Traditional Sunni Challenge to Quranities
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I just need these questions to be answered directly one at a time. Linking to other posts or sites will digress too much.
How so? ???
Did you take your time to browse this forum before registering and starting your thread? If yes ? most of your questions should be answered. If no ? why not? Imho that's just common sense and courtesy.
I read this forum literally for years before even posting for the first time. Now that, of course, isn't necessary, but in general, one should spend some time getting an overview and an impression of members' views before registering and asking questions on any forum.
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Wa 'alaykum us-salam,
Apologies for the spam. I guess I am keen on an answer and didn't want to get missed. Perhaps the moderators could put it in the appropriate section as I wasn't sure where to put it. I just need these questions to be answered directly one at a time. Linking to other posts or sites will digress too much and may not directly answer the ayat and questions. One could paste responses if that is easier. But I need the questions addressed directly.
May Allah guide us all the the truth. Ameen.
Wasalam,
Isa
Cool. I deleted the other topics.
Just so you know, you don't "need the questions answered directly." It sounds like that's something you want, sure, but you certainly don't need it. The purpose of this forum isn't to satisfy all of Isa's desires.
Asking others to expend a lot of time and energy to re-argue the same topics that have been beaten to death on this forum is just another form of spam. So is asking them to "paste responses" here, especially when it's quite simple to just search the forum.
I'm going to go ahead and "need" you to expend at least some energy by searching the forum to get answers to your questions. Contrary to what you may think, your questions aren't new at all. They're actually quite common, so there's no need to worry about past posts not "directly answering" them.
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Wa 'alaykum us-salam,
'Allah (swt) has mentioned many Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc. They served their purpose. His duty was but to deliver the message, to deliver the warning, and he (sa) did.'
- You didn't answer the question. Allah asks us to follow the Beloved specifically. Why mention this numerous times if we should only follow the Qur'an?
'likewise Sunni Muhaditheen did not accept narrators from Jahmiyyah, Mu'tazilah, Shi'a or Khawarij.'
- Another digression. Also this is not true. Please provide your evidence for this claim. I don't want to digress too much.
'The Quran is a book. The Messenger of Allah (sa) is the one who Allah (swt) used to spread the message of that book. Thus he (sa) is appreciated for that, but not worshiped as a diety besides Allah (swt) by mimicking his every move - which is shirk. When you roll up your pants, sit and eat and bathe like him (sa) ... that is shirk in our eyes.'
- This is a massive statement. You don't even prefix or suffix it with 'alleged' and make a direct revelation of your state. Allah commands you to follow him and you say, clearly, that following him is shirk! Please retract your statement or at least privately repent.
'He was a good example for the seventh century.'
- This also reveals your state. So this is why you reject the Sunnah?
'Not only that but the Prophet (sa) forbade his followers from documenting any Hadith and told them only to write down the Quran - this is according to your Ahadith.'
- Also according to 'our' ahadith he gave permission for it to be documented. How can you use an evidence that you don't understand?
Not once did you use the Qur'an to answer my questions. You also digressed on a few points. Most grave of all you declared following the Sunnah (without modification) as shirk!
Please nobody make comments such as this. I regret opening this discussion if it will lead to such things. Please stick to the topic and address the ayat with ayat. We all accept the Qur'an insha'Allah.
I do need guidance, as do all of us. I came here seeking it. If that offends you I apologise. Indeed Iblis was cast out due to his wretched statement prefixed with 'I'. The forums are massive and go back years. I don't have the time to go through it all. If nobody wants to respond directly then that is fine. In all honesty the responses so far have already given me an indication that I don't belong here. I am deeply disturbed by the idea that following the Beloved is shirk in someone's opinion. My heart trembles at the statement. I don't seek to argue or open controversy. Please close down the discussion and delete my initial post and all responses.
May Allah guide us all to the truth. Allah send peace and blessings upon Muhammad and his family.
Wasalam,
Isa
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Most grave of all you declared following the Sunnah (without modification) as shirk!
Please nobody make comments such as this. I regret opening this discussion if it will lead to such things.
The truth hurts
Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?
6114 -
Asalaamu alaykum brother Isa,
If I misunderstand your question or fail to to answer it adequately I apologize for that. I also apologize if my beliefs are offensive, but I am supposed to state my beliefs right? Sure it's up to me to be able to defend those beliefs but I have to state them first. A Sunni Muslim might feel that my beliefs are 'bid'ah' or even 'kufr' they have a right to that perspective and belief, and we can kindly challenge each other on our perspectives. I also said the shirk was unintentional, but I believe following a human to the level of mimicking him on almost every move is worshiping him.
When I get home inshaAllah I will bring forward the verses of the Quran you want. But it is essential to understand that as humanity progresses in fields of science, philosophy and technology our views of reality adapt accordingly. Without using the mind and simply following traditional rituals expecting the rituals to make God pleased with you defies justice and rationality.
My intentions are not to offend you rather to test your beliefs. Do you at least acknowledge that the Jahmiyyah and Mu'tazilah were Quran only Muslims who did not follow the Fiqh and Ahadith of Sunni Muslims? Do you agree that the Ahadith were collected and "authenticated" by followers of the four Sunni jurists?
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Why would Allah mention the Messenger if we should only follow the Qur'an?
You're suggesting that obeying Allah and His Messenger are two separate things. The traditionalist position is that they are two different types of revelation.
Let's see if your logic holds on this one.
480 Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed God; and whoever turns away, We have not sent you as a guardian over them.
To remain consistent in your reading, you have no choice but to separate the 'obediences' again
So how do you reconcile this discrepancy?
Allah tells us that His Beloved was the recipient so that he could expound it for us. Is this not the Sunnah?
Why would 'it' be the sunnah? 'It' is the quran.
What is this 'Hikmah' that the Beloved educates us with, in addition to the Qur'an? Is it not the Sunnah?
Please reflect on the following verses and give us your thoughts
361 Quran al-hakim
358 - Dhikr al-hakim
101 - Kitaab al-hakim
312 - Kitaab al-hakim
Also, look at the structure of this verse and please incorporate it into your response
2148 We had given Moses and Aaron the Criterion, and shining light, and a reminder for the righteous.
What is the hikma being referred to in the above verses? The Quran and the Prophetic sunnah?
If the Prophetic guidance is restricted to the time of the sirah, how do you interpret his mercy for the universe and all existence?
1782 We send down from the Quran what is a healing and mercy to those who acknowledge. It only increases the wicked in their loss.
The mercy was what he came with. You acknowledge this, as you've rightly implied that since he is no longer with us, he can't be a mercy in his physical presence.
Why is Allah referring to His Beloved as a a giver of glad tidings, and warner? Why not refer 'only' to the Qur'an?
Because he had with him the glad tidings and the warning.
Why would Allah mention His Beloved being a good example to follow in such a general sense without it being relevant to all?
Please reflect on the following and give us your thoughts
604 There has been a good example set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people "We are innocent from you and what you serve besides God. We have rejected you, and it appears that there shall be animosity and hatred between us and you until you acknowledge God alone." Except for the saying of Abraham to his father "I will ask forgiveness for you, but I do not possess any power to protect you from God." "Our Lord, we have put our trust in You, and we turn to You, and to You is the final destiny.
From these ayat is it not clear that we should follow the Beloved in addition to the Qur'an?
No.
How do you pray?
How many times do you pray?
How many rakat do you pray?
When do you pray?
How much do we give for zakat and how often do we spend it?
How do you do Hajj? What are the rites?
Can we consume alcohol? How do we know the chronology of the ayat on the topic?
Please reflect on the following and give us your thoughts
1689 The day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. We have sent down to you the book as a clarification for all things, a guide, mercy and good tidings for those who have peacefully surrendered.
638 There is not a creature in the earth, or a bird that flies with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the book; then to their Lord they will be summoned
Why weren't the early Muslims 'Qur'an ONLY?' The Sahabah, including 'Umar, narrated hadith once they were sure the Qur'an was firmly established among the people. The followed Prophetic teachings in addition to the Qur'an and passed these on the following generations. Why isn't there a Qur'an only group with an unbroken chain back to the Prophet?
The early muslims clearly were quran only, hence their outright refusal to compile any hadith. To suggest that personalities like Abu Bakr (considered to be the best friend of the Prophet), Umar (according to hadith would have been a prophet had Muhammad not been the seal), Uthman (who the prophet used as an ambassador for political negotiations with Quraish) and Ali (renowned for his incredible intellect) did not have the foresight of hadith fabrication is simply insulting. If hadith was being narrated as you claim, then these men would have clearly known that within a single generation people would begin fabricating - yet they did nothing. They expanded the empire but could not gather some scribes and collect some essential prophetic narrations?
Why has it only emerged in the wake on colonialism?
This is pretty shocking for a shafi'i student of knowledge. Have you not read Shafi'i's Risalah?
If you have problems with hadith, generally or specific, why don't you pursue the study and point out in detail what is wrong with it?
What is wrong with it is that it isn't quran. It doesn't take an 8 year alim course to figure this out.
456 These are God's signs that We recite to you with truth. So, in which hadith, after God and His signs, do they acknowledge?
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Allah said ''. It does not means 'source of law.' He also said ' '. Now then, mufassal is maf'ul (passive participle). Who then, other than the Beloved, is the active participle? Your Rabb tells you
Indeed, Allah repeatedly tells us to follow the Beloved in addition to Him. I posted many ayat about that if you care to read.
What are your sources for the claims you make about the early generations? Is it other than traditional reports, narrated by traditionalists, both of which you reject?
One of the greatest evidences for me is that not a single member of Ahl al-Bayt is from among you, to my knowledge. However, the Prophet's family are well-known among the Sunnis and Shi'a. In addition they are some of the most ardent supporters of the Sunnah. Imam al-Shafi'i is regarded as Nasr al-Sunnah and the second mujaddid (you don't believe in tajdeed, I know) because he re-established the primacy of the Prophet's right over us after some had lost it. He used the same ayat I am using the establish this and the majority of the ummah agreed and followed this path. I could digress and offer the ayat about sticking to the community and asking the people of knowledge but that would digress.
Your arguments thus far as not convincing at all. Use ayat of the Qur'an the address ayat. Don't use traditionalist reports if you don't accept them yourself. If you believe all of them are lies against the Beloved why wouldn't they lie about the Sahabah and Salaf? Rather use your Quranite sources, if you have any. The Sahabah, in our view, recognised the dangers of fabrication and their response was the narrate, en masse (mutawatir), about the threats of lying about the Beloved. Some of them, such as Ibn Mas'ud, even refrained from narrating due to fear of mis-transmitting a single word, even if the meaning was correct.
Wasalam,
Isa
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Who are you talking to?
Please use the quote function.
Please reference the verses you are posting.Use ayat of the Qur'an the address ayat
I'm not sure what this means, or who you're referring to, but I referenced several quranic verses for you to ponder upon.
He also said ' '. Now then, mufassal is maf'ul (passive participle). Who then, other than the Beloved, is the active participle?
How about Allah?
Your Rabb tells you
If that's the case, why did Allah use the verb instead of ?
Oh wait, there is a verse that tells us who has 'fussilat' the quran
111 ALR. A book whose signs have been ascertained, then detailed, from One who is Wise, Ever-aware.
That should tell you who is the one detailing and explaining the quran.
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Allah said ''. It does not means 'source of law.' He also said ' '. Now then, mufassal is maf'ul (passive participle). Who then, other than the Beloved, is the active participle? Your Rabb tells you
Indeed, Allah repeatedly tells us to follow the Beloved in addition to Him. I posted many ayat about that if you care to read.
Wasalam,
Isa
Peace
One cannot follow the prophet whilst disobeying what God tells us in the other verses, such as
These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?
456
(٦Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt * The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient * If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess
6114-116
(٤ (٥ (٦You shall recite what is revealed to you of your Lord's scripture. Nothing shall abrogate His words, and you shall not find any other source beside it
1827
(٧What is wrong with your logic? * Do you have another book to uphold? * In it, do you find anything you want?
6836-38
(٦ (٧ (٨The only way to follow the prophet is if he were physically with us today to help us with any disputes we may have (459). I assume he would use the Quran to do this as I would imagine that he would followed the verses that I gave above. But how can you follow the prophet today? I mean if he was still with us today then we can hear his very words. But since that is not the case, how can we do what he tells us? By the hadiths? But how can we be sure if he really said those very words? People can easily make up a hadith and say that the prophet Mohammed said those words. Like we are told by God
We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications
(٢
Not only that, but someone honest recorded his very words, those words can become distorted over time by the very human and jinns described in 6112. There is much evidence of this if we read the hadiths. A lot of them either contradict the Quran or they contradict each other.
And then there are hadiths that give orders other than those in the Quran. Did the prophet Mohammed have the authority to do this? I think not...
A revelation from the Lord of the universe * Had he uttered any other teachings * We would have punished him * We would have stopped the revelations to him
6943-46
(٣ (٤ (٥ (٦Some would say that the hadiths just give extra details but isn't the Quran complete and detailed already? Saying otherwise is like calling God a liar!
Today, I have completed your religion
53
(3) ... ...
Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?
6114
(٤
The word of your Lord is complete
6115
(٥He has detailed for you what is prohibited for you
6119
(119) ...A scripture whose verses provide the complete details, in an Arabic Quran, for people who know
413
(٣We have given them a scripture that is fully detailed
(٢This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than GOD. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture
(٧Sorry to go off topic, but I just wanted to respond to this particular post.
Peace peace
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Oh wait, there is a verse that tells us who has 'fussilat' the quran
111 ALR. A book whose signs have been ascertained, then detailed, from One who is Wise, Ever-aware.
That should tell you who is the one detailing and explaining the quran.
The next ayat continues with what exactly Allah has expounded
Tawhid is clearly established in the Qur'an by Allah and the Prophet did not need to elaborate. The Qur'an is full of it. It is the single most important message of the Qur'an and Allah made sure that there would be no doubt about it. All Prophets came with it and Tawhid has never changed, although ahkam have. The Qur'an is the Majestic Book of universals. The Sunnah covers particulars that need clarifying. Proof of this is Salah and Hajj and Zakat. Without hadith you don't know how to do it. You even reject the shahadah from what I have seen so far on this forum. That is the reason why Allah commands us to follow the Prophet in numerous ayat. Why would Allah repeat this on many occasions if otherwise?
I must say that, although I admire your (all of you) dedication to the Qur'an, I lament your abandoning the Prophet and his Sunnah. No points raised here have convinced me that I should abandon the great blessings that are contained in the Sunnah.
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Peace,
Isa. The prophet recited the Quran that God gave him to the people with is own mouth. Following the prophet is following the Quran. And following the Quran is following God. To separate the prophet's God given teachings which he preached with his own sweat and blood is to be blind. The last prophet's teachings are the Quran and the Quran is from God. To obey God through following the prophet Muhammad is to follow the Quran, period. Stop separating the messenger from his message. We love him dearly as God's last prophet who's teachings were the Quran which God gave him. And he told us to love God and to follow him! And that is what we are doing. Peace and blessings be upon the last prophet and messenger of God!! And we Quranites will continue to uphold his teachings which he recieved from God, which he recited to the people to solve their disputes and to be a judge and a witness for them. He lives on through the Quran. He is why we all have the Quran. Because God taught HIM the book and he spoke and taught it to the people, and the people followed him, which means they followed his teachings THE QURAN. Stop this Hadeethy nonesense, of following these unfounded Ahadi RUMORS. Even a TRUE (not claimed) mutawaatir hadeeth (Mutawaatir on ALL levels of the chain!!) can have NO religious authority! The prophet taught us that his teaching was the Quran and that it is COMPLETE and FULLY DETAILED for our guidance. Anything not in it (even if it goes along with the Quran), IS NOT apart of the deen and is fard on NO Muslim. PERIOD! Take your Ahadi rumorous accounts somewhere else please. We don't need shakey rumors when we have the Quran which is not only the prophet's teaching and the word of God, but which is ALSO mutawaatir (i.e. historically authentic) on all levels, and the most authoritative of all mutawaatir sayings. Let the hadeeth be. Know them for linguitic reasons, learn mutawaatir/mutawaatir al-ma'any accounts for historical reasons, but free yourself of this rumor when it comes to your religion and your guidance. Follow the Quran alone. God has placed no hardship in the deen and he has made it simple. I pray twice a day (dawn and dusk included the parts of night approximate to both those times) and I establish al-kharru alaa al-adhqaani and rukoo'. The first is included in the second. So stand up to pray and then bow to the ground. Those are the only two movements needed for a normal prayer. Yes you may say there is disagreement in the Quranite community. But there isn't much more accordance in the rest of the Muslim world. That just comes with the terrority. People will understand things to the best of their ability or as they will. We must however remember that laa ikraaha feedeeni and even in the case of what we may see as kufr, lakum deenukum wa liya deeni. That is the sunnah/Uswah of the last prophet, directly from the Quran. Go in peace.
Godbless,
Anwar -
You shall recite what is revealed to you of your Lord's scripture. Nothing shall abrogate His words, and you shall not find any other source beside it
1827
(٧- This does not translate as you have put it. Which words from the ayah do you take to mean 'any other source beside it?' Why? Seek forgiveness from Allah for twisting the meaning of His Words for your own nafs.
What is wrong with your logic? * Do you have another book to uphold? * In it, do you find anything you want?
6836-38
(٦ (٧ (٨- Where is the word 'logic' in this ayah? Where is 'another' and 'to behold?' Stop messing with Kalam Allah! Do you know any Arabic at all?
The science of hadith was established to defend and preserve the Prophet's Sunnah. Look into it. It is one of the greatest intellectual achievements in human history. If you had any grounding in hadith you would know that we say that hadith can never abrogate the Qur'an. Hadith are rejected if they oppose the Qur'an. Very few indeed are those who argued otherwise.
A revelation from the Lord of the universe * Had he uttered any other teachings * We would have punished him * We would have stopped the revelations to him
6943-46
(٣ (٤ (٥ (٦- Where does it say 'teachings' or 'punished' or 'stopped revelations'? Where did you get these translations from. It is clear you are not aware of what you are saying. Do you know Arabic? The same goes for the rest of what you mistranslate or misrepresent from Allah.
Has anyone on this forum ever had any formal or traditional instruction in Islam? Have any ever been scholars or students of knowledge (learning from teachers as part of a chain to the Prophet)? Is there anyone here from the Prophet's family, with an unbroken chain to their grandfather, the Beloved of Allah? Where is your connection to the Prophet?
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Peace,
We are to perfom the hajj using the rituals al-'umrah. Hajj is the visit to house to perfrom al-umrah.
It can be seen in the hadeeth and in the Quran that the umrah at the hajj is no more than the above quote from lisaanul-arab 'All of the umrah is to circle the house and to go between safaa and marwah. Nothing more, nothing less. The rest of what we should do there besides umrah and going during the months for it are quite detailed in the Quran. No more no less than what is already there in the Quran. Zakaat means purity or betterment in Classical Arabic and in the Quran, not the contrived theological meaning of a poor tax. If you mean zakaat in the from of our giving saduqah then we are to give what we do not need and to give to our family, the one in the street and those in need. The Quran uses the term al-'afwu. There is no defined percent or amount. That is the Quran, whether you like it or not. 2.5 percent may be a good suggested amount but some people can afford much more than this, some people cannot even spare to give this.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
It is clear that this is going nowhere. I came for answers and honestly feel that they are not being addressed. I hope the ayat speak for themselves, not some gross mistranslation. Here I have seen one claim following the Prophet is shirk, another lie about the meaning of Kalam Allah, and other saddening things. I am leaving this discussion as it is spiritually dead. Reading around I have seen that many in this forum don't even prostrate to Allah! Those that think consuming alcohol is fine, etc.
Indeed you are cut off from much good. Yet you think you, a tiny fraction of mankind, are guided and we traditional Muslims are in misguidance! Not a single descendent of the Prophet is from your ranks. Think on that. Not a single one. Where are your scholars?
I am now leaving this discussion for ever. Wallahi alhamdu lillah that I am a Sunni Muslim with an established connection to the Prophet!
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Peace,
It is clear that this is going nowhere. I came for answers and honestly feel that they are not being addressed. I hope the ayat speak for themselves, not some gross mistranslation. Here I have seen one claim following the Prophet is shirk, another lie about the meaning of Kalam Allah, and other saddening things. I am leaving this discussion as it is spiritually dead. Reading around I have seen that many in this forum don't even prostrate to Allah! Those that think consuming alcohol is fine, etc.
Indeed you are cut off from much good. Yet you think you, a tiny fraction of mankind, are guided and we traditional Muslims are in misguidance! Not a single descendent of the Prophet is from your ranks. Think on that. Not a single one. Where are your scholars?
I am now leaving this discussion for ever. Wallahi alhamdu lillah that I am a Sunni Muslim with an established connection to the Prophet!
Sounds good. Good luck in all your endeavors.
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peace Isa,
Your questions came across as ill-thought, illogical and disingenuous, and that was even before I read you say "No linking other posts and sites either please."
I recommend the search function.
Failing that, please state your 5 strongest objections.
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Asalaamu alaykum
Has anyone on this forum ever had any formal or traditional instruction in Islam? Have any ever been scholars or students of knowledge (learning from teachers as part of a chain to the Prophet)? Is there anyone here from the Prophet's family, with an unbroken chain to their grandfather, the Beloved of Allah? Where is your connection to the Prophet?
Brother Isa, I have studied formally under Salafi, Hanafi and Shia-Jafari scholars. Have you studied Kalam from the lens of the Mutakallimeen? Or are you void of this knowledge?
Proof of this is Salah and Hajj and Zakat.
But not all believe that the Salah or Hajj are what you believe it to be. As I said before, the Kaaba, black stone, the devil's statue you stone, the way you shave your head and wear the ihram cloth, all of that is not from the Qur'an, it is from the Sunni Ahadith. These rituals are never given by Allah (swt) nor does Allah (swt) require these rituals for the Hajj to be complete. Hajj is simply a spiritual journey that involves brotherhood, unity, spirituality and wisdom. Salah is simply a form of meditation, worship and prayer. It is not limited to the Sunnah. Ibrahim (as) observed the Salat, but I seriously doubt that he (as) followed the rituals we find in Ahadith, where one goes up and down multiple times repeating words in Arabic, as if this process is all what Salat is. The spirit of the Salat as I said before is to connect with God and could involve simply sajood and no other posture if one wanted. It just you are so fixated on Islam being what the Ahadith describe instead of what the Qur'an says. If Allah (swt) Himself did not tell us how to pray, why should there be a question of 'how' in the first place? Shouldn't you just invoke God? Pray what's in your heart? If Allah (swt) tells you to make the pilgrimage, wouldn't it be to simply experience the brotherhood and discipline and wisdom found in that city? Or is the purpose of Hajj to perform specific rituals that God accepts?
And does one need to know how much to give for Zakat? Can't one just give what makes sense? No matter how much or how little it is, as long as its sincerely from the heart and makes sense to the person financially. If the Quran is not putting limits on what Salah or Hajj and Zakat is, then why are you?
In this ayah, Allah (swt) teaches the Believer to do wudhu
56 O ye who believe! when you stand up for Prayer, wash your faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and pass your wet hands over your heads, and wash your feet to the ankles. And if you be unclean, purify yourselves by bathing. And if you are ill or you are on a journey while unclean, or one of you comes from the privy or you have touched women, and you find not water, betake yourselves to pure dust and wipe therewith your faces and your hands. Allah desires not that He should place you in a difficulty, but He desires to purify you and to complete His favour upon you, so that you may be grateful.
How is it that Allah (swt) can teach us how to purify ourselves with ablution but not teach us how to pray in the Quran? And yet other brothers and sisters have shared many verses like these
Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?
And yet you claim that the book is not fully detailed because the details of how to pray or make the pilgrimage are not in the Quran?
My questions that I still would like an answer to are
- Do you agree that the Mu'tazilah and Jahmiyyah were schools of thought that predate any Hadith collection and that they were Quran only Muslims even after the Sunni Muhaditheen collected their Ahadith?
- Also according to 'our' ahadith he gave permission for it to be documented. How can you use an evidence that you don't understand?
Where in the Sunni Ahadith does it say the Prophet (sa) gave permission for his sayings or actions to be documented? I am aware of ahadith that say 'follow the sunnah', but none to his companions instructing them to document ahadith. I am not sure that the Ahadith instruct Muslims to indefinitely mimic his ways either ... does following 'tradition' mean to mimic his every move?
Wasalaam,
Farhan
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The next ayat continues with what exactly Allah has expounded
With all due respect... fail.
112 "That you shall serve none other than God. I am to you from Him a warner and a bearer of good news."
Note the - from Him. The 'fussilat' is from Him, the good news is from Him and so is the warning.
The Sunnah covers particulars that need clarifying.
Which is the crux of the issue. You refuse to ponder on these verses
1689 The day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. We have sent down to you the book as a clarification for all things, a guide, mercy and good tidings for those who have peacefully surrendered.
638 There is not a creature in the earth, or a bird that flies with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the book; then to their Lord they will be summoned
It seems you disbelieve in the above verses. Allah says He clarifies the quran and He left nothing out of it. Yet your claim is that there are details missing.
I must say that, although I admire your (all of you) dedication to the Qur'an, I lament your abandoning the Prophet and his Sunnah. No points raised here have convinced me that I should abandon the great blessings that are contained in the Sunnah.
That's fine, but I hope you're not under the impression that your arguments were any good. I believe this comment here pretty much sums up what the problem is
Has anyone on this forum ever had any formal or traditional instruction in Islam? Have any ever been scholars or students of knowledge (learning from teachers as part of a chain to the Prophet)? Is there anyone here from the Prophet's family, with an unbroken chain to their grandfather, the Beloved of Allah? Where is your connection to the Prophet?
Nothing from the above originates from the quran. And that is your problem.
