is ten complete.
That is for one whose people are not at-hand/present (at) the inviolable time of acknowledgement/SJD, and be conscious of God and know that God is severe in punishment.
If you, or anyone, finds any fault in the above, please let me know. Thanks.Brother Wakas, your translation is a real eye opener. I think that there are only two things I would change
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Your translation of masjid as "time of acknowledgement" is interesting but I am not sure it would fit all occurrences. I think that "institution" as opposed to "time" fits everywhere.
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It is clear that the emphasis and importance is placed on the offering/gift. Even one's attendance is secondary to ensuring that the offering takes place. Logically, this tilts the scale heavily in favor of "hagg" being a feast and not a conference/symposium.
Peace and best regards,
Ayman
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Peace brother Matinbhagat,
Thank you for your informative post.
I noticed you mentioned arabic is full of inconsistencies and quoted the nafaqa as an example of spending and also of hypocrisy. However, nafaq means keeping open, hence a hypocrite instead of being on any side, keeps open the possibility to jump to any one side which has the upper hand? Makes sense?
Another key question, if arabic is full of inconsistences then how and why would Allah send us a message which we cannot understand? Unless of course you mean the arabic inconsistencies do not affect the quran per se?
All human languages are full of inconsistencies. Arabic is merely a human language and it didn't descend from the sky. This is actually one of the amazing things about the great reading. It uses an inconsistent vernacular human language to deliver a consistent and powerful message.
There are many examples other than NFQ. Of course, one can always try hard to connect meanings but this can be done with any two vaguely related words. Take for example HGG, on one hand it means "argue" and on the other hand it means "feast" (from Hebrew). In fact, many words in the great reading are not Arabic at all but have their origin in other Semitic or even non-Semitic languages like Persian and Greek.
I am very interested in this and read a number of your thought provoking articles. Like you I have been actively in search of archaeological information of pre-quranic arabia. I came across a couple of interesting links and thought it may be worth discussing it with you and whoever else here who are interested.
These 3 inscriptions were found in madinah/yahtrib saudi arabia and appears to have names of muhammad ,abu bakr and umar. dated to around 4 AH. This then puts muhammad probably in this area as opposed to the lakhamid province?
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid1.html
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid2.html
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/hamid3.htmlNo serious researcher dates those inscriptions to 4AH. They are similar and probably even newer than the following inscription dated to 84AH (early 8th century CE)
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/makkah4.html
Also,
http//staff.aub.edu.lb/~webbultn/v7n9/article31.htm
The article is about authenticity of pre-islamic poetry and them being found on inscriptions in yemen at very early period. Please refer to it and see the arguments laid out, not sure if I can access the article.
"The professor devoted his talk to the defense of the authenticity of pre-Islamic poetry, which has been brought into question a number of times, particularly by Taha Husayn and some Orientalists. His lecture brought to light new discoveries of pre-Islamic poetry that were discovered in inscription form in Yemen and the Arabian Peninsula. These include examples of the Mu'allaqat (a canonical set of the most famous pre-Islamic poems), which were inscribed on rocks during the first century after Hijra (the seventh century AD)."I can?t see the article in the link and it just refers to the lecture.
If you look at all the actual the pre-Islamic (Capital I) inscriptions on the Islamic Awareness web site, you will find that they bear no resemblance in style or language to so-called pre-Islamic poetry.
P.S. I am very concerned about the implications/assertions of the inconsistencies of the arabic language as it is necessary for us to learn the message of Allah.
Brother, the fact is that many people, including some who studied Arabic all their lifes and some who think that Arabic is a sacred and consistent language, don?t understand the message. Ironically, one of the reasons why most often don?t understand the message is that we elevate the language above the message and turn it into some sort of sacred language. Take for instance the word ?allah?, which you used but left untranslated. Most Arabic speakers treat it as a sacred Arabic word that shouldn?t be translated and thus don?t even know that it actually has the definite article and it means ?the god?. So they end up using it in ungrammatical sentences that are actually ridiculous in Arabic. For example, they will pray and say ?ya allah? when in Arabic it is ungrammatical and ridiculous just like saying ?ya alragul? (o the man). In Arabic you should add the device ?ayuha? (you) before definite words. So we say ?ya ayuha alragul? (Literally O you the man). However, in Arabic ?ayuha? is not a respectful way to address someone. So in the great reading we find the word ?allahum? used instead to convey the same meaning only in the case of the god. So ironically here we see inconsistency in language but the message is consistent and powerful.
Peace and best regards,
Ayman
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Hajj is the 'individualised Wish of God' blessed to every soul independently, which it shall live out in this world to the fullest satisfaction of Allah; And 'Unra' is his 'Efforts' towards gaining it through patience, endurance, steadfastness while seeking to strenghen his belief and faith in Him.
2196
Begin your Hajj and Umra in the Way of Allah; and if you are blocked then preserve in righteousness and persevere; and until you reach your goal, never slacken in the determination; however if any of you due to weakness slackens then his due compensation is fasting, or to spend for the needy, or to sacrifice from his valuables; and when peace comesforth unto him, let him fulfil to a great extent possible his obligation from Umra to Hajj by giving his valuables; and if this is not possible let him complete ten days? fasting- three, during the Hajj journey and seven when he is contented; and this is for those whose heart is not upon the sacredness and so fear Allah; and know that Allah is severe in punishing. -
salaam drfazl,
Thanks for your translation of 2196 however you may wish to see http//www.islam-and-muslims.com/articles/Quran-2196-critical-thinking.html
Also, in terms of someone actually being able to verify your translation you may wish to provide a word for word. -
peace Bro Ayman,
Peace brother Wakas,
Brother Wakas, your translation is a real eye opener. I think that there are only two things I would change
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Your translation of masjid as "time of acknowledgement" is interesting but I am not sure it would fit all occurrences. I think that "institution" as opposed to "time" fits everywhere.
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It is clear that the emphasis and importance is placed on the offering/gift. Even one's attendance is secondary to ensuring that the offering takes place. Logically, this tilts the scale heavily in favor of "hagg" being a feast and not a conference/symposium.
Even with our different word choices, in terms of practical application, it would appear to make little difference.
It's now just a matter of putting the verses together.
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How can these two verses be reconciled with each other's meanings
O ye who believe! Truly the ?mushriks? (polytheists) are ?Najas? (impure, unclean, etc.); so let them not after this year of theirs approach the Sacred Mosque.
And call out to mankind with the Pilgrimage, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
Because many from the "mankind" are mushrik, as we know from 12106 as well as from a posteriori.
Please give your opinion.
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Peace back to everyone who said peace
if hajj was instituted to Abraham, then a suggestion would be looking at the previous scriptures,
read http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599972.0
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How can these two verses be reconciled with each other's meanings
O ye who believe! Truly the ?mushriks? (polytheists) are ?Najas? (impure, unclean, etc.); so let them not after this year of theirs approach the Sacred Mosque.
And call out to mankind with the Pilgrimage, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
Because many from the "mankind" are mushrik, as we know from 12106 as well as from a posteriori.
Please give your opinion.
Salaam,
The one is talking about AlMasjied AlHaram the other is talking about AlHajj.
I have tried for some time to understand what AlHajj, AlMasjied AlHaram, AlBait, AlAsahru AlHaraam etc means.
The only thing I learned, is that our current understanding (=my sunni understanding) is far away from the truth.
At the moment I have only a vague idea.We really have to erase every influence of our previous sect-thinking to understand this better, as long as we approach this with our previous sect-understanding, we will not understand a thing and get only more confused.
Salaam,
Bender -
Salaam,
The one is talking about AlMasjied AlHaram the other is talking about AlHajj.
I have tried for some time to understand what AlHajj, AlMasjied AlHaram, AlBait, AlAsahru AlHaraam etc means.
The only thing I learned, is that our current understanding (=my sunni understanding) is far away from the truth.
At the moment I have only a vague idea.We really have to erase every influence of our previous sect-thinking to understand this better, as long as we approach this with our previous sect-understanding, we will not understand a thing and get only more confused.
Salaam,
BenderSalaam Bender,
I agree with you 100% on the highlighted part above bravo
May TheCreator increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Hi guys !
I've been reading alot about Hajj... and I feel like I've got the fattest headache on the planet. Ever since I was young I was never in an agreement that I should travel to Mecca to see some black stone that isn't even mentioned by the Quran and circle it 7 times which isn't also mentioned by the Quran (and from what I've heard originates from pagan practices.. if anyone has any archierlogical evidence of this ). I believe hajj is definitely something else... it seems to be referring to some form of a feast but where...? In a place which does not associate idols with God correct? Does this not mean then that it can be done in any believers house? Inviting a whole load of people to have a feast and witness the benefits of God...? Do we FINALLY have a set definition of what hajj actually is?? My brain has melted by constant observations of threads ... as I said the tradition thinking never sat right with me.... also just contradicted so many things .
Peace guys peace
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Peace Sushi,
I agree with you. It could be a feast at someone's house. However, for those people who have to fast, it suggests 3 days fasting on the journey to Hajj....This suggests that Hajj is a long journey away?
Dawn. -
peace /salaam,
Theoretically it could be conducted at someone's house, but for them to fulfil all of the Quranic criteria, I consider that unlikely.
E.g. invite all humankind, people can send gifts/food, slaughter animals, provide security/food/shelter/drink, enact certain locational restrictions during the period, discuss/sign treaties/trade agreements, a mix of people can interact, believers can remember/study Quran, etc etc.
Usually it would be overseen under an authority, or people/community with a position of power over an area can host it etc.
Even if one doesn't know what 'al hajj' is, as in what to call it, we know what goes on in it. We can go by that etc. I dont consider the topic difficult, perhaps determining the timing and sequence of events, but not most of it.
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Peace Wakas, Peace all.
I agree with your example.
A phase of GOD s plan is starting to be fulfilled as we speak /debate/ get on with our modern Scientific life.
Chapter 110 is starting its germination.
Think all of you servants of GOD alone. How many years before the prophet was allowed back to " Mecca"? Was he doing " Hajj" at the beginning? Where were all the believers meeting for a " ritual"?
GOD gathers HIS people according to HIS plan!
The Lord s promise is true.
Peace.
