Traditional Sunni Challenge to Quranities
-
Allah said ''. It does not means 'source of law.' He also said ' '. Now then, mufassal is maf'ul (passive participle). Who then, other than the Beloved, is the active participle? Your Rabb tells you
Indeed, Allah repeatedly tells us to follow the Beloved in addition to Him. I posted many ayat about that if you care to read.
Wasalam,
Isa
Peace
One cannot follow the prophet whilst disobeying what God tells us in the other verses, such as
These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?
456
(٦Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt * The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient * If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess
6114-116
(٤ (٥ (٦You shall recite what is revealed to you of your Lord's scripture. Nothing shall abrogate His words, and you shall not find any other source beside it
1827
(٧What is wrong with your logic? * Do you have another book to uphold? * In it, do you find anything you want?
6836-38
(٦ (٧ (٨The only way to follow the prophet is if he were physically with us today to help us with any disputes we may have (459). I assume he would use the Quran to do this as I would imagine that he would followed the verses that I gave above. But how can you follow the prophet today? I mean if he was still with us today then we can hear his very words. But since that is not the case, how can we do what he tells us? By the hadiths? But how can we be sure if he really said those very words? People can easily make up a hadith and say that the prophet Mohammed said those words. Like we are told by God
We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications
(٢
Not only that, but someone honest recorded his very words, those words can become distorted over time by the very human and jinns described in 6112. There is much evidence of this if we read the hadiths. A lot of them either contradict the Quran or they contradict each other.
And then there are hadiths that give orders other than those in the Quran. Did the prophet Mohammed have the authority to do this? I think not...
A revelation from the Lord of the universe * Had he uttered any other teachings * We would have punished him * We would have stopped the revelations to him
6943-46
(٣ (٤ (٥ (٦Some would say that the hadiths just give extra details but isn't the Quran complete and detailed already? Saying otherwise is like calling God a liar!
Today, I have completed your religion
53
(3) ... ...
Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?
6114
(٤
The word of your Lord is complete
6115
(٥He has detailed for you what is prohibited for you
6119
(119) ...A scripture whose verses provide the complete details, in an Arabic Quran, for people who know
413
(٣We have given them a scripture that is fully detailed
(٢This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than GOD. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture
(٧Sorry to go off topic, but I just wanted to respond to this particular post.
Peace peace
-
Oh wait, there is a verse that tells us who has 'fussilat' the quran
111 ALR. A book whose signs have been ascertained, then detailed, from One who is Wise, Ever-aware.
That should tell you who is the one detailing and explaining the quran.
The next ayat continues with what exactly Allah has expounded
Tawhid is clearly established in the Qur'an by Allah and the Prophet did not need to elaborate. The Qur'an is full of it. It is the single most important message of the Qur'an and Allah made sure that there would be no doubt about it. All Prophets came with it and Tawhid has never changed, although ahkam have. The Qur'an is the Majestic Book of universals. The Sunnah covers particulars that need clarifying. Proof of this is Salah and Hajj and Zakat. Without hadith you don't know how to do it. You even reject the shahadah from what I have seen so far on this forum. That is the reason why Allah commands us to follow the Prophet in numerous ayat. Why would Allah repeat this on many occasions if otherwise?
I must say that, although I admire your (all of you) dedication to the Qur'an, I lament your abandoning the Prophet and his Sunnah. No points raised here have convinced me that I should abandon the great blessings that are contained in the Sunnah.
-
Peace,
Isa. The prophet recited the Quran that God gave him to the people with is own mouth. Following the prophet is following the Quran. And following the Quran is following God. To separate the prophet's God given teachings which he preached with his own sweat and blood is to be blind. The last prophet's teachings are the Quran and the Quran is from God. To obey God through following the prophet Muhammad is to follow the Quran, period. Stop separating the messenger from his message. We love him dearly as God's last prophet who's teachings were the Quran which God gave him. And he told us to love God and to follow him! And that is what we are doing. Peace and blessings be upon the last prophet and messenger of God!! And we Quranites will continue to uphold his teachings which he recieved from God, which he recited to the people to solve their disputes and to be a judge and a witness for them. He lives on through the Quran. He is why we all have the Quran. Because God taught HIM the book and he spoke and taught it to the people, and the people followed him, which means they followed his teachings THE QURAN. Stop this Hadeethy nonesense, of following these unfounded Ahadi RUMORS. Even a TRUE (not claimed) mutawaatir hadeeth (Mutawaatir on ALL levels of the chain!!) can have NO religious authority! The prophet taught us that his teaching was the Quran and that it is COMPLETE and FULLY DETAILED for our guidance. Anything not in it (even if it goes along with the Quran), IS NOT apart of the deen and is fard on NO Muslim. PERIOD! Take your Ahadi rumorous accounts somewhere else please. We don't need shakey rumors when we have the Quran which is not only the prophet's teaching and the word of God, but which is ALSO mutawaatir (i.e. historically authentic) on all levels, and the most authoritative of all mutawaatir sayings. Let the hadeeth be. Know them for linguitic reasons, learn mutawaatir/mutawaatir al-ma'any accounts for historical reasons, but free yourself of this rumor when it comes to your religion and your guidance. Follow the Quran alone. God has placed no hardship in the deen and he has made it simple. I pray twice a day (dawn and dusk included the parts of night approximate to both those times) and I establish al-kharru alaa al-adhqaani and rukoo'. The first is included in the second. So stand up to pray and then bow to the ground. Those are the only two movements needed for a normal prayer. Yes you may say there is disagreement in the Quranite community. But there isn't much more accordance in the rest of the Muslim world. That just comes with the terrority. People will understand things to the best of their ability or as they will. We must however remember that laa ikraaha feedeeni and even in the case of what we may see as kufr, lakum deenukum wa liya deeni. That is the sunnah/Uswah of the last prophet, directly from the Quran. Go in peace.
Godbless,
Anwar -
You shall recite what is revealed to you of your Lord's scripture. Nothing shall abrogate His words, and you shall not find any other source beside it
1827
(٧- This does not translate as you have put it. Which words from the ayah do you take to mean 'any other source beside it?' Why? Seek forgiveness from Allah for twisting the meaning of His Words for your own nafs.
What is wrong with your logic? * Do you have another book to uphold? * In it, do you find anything you want?
6836-38
(٦ (٧ (٨- Where is the word 'logic' in this ayah? Where is 'another' and 'to behold?' Stop messing with Kalam Allah! Do you know any Arabic at all?
The science of hadith was established to defend and preserve the Prophet's Sunnah. Look into it. It is one of the greatest intellectual achievements in human history. If you had any grounding in hadith you would know that we say that hadith can never abrogate the Qur'an. Hadith are rejected if they oppose the Qur'an. Very few indeed are those who argued otherwise.
A revelation from the Lord of the universe * Had he uttered any other teachings * We would have punished him * We would have stopped the revelations to him
6943-46
(٣ (٤ (٥ (٦- Where does it say 'teachings' or 'punished' or 'stopped revelations'? Where did you get these translations from. It is clear you are not aware of what you are saying. Do you know Arabic? The same goes for the rest of what you mistranslate or misrepresent from Allah.
Has anyone on this forum ever had any formal or traditional instruction in Islam? Have any ever been scholars or students of knowledge (learning from teachers as part of a chain to the Prophet)? Is there anyone here from the Prophet's family, with an unbroken chain to their grandfather, the Beloved of Allah? Where is your connection to the Prophet?
-
Peace,
We are to perfom the hajj using the rituals al-'umrah. Hajj is the visit to house to perfrom al-umrah.
It can be seen in the hadeeth and in the Quran that the umrah at the hajj is no more than the above quote from lisaanul-arab 'All of the umrah is to circle the house and to go between safaa and marwah. Nothing more, nothing less. The rest of what we should do there besides umrah and going during the months for it are quite detailed in the Quran. No more no less than what is already there in the Quran. Zakaat means purity or betterment in Classical Arabic and in the Quran, not the contrived theological meaning of a poor tax. If you mean zakaat in the from of our giving saduqah then we are to give what we do not need and to give to our family, the one in the street and those in need. The Quran uses the term al-'afwu. There is no defined percent or amount. That is the Quran, whether you like it or not. 2.5 percent may be a good suggested amount but some people can afford much more than this, some people cannot even spare to give this.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
It is clear that this is going nowhere. I came for answers and honestly feel that they are not being addressed. I hope the ayat speak for themselves, not some gross mistranslation. Here I have seen one claim following the Prophet is shirk, another lie about the meaning of Kalam Allah, and other saddening things. I am leaving this discussion as it is spiritually dead. Reading around I have seen that many in this forum don't even prostrate to Allah! Those that think consuming alcohol is fine, etc.
Indeed you are cut off from much good. Yet you think you, a tiny fraction of mankind, are guided and we traditional Muslims are in misguidance! Not a single descendent of the Prophet is from your ranks. Think on that. Not a single one. Where are your scholars?
I am now leaving this discussion for ever. Wallahi alhamdu lillah that I am a Sunni Muslim with an established connection to the Prophet!
-
Peace,
It is clear that this is going nowhere. I came for answers and honestly feel that they are not being addressed. I hope the ayat speak for themselves, not some gross mistranslation. Here I have seen one claim following the Prophet is shirk, another lie about the meaning of Kalam Allah, and other saddening things. I am leaving this discussion as it is spiritually dead. Reading around I have seen that many in this forum don't even prostrate to Allah! Those that think consuming alcohol is fine, etc.
Indeed you are cut off from much good. Yet you think you, a tiny fraction of mankind, are guided and we traditional Muslims are in misguidance! Not a single descendent of the Prophet is from your ranks. Think on that. Not a single one. Where are your scholars?
I am now leaving this discussion for ever. Wallahi alhamdu lillah that I am a Sunni Muslim with an established connection to the Prophet!
Sounds good. Good luck in all your endeavors.
-
peace Isa,
Your questions came across as ill-thought, illogical and disingenuous, and that was even before I read you say "No linking other posts and sites either please."
I recommend the search function.
Failing that, please state your 5 strongest objections.
-
Asalaamu alaykum
Has anyone on this forum ever had any formal or traditional instruction in Islam? Have any ever been scholars or students of knowledge (learning from teachers as part of a chain to the Prophet)? Is there anyone here from the Prophet's family, with an unbroken chain to their grandfather, the Beloved of Allah? Where is your connection to the Prophet?
Brother Isa, I have studied formally under Salafi, Hanafi and Shia-Jafari scholars. Have you studied Kalam from the lens of the Mutakallimeen? Or are you void of this knowledge?
Proof of this is Salah and Hajj and Zakat.
But not all believe that the Salah or Hajj are what you believe it to be. As I said before, the Kaaba, black stone, the devil's statue you stone, the way you shave your head and wear the ihram cloth, all of that is not from the Qur'an, it is from the Sunni Ahadith. These rituals are never given by Allah (swt) nor does Allah (swt) require these rituals for the Hajj to be complete. Hajj is simply a spiritual journey that involves brotherhood, unity, spirituality and wisdom. Salah is simply a form of meditation, worship and prayer. It is not limited to the Sunnah. Ibrahim (as) observed the Salat, but I seriously doubt that he (as) followed the rituals we find in Ahadith, where one goes up and down multiple times repeating words in Arabic, as if this process is all what Salat is. The spirit of the Salat as I said before is to connect with God and could involve simply sajood and no other posture if one wanted. It just you are so fixated on Islam being what the Ahadith describe instead of what the Qur'an says. If Allah (swt) Himself did not tell us how to pray, why should there be a question of 'how' in the first place? Shouldn't you just invoke God? Pray what's in your heart? If Allah (swt) tells you to make the pilgrimage, wouldn't it be to simply experience the brotherhood and discipline and wisdom found in that city? Or is the purpose of Hajj to perform specific rituals that God accepts?
And does one need to know how much to give for Zakat? Can't one just give what makes sense? No matter how much or how little it is, as long as its sincerely from the heart and makes sense to the person financially. If the Quran is not putting limits on what Salah or Hajj and Zakat is, then why are you?
In this ayah, Allah (swt) teaches the Believer to do wudhu
56 O ye who believe! when you stand up for Prayer, wash your faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and pass your wet hands over your heads, and wash your feet to the ankles. And if you be unclean, purify yourselves by bathing. And if you are ill or you are on a journey while unclean, or one of you comes from the privy or you have touched women, and you find not water, betake yourselves to pure dust and wipe therewith your faces and your hands. Allah desires not that He should place you in a difficulty, but He desires to purify you and to complete His favour upon you, so that you may be grateful.
How is it that Allah (swt) can teach us how to purify ourselves with ablution but not teach us how to pray in the Quran? And yet other brothers and sisters have shared many verses like these
Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?
And yet you claim that the book is not fully detailed because the details of how to pray or make the pilgrimage are not in the Quran?
My questions that I still would like an answer to are
- Do you agree that the Mu'tazilah and Jahmiyyah were schools of thought that predate any Hadith collection and that they were Quran only Muslims even after the Sunni Muhaditheen collected their Ahadith?
- Also according to 'our' ahadith he gave permission for it to be documented. How can you use an evidence that you don't understand?
Where in the Sunni Ahadith does it say the Prophet (sa) gave permission for his sayings or actions to be documented? I am aware of ahadith that say 'follow the sunnah', but none to his companions instructing them to document ahadith. I am not sure that the Ahadith instruct Muslims to indefinitely mimic his ways either ... does following 'tradition' mean to mimic his every move?
Wasalaam,
Farhan
-
The next ayat continues with what exactly Allah has expounded
With all due respect... fail.
112 "That you shall serve none other than God. I am to you from Him a warner and a bearer of good news."
Note the - from Him. The 'fussilat' is from Him, the good news is from Him and so is the warning.
The Sunnah covers particulars that need clarifying.
Which is the crux of the issue. You refuse to ponder on these verses
1689 The day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. We have sent down to you the book as a clarification for all things, a guide, mercy and good tidings for those who have peacefully surrendered.
638 There is not a creature in the earth, or a bird that flies with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the book; then to their Lord they will be summoned
It seems you disbelieve in the above verses. Allah says He clarifies the quran and He left nothing out of it. Yet your claim is that there are details missing.
I must say that, although I admire your (all of you) dedication to the Qur'an, I lament your abandoning the Prophet and his Sunnah. No points raised here have convinced me that I should abandon the great blessings that are contained in the Sunnah.
That's fine, but I hope you're not under the impression that your arguments were any good. I believe this comment here pretty much sums up what the problem is
Has anyone on this forum ever had any formal or traditional instruction in Islam? Have any ever been scholars or students of knowledge (learning from teachers as part of a chain to the Prophet)? Is there anyone here from the Prophet's family, with an unbroken chain to their grandfather, the Beloved of Allah? Where is your connection to the Prophet?
Nothing from the above originates from the quran. And that is your problem.
-
Also, you lack common debate etiquette.
Indeed.
I always find it interesting that those who claim to be more pious / guided / knowledgeable than others are often not willing or able to engage in a discussion properly, intelligently and with good manners. hmm -
Indeed you are cut off from much good. Yet you think you, a tiny fraction of mankind, are guided and we traditional Muslims are in misguidance!
Salaam,
Like most muslims out there, you too are making the same mistake. You believe Allah's path is always that which the majority follow. I've got news for u from the Holy Quraan.Satan said, "Since You have honored him over me, if You respite me till the Day of Resurrection, I will possess ALL HIS DESCENDANTS, EXCEPT A FEW."
Tat should clear your mind. If not, you could read some more clarifying suras...
- Allah's true submitters & believers have always been a minority throughout history. (12103-106)
- Only 'TWO' believers where there in the whole community of Moses (520-26)
- Only 'ONE' house of believers in the whole community of Lot (5132-36)
- Only 'FEW' believers among the disciples of Jesus (352)
Hopefully in future, you won't judge believers based on their numbers.
I am now leaving this discussion for ever. Wallahi alhamdu lillah that I am a Sunni Muslim with an established connection to the Prophet!
Congratulations. Before you party regarding the "connection", please keep the sura in mind where the Prophet will sever all connections
"My Lord, MY PEOPLE have deserted this Quran."
Good luck.
-
Dear Issa,
I am now leaving this discussion for ever. Wallahi alhamdu lillah that I am a Sunni Muslim with an established connection to the Prophet!
Why ask questions when you are not ready to face the answers that they may bring?
This thread is yours...yet, as soon as some people took your questions seriously, you backed off saying you are leaving and will stick to following he ways of polytheism that are guaranteed to admit you to Hell
If you want to seriously disucuss the teachings of God and His peophet...Then this is the place.
If you want to find sheep who will follow th sheperds that will lead them to Hell...Then you are indeed in the wrong place.
P.S. Don't get too excited in following the decendants of the Prophet, for, not only did God ensure that his progeny ended with him (Prophet did not have any sons) - but also, the examples of the evil and vile creatures who claim to be affiliated to the prophet from the Shite Turbans to the turncoat kings who murder people for the throne leaves much to be desired!
-
Wallahi alhamdu lillah that I am a Sunni Muslim with an established connection to the Prophet!
rotfl wow you're so arrogant. one can only laugh. good luck on worshipping your forefathers. There are so many verses in the Quran to quote from that talk about people who only follow their fathers that I don't know which to choose from. Well you would only reject them anyway and tell me 'do you even know Arabic', which I do btw.
Anyway, we've all done our bit here and gave you verses to look at. The only reason you don't have answers is because they're no the answers you're looking for.
-
@Mutazilaah (Farhan) and everyone,
Assalamu Alaikum.Why would Allah mention the Messenger if we should only follow the Qur'an? <
Allah (swt) has mentioned many Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc. They served their purpose. His duty was but to deliver the message, to deliver the warning, and he (sa) did.
- You are right, Allah (swt) has mentioned many Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc.
but can you mention any example where Allah commanded us to follow the mentioned {{Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc.}}???
Allah did it only in the case of Muhammad (SM).
1-a) Allah's command to follow Muhammad (sm) is so strict that HE tagged our love for him with whether we follow Muhammad (sm) {{331 Say, "If you love God then follow me so God will love you and forgive your sins." God is Forgiver, Compassionate.}}---Translated by Edip-Layth.
This ayat indicates that if we do not follow Muhammad (sm), then that will make the meaning that WE DO NOT LOVE ALLAH. In other words, If we say that we love Allah, but do not follow Muhammad (sm), then our "love" is not real love, and will not be granted to Allah.
1-b) Moreover, Allah made it a condition for guidance {{2454>> If you obey him, you will be guided}}. The indication is clear. If you do not follow Muhammad (sm), you will not be guided.
Is there any other Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc., whom Allah has commanded us to follow? And is there any other Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc., with whom Allah has tagged His love, or guidance ?
- In some ayats, you are right, Allah told Muhammad (SM) to deliver the message only {{320>>but if they turn away, then you are only to deliver}}, or {{599>>The only duty of the messenger is to deliver}}
but
there are some ayats which clearly indicates the necessity of an explanation of the ayats mentioned just above. Some of them are
2-a) 2454 Say ?Obey God, and obey the messenger.? But if they turn away, then he is only responsible for his obligation, and you are responsible for your obligations. If you obey him, you will be guided. The messenger is only required to deliver clearly.
Please, listen, I am not talking about {{If you obey him, you will be guided}}.
I am talking about the last portion of the ayat, The messenger is only required to deliver clearly.
His duty will not be accomplished only by delivering the message like a BIRD THAT CAN TALK, he also has to make the message clear.
2-b) Another ayat that brings the issue in the same manner
1644 With clear signs ( ) and Books (ِ (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (َ(the Quran), that you may explain clearly (َ to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.2-c) Let us discuss a portion of an end note, in this context, provided in Quran A Reformist Translation by Edip-Layth.
Edip-Layth - End Note 7 (1644)
The Arabic word BaYaNa means (1) explain an ambiguous message; or (2) declare a
hidden message. This multiple-meaning verse is one of the most abused verses by
the followers of hadith hearsay. They choose the first meaning. Their rendering,
however, contradicts many verses of the Quran the Quran is explained not by
Muhammad, but by its author, God Himself (7519). Thus it is described as a
"clarified/explained book" (515; 121; 26195; 446), and we are reminded over and
over that it is "easy to understand" (5417,22,32,40). Thus, the second alternative
is the intended meaning, since the Quran was received by Muhammad in a private
session called revelation, and his job was to deliver and declare the message he
received. God orders Muhammad to proclaim the revelation which is revealed to
him personally. Indeed, this is the whole mission of the messengers (1635).
Thus, the word "litubayyena" of 1644 is similar to the one in 3187. Verse 3187 tells
us that the people who received the revelation should "proclaim the scripture to the
people, and never conceal it." See 2159,160; 3187 and 1664. For a comparative
discussion on verse 1644, see the Sample Comparisons section in the Introduction.
The Quran is simple to understand (5411). _____________________________________________________________________2-c-i) This explanation is very nice to read. But I have got another verse, 1682, where, the translation given by Edip-Layth is 1682 So if they turn away, then you are only required to deliver clearly.
confused confused confused
And another ayath translated by Edip-Layth,
confused confused confused confused confused confused
2-c-ii) It seems that Quran A Reformist Translation itself has used the first meaning without sensing any contradiction with any other verses of Quran.
2-c-iii) Actually, there is no contradiction in using the first meaning of the Arabic word BaYaNa.
Let me explain.About contradiction with 7519 (Then it is for Us to clarify it), and "clarified/explained book" (515; 121; 26195; 446), easy to understand (5417,22,32,40)
This ayats mean that Allah has explained the Quran by demonstrating the whole quran in the real life of a human, who is like us. So, when this "human" is doing something in front of the people as to complying with the "WAHY" of Allah, this becomes a "making clear" thing for those people. In this way, Allah has cleared and explained everything of Quran, and Muhammad (SM) has made clear, ofcourse with the continuous guidance of Allah.
So both are correct. Allah has explained the ayats by implementing the ayats in the real life of a human, who is like us.. And Muhammad (sm) has explained the ayats by complying with the WAHY under continuous guidance of Allah.
About contradiction with the ayath 5411
In the End Note 7 (1644) by Edip-Lath regarding the Ayath 1644, Edip-Layth says that {{The Quran is simple to understand (5411)}}
But what does 5411 say? 5411 So We opened the gates of the sky with pouring water.hmm; I don't know what he meant by that.
Summary
-
Allah (swt) has mentioned many Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc. but Allah commanded to follow ONLY MUHAMMAD (SM). NO ONE ELSE. Allah's love and guidance are conditionally tagged with following only Muhammad (sm).
-
Allah told Muhammad (SM) to deliver the message only and make them clear. Or, in other words, Allah told Muhammad (SM) to clearly deliver the message. See the translation of Edip-Layth of the ayaths 1682, and 592.
And, most importantly, there is no contradiction of "the command of delivering message clearly or making the message clear" with 7519 (Then it is for Us to clarify it), "clarified/explained book" (515; 121; 26195; 446), or easy to understand (5417,22,32,40).
Slam to all.
- You are right, Allah (swt) has mentioned many Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc.
-
Saalam,
but can you mention any example where Allah commanded us to follow the mentioned {{Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc.}}???
Allah did it only in the case of Muhammad (SM).
368 The closest people to Abraham are those who followed him, this prophet, and those who acknowledged; and God is the ally of those who acknowledge.
16123 Then We inspired to you "You shall follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of those who set up partners."
1-a) Allah's command to follow Muhammad (sm) is so strict that HE tagged our love for him with whether we follow Muhammad (sm) {{331 Say, "If you love God then follow me so God will love you and forgive your sins." God is Forgiver, Compassionate.}}---Translated by Edip-Layth.
This ayat indicates that if we do not follow Muhammad (sm), then that will make the meaning that WE DO NOT LOVE ALLAH. In other words, If we say that we love Allah, but do not follow Muhammad (sm), then our "love" is not real love, and will not be granted to Allah.
Correct. No one disputes this. The problem is that you believe Muhammad taught something other than the quran which you are required to follow. We follow exactly what he gave us the kitab.
1-b) Moreover, Allah made it a condition for guidance {{2454>> If you obey him, you will be guided}}. The indication is clear. If you do not follow Muhammad (sm), you will not be guided.
And what was the prophet commanding?
548 We have sent down to you the book with truth, authenticating what is present of the book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, a structure. Had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you, so advance the good deeds. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.
549 You should rule among them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their wishes, and beware lest they divert you away from some of what God has sent down to you. If they turn away, then know that God wants to inflict them with some of their sins. Indeed, many among the people are corrupt.
Is there any other Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc., whom Allah has commanded us to follow? And is there any other Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc., with whom Allah has tagged His love, or guidance ?
You are trying to insinuate a point that's simply not there in the quran. You are commanded to follow Muhammad because he had the message. What's wrong, do you not like the message he came with? Is there something wrong with it?
but
there are some ayats which clearly indicates the necessity of an explanation of the ayats mentioned just above. Some of them are
2-a) 2454 Say ?Obey God, and obey the messenger.? But if they turn away, then he is only responsible for his obligation, and you are responsible for your obligations. If you obey him, you will be guided. The messenger is only required to deliver clearly.
Please, listen, I am not talking about {{If you obey him, you will be guided}}.
I am talking about the last portion of the ayat, The messenger is only required to deliver clearly.
The message is clear. Unless you're claiming the quran is unclear? Be open and admit it and don't beat around the bush. Tell us 2454 is saying that the quran is not clear so the prophet was commanded to make it clear.
Actually, you've admitted it here
This ayats mean that Allah has explained the Quran by demonstrating the whole quran in the real life of a human, who is like us. So, when this "human" is doing something in front of the people as to complying with the "WAHY" of Allah, this becomes a "making clear" thing for those people. In this way, Allah has cleared and explained everything of Quran, and Muhammad (SM) has made clear, ofcourse with the continuous guidance of Allah.
And, most importantly, there is no contradiction of "the command of delivering message clearly or making the message clear" with 7519 (Then it is for Us to clarify it), "clarified/explained book" (515; 121; 26195; 446), or easy to understand (5417,22,32,40).
Your tafsir is conjecture from your own mind. You wish to complicate a very simple message. You've managed to manufacture a contradiction and resolve it with another contradiction. The messenger was commanded to deliver the message clearly. The clarity was given by Allah.
Observe
6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?" Those to whom We have given the book know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
Note the word mufassal.
111 ALR. A book whose signs have been ascertained, then detailed, from One who is Wise, Ever-aware.
Note the word fussilat.
Is the quran muffasal? Yes. Who was the one that did fussilat of it? Allah.
Any clarity provided by the Prophet was not his own. He clarfied the quran with the quran.
-
Saalam,
368 The closest people to Abraham are those who followed him, this prophet, and those who acknowledged; and God is the ally of those who acknowledge.
16123 Then We inspired to you "You shall follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of those who set up partners."
Salam. Was this in reply to my question {{but can you mention any example where Allah commanded us to follow the mentioned {{Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc.}}???}}???
It, however, astonished me. Please show me the command to us to follow Abraham. Is this a COMMAND for you to follow?
Please try to understand, is this a command that you must follow??? "To follow Muhammad (sm)" is a direct order. And with that order was tagged the question of whether you love Allah (and subsequently Allah loves you), and whether you shall get guidance.
There is no other Prophet or Messenger whom you have been commanded to follow, and with whom your guidance and love for Allah is related.
Correct. No one disputes this. The problem is that you believe Muhammad taught something other than the quran which you are required to follow. We follow exactly what he gave us the kitab.
- Brother, imagine the period when the ayath of following Muhammad (sm) was revealed. The ayats were already written, and already memorized by the Sahabas. In this time, Allah is revealing, that, they have to follow Muhammad (sm). And observe carefully the language
a) 331 Say, If you love God then follow me so God will love you and forgive your sins
b) 2454 If you obey him, you will be guided
c) 480 Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed God
Suppose, you are one of the Sahaba. What would you do in reply to these ayats? Look at your comment
You are trying to insinuate a point that's simply not there in the quran. You are commanded to follow Muhammad because he had the message. What's wrong, do you not like the message he came with? Is there something wrong with it?
The message is clear. Unless you're claiming the quran is unclear? Be open and admit it and don't beat around the bush. Tell us 2454 is saying that the quran is not clear so the prophet was commanded to make it clear.
If you were a Sahabi, then a question was very easy to be raised Why HIM? Why not quran? You are Arab by born (letting that you are a Sahabi), why should you be commanded to follow someone else who is just a human? and since quran is very simple to understand, why are you not commanded to follow just-Quran?
I am asking you the same question now. Please you cogitate for the answer. I can help you with some indication Quran itself is not actually clear. Allah has made the Ayaths clear by implementing the Ayats in the life of Muhammad (sm). So, associated with the life of Muhammad (sm), the Ayaths are offcourse clear.
I repeat...The Ayats are clear only when these are associated with the life of Muhammad (sm). That's why Allah says
2454 If you obey him, you will be guided
480 Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed God
- A further discussion on your following comment
Correct. No one disputes this. The problem is that you believe Muhammad taught something other than the quran which you are required to follow. We follow exactly what he gave us the kitab.
Actually, this is what I can derive from Quran. Let me explain
2-a) You know the ayat
7203>> Say, "I only follow what is inspired to me (ى from my Lord.
So, whatever Muhammad (sm) did was the result of following WAHY.2-b) For your kind information, there is no ayat that states that Muhammad (sm) was bounded to follow nothing other than QURAN. Yes, he was bounded to follow nothing other than WAHY, according to the ayath 7203.
If you can prove that WAHY=QURAN, only then can you say that {{Muhammad (sm) was bounded to follow only Quran, and nothing other than that}}. But, can you prove that?
But I can prove the reverse thing. I mean, I can prove that WAHY is not equal to QURAN.
Let me explain.....
2-b-i) 2456 Hold the contact prayer (Salat) and contribute towards betterment(Zakat), and obey the messenger, that you may attain mercy.There is no detailed description of Salat (for example) in the Quran. You admit that.
Now, whatever the actual meaning of Salat be, Muhammad (sm) must have obeyed the Ayath.
But while obeying the command related to the Salat, Muhammad (sm) must have done something. Quran does not contain any description about Salat. But please be informed that Muhammad (sm) cannot do anything other than permission from Allah. So, Allah must have told him something about how to perform the "Salat", but that is not included in the Quran.
(You can derive many many example like this if you think. But will you think?)
Now, check whether I am right, WAHY=QURAN+Something not included in the QURAN.
So, It is proved that WAHY is not equal to QURAN.
Now go to the Ayat that commands to follow Muhammad (sm). Now it means that
Following Muhammad (sm)
= Following WAHY
= Following (QURAN+Something not included in the QURAN)
= Following QURAN+ Following something not included in the Quran
If Allah says that you must obey the messenger to get Allah's love (in return of your love for Allah) and Guidance, HE actually says that you must follow Muhammad (sm) in full, comprising of What he gave to us as a book, and what he did and said, not included in the QURAN.
Did anybody/any ayath say that there is no WAHY other than QURAN?
But, see, common sense logic says that there must be some thing not included in the QURAN.But, is it only common sense that say such thing? Isn't there any ayath that can confirm us about this?
Please continue reading
2-b-ii)
Translated by Muhammad Asad
87 And, lo, God gave you the promise ( ) that one of the two hosts would fall to you and you would have liked to seize the less powerful one, whereas it was God's will to prove the truth to be true in accordance with His words, and to wipe out the last remnant of those who denied the truth.Here, is an time-adverb clearly indicating a promise by Allah given in some past. My point is nowhere in the QURAN will you get any sign of this promise. It means that this promise was given by Allah through WAHY (of course), which was not included in the QURAN.
2-b-iii)
Translated by Edip-Layth
89 You implored your Lord and He answered you "I will provide you with one thousand angels as defenders."It means at some point of time, Allah answered to a the Messenger's request. That answer must have been in as an WAHY. But that particular answer was not recorded in the QURAN. This ayat is recalling the past event. Nowhere in the QURAN shall you get any other ayat containing the answer.
It means a very simple thing, that is, Muhammad (sm) received WAHY, aportion of which was not included in the QURAN.
2-b-iv)
Translated by Rashad Khalifa
663
The prophet had trusted some of his wives with a certain statement, then one of them spread it, and GOD let him know about it. He then informed his wife of part of the issue, and disregarded part. She asked him, "Who informed you of this?" He said, "I was informed by the Omniscient, Most Cognizant."The WAHY through which Muhammad (sm) was informed by Allah was not recorded in the QURAN. Now Allah is just making him recall the past event.
All these ayats indicate clearly that Muhammad (sm) received some WAHY that is not recorded in the QURAN. It means that Muhammad (sm) received some WAHY other than QURAN. The portion of WAHY not included in the QURAN must includes the guidance from Allah regarding various Hukums of Allah that are not elaborately described in the QURAN.
Now go to the Ayat that commands to follow Muhammad (sm). Now it means that
Following Muhammad (sm)
= Following WAHY
= Following (QURAN+Something not included in the QURAN)
= Following QURAN+ Following something not included in the Quran
If Allah says that you must obey the messenger to get Allah's love (in return of your love for Allah) and Guidance, HE actually says that you must follow Muhammad (sm) in full, comprising of What he gave to us as a book, and what he did and said (as guided by Allah, see 7203), not included in the QURAN.
Observe
6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?" Those to whom We have given the book know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
Note the word mufassal.
111 ALR. A book whose signs have been ascertained, then detailed, from One who is Wise, Ever-aware.
Note the word fussilat.
Is the quran muffasal? Yes. Who was the one that did fussilat of it? Allah.
Any clarity provided by the Prophet was not his own. He clarfied the quran with the quran.
I agree with you. But can you tell me where did you get the point {{He clarfied the quran with the quran.}}
If you say that it is ONLY ALLAH who can detail the quran perfectly through WAHY. Yes, of course. I agree. And I just say and already proved that not all the WAHY was included in the QURAN and that the expounding of the QURAN was in the real life of Muhammad (sm). That's why Allah, again and again telling us to follow the messenger.
Please, provide me one, JUST one ayat that clearly says that {{He clarfied the quran with the quran.}}
- Brother, imagine the period when the ayath of following Muhammad (sm) was revealed. The ayats were already written, and already memorized by the Sahabas. In this time, Allah is revealing, that, they have to follow Muhammad (sm). And observe carefully the language
-
From http//www.quran434.com/study-method.html
482 - anything from God will not have contradiction/inconsistency/variance. This also applies to our understanding as well. If we formulate a correct interpretation of The Quran, we will find that everything falls into place. This is one of the most crucial criteria.
734-5 - in order to receive a weighty or profound word or saying, we need to arrange the likenesses in The Quran, e.g. cross-reference concepts/words/topics.
123, 1854, 1789, 7176, 12111 - look to its internal examples, stories within it give us lessons, it is a clarification for all things.
251, 2185, 6114-115 - it is the criterion with which to determine/judge.
3927-29 - variance rejected, no crookedness, one consistent source is the preference.
Say "Indeed, I do not possess for you harm nor right-guidance."
