Surah-like-it challenge has been met..?
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Greetings all,
a friend of mine has the following theorySurah-like-it challenge has been met
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Quran not protected against tampering
The quranic surah-like-it challenge has been met when some 530 years ago the first scriptures of Sikhism 'appeared' in muslim-ruled/influenced Punjab territory and proved to be special enough to engage people (both muslims and hindus, who thus became ex-muslims and ex-hindus) in declaring them Divinely Inspired and thus giving rise to a new religion that in the past 500+ years have attracted some 22 million pious believers and still is growing.
The quranic surah-like-it challenge has been met yet another time when in the mid-nineteenth century the first scriptures leading to the modern Baha? faith 'appeared' in muslim-ruled Persia. Again these scriptures were considered Divinely Inspired by some muslims (who thus became ex-muslims) and proved special enough to form the basis of yet another new post-islam religion that has now some 5 million pious followers and still is growing.
Thus the quranic sura-like-it challenge has been met at least two times in the past 1400 years, giving rise to two new post-islam religions, each with their own sacred scriptures, considered Divinely Inspired (and apparently 'more special' than the Quran) by its followers. (However, no muslim will and can ever admit the quranic challenge has been met, for when he does that he no longer is a muslim but an apostate.... And the fact that both Sikhs and Baha?'s at times have been/are being persecuted (and sometimes even killed) by muslims says enough... )
Likewise, the islamic claim that the Quran is protected from corruption / tampering / altering has been proven moot now that there is in fact a 'corrupted' version of the Quran published and both physically (book) and virtually (internet) present on the face of the earth AND used by a growing group of muslims as Divine Guidance. I'm talking about Rashad Khalifa's version of the Quran in which he omitted verses 128 & 129 of chapter 9. (Khalifa was killed in 1990 after he was declared an apostate for publishing his version of the Quran).
Any thoughts?
thanks
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Peace be upon you,
The word "surah" means structure.
We are asked if we are able to bring a structure like the one outlined in the reading.
Since the structure of the reading(quran) is based on truth, there is no other stucture that can stand up to this system (deen) of life.
It is not about bringing a "chapter" of anything.
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Peace be upon you,
The word "surah" means structure.The challenge is to mimic the Koran mathematical structure. "Bring a 'structure' like it." In Arabic the Koran has a remarkable mathematical structure, GOD is simply challenging those who deny the Koran to produce one like it.
The Koran doesn?t challenge deniers to mimic just content, but the remarkable mathematical structure. That is why God say, "one verse" or "one chapter". It is easy to mimic a verse content, write similar scientific truths, or wisdom, but to structure it like the Koran mathematical system is impossible. For example, to mimic the mathematical structure of the Bismillah verses or Al-Fatiah is impossible and have yet to be done.
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Peace be upon you,
The challenge is to mimic the Koran mathematical structure. "Bring a 'structure' like it." In Arabic the Koran has a remarkable mathematical structure, GOD is simply challenging those who deny the Koran to produce one like it.
What mathematical structure?
The Koran doesn?t challenge deniers to mimic just content, but the remarkable mathematical structure. That is why God say, "one verse" or "one chapter".
The God said to bring "one structure" (like a government), or a "sign" (ayat). He did not say bring one chapter or verse.
It is easy to mimic a verse content, write similar scientific truths, or wisdom
You are not thinking this through, if someone "mimics" it they are just bringing the same thing, not a different thing. In order to bring something different, you would have to bring something false, and a structure built on falsehood is bound to perish.
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but to structure it like the Koran mathematical system is impossible. For example, to mimic the mathematical structure of the Bismillah verses or Al-Fatiah is impossible and have yet to be done.Thats ridiculous. "thier number" (19) is a TRIAL for the disbelievers.
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What mathematical structure?
dont be ridiculos. everyone know the Koran is mathematically structured
The God said to bring "one structure" (like a government), or a "sign" (ayat). He did not say bring one chapter or verse.
you are simply translating "ayat" as sign, but it also mean "verse". plus you are translating "surah" as "one structure" but you kow it also mean "chapter" by defintion.
You are not thinking this through, if someone "mimics" it they are just bringing the same thing, not a different thing. In order to bring something different, you would have to bring something false, and a structure built on falsehood is bound to perish.
the verse says "like" it. mimic it! (1788 )
Thats ridiculous. "thier number" (19) is a TRIAL for the disbelievers.
"The number" not 'their.'
It is a trial and will increase the faithful in faith! (7431) The koran mathematically 'structure' (surah) bring benefits to believers and is impossible to mimic. -
Peace be upon you SHM,
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What mathematical structure?dont be ridiculos. everyone know the Koran is mathematically structured
Is that including verse 9128-129?
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The God said to bring "one structure" (like a government), or a "sign" (ayat). He did not say bring one chapter or verse.you are simply translating "ayat" as sign, but it also mean "verse". plus you are translating "surah" as "one structure" but you kow it also mean "chapter" by defintion.
The God defines the words in his book as sign and structure, bring me another verse that proves the definitions you bring.
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You are not thinking this through, if someone "mimics" it they are just bringing the same thing, not a different thing. In order to bring something different, you would have to bring something false, and a structure built on falsehood is bound to perish.the verse says "like" it. mimic it! (1788 )
Yes, similar to it. Tell me what one would have to do to meet the challenge accoring to you.
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Thats ridiculous. "thier number" (19) is a TRIAL for the disbelievers."The number" not 'their.'
AAiddatahum = thier number. It is referring to the number of the malaika.
It is a trial and will increase the faithful in faith! (7431) The koran mathematically 'structure' (surah) bring benefits to believers and is impossible to mimic.
It is a TRIAL for the those without faith. Tell me what one would have to do to meet the challenge as understood by you. Would they have to just bring one verse?
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Idolfree
i dont want to get into the miracle debate but stick with the issue of the chanllenge presented in the verse. Is it the mathematical sturuture or the deen of life (submission)
you are simply translating "ayat" as sign, but it also mean "verse". plus you are translating "surah" as "one structure" but you kow it also mean "chapter" by defintion.
The God defines the words in his book as sign and structure, bring me another verse that proves the definitions you bring.
read the verse carefully the messenger is comanded to say!
Say, "If all the humans and all the jinns banded together in order to produce a Quran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another."
The challenge was not directed to the content of the book, BUT THE BOOK ITSELF. Remember God he reveals the Koran, an Arabic Koran. Also he isolates the guidance from the book. Why? (1) The Koran as a book is in Arabic. (122) and (2) The guidance is not limited to language (4144). In the Koran, the challenge had NOTHING to do with the religion of submission, but the book. That is why ayat is translated as verse because of the context of verse 1788 referring to a book, not a religion. And that?s why ?surah? is translated as ?chapter? because of the context of verse 1788 referencing a book, not a way of life.
Yes, similar to it. Tell me what one would have to do to meet the challenge accoring to you.
It is clear the challenge is to produce a book like this Koran, meaning to write a book like the Koran. To 'produce' a book like it means to have the book posses all the qualities of the Koran including (1) great guidance, wisdom, and truths (2) great mathematically structure and (3) posses the linguistic harmony and rhythm.
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Peace be upon you SHM,
Say, "If the humans and the jinns banded together in order to produce a reading like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another."
The God is showing us that there is no way that the human and jinn could bring another TRUTH. If someone brought a book that had only one sentence which was, "there is no God but the God", that would be the truth and not contradictory, therefore it is the God's reading(quran). The word "quran" only means reading, it does not limit the truth to one book. This reading(quran) that we study from is complete in its guidance, but guidance can be found in other places, which is why there will be people of all "religions" that will be rewarded.
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The God is showing us that there is no way that the human and jinn could bring another TRUTH
i cannot see you you mange to insert 'truth' in the verse.
someone brought a book that had only one sentence which was, "there is no God but the God", that would be the truth and not contradictory, therefore it is the God's reading(quran).
what! for example, if Billy Bob brough a book that says "laillahhaillallah' it is GOD reading? Wouldnt Bill Bob sucessfully met the chanllenge of the Koran?!?!
The word "quran" only means reading, it does not limit the truth to one book.
What! the koran is now many books. So why GOD isolate it from previous scriptures.
This reading(quran) that we study from is complete in its guidance, but guidance can be found in other places, which is why there will be people of all "religions" that will be rewarded.
So why did God say it is wrong to seek religious judgement with something beside the koran (6112)? if the guidance can be found in other place, maybe we should use hadiths as guidance too.
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Peace be upon you,
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The God is showing us that there is no way that the human and jinn could bring another TRUTHi cannot see you you mange to insert 'truth' in the verse.
We know something is the truth (from the God) when we eliminate the contradictions. That is the criterion the God has given.
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someone brought a book that had only one sentence which was, "there is no God but the God", that would be the truth and not contradictory, therefore it is the God's reading(quran).what! for example, if Billy Bob brough a book that says "laillahhaillallah' it is GOD reading?
Yes. Who else is the truth from?
Wouldnt Bill Bob sucessfully met the chanllenge of the Koran?!?!
No, because Billy Bob would have brought the truth, which IS the God's reading, not "like" the God's reading.
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The word "quran" only means reading, it does not limit the truth to one book.What! the koran is now many books. So why GOD isolate it from previous scriptures.
Where is this reading isolated? The God says he has given all messengers the same message. All messengers get the truth. What other scriptures are you talking about?
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This reading(quran) that we study from is complete in its guidance, but guidance can be found in other places, which is why there will be people of all "religions" that will be rewarded.So why did God say it is wrong to seek religious judgement with something beside the koran (6112)?
I am not sire which verse you are referring to, but even still, the word "quran" only means reading, and in the context of the message we are dealing withthe God's reading, which is determined by no contradictions. I would say that is good advice to use only Truth as a judge, not falsehood.
if the guidance can be found in other place, maybe we should use hadiths as guidance too.
This reading(quran) is a story(hadith). It is described as the best story (hadith).
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No, because Billy Bob would have brought the truth, which IS the God's reading, not "like" the God's reading.
So according ro your understanding, what in existence is truth is from GOD. So if the Satan says something truth, it is from GOD? Anything that is truth is from GOD according to you? Now i dont disagree with that. But 'the chanllenge' mention nothing about that. For example
Where is this reading isolated? The God says he has given all messengers the same message. All messengers get the truth. What other scriptures are you talking about?
GOd mention many by name, isolating each from the other.(4163, 546, 33). Now i know you will use the 'symbolic' root word argument however, please remember that these names existed before the Koran. That mean GOD was making refernce to particular books.
I am not sire which verse you are referring to, but even still, the word "quran" only means reading, and in the context of the message we are dealing withthe God's reading, which is determined by no contradictions. I would say that is good advice to use only Truth as a judge, not falsehood.
but it does matter how you translate the word 'quran', GOD clearly label it a tangible book and scripture (6114). This is why it is hard to debate with someone who believe everything is 'symbolic'. There is no structure in it and they are never on solid ground. You tell them its a book, they debate on the symbolic meaning of book. You tell them its a scripture, they tell you the symbolic mean of 'scripture'. It is a pointless debate that continues in a dusty cycle.
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Satan Hates Me!!!
How sure you are that Satan hates you, cant be other way around ?
THINK, THINK TWICE!!!!!!!And who is more wicked than one who is reminded of his Lord's verses but he turned away from them, and he forgot what his hands had done. We have made veils upon their hearts from understanding them, and a deafness in their ears. And if you invite them to the guidance, they will never be guided. 1857
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Peace upon you all.
Old topic, yes, but... I noticed that nobody pointed out that the challenge has not been met for the most obvious reason which does not discredit their books.
'And if you are in doubt as to which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call on your helper, besides Allah, if you are truthful.' (Sura 223)."
The first part of the challenge is "produce another surah like it," true;
But the second part is "call upon other than God as your helper."If the sikhs and bahais consider their their book divinely inspired as you claim, this challenge has not been met. If they say God helped them with the production of their surah then they lose eligability to the 'produce a surah like it' challenge. Also, it is my personal belief that the challenge does not include scientific facts, mathematical structure, or coherence, but is specifically about the language. The 7th century arabs who recieved the message couldn't have possibly known about all of the scientific facts or mathematical structure in it, and the challenge to "produce a book like it" was followed by "produce a surah like it" then "produce a verse like it," producing one single verse could mean only one simple statement, which can't be contradictory with any other statement if no other statements are made.
That said, "what sayings will you take after this?" still applies; but God knows best about the scriptures of their faiths.
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Greetings all,
a friend of mine has the following theoryAny thoughts?
thanks
Hello Tariq and nice to meet you.
In the Quran, God poses a challenge to those who do not believe in the Quran. The challenge is to produce a sura like it. God says in the Quran that whoever takes on this challenge will not suceed. Indeed that is true, and the challenge has never been met and challenge never will be met. There are two major reasons for this
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The Quran is true, and every sura in the Quran is true. Therefore, in order to complete the challenge, one would have to write a sura, a chapter that would be true while at the same time not agreeing with the Quran. This is obviously not possible. If one writes a chapter that disagrees with the Quran, then they have not completed the challenge because the chapter is not true. This alone proves that no one can complete the challenge.
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The second part of the challenge says that along with producing a chapter that is like the Quran, one who is in doubt must also call upon their helpers. However, those helpers do not exist. Therefore, one who is in doubt cannot call upon their helpers because they don't exist.
It is a very simple topic.
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Hello Tariq and nice to meet you.
In the Quran, God poses a challenge to those who do not believe in the Quran. The challenge is to produce a sura like it. God says in the Quran that whoever takes on this challenge will not suceed. Indeed that is true, and the challenge has never been met and challenge never will be met. There are two major reasons for this
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The Quran is true, and every sura in the Quran is true. Therefore, in order to complete the challenge, one would have to write a sura, a chapter that would be true while at the same time not agreeing with the Quran. This is obviously not possible. If one writes a chapter that disagrees with the Quran, then they have not completed the challenge because the chapter is not true. This alone proves that no one can complete the challenge.
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The second part of the challenge says that along with producing a chapter that is like the Quran, one who is in doubt must also call upon their helpers. However, those helpers do not exist. Therefore, one who is in doubt cannot call upon their helpers because they don't exist.
It is a very simple topic.
But someone calimed that this challenge has already been met as two versese all ready added
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But someone calimed that this challenge has already been met as two versese all ready added
Peace. Are you talking about Rashad Khalifa?
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Has anyone here actually read those two books which the OP claims have met the challenge of the Quran.
Of course we all know that Bahism was created with the help of the British Empire, where does its books challenge the quran? And as for Sikhism... it's too small of an organization, no?