[Salaat] Are you aware ?
-
peace Badr,
Ahh, so even though "non-Muslim" authors use "Muslim" sources you reject what they say about them. How convenient. And the last reference was to Ibn Kathir, who is regarded as a "Muslim".
Rejecting the validity of information based on a negative perception about the person giving it is a logical fallacy. This is even in The Quran.
I only prefer to discuss using logic.
-
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/006.%20A23.gif
And if you listen to most of those on the Earth, they will make you unmindful of the way of Allah .
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/006.%20A24.gif
since they pursue/follow nothing but conjecture and they do nothing except guessing/imagining.6112-127
-
peace Badr,
Ahh, so even though "non-Muslim" authors use "Muslim" sources you reject what they say about them. How convenient. And the last reference was to Ibn Kathir, who is regarded as a "Muslim".
Rejecting the validity of information based on a negative perception about the person giving it is a logical fallacy. This is even in The Quran.
I only prefer to discuss using logic.
salaam,
is it logical for you to let 2 jews beign the reference when it comes to stuff regarding islam? do you follow quran when you want and skip the verses that dont suit your theory?, the verse i posted is cristal clear (2120), i dont think it have another explanation and the current situatin + historical facts prove it. it would personnaly make me more certain of my opinion, never the jews would make something that help islam growing so if they say hadith is uncertain i would stick to hadith ;D
on the other hand, ibn kutheir is an excellent mufassir, note that he mentionned "There were two ordained prayers prior to the Isra' journey." and i'm sure you know surat Al Israa.
-
Salaam and thanx for the response.
In fact, Yes I deny it. Look at your sources, I think it is more suitable to use muslim sources to prove your point (whether "Quranists" or regular)
"And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper." (2120)
this verse is of course from the book.
We can discuss the rest of the points if you want.
Peace
MashaAllah,
Brother Badr is so great that Wakas post at 0254 PM and Badr replied at 0309 PM i.e., within 15 minutes &
And he read, understood and replied together to
3 threads
7 pages
11 links to other threads
and
1 PDF file of 14 FULL pageshmm
May Allah open our hearts to understand the Truth before taking any action.
Mohammed M. Khan -
the verse i posted is cristal clear (2120), i dont think it have another explanation
Good!
and the current situatin + historical facts prove it.
Brother, you make me think a lot hmm
it would personnaly make me more certain of my opinion, never the jews would make something that help islam growing so if they say hadith is uncertain i would stick to hadith ;D
True! Not Jews, Not Nasaara, Not Bukhari, Not Muslim, Not.....
482
482 Do they not reflect on the Quraan? If it was from any other than Allah they would have found in it many a discrepancy.
on the other hand, ibn kutheir is an excellent mufassir, note that he mentionned "There were two ordained prayers prior to the Isra' journey." and i'm sure you know surat Al Israa.
BTW, brother can you please let me know the exact meaning of 'IBN-KATHEER'?
Thanks in advance,
May Allah open our hearts to understand and accept the Truth.
Mohammed M. Khan -
MashaAllah,
Brother Badr is so great that Wakas post at 0254 PM and Badr replied at 0309 PM i.e., within 15 minutes &
And he read, understood and replied together to
3 threads
7 pages
11 links to other threads
and
1 PDF file of 14 FULL pageshmm
May Allah open our hearts to understand the Truth before taking any action.
Mohammed M. Khando you insinuate that i posses special powers?
if you took the time to read my posts you would have understood that i didnt read as i consider these people beign not valuable.
-
Good!
Brother, you make me think a lot hmm
True! Not Jews, Not Nasaara, Not Bukhari, Not Muslim, Not.....482
482 Do they not reflect on the Quraan? If it was from any other than Allah they would have found in it many a discrepancy.
yes because the are absolutely no contradiction in it.
BTW, brother can you please let me know the exact meaning of 'IBN-KATHEER'?
Thanks in advance,
well it is a name, a proper noun, it is not supposed to have a particular meaning but it can be translated as "the son of alot".
-
Do all the people who think they know salat have it all right? what makes your theory better than others? saying someone is wrong without justifications is just illogical.
Do all the people who think salat is more than 2/3 times a day actually implement their so called theory? Or are they plain hypocrites?
Is the burden simply being astray because of salat or is it much more than that?
Have you ever considered the differentiations of words/context used to describe ?prayers"
did you ever consider the verse 629 says "youm aljim3a? day of the congregation not specifically ?Friday?
did you ever consider the word ?nafila? in the verse 1779 or do you consider all acts as commanding obligations?
were mosques simply made for people just to pray? Did you ever consider it a meeting place in which Islamic theological and life discourse happens.
Re-read 919 look at a diff interpretation e.g919 (Asad) Do you, perchance, regard the giving of water to pilgrims and the tending of the Inviolable House of Worship as being equal to one who believes in God and the Last Day and strives hard in God's cause? These are not equal in the sight of God. And God does not grace with His guidance people who do wrong
Do you really seriously think that there is only one method in life and that is the way people and their forefathers have practiced so it must be automatically right especially because theyre majority? I mean can corruption actually exist in a Muslim community? Who would think?
Do you really think God gave us a mind to be blind followers? How could majority be wrong?
Do you really read the Quran to actually understand the verses? Have you considered acknowledging your bias?
I?m so over people?s superciliousness.
-
peace,
on the other hand, ibn kutheir is an excellent mufassir, note that he mentionned "There were two ordained prayers prior to the Isra' journey."
Exactly as I stated. Thanks for the admission. So we are in agreement that the earliest "Muslims", according to you and Ibn Kathir, did salat twice daily.
My point was not only is your approach a logical fallacy, it goes against The Quran, see
http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/religion-science-reason-compatible.htmSpecifically
You who believe! If a fasiq comes to you with a report, verify it, lest you harm a people in ignorance, then be sorry for what you have done.Unfortunately for you, your basic view of - I dismiss it because its written by a Jew which means it cant be trusted - just shows how far you are willing to go to verify a truth........... not far.
Good luck trying to find the truth.
Each to their own.
-
yes because the are absolutely no contradiction in it.
So, is it not better to follow the one with "Absolutely No Contradiction In It"?
well it is a name, a proper noun, it is not supposed to have a particular meaning but it can be translated as "the son of alot".
The Son Of ALot? o
nope
May Allah protect us from evil.
Mohammed M. Khan -
peace,
Exactly as I stated. Thanks for the admission. So we are in agreement that the earliest "Muslims", according to you and Ibn Kathir, did salat twice daily.
Salaam,
But you know like me that each scripture comes with new laws that complete or nullify the previous one.
Also in the Islam itself, some laws came later to nullify the firsts like alcohol for example ; it was ok, then not before prayers then avoid it.
The Quran states that in the 1st verse of Al Isra
Mohsin Khan Glorified (and Exalted) be He (Allah) Who took His slave (Muhammad SAW) for a journey by night from Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) to the farthest mosque (in Jerusalem), the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, in order that We might show him (Muhammad SAW) of Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, lessons, signs, etc.). Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer.So the Isra did happened so the 5 prayers could have been commanded during this journey.
PS see the in the verse token from YOUR Quranic reference site wich prove my point about the translation.
My point was not only is your approach a logical fallacy, it goes against The Quran, see
http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/religion-science-reason-compatible.htmI totally agree with this "The Quran repeatedly emphasises the importance of seeking knowledge, verifying information, use of logic/reason, evidence, consultation, reflection/thinking, study of biology/creation/archaeology/history/sciences. Some of the many examples are shown below." I never said islam is about closing mind and follow like a sheep.
Specifically
You who believe! If a fasiq comes to you with a report, verify it, lest you harm a people in ignorance, then be sorry for what you have done.Unfortunately for you, your basic view of - I dismiss it because its written by a Jew which means it cant be trusted - just shows how far you are willing to go to verify a truth........... not far.
Good luck trying to find the truth.
Each to their own.
I go as far as I have to to verify and seek the truth but not from a jew because of the reasons I gave previously and if you really are a "quranist" then you have to take every verse as granted and it is cristal clear. Even logic don't accept that ; do you go see a lung doctor for a foot desease ?
Who knows more about islam ; a muslim or a jew ? will a jew scholar help islam or put a spoke in its wheel ? what is the purpose of a jew scholar by cleaing stuff about islam ?
-
Do all the people who think they know salat have it all right? what makes your theory better than others? saying someone is wrong without justifications is just illogical.
Hi Sarah,
By denying every historical fact you deny history itself, the prophet has prayed in front of muslims for more than eleven years (Al Isra happened before the hijra so let's take the hijra as reference), the prophet died between 11 and 13 hijra (let's take the minimum wich is 11), so the prophet prayed in front of thousands of people during 11 years wich make them 4015 days, a minimum of 8000 times (as you say, only 2 salaat, even we know that he wake up more than half of the night to pray) and you want me to believe that nobody knows how to pray ?
Yall take for granted historical stuff that happened once and you refuse to believe what people saw thousands of times and transmitted over the years and also put on paper for the next generations ? I can't believe it.Do all the people who think salat is more than 2/3 times a day actually implement their so called theory? Or are they plain hypocrites?
irrelevant.
Is the burden simply being astray because of salat or is it much more than that?
Well from what I read in this forum, if yall also refute the 5 pillars and the sunna of the prophet (by simply ignore it when there's alot of rules that must be followed) is it much more.
Have you ever considered the differentiations of words/context used to describe ?prayers"
Of course.
did you ever consider the verse 629 says "youm aljim3a? day of the congregation not specifically ?Friday?
Whether it's congregation or friday, there must be salaat during it "But when the prayer is ended, then disperse abroad in the land and seek of Allah's grace, and remember Allah much, that you may be successful." (Al joumou3a10)
did you ever consider the word ?nafila? in the verse 1779 or do you consider all acts as commanding obligations?
I never said it is obligation, read my post. On the other hand you who follow strictly the quran should consider this "Arise the night, except for a little -Half of it - or subtract from it a little -Or add to it, and recite the Qur'an with measured recitation." (732-4)
were mosques simply made for people just to pray? Did you ever consider it a meeting place in which Islamic theological and life discourse happens.
Re-read 919 look at a diff interpretation e.g919 (Asad) Do you, perchance, regard the giving of water to pilgrims and the tending of the Inviolable House of Worship as being equal to one who believes in God and the Last Day and strives hard in God's cause? These are not equal in the sight of God. And God does not grace with His guidance people who do wrong
1-it is also also for any worship way, a meeting place (that's why men have to pray in mosques... to meet and grow relationships and unify the community of muslims)
2-in 919 it is Masjid Al Haram wich is the Kaaba not a regular mosque.
3-if you really are sincere about the context of the quran and all, you'll know that this verse came for the pagans of Qureish who use to tend the Kaaba long before islam (as all the statues were there) and give water to the pilgrims (yes people use to go to the kaaba to circle around it and pay homage to the statues before Muhammad came and destroy them). God told them that it is useless to do that if you don't believe in the one god and you'll have no reward for it.
Do you really seriously think that there is only one method in life and that is the way people and their forefathers have practiced so it must be automatically right especially because theyre majority? I mean can corruption actually exist in a Muslim community? Who would think?
God gave us his laws to unifie us and made us brothers and sisters in islam so we can grow together as a community and the prophet brought us a set of every day life precepts that would make us better. It is not about a method in life because it really depends of the country you live in and your personnality and alot of other parameters but it's more a way of life and a way of thinking. God loved Muhammad and put it over all mankind by giving him the responsability to deliver the divine message so if the Most High loved him why wouldnt we ? see, a Michael Jackson fan would listen to his songs all day and maybe dress and act like him and all, is it abnormal if we follow our prophet and try to find what he did and did not to act in his footsteps ?
Do you really think God gave us a mind to be blind followers? How could majority be wrong?
If you assume that sunni muslims are blindfollowers consider that you are also blindfollowing the sunna rejecters as I'm sure you did not spent more than a few years (maybe a few months) to study the subject while people spent their entire life on it.
Do you really read the Quran to actually understand the verses? Have you considered acknowledging your bias?
In fact, I took the opposite way as most of yall, I used to disbelieve in the sayings of the prophet but I indeed acknowledged my bias.
I?m so over people?s superciliousness.
It is indeed one of the attributes of the shaitan.
"And when it is said to him, guard against (the punish ment of) Allah; pride carries him off to sin." (2206)
I hope I answered to all of your questions.
-
So, is it not better to follow the one with "Absolutely No Contradiction In It"?
At first yes.
The Son Of ALot?
nope
May Allah protect us from evil.
Mohammed M. KhanIs that a joke or is it because you are out of arguments ?
Alot = katheer
Lot = Lut or LootLet's be serious.
-
peace,
Also in the Islam itself, some laws came later to nullify the firsts like alcohol for example ; it was ok, then not before prayers then avoid it.
If that's your strongest evidence for abrogation, then that is weak. You probably know there is huge variance amongst "scholars" about abrogation, and some do not think it even exists. See http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601597.0
Secondly, vast majority of Traditional "scholars" do not state 5 prayers are explicitly in The Quran, as they know to say so is filled with problems/contradictions. So all you can claim is Quranic abrogation by way of Traditional Sunna/Ahadith.
So the Isra did happened so the 5 prayers could have been commanded during this journey.
Yes, so could have a lot of things.
-
Peace "Badr",
I think I have to clarify something here. NO RELGION, including Islam, has to date ANY INDEPENDENT scientific evidence that backs up any of it's historical claims via archaeology. Hence for you to claim anybody is denying history here is ridiculous. Thus most members on this forum use reason and logic and apply that to Quranic verse to discover what is accurate about rituals, if such exist at all and the history of Prophets and messengers since only the Quran has archaelogical backing dating back about 1400 years. Hadith were written 200 years after the Prophet according to documents and even there we don't have archaelogical evidence to back it up. Mightve been written just a couple of centuries ago. GOD Bless!
-
Peace "Badr",
I think I have to clarify something here. NO RELGION, including Islam, has to date ANY INDEPENDENT scientific evidence that backs up any of it's historical claims via archaeology. Hence for you to claim anybody is denying history here is ridiculous. Thus most members on this forum use reason and logic and apply that to Quranic verse to discover what is accurate about rituals, if such exist at all and the history of Prophets and messengers since only the Quran has archaelogical backing dating back about 1400 years. Hadith were written 200 years after the Prophet according to documents and even there we don't have archaelogical evidence to back it up. Mightve been written just a couple of centuries ago. GOD Bless!
allah ask us to pray
he revealed the way of the prayer to his prophet
the prophet follows the orders given by allah
he showed to the muslim how to pray during at least 11 years
thousands of muslims witnessed the prayers thousands of times
all those who follow the sunna (hundreds of millions) agree on the way of prayin the number of raka etc..
do you mean the traces we recieved could be more wrong than right ?
-
Peace "Badr",
allah ask us to pray
JK- If salat actually means prayer which i still think it does and yes dua=prayer too and we're recommended to do that too, though not compulsory.
he revealed the way of the prayer to his prophet
JK- WHERE in the Quran did GOD ever state that He specifically revealed a unique and new salat method to the Prophet or any method of salat for tht matter? To my knowledge there is no such verse. The first time we find salat in the Quran is in connection with Abraham but even that doesnt mean there has to be a specific physical method.
the prophet follows the orders given by allah
JK- He does but there is no evidence of the claims you state above.
he showed to the muslim how to pray during at least 11 years
JK- WHERE is the evidence to back this up and i dont mean biased relgious dogma but independent historical evidence backed by archaeology?
thousands of muslims witnessed the prayers thousands of times
all those who follow the sunna (hundreds of millions) agree on the way of prayin the number of raka etc..
do you mean the traces we recieved could be more wrong than right ?
JK- 1000 of Christians supposedly witnessed Jesus dying on the cross and then raised 3 days later claiming he's God. These stories of beleivers mean nothing without actual archaelogical evidence for which there is none in both cases. In other words it is mostly hearsay with little or no verifiable truth behind it. GOD Bless!
-
Peace "Badr",
JK- If salat actually means prayer which i still think it does and yes dua=prayer too and we're recommended to do that too, though not compulsory.
JK- WHERE in the Quran did GOD ever state that He specifically revealed a unique and new salat method to the Prophet or any method of salat for tht matter? To my knowledge there is no such verse. The first time we find salat in the Quran is in connection with Abraham but even that doesnt mean there has to be a specific physical method.
JK- He does but there is no evidence of the claims you state above.
JK- WHERE is the evidence to back this up and i dont mean biased relgious dogma but independent historical evidence backed by archaeology?
JK- 1000 of Christians supposedly witnessed Jesus dying on the cross and then raised 3 days later claiming he's God. These stories of beleivers mean nothing without actual archaelogical evidence for which there is none in both cases. In other words it is mostly hearsay with little or no verifiable truth behind it. GOD Bless!
the evidence is the oral then writting system of transmission, the same that has been used to preserve the quran.
theres also a difference between seeing an event once and seeing it 5 times a day during 11 years by the most truthful and trustworthy muslims.
