An Indepth RESEARCH on SALAAT
-
Hello IdolFree,
I have asked this to Hafeez before but I am going to ask you just for good measure.Taking the northern hemisphere as an example ;during summer at latitudes beyond 66 degrees North the sun does not set at all so how do you abide to the dawn and dusk salat??
So the translation of Salat=Commitment=? would be independent of the movement of the Sun relative to us here on earth.
Cheers.
-
Peace YD, Kyle,
Hello IdolFree,
I have asked this to Hafeez before but I am going to ask you just for good measure.Taking the northern hemisphere as an example ;during summer at latitudes beyond 66 degrees North the sun does not set at all so how do you abide to the dawn and dusk salat??
Good point!
We have to observe the salat (establish the god system) during all our life.
I think the verse 4103 is linked to 4102, 11114 and 1778.
We have to consider the context of these verses , Allah doesn't say Aqeemoo (plural form) but aqimi (the 2nd person of the singular form).
-
And you shall hold (aquimi / the messenger) the salat at both ends of the daylight and the near part of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.
Wa aqimi alssalata tarafayi alnnahari wazulafan mina allayli inna alhasanatiyuthhibna alssayyi-ati thalika thikralilththakireena -
You shall hold (Aqimi/the messenger ) the salat at the sun?s decline until the darkness of the night, and the Quran at dawn; the Quran at dawn has been witnessed.
Aqimi alssalata lidulooki alshshamsi ila ghasaqi allayli waqur-anaalfajri inna qur-ana alfajri kana mashhoodan
The time for the salat on the day of gathering is not indicated and We are concerned by this commands. We could hold it at dawn, at dusk or other time...
- O you who believe, if the salat is called to on the day of gathering, then you shall hasten (faisAAaw towards the remembrance of God, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if you only knew.
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanooitha noodiya lilssalati min yawmi aljumuAAati faisAAaw (plural form) ila thikri Allahiwatharoo albayAAa thalikum khayrun lakum in kuntumtaAAlamoona
In 2183 Allah uses the plural form (3alaykum) and not (3alayka) and We are concerned by this commands (siyam).
- O you who believe, fasting is decreed for you (3alaykum) as it was decreed for those (allatheena) before you perhaps you may be (laAAallakum) righteous.
In 7320 Allah enjoins us to study the quran when we can, there is no time to learn from the quran.
We study the quran in order to establish the god system / to establish the salat (iqamat assalat)- Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it, as well as a group of those who are with you. And God measures the night and the day. He knows that you will not be able to keep-up, so He pardons you. So study what is made easy of the Quran. He knows that there will be sick among you, and others that venture out in the land seeking from God?s bounty, and others who are fighting in the cause of God, so study what you can of it. And hold the salat and contribute towards betterment and give God a loan of righteousness. And whatever you put forth yourselves, you will find it with God, for it is better and a greater reward. And seek God?s forgiveness, for God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Inna rabbaka yaAAlamu annaka taqoomu adnamin thuluthayi allayli wanisfahu wathuluthahu wata-ifatunmina allatheena maAAaka waAllahu yuqaddiruallayla waalnnahara AAalima an lan tuhsoohufataba AAalaykum faiqraoo ma tayassara minaalqur-ani AAalima an sayakoonu minkum marda waakharoona yadriboona fee al-ardi yabtaghoona min fadliAllahi waakharoona yuqatiloona fee sabeeliAllahi faiqraoo ma tayassara minhu waaqeemoo alssalata waatoo alzzakatawaaqridoo Allaha qardan hasanan wamatuqaddimoo li-anfusikum min khayrin tajidoohu AAinda Allahihuwa khayran waaAAthama ajran waistaghfirooAllaha inna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun
Any comments appreciated
Marie
-
-
Dear Yankee Doodle
Thanks for reminding me at the right time.
Your question still haunts me and undoubtedly has logic and cannot be avoided.
If we believe that words of Allah are perfect then the SALAAT at dawn and dusk should be valid in any part of the world. However, when this format of dawn and dusk salaat fails when applied in the Northern hemisphere, there remains no option, except to reconsider the meaning of the verse.
An Excellent and informative post by Marie From the reading I understand that there were some commands, which were directed to the prophet only and not to the followers.
The question of Yankee and the explanation of Marie fit like hand in the glove.
The command to observe salaat at dawn and dusk is not possible in the Northern hemisphere; therefore this command is without doubt directed only to the prophet.
Thanks Yankee and Marie.
-
Marie,
Perfect answer from the Al-Qur'an, which is one of the reason I need to really brush up my knowledge of second hand Arabic to know now that Aqimoo and Aqimi means you.
For many years I have always had doubt about this verse but now I can rest easy.
Thanks and much appreciated.
-
Peace hafeez kazi, YankeeDoodle, all
what I said in my last post is the fruit of a long reflexion and a collective inputs (free-minds and Hanif forums) D
Thanks for your invaluable inputs and your encouragement )
All prise to Allah
May Allah guide us to the straight path
Marie
-
Salaams marie,
may be its my missunderstanding , to me there is a morning and eve - salaat , but having read your post have you said there could not possibly be a morn and eve salat because those few ayats are only for the messenger;please explain.regards. -
Peace mz357,
Salaams marie,
may be its my missunderstanding , to me there is a morning and eve - salaat , but having read your post have you said there could not possibly be a morn and eve salat because those few ayats are only for the messenger;please explain.regards.I do not have other arguments.
The verses 4102-103, 11114 and 1778 are connected and we have to consider their context.
We are not told to establish the salat at dawn and at dusk. Only messenger is concerned by these verses 11114 and 1778.
The verb 'aqama' (to establish) is used in the second person and not in the plural form in 11114 and 1778.
The question of YankeeDoodle is relevant
Taking the northern hemisphere as an example ;during summer at latitudes beyond 66 degrees North the sun does not set at all so how do you abide to the dawn and dusk salat??
This is the same salat for all whatever the geographical situation.
Allah enjoins us to study the quran and to establish the salat whatever the time (7320).
The salat is a scheduled book for the messenger and the the believers at the time of the prophet (4102-103, 11114 and 1778 ).
There is no verse directed to us in order to establish the salat at the prescribed time.
We read always "aqueemoo (establish in the plural form) the salat" without precision of time.
You have the quran at home to study it and you can make it when you want.
This is not the case at the time of the prophet, the quran was not entirely revealed, it is done gradually.The prophet and the believers establish the salat during these two times (learning of the divine commands..).If the prophet is still alive and the quran is not entirely revealed, certainly we are concerned by the verse 4103, the salat is a scheduled book in order to learn gradually from the prophet the divne commands...etc.
Allah knows best
Marie
-
Peace be upon you Marie, Yd and all,
I have debated for a very long time that "salaat" was maintained at dawn and dusk, literally.
After thinking this through, I have no choice but to humbly submit to yor argument REGARDING TIMING.
At once I thought that the place where the sun did not set for a long time was a place that was punishingly cold, so I reasoned no one belonged there, but I have learned otherwise.
Therefore I humbly state that I was incorrect regarding dawn and dusk, and that they have a deeper meaning than the literal dawn and dusk.
However, I still debate that the word "salaat" indicates the learning process, not commitments, because we are told to uphold the covenant already, there is no need to repeat that with another word.
Further, there are too many verses indicating speech for "salaat" to be commitments.
Please share your views.
-
peace,
wow this was a great post, good job@Marie and all for proving that two daily solaa was only a commandment for the messenger, this gives more rise to the possible correctness of definitions such as "commitments" or "divine system"
However, I still debate that the word "salaat" indicates the learning process, not commitments, because we are told to uphold the covenant already, there is no need to repeat that with another word.
what do you think "the covenant" is idolfree? I think the pledge to uphold the covenant is the overall agreement to uphold the commitments, serve none next to God, etc. I believe commitments are part of our covenant, in analogy terms The Covenant is the ultimate promise while our commitments are sanctions within that overall promise, like I say "do you promise not to do bad things?" and you say yes, that is the overall covenant, but bad things include murdering, stealing, adultery, etc. which you promised not to do in a general sense, these are the promises within the overall covenant
-
Peace Idris,
Thanks for your support brother
In 7320, we are told to study the quran and to extablish the salat. I undestand this as to study the quran and to follow closely what we read / learn.
This article is about the meaning of the salat, it is written by our brother Hamed Mirghani and I found it is very interesting
Marie
-
Peace be upon you Idris,
for proving that two daily solaa was only a commandment for the messenger
I think we are missing the point by saying that it was only for another person ONLY. The God does not command single beings, he guides humanity. I think what was proven is that the command it to EACH OF US singularly. The God creates an emphasis tha we EACH must maintain salaat.
The word "muhammad" implies one who is appreciative. We are to all struggle to be appreciative. We are all to spread the clear message. I am not a beleiver that there are some verses for a man named "ahmad/muhammad" and some for everyone else. It is a universal message.
what do you think "the covenant" is idolfree? I think the pledge to uphold the covenant is the overall agreement to uphold the commitments, serve none next to God, etc. I believe commitments are part of our covenant, in analogy terms The Covenant is the ultimate promise while our commitments are sanctions within that overall promise, like I say "do you promise not to do bad things?" and you say yes, that is the overall covenant, but bad things include murdering, stealing, adultery, etc. which you promised not to do in a general sense, these are the promises within the overall covenant
In the above example, you equate "bad things" with "covenant" as an example. That doesn't make sense to me becuase if we take covenant as a "general" desription, "commitments" is just as general, because it does not specify ANY SINGLE commitment. Do you see that?
So we can say "uphold the covenant",
or we can say "uphold the commitments",
Both are general statements, neither clarifies the other in more detail.
Further, there is more than one verse regardiong salaat that involves SPEECH.
Salaat IS one of the commitments of the covenant, not the covenant itself.
-
Peace Kyle,
We agree, the quran is universal message, but you cannot deny that some verses are only directed to the prophet and examples are numerous.
Could you say that this verse 4102 could be applied for you?When Allah speaks to us , the plural form is used instead of the singular form.
Why Allah use the singular form (aqimi) instead the plural form (aqueemoo) for these verses 11114 and 1778?
Whay Allah use the plural forum (AAalaykum) instead of the singular form (AAalayka) in 283 when we are told that the siyam (fasting) is decreed for US as it was decreed for those before Us?
The singular form and the plural form are not interchangeable.
Allah knows best
Marie
-
peace Hafeez,
I dont understand why you debate with me in a manner that implies I somehow uphold the salat=prayer understanding. This portion of your response was redundant. Although I did enjoy reading extracts from the traditional hadith showing how the understanding of the verse may have become corrupted. I like it when I experience another 'click' as another thing fits into place. My thread on "wusta" destroyed the traditional understanding, imho.
When you say darkness = zulam, I am not of the opinion only one specific Arabic word means one specific thing and no other Arabic word can mean the same. Whilst participating in PRL, I have realised this is not the case (e.g. it seems many Arabic words mean perished).
See 1133. I would concede as a minimum that ghasaq = darkening (i.e. in the process of becoming fully dark). I still think the logic implies "darkness" though.
About rukban, from all the other occurrences of the root I can see, it means to ride/mount/embark or refers to an animal that can be mounted.
Can you provide one other verse that supports your understanding of rkb = retinue escort?
Wakas
-
peace sister Marie,
Thank you for that valuable information and thoughts.
Does the singular also appears in 10105, 2014, 2945, 3030, 3043, 3117?
From the info thus far, it makes sense. My understanding has been that the regular/timed slw was related to reading/reflection/oration of al quran.
I will have to study it further though.
Wakas
-
Peace brother Wakas,
peace sister Marie,
Thank you for that valuable information and thoughts.
Does the singular also appears in 10105, 2014, 2945, 3030, 3043, 3117?
You are right and I add 17110 to 11114 and 1778.
It is not a chance if the singular appears in these three verses )
- Say ?Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in your salat X, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.?
You are correct when you say that the regular/timed slw was related to reading/reflection/oration of al quran
I think this is an assembly for reanding, oration of alquran directed by the prophet to the beliviers , this why Allah asks him "do not be too loud in your salat X, nor too quite; but seek a path in between"Marie
-
Peace Hafeez,
D God guides those who will to be guided! I am slowly reviewing your impressive work but I could not wait until I finished to express accolades. I am smiling as I read. I have been patiently waiting for your salaat research to compare it with my own. God taught man by the quill. We take a lesson from that. We have thus far reached the same conclusions and you have given me a few ?wings? to add to this bird. Ritual salaat flies in the face of reason. Marie has wonderfully clarified the scheduling issue. One comment for now, a tweak if I may Those who apostatize the name of God are in fact saying Allah the GREATER/BIGGER not Greatest.
The Comparative and Superlative are expressed in Arabic by adding the adjective to the mold or pattern aqtal (comparative) and al-aqtal (superlative). Thus the adjective kabir (= great, big, large) becomes akbar (= greater, bigger, larger) or, with the addition of the definite article, al-akbar (= greatest, biggest, largest).
Q. 678 ?And when he saw the sun uprising, he cried This is my Lord! This is (akbaru) greater! And when it set he exclaimed O my people! Lo! I am free from all that ye associate (with Him).?
The Superlative- Al-akbar (=greatest, biggest, largest)
Q. 93 ?And a proclamation from Allah and His Messenger is herewith made to all mankind on this day of the (al-akbar) Greatest Challenge. Allah disowns the idolaters, and so does His Messenger. So, if you repent, it will be better for you. But if you turn away from repentance, then know that you cannot escape Allah. (O Messenger) Give tiding of an awful retribution to those who are bent upon denying the Truth.?
-
peace,
lets take a look at Yankee's question and apply it to Ramadan
Taking the northern hemisphere as an example ;during summer at latitudes beyond 66 degrees North the sun does not set at all so how do you abide to the dawn and dusk salat??
this question can also be applied to Ramadan fasting/abstaining from dawn to dusk, how can fasting in Ramadan be upheld at the same time all over the world (or at two seperate times, one for the northern hemisphere and one for the southern, but there are also no times in the year when the sun sets/rises for a whole hemisphere i think) when there are basically no times in the whole year when the sun sets/rises all over the earth for any amount of days, lets say Ramadan is in summer how can people in latitudes beyond 66 degrees north abide by it? this is only part of the problem, in verses 2184, 2196, 482, 589, 595, 584, and so forth we are told to abstain/fast in different occasions for different reasons, so lets say somebody that lives in latitudes beyond 66 degrees North during the summer and breaks a pledge, how would he abstain/fast according to 2196? to my view these verses aren't telling us to fast from dust to dawn when we fail at doing these certain things but to abstain from doing a particular thing when we do so (hence the meaning of saum-abstain) for these reasons I believe we have to change our views of dawn/dusk when it comes to Ramadan too, I'm not sure if Abstinence was also decreed for the prophet and his people as well too? whats your view Marie?
peace
-
Peace Idris,
peace,
lets take a look at Yankee's question and apply it to Ramadan
Taking the northern hemisphere as an example ;during summer at latitudes beyond 66 degrees North the sun does not set at all so how do you abide to the dawn and dusk salat??
this question can also be applied to Ramadan fasting/abstaining from dawn to dusk, how can fasting in Ramadan be upheld at the same time all over the world (or at two seperate times, one for the northern hemisphere and one for the southern, but there are also no times in the year when the sun sets/rises for a whole hemisphere i think) when there are basically no times in the whole year when the sun sets/rises all over the earth for any amount of days, lets say Ramadan is in summer how can people in latitudes beyond 66 degrees north abide by it? this is only part of the problem, in verses 2184, 2196, 482, 589, 595, 584, and so forth we are told to abstain/fast in different occasions for different reasons, so lets say somebody that lives in latitudes beyond 66 degrees North during the summer and breaks a pledge, how would he abstain/fast according to 2196? to my view these verses aren't telling us to fast from dust to dawn when we fail at doing these certain things but to abstain from doing a particular thing when we do so (hence the meaning of saum-abstain) for these reasons I believe we have to change our views of dawn/dusk when it comes to Ramadan too, I'm not sure if Abstinence was also decreed for the prophet and his people as well too? whats your view Marie?
peace
I already posted a beginning of reflexion on this subject in Islamic Calendar & Ramadhan thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1902
Let me know what do you think?
Peace
Marie
-
Peace and Salam to Grourself
Thanks for the patient reading and the keen observation. A process of questions and answers can only achieve perfection. I agree what you say about great, greater, and greatest but here what matters is the command of Allah and the execution of such command.
What is the command of Allah
The most beautiful names belong to Allah so call on Him (BI- -HAA) BY THEM; but shun such men as use profanity in His names for what they do they will soon be requited. 7180
The command is to call Him by THE beautiful names.
Say "Call upon ALLAH or call upon RAHMAN by whatever name ye call upon Him (it is well) for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Neither speak thy Prayer aloud nor speak it in a low tone but seek a middle course between."
Among THE beautiful names one is RAHMAN and what is not among THE beautiful names is ALLAH U AKBAR but AL KABIR.
So we are commanded to call Him by THOSE beautiful names, which are mentioned in the Quran.
And remember prophet would never call Allah by any OTHER name except that revealed to HIM.
But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us say "Bring us a Reading other than this or CHANGE THIS." Say "It is not for me of my own accord to CHANGE IT I follow naught BUT WHAT IS REVEALED UNTO ME. if I were to disobey my Lord I should myself fear the Penalty of a Great Day (to come)." 1015
And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord NONE CAN CHANGE HIS WORDS and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him. 1827
So the prophet would never change the word AL KABIR as ALLAH U AKBAR which was not revealed to him.
Thanks.
-
Peace to Marie
What about this verse, which is ADDRESSED to the BELIEVERS
O YE WHO BELIEVE! let those whom your right hands possess and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence) on three occasions before MORNING PRAYER; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the NIGHT PRAYER these are your three times of undress outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom .2458
You were right when you proved verse 11114 and verse 1778 were addressed to the prophet and not to the believers
But the above verse is addressed to the believers with the NAMES of the TWO PRAYERS, without the command to pray.
So how you interpret this verse?
Thanks.
