An Indepth RESEARCH on SALAAT
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Salaams marie,
may be its my missunderstanding , to me there is a morning and eve - salaat , but having read your post have you said there could not possibly be a morn and eve salat because those few ayats are only for the messenger;please explain.regards. -
Peace mz357,
Salaams marie,
may be its my missunderstanding , to me there is a morning and eve - salaat , but having read your post have you said there could not possibly be a morn and eve salat because those few ayats are only for the messenger;please explain.regards.I do not have other arguments.
The verses 4102-103, 11114 and 1778 are connected and we have to consider their context.
We are not told to establish the salat at dawn and at dusk. Only messenger is concerned by these verses 11114 and 1778.
The verb 'aqama' (to establish) is used in the second person and not in the plural form in 11114 and 1778.
The question of YankeeDoodle is relevant
Taking the northern hemisphere as an example ;during summer at latitudes beyond 66 degrees North the sun does not set at all so how do you abide to the dawn and dusk salat??
This is the same salat for all whatever the geographical situation.
Allah enjoins us to study the quran and to establish the salat whatever the time (7320).
The salat is a scheduled book for the messenger and the the believers at the time of the prophet (4102-103, 11114 and 1778 ).
There is no verse directed to us in order to establish the salat at the prescribed time.
We read always "aqueemoo (establish in the plural form) the salat" without precision of time.
You have the quran at home to study it and you can make it when you want.
This is not the case at the time of the prophet, the quran was not entirely revealed, it is done gradually.The prophet and the believers establish the salat during these two times (learning of the divine commands..).If the prophet is still alive and the quran is not entirely revealed, certainly we are concerned by the verse 4103, the salat is a scheduled book in order to learn gradually from the prophet the divne commands...etc.
Allah knows best
Marie
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Peace be upon you Marie, Yd and all,
I have debated for a very long time that "salaat" was maintained at dawn and dusk, literally.
After thinking this through, I have no choice but to humbly submit to yor argument REGARDING TIMING.
At once I thought that the place where the sun did not set for a long time was a place that was punishingly cold, so I reasoned no one belonged there, but I have learned otherwise.
Therefore I humbly state that I was incorrect regarding dawn and dusk, and that they have a deeper meaning than the literal dawn and dusk.
However, I still debate that the word "salaat" indicates the learning process, not commitments, because we are told to uphold the covenant already, there is no need to repeat that with another word.
Further, there are too many verses indicating speech for "salaat" to be commitments.
Please share your views.
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peace,
wow this was a great post, good job@Marie and all for proving that two daily solaa was only a commandment for the messenger, this gives more rise to the possible correctness of definitions such as "commitments" or "divine system"
However, I still debate that the word "salaat" indicates the learning process, not commitments, because we are told to uphold the covenant already, there is no need to repeat that with another word.
what do you think "the covenant" is idolfree? I think the pledge to uphold the covenant is the overall agreement to uphold the commitments, serve none next to God, etc. I believe commitments are part of our covenant, in analogy terms The Covenant is the ultimate promise while our commitments are sanctions within that overall promise, like I say "do you promise not to do bad things?" and you say yes, that is the overall covenant, but bad things include murdering, stealing, adultery, etc. which you promised not to do in a general sense, these are the promises within the overall covenant
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Peace Idris,
Thanks for your support brother
In 7320, we are told to study the quran and to extablish the salat. I undestand this as to study the quran and to follow closely what we read / learn.
This article is about the meaning of the salat, it is written by our brother Hamed Mirghani and I found it is very interesting
Marie
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Peace be upon you Idris,
for proving that two daily solaa was only a commandment for the messenger
I think we are missing the point by saying that it was only for another person ONLY. The God does not command single beings, he guides humanity. I think what was proven is that the command it to EACH OF US singularly. The God creates an emphasis tha we EACH must maintain salaat.
The word "muhammad" implies one who is appreciative. We are to all struggle to be appreciative. We are all to spread the clear message. I am not a beleiver that there are some verses for a man named "ahmad/muhammad" and some for everyone else. It is a universal message.
what do you think "the covenant" is idolfree? I think the pledge to uphold the covenant is the overall agreement to uphold the commitments, serve none next to God, etc. I believe commitments are part of our covenant, in analogy terms The Covenant is the ultimate promise while our commitments are sanctions within that overall promise, like I say "do you promise not to do bad things?" and you say yes, that is the overall covenant, but bad things include murdering, stealing, adultery, etc. which you promised not to do in a general sense, these are the promises within the overall covenant
In the above example, you equate "bad things" with "covenant" as an example. That doesn't make sense to me becuase if we take covenant as a "general" desription, "commitments" is just as general, because it does not specify ANY SINGLE commitment. Do you see that?
So we can say "uphold the covenant",
or we can say "uphold the commitments",
Both are general statements, neither clarifies the other in more detail.
Further, there is more than one verse regardiong salaat that involves SPEECH.
Salaat IS one of the commitments of the covenant, not the covenant itself.
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Peace Kyle,
We agree, the quran is universal message, but you cannot deny that some verses are only directed to the prophet and examples are numerous.
Could you say that this verse 4102 could be applied for you?When Allah speaks to us , the plural form is used instead of the singular form.
Why Allah use the singular form (aqimi) instead the plural form (aqueemoo) for these verses 11114 and 1778?
Whay Allah use the plural forum (AAalaykum) instead of the singular form (AAalayka) in 283 when we are told that the siyam (fasting) is decreed for US as it was decreed for those before Us?
The singular form and the plural form are not interchangeable.
Allah knows best
Marie
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peace Hafeez,
I dont understand why you debate with me in a manner that implies I somehow uphold the salat=prayer understanding. This portion of your response was redundant. Although I did enjoy reading extracts from the traditional hadith showing how the understanding of the verse may have become corrupted. I like it when I experience another 'click' as another thing fits into place. My thread on "wusta" destroyed the traditional understanding, imho.
When you say darkness = zulam, I am not of the opinion only one specific Arabic word means one specific thing and no other Arabic word can mean the same. Whilst participating in PRL, I have realised this is not the case (e.g. it seems many Arabic words mean perished).
See 1133. I would concede as a minimum that ghasaq = darkening (i.e. in the process of becoming fully dark). I still think the logic implies "darkness" though.
About rukban, from all the other occurrences of the root I can see, it means to ride/mount/embark or refers to an animal that can be mounted.
Can you provide one other verse that supports your understanding of rkb = retinue escort?
Wakas
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peace sister Marie,
Thank you for that valuable information and thoughts.
Does the singular also appears in 10105, 2014, 2945, 3030, 3043, 3117?
From the info thus far, it makes sense. My understanding has been that the regular/timed slw was related to reading/reflection/oration of al quran.
I will have to study it further though.
Wakas
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Peace brother Wakas,
peace sister Marie,
Thank you for that valuable information and thoughts.
Does the singular also appears in 10105, 2014, 2945, 3030, 3043, 3117?
You are right and I add 17110 to 11114 and 1778.
It is not a chance if the singular appears in these three verses )
- Say ?Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in your salat X, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.?
You are correct when you say that the regular/timed slw was related to reading/reflection/oration of al quran
I think this is an assembly for reanding, oration of alquran directed by the prophet to the beliviers , this why Allah asks him "do not be too loud in your salat X, nor too quite; but seek a path in between"Marie
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Peace Hafeez,
D God guides those who will to be guided! I am slowly reviewing your impressive work but I could not wait until I finished to express accolades. I am smiling as I read. I have been patiently waiting for your salaat research to compare it with my own. God taught man by the quill. We take a lesson from that. We have thus far reached the same conclusions and you have given me a few ?wings? to add to this bird. Ritual salaat flies in the face of reason. Marie has wonderfully clarified the scheduling issue. One comment for now, a tweak if I may Those who apostatize the name of God are in fact saying Allah the GREATER/BIGGER not Greatest.
The Comparative and Superlative are expressed in Arabic by adding the adjective to the mold or pattern aqtal (comparative) and al-aqtal (superlative). Thus the adjective kabir (= great, big, large) becomes akbar (= greater, bigger, larger) or, with the addition of the definite article, al-akbar (= greatest, biggest, largest).
Q. 678 ?And when he saw the sun uprising, he cried This is my Lord! This is (akbaru) greater! And when it set he exclaimed O my people! Lo! I am free from all that ye associate (with Him).?
The Superlative- Al-akbar (=greatest, biggest, largest)
Q. 93 ?And a proclamation from Allah and His Messenger is herewith made to all mankind on this day of the (al-akbar) Greatest Challenge. Allah disowns the idolaters, and so does His Messenger. So, if you repent, it will be better for you. But if you turn away from repentance, then know that you cannot escape Allah. (O Messenger) Give tiding of an awful retribution to those who are bent upon denying the Truth.?
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peace,
lets take a look at Yankee's question and apply it to Ramadan
Taking the northern hemisphere as an example ;during summer at latitudes beyond 66 degrees North the sun does not set at all so how do you abide to the dawn and dusk salat??
this question can also be applied to Ramadan fasting/abstaining from dawn to dusk, how can fasting in Ramadan be upheld at the same time all over the world (or at two seperate times, one for the northern hemisphere and one for the southern, but there are also no times in the year when the sun sets/rises for a whole hemisphere i think) when there are basically no times in the whole year when the sun sets/rises all over the earth for any amount of days, lets say Ramadan is in summer how can people in latitudes beyond 66 degrees north abide by it? this is only part of the problem, in verses 2184, 2196, 482, 589, 595, 584, and so forth we are told to abstain/fast in different occasions for different reasons, so lets say somebody that lives in latitudes beyond 66 degrees North during the summer and breaks a pledge, how would he abstain/fast according to 2196? to my view these verses aren't telling us to fast from dust to dawn when we fail at doing these certain things but to abstain from doing a particular thing when we do so (hence the meaning of saum-abstain) for these reasons I believe we have to change our views of dawn/dusk when it comes to Ramadan too, I'm not sure if Abstinence was also decreed for the prophet and his people as well too? whats your view Marie?
peace
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Peace Idris,
peace,
lets take a look at Yankee's question and apply it to Ramadan
Taking the northern hemisphere as an example ;during summer at latitudes beyond 66 degrees North the sun does not set at all so how do you abide to the dawn and dusk salat??
this question can also be applied to Ramadan fasting/abstaining from dawn to dusk, how can fasting in Ramadan be upheld at the same time all over the world (or at two seperate times, one for the northern hemisphere and one for the southern, but there are also no times in the year when the sun sets/rises for a whole hemisphere i think) when there are basically no times in the whole year when the sun sets/rises all over the earth for any amount of days, lets say Ramadan is in summer how can people in latitudes beyond 66 degrees north abide by it? this is only part of the problem, in verses 2184, 2196, 482, 589, 595, 584, and so forth we are told to abstain/fast in different occasions for different reasons, so lets say somebody that lives in latitudes beyond 66 degrees North during the summer and breaks a pledge, how would he abstain/fast according to 2196? to my view these verses aren't telling us to fast from dust to dawn when we fail at doing these certain things but to abstain from doing a particular thing when we do so (hence the meaning of saum-abstain) for these reasons I believe we have to change our views of dawn/dusk when it comes to Ramadan too, I'm not sure if Abstinence was also decreed for the prophet and his people as well too? whats your view Marie?
peace
I already posted a beginning of reflexion on this subject in Islamic Calendar & Ramadhan thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1902
Let me know what do you think?
Peace
Marie
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Peace and Salam to Grourself
Thanks for the patient reading and the keen observation. A process of questions and answers can only achieve perfection. I agree what you say about great, greater, and greatest but here what matters is the command of Allah and the execution of such command.
What is the command of Allah
The most beautiful names belong to Allah so call on Him (BI- -HAA) BY THEM; but shun such men as use profanity in His names for what they do they will soon be requited. 7180
The command is to call Him by THE beautiful names.
Say "Call upon ALLAH or call upon RAHMAN by whatever name ye call upon Him (it is well) for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Neither speak thy Prayer aloud nor speak it in a low tone but seek a middle course between."
Among THE beautiful names one is RAHMAN and what is not among THE beautiful names is ALLAH U AKBAR but AL KABIR.
So we are commanded to call Him by THOSE beautiful names, which are mentioned in the Quran.
And remember prophet would never call Allah by any OTHER name except that revealed to HIM.
But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us say "Bring us a Reading other than this or CHANGE THIS." Say "It is not for me of my own accord to CHANGE IT I follow naught BUT WHAT IS REVEALED UNTO ME. if I were to disobey my Lord I should myself fear the Penalty of a Great Day (to come)." 1015
And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord NONE CAN CHANGE HIS WORDS and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him. 1827
So the prophet would never change the word AL KABIR as ALLAH U AKBAR which was not revealed to him.
Thanks.
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Peace to Marie
What about this verse, which is ADDRESSED to the BELIEVERS
O YE WHO BELIEVE! let those whom your right hands possess and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence) on three occasions before MORNING PRAYER; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the NIGHT PRAYER these are your three times of undress outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom .2458
You were right when you proved verse 11114 and verse 1778 were addressed to the prophet and not to the believers
But the above verse is addressed to the believers with the NAMES of the TWO PRAYERS, without the command to pray.
So how you interpret this verse?
Thanks.
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Peace be upon you Hafeez,
Peace to Marie
What about this verse, which is ADDRESSED to the BELIEVERS
O YE WHO BELIEVE! let those whom your right hands possess and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence) on three occasions before MORNING PRAYER; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the NIGHT PRAYER these are your three times of undress outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom .2458
You were right when you proved verse 11114 and verse 1778 were addressed to the prophet and not to the believers
But the above verse is addressed to the believers with the NAMES of the TWO PRAYERS, without the command to pray.
So how you interpret this verse?
Thanks.
Thanks for your question, I will try to answer it InshaAllah.
The salat is a scheduled book for the believers (4103) because it corresponds at the two moments when the prophet is ordered to establish the salat in 11114 and 1778 and where the believers learn the book from the prophet (4102-103).
If I?m not wrong, the salat at dawn and the salat at dusk mentioned in 2458 correspond to the two specific times prescribed to the prophet for holding the Salat in 11114 and 1778
I think only the believers at the time of the prophet are concerned by these verses 2458 and 4103.2458 is about etiquette in seeking permission before intruding upon someone at three specific times.
The first and the third time of undress are respectively before establishing the salat at dawn and after estabilishing the salat at dusk2458 brings a further information to the verse 4103 (al salat kitab mawqoot = the salat is a timed book) which is the salat at dawn and at dusk mentioned in 2458
Allah knows best
Marie
(edited to input the green text)
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Peace be upon you Marie,
Sorry for the delay.
We agree, the quran is universal message, but you cannot deny that some verses are only directed to the prophet and examples are numerous.
I disagree. Each of us has the capability to reach the highest levels that the God has prepared for the human being. There are verses for "those who have faith", so until you have faith, you do not qualify for these verses, but once you have faith, then you qualify, and it continues all the way up to "prohets" and "messengers". I believe all of us can achieve these levels. I do not understand being a prophet as being one with super hero powers whom a being with wings like a ghost comes to visit to recite a book (not saying that you do, just example). I take it as one who has disciplined thier thoughts and actions so that they maintain a peaceful state of mind wherby they can find the answers to the questions that plague most humans. When one finds the answers, they pass them on to others, which is the description of a messenger, one who delivers the message.
Could you say that this verse 4102 could be applied for you?
Absolutely, why not? When I am with them and lead them in "salaat", I let one half maintain salaat with me while the other half stands guard. Can you not see that for yourself, leading people in "salaat"?
When Allah speaks to us , the plural form is used instead of the singular form.
That makes sense because the God is addressing ALL LEVELS, but from time to time, He addresses the people who have ontained the higher levels.
Why Allah use the singular form (aqimi) instead the plural form (aqueemoo) for these verses 11114 and 1778?
I believe that the God uses the singular form because the learning process is an individual process that you must maintain yourself. No one can make you learn, it is an individual responsibility.
Whay Allah use the plural forum (AAalaykum) instead of the singular form (AAalayka) in 283 when we are told that the siyam (fasting) is decreed for US as it was decreed for those before Us?
(verse 2183) Because the verse is addressing a group of people who have attained the level of "O you who have faith", so that is grammatically correct.
Please give me your thoughts on that.
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Peace be upon you Hafeez and all,
Thank you for the reminder of the "private times' verse, which shows that we DO have two times per day for "salaat".
Since there are places where the sun does not set each day, we are left with the position that the God is using dawn and dusk to describe to us a deeper process than we fiorst thought, I offer the following solution, that the God is refering to dawn and dusk as the times when we get up or go to sleep. The God is using daytime to signify conciousness, and nightime to signify subconcious.
Scientist have discovered that the brain is more receptive at certain times of the day. The least receptive time for the human is the waking state which is called the Beta wave state. The brain wave in this state is 13 to 28 Hz. This wave state is not go for receptivity because it is this wakened state that is favors the Will (Consciusness). The Will is not your vehicle of receptivity, it is the Soul (Subconscius) that is your receptor. The ideal states of receptivity occur just above and just below the Beta wave state. Lets first talk about the state above the Beta Wave state. That is the Gamma wave state at 29 to 35 Hz. The brain enters this state in response to strong a strong emotion (anger, fear, ?love?, etc). This is the state that movie and television producers aim at when trying to program you. But this is not the state we want to plant our seeds by because we want to use intellect, not emotion. So lets talk about the brain state that is just below the waking state of Beta, that is the Alpha state 8 to 12 Hz. The brain enters this level in response to daydreaming or at the brief moment of passing from waking to sleep. This is the perfect time for what is called meditation, which means to reflect on or contemplate in the mind. The word Meditation comes from the root ?Medi? which means middle. We are balanced(wusta) between the wake state and dream state, or in other words, we are balance between the Consciousness(Will) and the subconscious(Soul). At this point let me bring a verse;
(223 (Everyone) Guard your process, the balance process, and maintain to The God devoutly.
To conclude this idea, we need to have access to both the Will and the Soul in order to unite them and for the Will to impregnate the Soul. We have explained how the waking state (Beta) is not conducive to receptivity, and how the emotional state above that (Gamma) leaves out reason/intellect. We have shown how the ideal state is the Alpha State (the word Alpha fits that perfectly) below the Beta state. Lets round this off with the brain state while sleep, the Delta state 4 to 7 Hz. This state is all receptive, but there is no Will involved in this state, so it is not beneficial for our purpose, the Learning Process(salaat).
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Peace be upon you Marie,
I think this is an assembly for reanding, oration of alquran directed by the prophet to the beliviers , this why Allah asks him "do not be too loud in your salat X, nor too quite; but seek a path in between"
Yes, the learning process(salaat) involves reading/reciting of the God's signs, wether it is THIS reading(quran) or the signs of the universe as Abraham did wehn he saw the rising and setting of the "heavenly" objects and reasoned that they have a Creator also. But with that in mind, please think about the following verse,
(443) You, those who have faith, do not approach the "salaat"s and you are intoxicated , until you know what you are saying.
What is the tense of this verse and how do you understand it in regards to salaat being only for a man named "ahmad/muhammad"?
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Peace be upon you Kyle,
Peace be upon you Marie,
Sorry for the delay.
We agree, the quran is universal message, but you cannot deny that some verses are only directed to the prophet and examples are numerous.
I disagree. Each of us has the capability to reach the highest levels that the God has prepared for the human being. There are verses for "those who have faith", so until you have faith, you do not qualify for these verses, but once you have faith, then you qualify, and it continues all the way up to "prohets" and "messengers". I believe all of us can achieve these levels. I do not understand being a prophet as being one with super hero powers whom a being with wings like a ghost comes to visit to recite a book (not saying that you do, just example). I take it as one who has disciplined thier thoughts and actions so that they maintain a peaceful state of mind wherby they can find the answers to the questions that plague most humans. When one finds the answers, they pass them on to others, which is the description of a messenger, one who delivers the message.
May be you are right but I find your reasoning too complicated.
Could you say that this verse 4102 could be applied for you?
Absolutely, why not? When I am with them and lead them in "salaat", I let one half maintain salaat with me while the other half stands guard. Can you not see that for yourself, leading people in "salaat"?
You speak about the beginning of the verse but you forget the context of the totality of the verse .
When Allah speaks to us , the plural form is used instead of the singular form.
That makes sense because the God is addressing ALL LEVELS, but from time to time, He addresses the people who have ontained the higher levels.
I understand your view but I don't share it. Could you give me one quranic verse which support your theory?
Why Allah use the singular form (aqimi) instead the plural form (aqueemoo) for these verses 11114 and 1778?
I believe that the God uses the singular form because the learning process is an individual process that you must maintain yourself. No one can make you learn, it is an individual responsibility.
Allah uses the plural form when He commads us to offer the zakat or to establish the salat , that doesn't mean we have to do it collectively.
I think this is an assembly for reading, oration of alquran directed by the prophet to the beliviers , this why Allah asks him "do not be too loud in your salat X, nor too quite; but seek a path in between"
Yes, the learning process(salaat) involves reading/reciting of the God's signs, wether it is THIS reading(quran) or the signs of the universe as Abraham did wehn he saw the rising and setting of the "heavenly" objects and reasoned that they have a Creator also. But with that in mind, please think about the following verse,
Actually we have the totality of the quran, we can learn from it day and night and meditate on the creation of Allah day and night.
Do we need specific times to do it?
In my humble opinion that doesn't make sence.(443) You, those who have faith, do not approach (plural form)the "salaat"s and you are intoxicated , until you know what you are saying (plural form).
What is the tense of this verse and how do you understand it in regards to salaat being only for a man named "ahmad/muhammad"?
443 is not directed to the prophet but to those who have faith.
When the Prophet taught the people how to institutionalize the law practices mentioned in the quran, I imagine there is an exchange between the prophet and the believers.
The tense of this verse is the present tense. We are concerned by this verse (the salat of gathering). Allah says "until what you are saying" that implies what we are saying to others in the assembly.
Peace
Marie
