Is hell going to be eternal for anyone acording to the Quran
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The thing is that what seems questionable to me is the assumption that Khalid should mean eternal or forever. I do not think it means that, and I don't know why it should be taken to mean that. It may be interesting to compare that with As-Samad. Khalid I understand more to mean staying, something that stays to the point of making that staying have its effect. And this is born out by the fact that we are assured that the return is tu God, that to Him destiny leads. In fact the reality of Hell may be realisation of the utter falseness and delusion those have lived when confronted with the Gods names of Majesty, their utter wretchedness.
If there is no contradiction in the Qur'an, then
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it cannot be that God sais of Himself that He is most merciful and then condemns wholesale for an etrnity of torture those who are His own creation. Obviously He can, but then nobody would call that merciful, and least of all most merciful, particularly when He guides whom He wills.
If evrything return to Him, nobody can stay forever in Hell because everything will reurn to Him.
He created us to worship him, if somebody is not going to worship him then God would have failed or owuld have lied to us, that cannot be so, if God is God such as He reveals himself in the truthful Qur'an.
Kh-l-d has a range of meanings perfectly congruent with what others and I have said, so is the case of a-b-d. Is it really imperative that we should pick the meaning that makes less sense no matter what?
Salaam
Makes sense,
siki
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If there is no contradiction in the Qur'an, then
- it cannot be that God sais of Himself that He is most merciful and then condemns wholesale for an etrnity of torture those who are His own creation. Obviously He can, but then nobody would call that merciful, and least of all most merciful, particularly when He guides whom He wills.
If we see it that way then even a millisecond spent in hell is too much time for anyone.
The Most Merciful to those who repent.
If evrything return to Him, nobody can stay forever in Hell because everything will reurn to Him.
Returns to him is about the afterlife being reassembled for judgement then to each accordingly.
He created us to worship him, if somebody is not going to worship him then God would have failed or owuld have lied to us, that cannot be so, if God is God such as He reveals himself in the truthful Qur'an.
If we look at it that way then even one unbeliever past, present, or future is a failure.
Kh-l-d has a range of meanings perfectly congruent with what others and I have said, so is the case of a-b-d. Is it really imperative that we should pick the meaning that makes less sense no matter what?
Yes, it's imperative we take the best meaning realize there a things we cannot comprehend...
37 and those firm in the knowledge, they say, "We believe in it, all from our Lord."
Peace
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Peace
What is the purpose of following "The Guidance" and be a law abiding person if every evil-criminal is going to end up in heaven , just like those who followed the guidance ?
Since when is the failure to understand is = contradiction ? Whether one ends up in heaven or hell is a direct consequence of their deeds during their time on this earth . Please show proof that eternal means temporary or khalidun/abada means a certain length of time only .
Peace
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Assume that life on earth is the chance for human being to learn about its Creator, while hell is punishment for not being able to learn.
Assume that life on earth is finite, while hell is infinite.If you take those above assumptions as true, then you see the problem the "punishment" is (infinitely) greater than the "chance to learn". I take it that for such justification, the "sin" (or whatever is taken as reason for the punishment) done in the finite life on earth must be proportional to the "infinite punishment" for it to be "fair/just" (in the sense of Divine Justice). What is to be judged as proportional, however, is not in the authority of any of us... (in which case i can't comment any further). Isn't that why the concept of hell as a "(Divine,) infinite punishment" is so hard to grasp?
Yes, it's imperative we take the best meaning realize there a things we cannot comprehend...
37 and those firm in the knowledge, they say, "We believe in it, all from our Lord."
Peace
I'm not sure what you meant by that. If one "cannot comprehend", then how could it be "firm in the knowledge"? Just saying "We believe in it" doesn't make one "firm in the knowledge", does it?
What is the purpose of following "The Guidance" and be a law abiding person if every evil-criminal is going to end up in heaven , just like those who followed the guidance ?
Since when is the failure to understand is = contradiction ? Where one ends up in heaven or hell is a direct consequence of their deeds during their time on this earth .
Please don't forget the other 'option' self-destruction --> extinction (i.e. non-existence)
What you refer to as "evil-criminal", i assume, will have some kind of "destructive" tendency. A "destructive" pattern, if continued persistently (i.e. by free-will) will finally lead to its own destruction. To me, this possibility is much more logical than the possibility of a god who creates and re-creates a living being to destruct and re-destruct it, just as the consequence of the existence of "heaven".
What is heaven, by the way? Is our purpose here just to get a ticket to "heaven"? As in, work by following the guidance now, then retire for eternal bliss? No progress whatsoever anymore? I don't think so. And then what is hell? Is it as simple as it seems to be, a "fire" in which some of the creations will be burned in, just like woods in the stove (only repeatedly forever)?
Your question 'Please show proof that eternal means temporary or khalidun means a certain length of time only' can easily be reversed by the other party i.e. 'Please show that khalidun means eternal' (can also be directed to the thread starter). As no one of us will be able to give the ultimate proof, then a consistent & coherent interpretation of the Quran would suffice.
To me personally, the 'Worship Me/or go to hell' notion that i get from some members here just doesn't make sense. I'd rather criticize, than accept anything as is on the base of fear.
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This is a great discussion. I am learning a lot.
A wise person I know once told me that "hell" was separation from G-d. (Isn't that painful? Isn't the worst physical pain we can imagine or have experienced a burning, tearing pain? How painful is that for our soul to experience? Maybe this is just a really good metaphor from G-d. . . however, have you ever lost yourself and felt completely cut off from G-d in this life? Didn't it tear you apart, emotionally?)
She also said that "heaven" was being in the presence of G-d. (Compare any experience you've had of "heaven" (a feeling of unity, or the presence of G-d in your life) and "hell" (that separateness I described above)).
Yes, the Quran says that "to Allah (G-d) we will return.I dunno. . . makes me think. . . "there are signs for those who think". . . Hmm. . . No, I don't know any of these answers, but it does make me think, and it seems that is to be encouraged, from what I've read.
Thanks for this discussion!
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Assume that life on earth is the chance for human being to learn about its Creator, while hell is punishment for not being able to learn.
Assume that life on earth is finite, while hell is infinite.If you take those above assumptions as true, then you see the problem the "punishment" is (infinitely) greater than the "chance to learn". I take it that for such justification, the "sin" (or whatever is taken as reason for the punishment) done in the finite life on earth must be proportional to the "infinite punishment" for it to be "fair/just" (in the sense of Divine Justice). What is to be judged as proportional, however, is not in the authority of any of us... (in which case i can't comment any further). Isn't that why the concept of hell as a "(Divine,) infinite punishment" is so hard to grasp?
I'm not sure what you meant by that. If one "cannot comprehend", then how could it be "firm in the knowledge"? Just saying "We believe in it" doesn't make one "firm in the knowledge", does
Please don't forget the other 'option' self-destruction --> extinction (i.e. non-existence)
What you refer to as "evil-criminal", i assume, will have some kind of "destructive" tendency. A "destructive" pattern, if continued persistently (i.e. by free-will) will finally lead to its own destruction. To me, this possibility is much more logical than the possibility of a god who creates and re-creates a living being to destruct and re-destruct it, just as the consequence of the existence of "heaven".
What is heaven, by the way? Is our purpose here just to get a ticket to "heaven"? As in, work by following the guidance now, then retire for eternal bliss? No progress whatsoever anymore? I don't think so. And then what is hell? Is it as simple as it seems to be, a "fire" in which some of the creations will be burned in, just like woods in the stove (only repeatedly forever)?
Your question 'Please show proof that eternal means temporary or khalidun means a certain length of time only' can easily be reversed by the other party i.e. 'Please show that khalidun means eternal' (can also be directed to the thread starter). As no one of us will be able to give the ultimate proof, then a consistent & coherent interpretation of the Quran would suffice.
To me personally, the 'Worship Me/or go to hell' notion that i get from some members here just doesn't make sense. I'd rather criticize, than accept anything as is on the base of fear.
Peace
Kh-Lam-Dal = To remain/stay/dwell/abode, to remain or continue incessantly/always/endlessly/forever/perpetually, to adorn another with ornaments, to be slow in becoming hoary (when advanced in age), endowed with perpetual vigour
khalada vb. (1)
impf. act. 2569, 26129
n.vb. 5034
pcple. act. 225, 239, 281, 282, 2162, 2217, 2257, 2275, 315, 388, 3107, 3116, 3136, 3198, 413, 414, 457, 493, 4122, 4169, 580, 585, 5119, 6128, 720, 736, 742, 917, 922, 963, 968, 972, 989, 9100, 1026, 1027, 1123, 11107, 11108, 135, 1423, 1629, 18108, 2076, 20101, 218, 2134, 2199, 21102, 2311, 23103, 2516, 2576, 2958, 319, 3365, 3972, 3973, 4076, 4371, 4374, 4614, 4715, 485, 5712, 5817, 5822, 5917, 649, 6410, 6511, 7223, 986, 988khuld n.m. 1052, 21120, 2134, 2515, 32!4, 4128
khallada vb. (2) pcple. pass. 5617, 7619
akhlada vb. (4) perf. act. 7176, 1043
LL, V2, p 419, 420
Alif-Ba-Dal = he remained/stayed, abode, dwelt constantly/permanently, to render perpetual, time (in an absolute sense), long time, endless/eternal/forever, unlimited/indivisible, lasting/everlasting, unsocial/unfamiliar, never (when used in negative construction).
abad n.m. 295, 457, 4122, 4169, 524, 5119, 922, 983, 984, 9100, 9108, 183, 1820, 1835, 1857, 244, 2417, 2421, 3353, 3365, 4812, 5911, 604, 627, 649, 6511, 7223, 988
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 1, pages 41, 42
"42 But (as for) those who believe and do good works - We tax not any soul beyond its scope - Such are rightful owners of the Garden. They abide therein" AQ 742
"43 And We remove whatever rancour may be in their hearts. Rivers flow beneath them. And they say The praise to Allah, Who hath guided us to this. We could not truly have been led aright if Allah had not guided us. Verily the messengers of our Lord did bring the Truth. And it is cried unto them This is the Garden. Ye inherit it for what ye used to do".AQ 743
"44 And the dwellers of the Garden cry unto the dwellers of the Fire We have found that which our Lord promised us (to be) the Truth. Have ye (too) found that which your Lord promised the Truth? They say Yea, verily. And a crier in between them crieth The curse of Allah is on evil-doers ". AQ 744
Could you please answer my questions in my previous post ?
Peace and thank you
almarh0m
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Peace
What is the purpose of following "The Guidance" and be a law abiding person if every evil-criminal is going to end up in heaven , just like those who followed the guidance ?
Since when is the failure to understand is = contradiction ? Whether one ends up in heaven or hell is a direct consequence of their deeds during their time on this earth . Please show proof that eternal means temporary or khalidun/abada means a certain length of time only .
Peace
?What heaven? I do not know what happens to those in hell, I say that hell cannot be forever, because only God is forever and because as it is, as you claim it to be, would be unjust, no matter how much you may say that anybody did not want the guide, it is still unjust. And the most merciful cannot be just for some people, that wouldn't be the most merciful. There are human beings that are merciful for all. That still would be
less merciful than most people in this world, who would not dream of torturing anybody for all eternity, and I don't care whether they earned it or not. They could never earn an eternity, and if they did, God created them that way, capable of that. He could still punish them for all eternity because He is all powerful, but then He would not be, latif and merciful and the whole lot.We do not understand things, or rather don't know many things, most things wwe do not know, but God comands us repeatedly to reason and reflect, not to shupt up our judgement. And the contradiction is there, no matter what excuses are found for it, if it is taken that any human being is going to be tortured an eternity for some wrong that was not an eternity.
If we look at it that way then even one unbeliever past, present, or future is a failure.
No, because it is clear that the life of men is a trial and that life is in order to return to Him and learn and know him, that starts from the fact that we start not knowing, and being apart from Him. It is a travel, a sira.
Also, if you take that reasoning, then one instant in hell would already be hell forever. You cannot have it both ways.
As to the Qur'an saying or not saying, it is all in the words used and what meaning you give them. That you pick eternity is no reason for anybody else not take "stay", rot in hell or whatever is within their range.
Also that those in hell go to heaven, I did not say that. I do not know where they go, nor know what heaven in muslim terms could be. Maybe they would go straight to God without heaven or what you mean by it, in between, but the thing is that only God is eternal and only God knows.
As to the complaint about the purpose of the guidance if everybody ends up in "heaven" (I take it you mean jannah). Well hell, for whatever it lasts, even if it is just a day or five minutes, does not seem to be great fun, does it? Do you mean that if you thought it wasn't eternal you would be ready to not to have guidance and settle for whatever time in hell? I think you take hell as a picnic. Any time in hell is already too much for everybody to flinch on thinking about it. The guidance obviously is for our hapiness, to fulfill our destiny of worshipping God with the least suffering. I think it is quite worthwhile. To have the certainty that God did and does speak to us and knows us intimately. ?What do we need people in hell forever for? ?Why would God Most Merciful and Just want such a thing which goes against all beauty?
?Are you sure that that conception of hell eternal does not come from christianity or previous religions and corrupted quranic meanings just as that kind of thing has corrpted so much else in the Qur'an? What was the meaning of kh-l-d- and a-b-d at the time of revelation, only just eternity and eternal? Can you swear to that and can you swear to that meaning being the only one conceivable just interpreting the Qur'an thorugh the Qur'an?
And again, how does As-Samad defer from kh-l-d and a-b-d, and how do those two defer?
At any rate, a God that creates somebody destined to be in eternal hell forever, I could call him all powerful, but by no means, no way Most just or most merciful or any of the names of beauty.
I am not trying to convince anybody. I know this eternal hell and paradise notion has a very strong pull, but putting my most honest understanding I cannot bring it to reconcile with the Qur'an and its contents.
Again I emphasize, because most who think eternal seem not to grasp it, that Hell for whatever time, is already hell, full hell, terrifying enough just to think of it for any length of time however short. And I might feel that rather than a question of time, hell is a question of intensity, of the horror of realising the amazing Power of God and the misery of our life and deeds.
In fact, how sure can we be that we are not deserving hell? Simply because we feel that whatever our wrongs God cannot do that to us, because we ourselves would never do that to anybody.
Returns to him is about the afterlife being reassembled for judgement then to each accordingly.
I do not see why either when God says that to him is destiny, by destiny... there are no four destinies, however many stages may it consist of, destiny is one. Ilaihi al masir is to Him we return always wherever we may wander the end is Him.
Salaam
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As TVmom says, Indeed this is a very interesting discussion, specially because this question probably has nagged all of us a good part of our lives and is so much beyond our grasp.
What you refer to as "evil-criminal", i assume, will have some kind of "destructive" tendency. A "destructive" pattern, if continued persistently (i.e. by free-will) will finally lead to its own destruction. To me, this possibility is much more logical than the possibility of a god who creates and re-creates a living being to destruct and re-destruct it, just as the consequence of the existence of "heaven".
This paragraph of san's post has got me thinking about the meaning of Rahman, Rahim, Most gracious, most Merciful. If that is so, that means that God's grace and mercy pervades all, that all His acts are full of mercy and grace, that nothing He does is void of them or is not the source of goodness, of His goodness. Therefore hell must also be full of his mercy and grace, hell must be good. May be the blackest horror of hell is dispair, maybe also in hell there is the possibility of lightning repentance and therefore, once having known the names of majesty and the power of God, the soul in hell doesn't want anything than returning to God and does so straight away, or dispair makes God terminate it, and also, by other way return to Him. Therefore no Paradise for those. Paradise is still part of the destiny not the final destiny. Paradise is the return to God through ease. No hell, no suffering, degrees of proximity to God till we are consumed in His love.
Hell must be part of Mercy when every other show of mercy has been rejected by the wretch. Hell is the projection of our emptiness when we rely on anything other than God. We reject fullness and we get to taste emptiness... maddening.
Sorry I am getting carried away...
Salaam
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Salaam all,
I see many differences in views. We have to see "What is the purpose of our created"?
5156
5156 I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to serve Me.
The one who serves Allah, is His servant.
351
351 Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him, this is a straight path.
And there are lot of things that we don't understand from AlQuraan/AlKitaab, but still we cannot deny them. But we have to wait till Allah judges in those matters.
10109
10109 And follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until Allah judges. And He is the best of judges.
If we don't wait for Allah's judgement that we will be either denying the aayats or following our own wishes. This both may lead us to astray.
1039
1039 No, they have lied about that which they had no knowledge, nor has its explanation come to them. It is also how those before them denied, so see how was the retribution of the wicked!
Following aayaats are clear enough to get the picture
280
281
282280 And they said The Fire will not touch us except for a few number of days. Say Have you taken a pledge with Allah? If so, then Allah will not break His pledge. Or do you say about Allah what you do not know?
281 Indeed, whoever gains a sin, and is surrounded by his mistakes; those are the people of the Fire, they will be in it everlasting.
282 And those who believe and do good works, they are the people of the Paradise, they will be in it everlasting.
About Allah being Merciful
2082
2082 And I am forgiving for whoever repents and believes and does good works, then is guided.
It is clear in 2082 that Allah is indeed forgiving, but for whom? He says "For whoever repents AND believes AND does good, then is guided."
May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
First of all, thanks for showing the dictionary. I could have done the same in a few seconds minutes without making any actual point that is coherent and consistent with the whole AQ.
Actually I have already given you a response, however for the sake of completeness
Our purpose is to consciously serve our Creator (what i take as "`abd" instead of "worship", and that "heaven" is nothing but the consequence of understanding and then consciously serving the Creator (much more than the pleasures suggested by the parables in AQ). By my understanding, your sub-clause 'if every evil-criminal is going to end up in heaven' would only be logical IF every evil-criminal turns out to be a conscious servant of their Creator.
The failure to understand = a trigger to learn. What others think as "contradiction" could also be our trigger to learn more than what we thought we know.
And lastly, i don't know if you get this or not, but i've offered you an alternative view that any soul who does get destructed, does so by destructing itself by its own free-will, through the chance of life. Therefore, for as long as it lives, it (the soul) only gets through suffering and more suffering all caused by itself, until its own termination--to the point at which it could no more receive the Mercy of its Creator simply because it doesn't exist anymore. Remember that there is no verse in the Quran which suggests that our soul is "eternal" or "indestructible". Eternal/endlessly/forever, by the way, is commonly used in many languages to express any length of time beyond comprehension. It is an expression. The only one that is Perfectly Eternal/Timeless is the Creator himself.
Isn't every soul, a direct gift of the Creator? As long as a soul is still alive, why would its Creator destruct (i.e. "burn" it? As long as a soul is alive, will not the mercy of God be enough to guide it and therefore sustains its life? Not a soul will be wronged in the least.
It's much more coherent, in my opinion, to understand our Creator as the Perfect "Rahmaan-Rahiim". That is why, i think, the only logical move is to remind people to return to a way that is more natural and progressive in any kind of spiritual pleasure/goodness (by understanding the Creator; through Life, Creation, Nature) and not warn because of the conceptual "hell of fire", but because of the self-destructing pattern that will eventually lead oneself to its own termination/extinction/non-existence!
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I go back to the fatiha. It is interesting that it is asked from God that He should guide us to follow the upright path, and not the path of those to whom you made it easy not of those who earned wrath on themselves nor of those who go astray.
Where do those paths lead? Why should we ask to be guided to the soft path? We are not told that there is a path that doesn't lead to God, we are told that in some path we go astray, that in another we get anger...
Nothing and nobody goes away from God, but it is to get the best going that we get guidance.
This upright path reminds me of the myths or metphores of resurrection and ascension. It is just an illustration of how upright the easy way can be, how quick and pleasant.God warns us, if we do not opt for the easy way, we are in for a lot of suffering, it doesn't say that we will not get there.
Salaam
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First of all, thanks for showing the dictionary. I could have done the same in a few seconds minutes without making any actual point that is coherent and consistent with the whole AQ.
Actually I have already given you a response, however for the sake of completeness
Our purpose is to consciously serve our Creator (what i take as "`abd" instead of "worship", and that "heaven" is nothing but the consequence of understanding and then consciously serving the Creator (much more than the pleasures suggested by the parables in AQ). By my understanding, your sub-clause 'if every evil-criminal is going to end up in heaven' would only be logical IF every evil-criminal turns out to be a conscious servant of their Creator.
The failure to understand = a trigger to learn. What others think as "contradiction" could also be our trigger to learn more than what we thought we know.
And lastly, i don't know if you get this or not, but i've offered you an alternative view that any soul who does get destructed, does so by destructing itself by its own free-will, through the chance of life. Therefore, for as long as it lives, it (the soul) only gets through suffering and more suffering all caused by itself, until its own termination--to the point at which it could no more receive the Mercy of its Creator simply because it doesn't exist anymore. Remember that there is no verse in the Quran which suggests that our soul is "eternal" or "indestructible". Eternal/endlessly/forever, by the way, is commonly used in many languages to express any length of time beyond comprehension. It is an expression. The only one that is Perfectly Eternal/Timeless is the Creator himself.
Isn't every soul, a direct gift of the Creator? As long as a soul is still alive, why would its Creator destruct (i.e. "burn" it? As long as a soul is alive, will not the mercy of God be enough to guide it and therefore sustains its life? Not a soul will be wronged in the least.
It's much more coherent, in my opinion, to understand our Creator as the Perfect "Rahmaan-Rahiim". That is why, i think, the only logical move is to remind people to return to a way that is more natural and progressive in any kind of spiritual pleasure/goodness (by understanding the Creator; through Life, Creation, Nature) and not warn because of the conceptual "hell of fire", but because of the self-destructing pattern that will eventually lead oneself to its own termination/extinction/non-existence!
Peace
Firstly , let me congratulate you for your ability to check the "dictionary" and the occurrences of the the word khalidun & abada in a few minutes , you must be a genius and I am glad to know that there is such a person in this forum . To be honest , it took me hours to read every verse with the word khalidun and its derivatives as well as the word abada and its various listed meanings . I posted them for they are the basis of my conclusion and understanding that the words in question mean forever , eternal or everlasting .
And to further clarify why I hold this belief in respect of hell and the eternality of it , I cited relevant verses in support of my argument , which you chose to ignore .
The only reason you have for your argument that hell is not forever , and khalidun & abada do not mean forever , eternal or everlasting is the presence of the creator's attribute of "Al Rahman and Al Rahim or the merciful as you put it . You claim that due to the Creator being merciful , no one is going to be punished in hell forever , as it will contradict the attributes of Al Rahman and Al Rahim . Allow me to remind you that "the merciful" has been around forever , and countless of tribes , nations and peoples of the continents had been wiped off the face of this earth almost entirely in some cases for whatever trangressions that they committed . Where was the mercy then ?
What is there to stop "The Merciful" from committing sinners or transgressors to everlasting hell ?If we were to rely solely on the belief that because the creator is merciful and therefore , there is not going to be an everlasting rewards and punishments , then why does the creator bother to send countless of messengers with the book of guidance , criterion , the great reading if Al Rahman & Al rahim suffice , even adequate ?
Finally , the onus of proof is on you , since you are the one that hold the position of "Hell is not eternal , forever or everlasting" as well as refusing to believe that the meanings of Khalidun and Abada is staying forever , eternal , and everlasting as evidenced by the relevant verses cited on this page by other posters and by me .
Peace
almarh0m
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Peace
Firstly , let me congratulate you for your ability to check the "dictionary" and the occurrences of the the word khalidun & abada in a few minutes , you must be a genius and I am glad to know that there is such a person in this forum . To be honest , it took me hours to read every verse with the word khalidun and its derivatives as well as the word abada and its various listed meanings . I posted them for they are the basis of my conclusion and understanding that the words in question mean forever , eternal or everlasting .
Sorry i meant no offense but what i meant by 'in a few minutes' was copying and pasting two entries from PRL/Lane's Lexicon (yes, a lexicon is a "dictionary". It seems like that remark sparked a not so friendly tone, in that case i apologize.
And to further clarify why I hold this belief in respect of hell and the eternality of it , I cited relevant verses in support of my argument , which you chose to ignore .
The only reason you have for your argument that hell is not forever , and khalidun & abada do not mean forever , eternal or everlasting is the presence of the creator's attribute of "Al Rahman and Al Rahim or the merciful as you put it . You claim that due to the Creator being merciful , no one is going to be punished in hell forever , as it will contradict the attributes of Al Rahman and Al Rahim .
Again forgive me if it seems like i ignored your cited references. That is not my intention. The latter part of my previous response was actually my personal interpretation of those verses you cited.
Please read again what i have said before, i did not said "hell is not forever", but rather for as long as it (the soul) lives (it's destructing itself). The notion that i'm against is in God deliberately re-creating His creations, His souls and then punishing/torturing them in perfect, absolute eternity. On the other hand, from the viewpoint of the soul itself, it would definitely be forever (i.e. the 'timeframe' of its existence is only since Creation --> its own destruction).
Allow me to remind you that "the merciful" has been around forever , and countless of tribes , nations and peoples of the continents had been wiped off the face of this earth almost entirely in some cases for whatever trangressions that they committed . Where was the mercy then ?
Thanks for the reminder. The mercy is in the stopping of their regressing culture for the believers and others to thrive. That's how you can see the "transgressions" as self-destructive. On top of all that, the "wiping off" is nothing but physical extermination (largely irrelevant to their spiritual development), while the destruction of the soul/spiritual are done by themselves to themselves. And physical extermination is justifiable as a stopping measure because their regressive nature affects a great number of other people's lives (those exterminated must have received strong warnings prior to their execution), just as capital punishment is justifiable in the light of security for the rest of the society.
What is there to stop "The Merciful" from committing sinners or transgressors to everlasting hell ?
Everlasting, as in perfectly eternal, hell? Then i think, His Mercy. On the other side, what is there to stop any human being from receiving His Mercy? The answer is its own will ('eternal' from its own point of view) not to receive Mercy.
If we were to rely solely on the belief that because the creator is merciful and therefore , there is not going to be an everlasting rewards and punishments , then why does the creator bother to send countless of messengers with the book of guidance , criterion , the great reading if Al Rahman & Al rahim suffice , even adequate ?
There is a bit of a 'leap in logic' in the above if(and therefore)-then-why question, but for the sake of brevity The revelations and the messengers are all part of His Mercy (rahmah). It is of course of the Creator's greatest interest to have His creations return to Him in the best manner possible, rather than to have them go through what seems to be "endless" suffering (as caused by themselves) which leads to destruction. Ergo, the guidance.
Finally , the onus of proof is on you , since you are the one that hold the position of "Hell is not eternal , forever or everlasting" as well as refusing to believe that the meanings of Khalidun and Abada is staying forever , eternal , and everlasting as evidenced by the relevant verses cited on this page by other posters and by me .
Peace
Please read again my above response re foreverness. Thank you.
Peace on you too
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Salam,
To answer this question from the Quran, the answer is both "yes" and "no".
Hell is eternal, in the sence that none of those who are committed to it will never be given respite or allowed to leave (4169).
Hell is not eternal, in the sence that Hell itself will demise when the universe demises (11106-107).
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Peace
I believe that its most likely eternal.
Hell does not purify , "Allah will not speak to them on the day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them". In similar manner God will not purify those who take a small price for their oaths & His covenant , but one who aknowledges their faults may be purified with alms . God purifies "whom He pleases" .
It is said of the followed and their followers, "Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they will not escape from the Fire." , but they want to get out . Karijeen comes from kh-ra-jim . In verses 80-82 of the 2nd chapter God makes a point that khalidun , from kh-l-d is opposed to "a few numbered days " espoused by a particular party of people. MaAAdoodatan is counted ones from Ayn-Dal .
Joe
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Peace
A wise person I know once told me that "hell" was separation from G-d. (Isn't that painful? Isn't the worst physical pain we can imagine or have experienced a burning, tearing pain? How painful is that for our soul to experience? Maybe this is just a really good metaphor from G-d. . . however, have you ever lost yourself and felt completely cut off from G-d in this life? Didn't it tear you apart, emotionally?)
Were you speaking with a Jew? I did not think they believed in a Hell. Perhaps some sect does. In Dante's Inferno the farthest from God are encased in ice. I think there is a searing, burning pain one experiences from the freezing cold.
She also said that "heaven" was being in the presence of G-d. (Compare any experience you've had of "heaven" (a feeling of unity, or the presence of G-d in your life) and "hell" (that separateness I described above)).
Yes, the Quran says that "to Allah (G-d) we will return.I do believe these are conditions we are living with on earth and can and do cultivate within ourselves.
Joe
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I see that even among us Quranists there are diferent opinions. I sugest that we should all still consider each other to be part of the same faith/Islam but have diferent opinions. I am not particularly interested in others understanding the Quran same as my self.
I simply read the Quran and if something seems not probable I try to discus it wich is obviously why I started this thread. I personaly would do some things diferently if it was up to me. But Its not up to me, its up to God.
Again, it says in many places that Hell is eternal and no one has given me a satisfying answer as to why those verses mean otherwise.
All these reasons are why I have left Islam in the past and why I ventured into Deism because over there I can create a God that makes the most sense to me wich is not nececerily enginering him but trying to reason as much as posible.
However I am very much interested in the truth about God and to me after reading the Quran it simply seems as if there is eternal hell. Now eternal hell seems so rough that I am finding it hard to believe in those verses wich is why I started this thread.
Thanks
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I see that even among us Quranists there are diferent opinions. I sugest that we should all still consider each other to be part of the same faith/Islam but have diferent opinions. I am not particularly interested in others understanding the Quran same as my self.
I simply read the Quran and if something seems not probable I try to discus it wich is obviously why I started this thread. I personaly would do some things diferently if it was up to me. But Its not up to me, its up to God.
Again, it says in many places that Hell is eternal and no one has given me a satisfying answer as to why those verses mean otherwise.
All these reasons are why I have left Islam in the past and why I ventured into Deism because over there I can create a God that makes the most sense to me wich is not nececerily enginering him but trying to reason as much as posible.
However I am very much interested in the truth about God and to me after reading the Quran it simply seems as if there is eternal hell. Now eternal hell seems so rough that I am finding it hard to believe in those verses wich is why I started this thread.
Thanks
To understand eternity in this world and in the next, understand the creation, starts with a big bang, and ends with a big implosion, and than the cycle repeats, the next universe the same, starts with a big bang, and ends with a big implosion, as god says in the verses 2130 and 21104 , and eternity is in between these 2 events of creation, the next <will be better , because it's the evolution of the universe itself.
The big bang
Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe? 2130
The big implosion , than repeats the cycle
The Day when We shall roll up the heavens as a recorder rolleth up a written scroll. As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it. (It is) a promise (binding) upon Us. Lo! We are to perform it 21104
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I do agree with loxbox13.
Perhaps, take note from 2118, maybe the end of this cycle is when all truth is distinguished from all falsehood, whatever that means. Then there would be no real purpose for the universe quranically.
Even though there is an eternity between now and the end, there is still an end. According to the quran, this is the first creation? Or is this perhaps #290242094831110 and we are completely unawares?
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Looking for something else I found this message in another thread
Quote from Ashraf on September 14, 2009, 014843 AM
Dear Samia,I want to learn and hope you dont mind to reply
Is it wrong if i understand the verse 2203 as follows
Minimum "ma3doodat" >>> two days
Maximum "ma3doodat" >>> varies (3 or 4 or 7 etc) but preferably 10, however 10 is not a mandatory.The only 10 that I consider a preferred count was just my understanding base on "hint" in 2196 and 892. (is there anything else?)
However 10 days in 2196 is for hajj I am not sure whether I can overconfidantly say so that 10 days apply to Ramadhan as well.
My understanding at this moment is that Allah give His mercy (leeway) for us to decide the max no of days to our personal preference/ability this time around, but minimum is two. (This stand is still subject to debate/correction)
On other note Allah is very specific with the number of siyaam ie. 3 days (589), 10 days (2196). Any feedback appreciated.
Peace, Ashraf
Samia says
Welcome back! It's been almost a year...I wouldn't consider 2 as part of ma3duudat, since it's mentioned as an exception for special circumsatnces of what would be accepted outside the ma3duudaat.
Minimum of ma3duudat 3
Maximum 10http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg222598#msg222598
It may be of interest regarding the aya 2.80 which has been mentioned in this thread repeatedly.
There is just one difference, in 2.203 says ayam ma3dudaat (adjective in plural), and in 2.80 says ayam ma3duda (adjective in singular).
As far as I know in plural of things, adjectives are normally in singular feminine, so for me the question is why in 2.203 is in plural and whether or not it affects to the number of days that that come in that range.
Salaam
