WHO, IS QURAN TO BE RECITED TO...ALLAH OR MEN?

[Satan_Hates_Me]

PRIEST_BOKMEI

gain, although SHM is abhorred to accept Allah's words, Allah, emphatically, states that His Quran is fully detailed, hence, where are the full details for this imagined ritual?

how about you stop abuse the verse for a change and use it in context. that is what is "played out" not GOD arguemtnt, but people, like you Priest, played out subjective, out of context arguments.

[Satan_Hates_Me]

SHM,

SHM wroteI can indeed protrate and get marks on my entire face, especially if i am protrating on grass!!!

No a single example is unqualified.I am trying to ascertain and collect datas to see how many muslim people in this world has marks on their forehead,nose cheeks,mouths,lips to confirm this verse that the marks of prostration should be on their face.

Now because this subject is not new ie about marks on their faces ,I was given an opportunity to do a survey years ago when I was still a muslim on this subject and the best place was in Mecca during the Hajj season of DhulHijja.

My finding confirms only a few pilgrims had dark marks of abrasion on their forehead ,prolly due to head banging against the floor but the rest of their faces Nil marks of abrasion.

So your point about marks on their faces does not hold any weight.It is meant to be something else and not physical marks.

Cheers.

First of all....i can "claim" i did a survey too with opposite result. SHOW ME THE PROOF!

Also, the face INCLUDES the forehead

face= 1. front of head the front of the human head, where the eyes, nose, face mouth, chin, cheeks, and forehead are
http//encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/face.html

Now i dont believe you "conducted" a survey. but even if you did, you probably conducted it wrong. Why? because you some isolate the forehead as a seperate element from the human face. IT IS THE FACE!!!!!

So your survey prove nothing except you dont know what a face is wink

---

So your point about marks on their faces does not hold any weight.It is meant to be something else and not physical marks.

you cannot be serious. if i said "i got marks on my leg from kicking". does that mean "kicking" doesnot mean "kicking" if only the marks are on my knee??!!! BE rational please. You are looking hard for excuses to deny.

[hafeez_kazi]

Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer) seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. ON THEIR FACES ARE THEIR MARKS (being) the TRACES OF THEIR PROSTRATION. 4829

In this verse there is no FOREHEAD and PRAYERS and these words are added in the translation just to highlight the importance of SUJUD and astray the Muslims from the right path.

TARAA -HUM RUKKAc (AN) SUJJAD (AN)
You see them in humbleness and prostrating

Is it not surprising that the prophet never saw them praying but saw them only bowing and prostrating

SEMAA -HUM FE WUJOH -HIM MIN 'ATHAR AS- SUJOD
Their LOOKS on their FACES is from the EFFECTS of their SUBMITTING

The word used in the verse is WUJOH and there is no way that marks will be created on the face by just prostration. I have been praying for so many years but no sign of SUJOOD MARKS has either appeared on my face or on my forehead.

Charity is for Fuqara (the poor), who in Allah's Cause are restricted (from travel), and cannot move about in the land (for trade or work). The one who knows them not, thinks that they are rich because of their modesty. YOU MAY KNOW THEM BY THEIR MARK, they do not beg of people at all. And whatever you spend in good, surely Allah knows it well. 2273

What MARK is the BEGGAR carrying on his FACE, to be IDENTIFIED that he is POOR
.
BUT YOU CAN KNOW WHETHER HE IS POOR BY HIS EXPRESSION, LOOKS, AND APPEARANCE

And betwixt the twain there will be a veil, and, on the heights will be men RECOGNISING THEM ALL BY THEIR MARKS, and they will cry unto the fellows of the Garden; peace be unto you! They will not have entered it yet, while they shall be longing. 2273

WHAT WILL BE THE MARKS OF THE PEOPLE OF THE HELL?

THOSE WHO WILL BE IN HELL WILL BE RECOGNISED BY THEIR EXPRESSIONS ON THEIR FACES CAUSED BY THE PAINFUL TORMENT OF HELL.

THE FOREHEAD

On the day when heat will be produced out of that (wealth) in the fire of hell and with it will be branded their FOREHEADS their flanks and their backs "this is the (treasure) which ye buried for yourselves taste ye then the (treasures) ye buried!" 935

Then when the twain had submitted themselves and he had prostrated him upon his FOREHEAD. 37103

Allah has used the word FOREHEAD twice and could have used thrice but He did not because He did not mean it.

It is FACE and cannot be FOREHEAD.

Thanks

[unknownuser]

SHM

Priest bok Mei I asked you to go to Al-Quran and find me the ayat which contains the word ritual, so, where is it?. You asserted that..."everything in Al-Quran is a ritual" and that there is a "ritual salat". Now, bring your convincing proof and find me the ayat(s) which backs up your assertions. I gave you, last post, the dictionary definitions for a ritual. Now, can you provide the Quranic evidence for your claims? a simple yes or no will suffice.

SHM is the exact word ritual in the Koran? NO

Preist Bok Mei Does Allah say that salat is a ritual....yes or no?

SHM No.

God does not use the term "ritual" everytime salat is mention. nor does He have to. The charateristics of salat make it a ritual!

You are very interesting. You admit that there is no such word as ritual in Al-Quran and then you go on to admit that there is no ayat which labels salaa as a ritual, yet, you still want to call salaa a ritual even though Allah, The Almighty Himself, doesn't say any such thing...that is bold.

You need to consider this ayat again

733. Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made haram are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.

Main Entry KNOW be convinced or certain of.

Main Entry KNOWLEDGE the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association.

Proof comes from creation as well. I can prove the God posses infinite knowledge without the Koran. one needs consistency in the arguments. If i say salast is something, i need to prove it in at least three different ways. i can prove salat is what it is in several ways, not just the koran alone.

All that is required to prove what you say is from Allah is...Al-Quran;

2185. Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear proofs of guidance and the criterion... in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.

Given this ayat then and your above admissions, there is no absolutely no way for you to prove salaa is a ritual, hence, your arguement is extinguished and the matter resolved, that is, salaa, is not a ritual. For you to continue to argue that salaa is ritual and a command from Allah, will only make you look silly at this point.

Next arguement

Is, Al-Quran, fully detailed?

how about you stop abuse the verse for a change and use it in context. that is what is "played out" not GOD arguemtnt, but people, like you Priest, played out subjective, out of context arguments.

6114 Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

111 A. L. R. (This is) a Book, with verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning), further explained in detail,- from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted (with all things)

1854 We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude but man is, in most things, contentious.

413 A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;

4144 Had We sent this as a Qur'an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?" Say "It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes) They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!"

So, is it your still your position that, Allah's arguement is played out and His Quran is not fully detailed? Is this your position...yes or no?

[Satan_Hates_Me]

hafeez kazi

who said the words prayers or forehead was in the vese

{4829}Muhammad - the messenger of GOD - and those with him are harsh and stern against the disbelievers, but kind and compassionate amongst themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating, as they seek GOD's blessings and approval. Their marks are on their faces, because of prostrating. This is the same example as in the Torah. Their example in the Gospel is like plants that grow taller and stronger, and please the farmers. He thus enrages the disbelievers. GOD promises those among them who believe, and lead a righteous life, forgiveness and a great recompense.

Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer) seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. ON THEIR FACES ARE THEIR MARKS (being) the TRACES OF THEIR PROSTRATION. 4829

In this verse there is no FOREHEAD and PRAYERS and these words are added in the translation just to highlight the importance of SUJUD and astray the Muslims from the right path.

TARAA -HUM RUKKAc (AN) SUJJAD (AN)
You see them in humbleness and prostrating

Is it not surprising that the prophet never saw them praying but saw them only bowing and prostrating

SEMAA -HUM FE WUJOH -HIM MIN 'ATHAR AS- SUJOD
Their LOOKS on their FACES is from the EFFECTS of their SUBMITTING

The word used in the verse is WUJOH and there is no way that marks will be created on the face by just prostration. I have been praying for so many years but no sign of SUJOOD MARKS has either appeared on my face or on my forehead.

of course you no have marks on your face. The veres did refer to you, but the believer MUHAMMED SAW. NOt you. CONTEXT PEOPLE, context is important.
Muslims today use something call "prayer rug" to prayer on, elimanting all chances of marks on the face. Please remember face is simply the front of the head, not the cheeks as many believe.

TARAA -HUM RUKKAc (AN) SUJJAD (AN)
You see them in humbleness and prostrating

please remember the words you intrepret as humble mean bow.

Charity is for Fuqara (the poor), who in Allah's Cause are restricted (from travel), and cannot move about in the land (for trade or work). The one who knows them not, thinks that they are rich because of their modesty. YOU MAY KNOW THEM BY THEIR MARK, they do not beg of people at all. And whatever you spend in good, surely Allah knows it well. 2273

do you know the different between this verse and 4829, there is no reference as why they have marks. In verse 4829, GOD baliantly states the the believers have marks BECAUSE OF PROTSRATING. In verse 2273 it just said "But you can recognize them by certain signs"
Another key different is the the location of the "sign/marks" is NEVER MENTIONS. However, with verse 4829 GOD baliantly states the marks is on their FACES.

What MARK is the BEGGAR carrying on his FACE, to be IDENTIFIED that he is POOR

You have added "face" in your intrepretation of the verse. Verse 2273 doesnt say face. Plus GOd baliantly tells us what those "marks/signs" are in the verse which is "never beg from the people persistently". So the term is better translated as "sign" than "marks."

It is FACE and cannot be FOREHEAD.

the forehead is a part of the face. There is not big diferent. Look it on in a dictionary. The face by defintion is simply the front of the head, period.

[Satan_Hates_Me]

PRIEST_BOKMEI

You are very interesting. You admit that there is no such word as ritual in Al-Quran and then you go on to admit that there is no ayat which labels salaa as a ritual, yet, you still want to call salaa a ritual even though Allah, The Almighty Himself, doesn't say any such thing...that is bold.

lol you are not serious right. i guess you believe somehow creating lies against GOD. Look....listen carefully. If it looks like a duck and quake like a duck, it is a duck.
GOD doesnt need to balaintly state the salat is a ritual for any human being to use intellect to determine that it is. You really need to let go of the "ritual is satanic" argument because it is baseless. There is several other things in the Koran that are ritual by pure defintion. Fasting, reading the koran, greeting muslin with peace. All these are "established patterns of observance." If you somehow think that salat is not a ritual because the koran does use the term ritual, you are just trying your best to deny that it is. I have learn the steps of those who deny. They first "taint" words and decriptions and then the subjectively use and aduse "fully-detailed" verses. For exmple

Next arguement
Is, Al-Quran, fully detailed?

how about you stop abuse the verse for a change and use it in context. that is what is "played out" not GOD arguemtnt, but people, like you Priest, played out subjective, out of context arguments.

6114 Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

111 A. L. R. (This is) a Book, with verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning), further explained in detail,- from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted (with all things)

1854 We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude but man is, in most things, contentious.

413 A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;

4144 Had We sent this as a Qur'an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?" Say "It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes) They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!"

So, is it your still your position that, Allah's arguement is played out and His Quran is not fully detailed? Is this your position...yes or no?

Your user name is fueling your ego and pride. When people debate, you cannot demand a yes or no question. Firstly, i didnt rasie the issue of if the Koran is "fully-detailed." I asked you to explain why you subjectively use those verses and abuse them out of context. You didnt even anwers my question. You can quote all the verse you want, but until you explain and use them in CONTEXT, to me you are just abusing them.

Look, i will post it again, for 30 post now, you still having address the issue raise. Hey, i think i know why but i will give you the chance to defend yourself. Please address tthese issue you are balanitly avioding

1. Your subjective use of "fully-detial"
2. Baliant use of koran verses OUT OF CONTEXT
3. The very subjective argument of "everything is in the Koran"
4. Baliant denial of verse 2532, that Muhammed didnt have the complete koran to preach to his people.
5. Subjective descriptions of the Koran purpose to subjectvely select what is spiritual and what is not spiritual in the Koran
6. Baliant assertions that the Koran is "spiritual guidance" only book
7. **inconsistency within your argument

[unknownuser]

SHM

you are not serious right. i guess you believe somehow creating lies against GOD.

What lies did I create? I simply asked you to show where the term ritual and where salaa is defined as a ritual in Al-Quran. By your own admission you could not do either, so, what lies are you referring to?

Look....listen carefully. If it looks like a duck and quake like a duck, it is a duck. GOD doesnt need to balaintly state the salat is a ritual for any human being to use intellect to determine that it is. You really need to let go of the "ritual is satanic" argument because it is baseless. There is several other things in the Koran that are ritual by pure defintion. Fasting, reading the koran, greeting muslin with peace. All these are "established patterns of observance." If you somehow think that salat is not a ritual because the koran does use the term ritual, you are just trying your best to deny that it is. I have learn the steps of those who deny. They first "taint" words and decriptions and then the subjectively use and aduse "fully-detailed" verses. For exmple

Has Allah, labelled any of the above things which you mentioned--rituals...yes or no?

Main Entry RITUAL the established form for a ceremony; specifically the order of words prescribed for a religious ceremony ritual observance; specifically a system of rites b a ceremonial act or action c a customarily repeated often formal act or series of acts of or relating to rites or a ritual ceremonial.

Main Entry RITE a prescribed form or manner governing the words or actions for a ceremony.

Main Entry ESTABLISH to institute (as a law) permanently by enactment or agreement to bring into existence to put on a firm basis to put beyond doubt.

Main Entry FORM established method of expression or proceeding procedure according to rule or rote b a prescribed and set order of words.

Main Entry FORMAL belonging to or constituting the form of following or according with established form, custom, or rule characterized by punctilious respect for form

Main Entry PRESCRIBE to lay down a rule dictate to lay down as a guide, direction, or rule of action.

Main Entry PATTERN a form or model proposed for imitation.

Main Entry PROCEDURE a particular way of accomplishing something or of acting b a step in a procedure a series of steps followed in a regular definite order.

If salat were a ritual as you claim it is, then, according to these ayats it would be fully detailed as a procedure in Al-Quran...so, where is it? Where does Allah show us how to...ritually fast, read Quran and give the greetings? Where are the prescribe forms/models for doing these rituals? Can you produce them...yes or no?

If you answer yes, then, provide the ayats which demostrate how these rituals are to be performed. If you cannot meet this request, then, simply admit that and let's move on to the next issue of debate, i.e. Fully Detailed.

[Satan_Hates_Me]

SHM

you are not serious right. i guess you believe somehow creating lies against GOD.

What lies did I create? I simply asked you to show where the term ritual and where salaa is defined as a ritual in Al-Quran. By your own admission you could not do either, so, what lies are you referring to?

Look....listen carefully. If it looks like a duck and quake like a duck, it is a duck. GOD doesnt need to balaintly state the salat is a ritual for any human being to use intellect to determine that it is. You really need to let go of the "ritual is satanic" argument because it is baseless. There is several other things in the Koran that are ritual by pure defintion. Fasting, reading the koran, greeting muslin with peace. All these are "established patterns of observance." If you somehow think that salat is not a ritual because the koran does use the term ritual, you are just trying your best to deny that it is. I have learn the steps of those who deny. They first "taint" words and decriptions and then the subjectively use and aduse "fully-detailed" verses. For exmple

Has Allah, labelled any of the above things which you mentioned--rituals...yes or no?

Main Entry RITUAL the established form for a ceremony; specifically the order of words prescribed for a religious ceremony ritual observance; specifically a system of rites b a ceremonial act or action c a customarily repeated often formal act or series of acts of or relating to rites or a ritual ceremonial.

Main Entry RITE a prescribed form or manner governing the words or actions for a ceremony.

Main Entry ESTABLISH to institute (as a law) permanently by enactment or agreement to bring into existence to put on a firm basis to put beyond doubt.

Main Entry FORM established method of expression or proceeding procedure according to rule or rote b a prescribed and set order of words.

Main Entry FORMAL belonging to or constituting the form of following or according with established form, custom, or rule characterized by punctilious respect for form

Main Entry PRESCRIBE to lay down a rule dictate to lay down as a guide, direction, or rule of action.

Main Entry PATTERN a form or model proposed for imitation.

Main Entry PROCEDURE a particular way of accomplishing something or of acting b a step in a procedure a series of steps followed in a regular definite order.

If salat were a ritual as you claim it is, then, according to these ayats it would be fully detailed as a procedure in Al-Quran...so, where is it? Where does Allah show us how to...ritually fast, read Quran and give the greetings? Where are the prescribe forms/models for doing these rituals? Can you produce them...yes or no?

If you answer yes, then, provide the ayats which demostrate how these rituals are to be performed. If you cannot meet this request, then, simply admit that and let's move on to the next issue of debate, i.e. Fully Detailed.

you still with this "ritual" thing. look, your definition of "ritual" is in conflict with my defintion of a "ritual". We will never resolve this issue because our definitinons are in conflict with each other. This is the definition i use http//encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/ritual.html. And i can see you use a different defintion to suite you purpose. but honestly the issues i raise have NOTHING To do with "ritual". Salat and many other things, for example ablution before salat are ritual by pure definition (56). Even by your defintion, ablution is a ritual. But who cares.

Please just address the issue you been ignoring them for over 30 post now. Please address them below.

1. Your subjective use of "fully-detial"
2. Baliant use of koran verses OUT OF CONTEXT
3. The very subjective argument of "everything is in the Koran"
4. Baliant denial of verse 2532, that Muhammed didnt have the complete koran to preach to his people.
5. Subjective descriptions of the Koran purpose to subjectvely select what is spiritual and what is not spiritual in the Koran
6. Baliant assertions that the Koran is "spiritual guidance" only book
7. **inconsistency within your argument

If you post the "ritual" issue again, i will not repsond because it has be resolve.

[unknownuser]

SHM

Please, contain your emotionalism, thanks.

you still with this "ritual" thing. look, your definition of "ritual" is in conflict with my defintion of a "ritual". We will never resolve this issue because our definitinons are in conflict with each other. This is the definition i use http//encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/ritual.html. And i can see you use a different defintion to suite you purpose. but honestly the issues i raise have NOTHING To do with "ritual". Salat and many other things, for example ablution before salat are ritual by pure definition (56). Even by your defintion, ablution is a ritual. But who cares.

The Encarta definition isn't any different than the Merriam-Webster definition, in fact, they contain the same key words i.e. established, formal, precise, etc. You see, SHM, it doesn't matter what your definition of ritual is, because by your own admission, there is not such term in Al-Quran for ritual nor does Allah label salaa as a ritual, hence, you wish to create a definition for something where Allah didn't.

rit?u?al

noun (plural rit?u?als)

1. established formal behavior an established and prescribed pattern of observance, for example, in a religion

2. actions done formally and repeatedly the performance of actions or procedures in a set, ordered, and ceremonial way ( often used before a noun )
   a ritual dance

3. unchanging pattern a formalized pattern of actions or words followed regularly and precisely ( informal )
   the weekend car-washing ritual

According to the Merriam-Webster and Encarta definitions for a ritual, how is the command to wash one's self in 56 a ritual? Does Allah call it a ritual?

The issue of ritual salaa is resolved. You have not been able to prove that there is any such thing in Al-Quran no matter how much you want it to be...by your own admission. What, are you going to prescribe a ritual and make a it law where Allah didn't? What, are you going to continue to say Allah prescribed such an such and then not produce the ayats where Allah, in fact, said such and such? Do you think Allah likes people to make a liar of him?

You need to demonstrate some some intellectual/Islamic maturity and honesty and simply admit you've lost this debate and stop saying of Allah what He didn't say Himself, and let's move on to the next topic.

[Satan_Hates_Me]

You need to demonstrate some some intellectual/Islamic maturity and honesty and simply admit you've lost this debate and stop saying of Allah what He didn't say Himself, and let's move on to the next topic.

if it will make you address the issues i presented, then
i admit the word ritual is not in the koran. wink
I have lost nothing, because the issues i raise are more important than the resence of a word in in the koran. NOW PLEASE ADDRESS THOSE ISSUE!!!! Please.

stop saying of Allah what He didn't say Himself

i didnt not say something about Allah that he didnt say Himself. We simply disagree on what a ritual is. Salat is a ritual by defintion, just like the koran is poetry by defintion, GOD doesnt need to say that it is for people to simply observe that factual statment. You are commit to the "exact" word argument, which will prove idiotic in your own argument of "spiritual guidance" only and subjective uses of verses.
That is why you want me to admit i "lost" this debate. It is GOd who honors and humble people. Not you oh "priest".
If the post will encrouage you to respond once more about the "ritual" thing, then just ignore it.

[YankeeDoodle]

Hi,

The most dangerous attribute I have is EGO(Shaytan).I try to contain shaytan but when it overwhelms me not only would my vision be impaired my senses and my brain would become mushy.

lol take it as a loose cannon.

[unknownuser]

SHM

if it will make you address the issues i presented, then
i admit the word ritual is not in the koran.

You've already done that.

I have lost nothing, because the issues i raise are more important than the resence of a word in in the koran. NOW PLEASE ADDRESS THOSE ISSUE!!!! Please.

Then my question remains...how can you continue to assert that there is a ritual salaa which we are to perform, when, by your own admission, Allah, Himself, does not say such a thing?

i didnt not say something about Allah that he didnt say Himself. We simply disagree on what a ritual is.

Oh, but you have. If you are going to continue to assert that there is such a thing as a ritual salaa, despite, the fact that, Allah has not defined it as such , yet, you still want to say that there is a ritual salaa, well then, you are saying something which Allah didn't, what are you talking about?

Salat is a ritual by defintion, just like the koran is poetry by defintion,

How can Al-Quran be poetry by definition, when Allah says the following

And We have not taught him poetry, nor is it meet for him; it is nothing but a reminder and a plain Quran,

You continue to say that, "salaa, by definition, is a ritual"...by whose definition? Did Allah define it as such, that is, does He call it a ritual? You've already admitted that He doesn't, so...what is this continued...salaa by definition stuff?

That is why you want me to admit i "lost" this debate.

733. Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made haram are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and that you say against Allah what you do not know.

Main Entry AGAINST in opposition or hostility to contrary to.

2124. Or have they taken for worship (other) gods besides him? Say, "Bring your convincing proof this is the Message of those with me and the Message of those before me." But most of them know not the Truth, and so turn away.

You have lost it. If you cannot, per the above ayats, prove what you assert by way of Al-Quran, then, you are acting against/contrary to Allah, and are simply setting yourself up as a god/guide, that is to say

2543 Seest thou such a one as taketh for his god his own passion (or impulse)? Couldst thou be a disposer of affairs for him?

[Satan_Hates_Me]

SHM

if it will make you address the issues i presented, then
i admit the word ritual is not in the koran.

You've already done that.

I have lost nothing, because the issues i raise are more important than the resence of a word in in the koran. NOW PLEASE ADDRESS THOSE ISSUE!!!! Please.

Then my question remains...how can you continue to assert that there is a ritual salaa which we are to perform, when, by your own admission, Allah, Himself, does not say such a thing?

i didnt not say something about Allah that he didnt say Himself. We simply disagree on what a ritual is.

Oh, but you have. If you are going to continue to assert that there is such a thing as a ritual salaa, despite, the fact that, Allah has not defined it as such , yet, you still want to say that there is a ritual salaa, well then, you are saying something which Allah didn't, what are you talking about?

Salat is a ritual by defintion, just like the koran is poetry by defintion,

How can Al-Quran be poetry by definition, when Allah says the following

And We have not taught him poetry, nor is it meet for him; it is nothing but a reminder and a plain Quran,

You continue to say that, "salaa, by definition, is a ritual"...by whose definition? Did Allah define it as such, that is, does He call it a ritual? You've already admitted that He doesn't, so...what is this continued...salaa by definition stuff?

That is why you want me to admit i "lost" this debate.

733. Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made haram are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and that you say against Allah what you do not know.

Main Entry AGAINST in opposition or hostility to contrary to.

2124. Or have they taken for worship (other) gods besides him? Say, "Bring your convincing proof this is the Message of those with me and the Message of those before me." But most of them know not the Truth, and so turn away.

You have lost it. If you cannot, per the above ayats, prove what you assert by way of Al-Quran, then, you are acting against/contrary to Allah, and are simply setting yourself up as a god/guide, that is to say

2543 Seest thou such a one as taketh for his god his own passion (or impulse)? Couldst thou be a disposer of affairs for him?

i enjoy talking with you. but i can see you dont want to address the issues i presented. Peace brother (or sister i think).

[Satan_Hates_Me]

Hi,

The most dangerous attribute I have is EGO(Shaytan).I try to contain shaytan but when it overwhelms me not only would my vision be impaired my senses and my brain would become mushy.

lol take it as a loose cannon.

huh?

[unknownuser]

SHM

i enjoy talking with you. but i can see you dont want to address the issues i presented. Peace brother (or sister i think).

I'm a brother, sister.

I enjoy talking with as well, however, from experience, I've found it pointless to jump from issue to issue without resolving one, hence, why I've kept the focus on ritual/ritul prayer. The issue of salaa, for me anyway, is resolved. You could not, by way of Quran, prove your assertion, hence, it is contrary to Quran/not a valid one. If you wish to move on to the issue of..."fully detailed" that would be fine with me, and, if not, well, that would be fine with me as well, sister.

[Satan_Hates_Me]

SHM

i enjoy talking with you. but i can see you dont want to address the issues i presented. Peace brother (or sister i think).

I'm a brother, sister.

I enjoy talking with as well, however, from experience, I've found it pointless to jump from issue to issue without resolving one, hence, why I've kept the focus on ritual/ritul prayer. The issue of salaa, for me anyway, is resolved. You could not, by way of Quran, prove your assertion, hence, it is contrary to Quran/not a valid one. If you wish to move on to the issue of..."fully detailed" that would be fine with me, and, if not, well, that would be fine with me as well, sister.

i am a brother.

i really would like you the address the issues i raise, especially your subjective use of "fully-detialed." Many say the koran is fully-detail in all matters, yet hopefully i will prove to you that this argument is very subjective and baseless.

[zenje]

Many say the koran is fully-detail in all matters, yet hopefully i will prove to you that this argument is very subjective and baseless.

Erm, actually GOD says it's fully detailed.

Peace.

Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed? Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice, there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

A Scripture whose verses are detailed, a Quran in Arabic, for a people who know.

[unknownuser]

PEACE ZENJE

You stole my thunder...I was going to post those exact ayats.

I wonder how he rationalize not accepting them.

[Satan_Hates_Me]

Many say the koran is fully-detail in all matters, yet hopefully i will prove to you that this argument is very subjective and baseless.

Erm, actually GOD says it's fully detailed.

Peace.

Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed? Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice, there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

A Scripture whose verses are detailed, a Quran in Arabic, for a people who know.

PEACE ZENJE

You stole my thunder...I was going to post those exact ayats.

I wonder how he rationalize not accepting them.

I am fully aware what GOD said about his scripture, al-quran. My dispute has nothing to do with what GOD said, but people abusing it and subjectively applying it.

For example, verses 6114-115. People love to quote this verses. They believe that these verse prove that nothing can exist outside the koran as important source of religious knowledge. However, if one read the verses right before these two, you learn that GOD was making specific reference to a particular subject matter. Abusing the Koran is quoting verses OUT OF CONTEXT, to prove baseless points.The verses is addressing lies attributed by "the enemies of every prophet." Then GOd said, shall you seek "GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?". Meaning "shall you believe and follow those lies when this book is fully-detailed in those matters."

The reason i say people abuse these verses is because NOT EVERYTHING IS FULLY DETASILED IN THE KORAN! For example, the dress code for submitting men and women are not fully-detailed. Yet when you bring this to the awareness of those who preach "everything in the koran only" they subjectively select this matter as not important as "spiritual guidance", contradicting themselves to what they testify. Although everthing in the Koran is for guidance only (2185), people who prech "koran only" would subjectively select what is guidance, "spiritual guidance" , koranic guidance, and all other classification to aviod explaining why the details for many issues in the koran is not "fully-detailed."

For example,

And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed.

Here is clear commandment for women to cover the their chest, and in other veres they (women) are told to lenghten their garment. However, it is not fully-detailed. For example

• How long?
• Cover what part of the chest?
• Cover what part of the body besides the chest?
• Can their legs show?
• Can thier arms show?
  etc. etc.

And other questions can developed. Techinically, a woman can wear only a swiming suit and meet all the koranic standards of modesty "fully-detailed" in the Koran. Why? Because with a swiming suit or body suit, all the areas specfically mention are indeed cover.

However, when this argument is use, people say "will they have to be modest, and modesty mean not being sexually appealing". But this prove the inconsistency within the argument. For example, where did they get that defintion of "modesty", it was surely not the koran but outside the koran. Where did they get the defintion for most of the arabic words they redefine? Didnt you look into the "arabic dictionary" as a source outside the koran to understand the koran.

Techinicaly, accordingly to those who preach "koran in everything" argument, a women who seek information and knowledge from an outside source than koran in how to dress modestly, is committing idolatry since "everything is fully-detailed" in the Koran. this is illogical.

My point is, either way you look at it, people who testify to the "everything is in the Koran" argument is simply exposing themselves as contradicting, subjective, hypocritical. They never really use the koran as the only absolute source in seeking information, guidance, source of law, or understand meaning. Then when you expose this to them, they subjective select what is important in the koran and what is not. However, the koran never classify the koran in such catergories but only a guidance (4144). Thats why they use terms like "spritual guidance" and "spiritual development" as a way to aviod this factual statement that not everything is fully-detailed in the koran. However, when God states "fully-detailed" it is always use in context.

However, when people seek knowledge to understand the koran using, previous scripture, history, mathematical structure, we are considerd "seeking a source of law outside the Koran." that is illogical and hypocritical.

[unknownuser]

PEACE SHM

O.K., we will move forward with the issue of..."fully detailed".

"The reason i say people abuse these verses is because NOT EVERYTHING IS FULLY DETASILED IN THE KORAN!...and all other classification to aviod explaining why the details for many issues in the koran is not "fully-detailed."

Alright, tell us then...what does Allah mean when He says

6114. Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

16.89 And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these-- and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.

18.54] And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.

Allah, in the following ayat, makes it clear that by Book He means Al-Quran

41.3 A Book of which the ayats are made plain, an Arabic Quran for a people who know

28.2 These are the ayats of the Book that makes (things) clear.

Given the above ayats then, what does Allah mean when he defines His Quran as fully detailed?