Is hell going to be eternal for anyone acording to the Quran
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As TVmom says, Indeed this is a very interesting discussion, specially because this question probably has nagged all of us a good part of our lives and is so much beyond our grasp.
What you refer to as "evil-criminal", i assume, will have some kind of "destructive" tendency. A "destructive" pattern, if continued persistently (i.e. by free-will) will finally lead to its own destruction. To me, this possibility is much more logical than the possibility of a god who creates and re-creates a living being to destruct and re-destruct it, just as the consequence of the existence of "heaven".
This paragraph of san's post has got me thinking about the meaning of Rahman, Rahim, Most gracious, most Merciful. If that is so, that means that God's grace and mercy pervades all, that all His acts are full of mercy and grace, that nothing He does is void of them or is not the source of goodness, of His goodness. Therefore hell must also be full of his mercy and grace, hell must be good. May be the blackest horror of hell is dispair, maybe also in hell there is the possibility of lightning repentance and therefore, once having known the names of majesty and the power of God, the soul in hell doesn't want anything than returning to God and does so straight away, or dispair makes God terminate it, and also, by other way return to Him. Therefore no Paradise for those. Paradise is still part of the destiny not the final destiny. Paradise is the return to God through ease. No hell, no suffering, degrees of proximity to God till we are consumed in His love.
Hell must be part of Mercy when every other show of mercy has been rejected by the wretch. Hell is the projection of our emptiness when we rely on anything other than God. We reject fullness and we get to taste emptiness... maddening.
Sorry I am getting carried away...
Salaam
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Salaam all,
I see many differences in views. We have to see "What is the purpose of our created"?
5156
5156 I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to serve Me.
The one who serves Allah, is His servant.
351
351 Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him, this is a straight path.
And there are lot of things that we don't understand from AlQuraan/AlKitaab, but still we cannot deny them. But we have to wait till Allah judges in those matters.
10109
10109 And follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until Allah judges. And He is the best of judges.
If we don't wait for Allah's judgement that we will be either denying the aayats or following our own wishes. This both may lead us to astray.
1039
1039 No, they have lied about that which they had no knowledge, nor has its explanation come to them. It is also how those before them denied, so see how was the retribution of the wicked!
Following aayaats are clear enough to get the picture
280
281
282280 And they said The Fire will not touch us except for a few number of days. Say Have you taken a pledge with Allah? If so, then Allah will not break His pledge. Or do you say about Allah what you do not know?
281 Indeed, whoever gains a sin, and is surrounded by his mistakes; those are the people of the Fire, they will be in it everlasting.
282 And those who believe and do good works, they are the people of the Paradise, they will be in it everlasting.
About Allah being Merciful
2082
2082 And I am forgiving for whoever repents and believes and does good works, then is guided.
It is clear in 2082 that Allah is indeed forgiving, but for whom? He says "For whoever repents AND believes AND does good, then is guided."
May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
First of all, thanks for showing the dictionary. I could have done the same in a few seconds minutes without making any actual point that is coherent and consistent with the whole AQ.
Actually I have already given you a response, however for the sake of completeness
Our purpose is to consciously serve our Creator (what i take as "`abd" instead of "worship", and that "heaven" is nothing but the consequence of understanding and then consciously serving the Creator (much more than the pleasures suggested by the parables in AQ). By my understanding, your sub-clause 'if every evil-criminal is going to end up in heaven' would only be logical IF every evil-criminal turns out to be a conscious servant of their Creator.
The failure to understand = a trigger to learn. What others think as "contradiction" could also be our trigger to learn more than what we thought we know.
And lastly, i don't know if you get this or not, but i've offered you an alternative view that any soul who does get destructed, does so by destructing itself by its own free-will, through the chance of life. Therefore, for as long as it lives, it (the soul) only gets through suffering and more suffering all caused by itself, until its own termination--to the point at which it could no more receive the Mercy of its Creator simply because it doesn't exist anymore. Remember that there is no verse in the Quran which suggests that our soul is "eternal" or "indestructible". Eternal/endlessly/forever, by the way, is commonly used in many languages to express any length of time beyond comprehension. It is an expression. The only one that is Perfectly Eternal/Timeless is the Creator himself.
Isn't every soul, a direct gift of the Creator? As long as a soul is still alive, why would its Creator destruct (i.e. "burn" it? As long as a soul is alive, will not the mercy of God be enough to guide it and therefore sustains its life? Not a soul will be wronged in the least.
It's much more coherent, in my opinion, to understand our Creator as the Perfect "Rahmaan-Rahiim". That is why, i think, the only logical move is to remind people to return to a way that is more natural and progressive in any kind of spiritual pleasure/goodness (by understanding the Creator; through Life, Creation, Nature) and not warn because of the conceptual "hell of fire", but because of the self-destructing pattern that will eventually lead oneself to its own termination/extinction/non-existence!
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I go back to the fatiha. It is interesting that it is asked from God that He should guide us to follow the upright path, and not the path of those to whom you made it easy not of those who earned wrath on themselves nor of those who go astray.
Where do those paths lead? Why should we ask to be guided to the soft path? We are not told that there is a path that doesn't lead to God, we are told that in some path we go astray, that in another we get anger...
Nothing and nobody goes away from God, but it is to get the best going that we get guidance.
This upright path reminds me of the myths or metphores of resurrection and ascension. It is just an illustration of how upright the easy way can be, how quick and pleasant.God warns us, if we do not opt for the easy way, we are in for a lot of suffering, it doesn't say that we will not get there.
Salaam
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First of all, thanks for showing the dictionary. I could have done the same in a few seconds minutes without making any actual point that is coherent and consistent with the whole AQ.
Actually I have already given you a response, however for the sake of completeness
Our purpose is to consciously serve our Creator (what i take as "`abd" instead of "worship", and that "heaven" is nothing but the consequence of understanding and then consciously serving the Creator (much more than the pleasures suggested by the parables in AQ). By my understanding, your sub-clause 'if every evil-criminal is going to end up in heaven' would only be logical IF every evil-criminal turns out to be a conscious servant of their Creator.
The failure to understand = a trigger to learn. What others think as "contradiction" could also be our trigger to learn more than what we thought we know.
And lastly, i don't know if you get this or not, but i've offered you an alternative view that any soul who does get destructed, does so by destructing itself by its own free-will, through the chance of life. Therefore, for as long as it lives, it (the soul) only gets through suffering and more suffering all caused by itself, until its own termination--to the point at which it could no more receive the Mercy of its Creator simply because it doesn't exist anymore. Remember that there is no verse in the Quran which suggests that our soul is "eternal" or "indestructible". Eternal/endlessly/forever, by the way, is commonly used in many languages to express any length of time beyond comprehension. It is an expression. The only one that is Perfectly Eternal/Timeless is the Creator himself.
Isn't every soul, a direct gift of the Creator? As long as a soul is still alive, why would its Creator destruct (i.e. "burn" it? As long as a soul is alive, will not the mercy of God be enough to guide it and therefore sustains its life? Not a soul will be wronged in the least.
It's much more coherent, in my opinion, to understand our Creator as the Perfect "Rahmaan-Rahiim". That is why, i think, the only logical move is to remind people to return to a way that is more natural and progressive in any kind of spiritual pleasure/goodness (by understanding the Creator; through Life, Creation, Nature) and not warn because of the conceptual "hell of fire", but because of the self-destructing pattern that will eventually lead oneself to its own termination/extinction/non-existence!
Peace
Firstly , let me congratulate you for your ability to check the "dictionary" and the occurrences of the the word khalidun & abada in a few minutes , you must be a genius and I am glad to know that there is such a person in this forum . To be honest , it took me hours to read every verse with the word khalidun and its derivatives as well as the word abada and its various listed meanings . I posted them for they are the basis of my conclusion and understanding that the words in question mean forever , eternal or everlasting .
And to further clarify why I hold this belief in respect of hell and the eternality of it , I cited relevant verses in support of my argument , which you chose to ignore .
The only reason you have for your argument that hell is not forever , and khalidun & abada do not mean forever , eternal or everlasting is the presence of the creator's attribute of "Al Rahman and Al Rahim or the merciful as you put it . You claim that due to the Creator being merciful , no one is going to be punished in hell forever , as it will contradict the attributes of Al Rahman and Al Rahim . Allow me to remind you that "the merciful" has been around forever , and countless of tribes , nations and peoples of the continents had been wiped off the face of this earth almost entirely in some cases for whatever trangressions that they committed . Where was the mercy then ?
What is there to stop "The Merciful" from committing sinners or transgressors to everlasting hell ?If we were to rely solely on the belief that because the creator is merciful and therefore , there is not going to be an everlasting rewards and punishments , then why does the creator bother to send countless of messengers with the book of guidance , criterion , the great reading if Al Rahman & Al rahim suffice , even adequate ?
Finally , the onus of proof is on you , since you are the one that hold the position of "Hell is not eternal , forever or everlasting" as well as refusing to believe that the meanings of Khalidun and Abada is staying forever , eternal , and everlasting as evidenced by the relevant verses cited on this page by other posters and by me .
Peace
almarh0m
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Peace
Firstly , let me congratulate you for your ability to check the "dictionary" and the occurrences of the the word khalidun & abada in a few minutes , you must be a genius and I am glad to know that there is such a person in this forum . To be honest , it took me hours to read every verse with the word khalidun and its derivatives as well as the word abada and its various listed meanings . I posted them for they are the basis of my conclusion and understanding that the words in question mean forever , eternal or everlasting .
Sorry i meant no offense but what i meant by 'in a few minutes' was copying and pasting two entries from PRL/Lane's Lexicon (yes, a lexicon is a "dictionary". It seems like that remark sparked a not so friendly tone, in that case i apologize.
And to further clarify why I hold this belief in respect of hell and the eternality of it , I cited relevant verses in support of my argument , which you chose to ignore .
The only reason you have for your argument that hell is not forever , and khalidun & abada do not mean forever , eternal or everlasting is the presence of the creator's attribute of "Al Rahman and Al Rahim or the merciful as you put it . You claim that due to the Creator being merciful , no one is going to be punished in hell forever , as it will contradict the attributes of Al Rahman and Al Rahim .
Again forgive me if it seems like i ignored your cited references. That is not my intention. The latter part of my previous response was actually my personal interpretation of those verses you cited.
Please read again what i have said before, i did not said "hell is not forever", but rather for as long as it (the soul) lives (it's destructing itself). The notion that i'm against is in God deliberately re-creating His creations, His souls and then punishing/torturing them in perfect, absolute eternity. On the other hand, from the viewpoint of the soul itself, it would definitely be forever (i.e. the 'timeframe' of its existence is only since Creation --> its own destruction).
Allow me to remind you that "the merciful" has been around forever , and countless of tribes , nations and peoples of the continents had been wiped off the face of this earth almost entirely in some cases for whatever trangressions that they committed . Where was the mercy then ?
Thanks for the reminder. The mercy is in the stopping of their regressing culture for the believers and others to thrive. That's how you can see the "transgressions" as self-destructive. On top of all that, the "wiping off" is nothing but physical extermination (largely irrelevant to their spiritual development), while the destruction of the soul/spiritual are done by themselves to themselves. And physical extermination is justifiable as a stopping measure because their regressive nature affects a great number of other people's lives (those exterminated must have received strong warnings prior to their execution), just as capital punishment is justifiable in the light of security for the rest of the society.
What is there to stop "The Merciful" from committing sinners or transgressors to everlasting hell ?
Everlasting, as in perfectly eternal, hell? Then i think, His Mercy. On the other side, what is there to stop any human being from receiving His Mercy? The answer is its own will ('eternal' from its own point of view) not to receive Mercy.
If we were to rely solely on the belief that because the creator is merciful and therefore , there is not going to be an everlasting rewards and punishments , then why does the creator bother to send countless of messengers with the book of guidance , criterion , the great reading if Al Rahman & Al rahim suffice , even adequate ?
There is a bit of a 'leap in logic' in the above if(and therefore)-then-why question, but for the sake of brevity The revelations and the messengers are all part of His Mercy (rahmah). It is of course of the Creator's greatest interest to have His creations return to Him in the best manner possible, rather than to have them go through what seems to be "endless" suffering (as caused by themselves) which leads to destruction. Ergo, the guidance.
Finally , the onus of proof is on you , since you are the one that hold the position of "Hell is not eternal , forever or everlasting" as well as refusing to believe that the meanings of Khalidun and Abada is staying forever , eternal , and everlasting as evidenced by the relevant verses cited on this page by other posters and by me .
Peace
Please read again my above response re foreverness. Thank you.
Peace on you too
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Salam,
To answer this question from the Quran, the answer is both "yes" and "no".
Hell is eternal, in the sence that none of those who are committed to it will never be given respite or allowed to leave (4169).
Hell is not eternal, in the sence that Hell itself will demise when the universe demises (11106-107).
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Peace
I believe that its most likely eternal.
Hell does not purify , "Allah will not speak to them on the day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them". In similar manner God will not purify those who take a small price for their oaths & His covenant , but one who aknowledges their faults may be purified with alms . God purifies "whom He pleases" .
It is said of the followed and their followers, "Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they will not escape from the Fire." , but they want to get out . Karijeen comes from kh-ra-jim . In verses 80-82 of the 2nd chapter God makes a point that khalidun , from kh-l-d is opposed to "a few numbered days " espoused by a particular party of people. MaAAdoodatan is counted ones from Ayn-Dal .
Joe
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Peace
A wise person I know once told me that "hell" was separation from G-d. (Isn't that painful? Isn't the worst physical pain we can imagine or have experienced a burning, tearing pain? How painful is that for our soul to experience? Maybe this is just a really good metaphor from G-d. . . however, have you ever lost yourself and felt completely cut off from G-d in this life? Didn't it tear you apart, emotionally?)
Were you speaking with a Jew? I did not think they believed in a Hell. Perhaps some sect does. In Dante's Inferno the farthest from God are encased in ice. I think there is a searing, burning pain one experiences from the freezing cold.
She also said that "heaven" was being in the presence of G-d. (Compare any experience you've had of "heaven" (a feeling of unity, or the presence of G-d in your life) and "hell" (that separateness I described above)).
Yes, the Quran says that "to Allah (G-d) we will return.I do believe these are conditions we are living with on earth and can and do cultivate within ourselves.
Joe
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I see that even among us Quranists there are diferent opinions. I sugest that we should all still consider each other to be part of the same faith/Islam but have diferent opinions. I am not particularly interested in others understanding the Quran same as my self.
I simply read the Quran and if something seems not probable I try to discus it wich is obviously why I started this thread. I personaly would do some things diferently if it was up to me. But Its not up to me, its up to God.
Again, it says in many places that Hell is eternal and no one has given me a satisfying answer as to why those verses mean otherwise.
All these reasons are why I have left Islam in the past and why I ventured into Deism because over there I can create a God that makes the most sense to me wich is not nececerily enginering him but trying to reason as much as posible.
However I am very much interested in the truth about God and to me after reading the Quran it simply seems as if there is eternal hell. Now eternal hell seems so rough that I am finding it hard to believe in those verses wich is why I started this thread.
Thanks
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I see that even among us Quranists there are diferent opinions. I sugest that we should all still consider each other to be part of the same faith/Islam but have diferent opinions. I am not particularly interested in others understanding the Quran same as my self.
I simply read the Quran and if something seems not probable I try to discus it wich is obviously why I started this thread. I personaly would do some things diferently if it was up to me. But Its not up to me, its up to God.
Again, it says in many places that Hell is eternal and no one has given me a satisfying answer as to why those verses mean otherwise.
All these reasons are why I have left Islam in the past and why I ventured into Deism because over there I can create a God that makes the most sense to me wich is not nececerily enginering him but trying to reason as much as posible.
However I am very much interested in the truth about God and to me after reading the Quran it simply seems as if there is eternal hell. Now eternal hell seems so rough that I am finding it hard to believe in those verses wich is why I started this thread.
Thanks
To understand eternity in this world and in the next, understand the creation, starts with a big bang, and ends with a big implosion, and than the cycle repeats, the next universe the same, starts with a big bang, and ends with a big implosion, as god says in the verses 2130 and 21104 , and eternity is in between these 2 events of creation, the next <will be better , because it's the evolution of the universe itself.
The big bang
Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe? 2130
The big implosion , than repeats the cycle
The Day when We shall roll up the heavens as a recorder rolleth up a written scroll. As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it. (It is) a promise (binding) upon Us. Lo! We are to perform it 21104
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I do agree with loxbox13.
Perhaps, take note from 2118, maybe the end of this cycle is when all truth is distinguished from all falsehood, whatever that means. Then there would be no real purpose for the universe quranically.
Even though there is an eternity between now and the end, there is still an end. According to the quran, this is the first creation? Or is this perhaps #290242094831110 and we are completely unawares?
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Looking for something else I found this message in another thread
Quote from Ashraf on September 14, 2009, 014843 AM
Dear Samia,I want to learn and hope you dont mind to reply
Is it wrong if i understand the verse 2203 as follows
Minimum "ma3doodat" >>> two days
Maximum "ma3doodat" >>> varies (3 or 4 or 7 etc) but preferably 10, however 10 is not a mandatory.The only 10 that I consider a preferred count was just my understanding base on "hint" in 2196 and 892. (is there anything else?)
However 10 days in 2196 is for hajj I am not sure whether I can overconfidantly say so that 10 days apply to Ramadhan as well.
My understanding at this moment is that Allah give His mercy (leeway) for us to decide the max no of days to our personal preference/ability this time around, but minimum is two. (This stand is still subject to debate/correction)
On other note Allah is very specific with the number of siyaam ie. 3 days (589), 10 days (2196). Any feedback appreciated.
Peace, Ashraf
Samia says
Welcome back! It's been almost a year...I wouldn't consider 2 as part of ma3duudat, since it's mentioned as an exception for special circumsatnces of what would be accepted outside the ma3duudaat.
Minimum of ma3duudat 3
Maximum 10http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg222598#msg222598
It may be of interest regarding the aya 2.80 which has been mentioned in this thread repeatedly.
There is just one difference, in 2.203 says ayam ma3dudaat (adjective in plural), and in 2.80 says ayam ma3duda (adjective in singular).
As far as I know in plural of things, adjectives are normally in singular feminine, so for me the question is why in 2.203 is in plural and whether or not it affects to the number of days that that come in that range.
Salaam
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I do agree with loxbox13.
Perhaps, take note from 2118, maybe the end of this cycle is when all truth is distinguished from all falsehood, whatever that means. Then there would be no real purpose for the universe quranically.
Even though there is an eternity between now and the end, there is still an end. According to the quran, this is the first creation? Or is this perhaps #290242094831110 and we are completely unawares?
#290242094831110
This number its too much, but it's a possibility, there's no way wa can knowI believe it's the second for us as humans, and there will be another one, called the heareafter
How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return 228
They say Our Lord! Twice hast Thou made us die, and twice hast Thou made us live. Now we confess our sins. Is there any way to go out? 4011
So maybe in the Universe before this, we existed for the 1st time, as a trial or something, or primitive beigns who needed another start from zero for evolution, if this is true, than the next world we'll be even more sophisticated lol , more evolution, because even the universe gets evolution.
It's just my understanding of these ayats, i could be wrong, but been dead than alive than dead than again alive, and twise so , before the first death, than we existed or not ? a dead man is a man that existed I believe. -
What I am more interested in is whether or not anyone has ever been to this horrible place called Hell.
Is this how we know about it? Or is it just another myth to keep us in fear of whoever runs the press.... -
Were you speaking with a Jew? I did not think they believed in a Hell.
Then, perhaps, we ought to hear them out on the subject, instead of just claiming a culture for our own and scattering the ashes about.
Salaam.
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Here is the answer to this thread
007040 - Surely (as for) those who reject Our communications and turn away from them haughtily, the doors of heaven shall not be opened for them, nor shall they enter the garden until the camel pass through the eye of the needle; and thus do We reward the guilty.
So all that needs to be done is to fit a camel through a pinhole. Any takers willing to save the stupidest segment of humanity from the fires of hell?
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This is an interesting thread.
Ok... So the Jewish perspective on the afterlife.... there is no official Jewish perspective on the afterlife. Jews believe everything from "when you die its over" to transmigration of the soul. Since there is no official view, people tend not to talk about it too much.
If we operate from the clear stance that Allah is Merciful and Compassionate, then we would have to say that hell is more of a deterrent for those who refuse to submit to him. And those who while in hell appeal to his mercy and compassion may receive that. However, those who still refuse would remain there indefinitely. Besides if Allah said if you fornicate you will endure 25minutes of hell and then you go to heaven, one might think "25 minutes... I can do that". I think a soul is in hell if they are lost from Allah and can't find him or refuse to find him. If a soul refuses to submit then hell would be eternal. However, this is my opinion.
Would love to hear other's opinions.
Pel I can appreciate that you are a seeker and how difficult that can be. However, one thing you will find is that all religions even deism have something about them you will not like. You need to develop faith. Faith is believing in something that cannot be proved. I think you need to draw close to Allah and see what he wants for you. Then you can build a solid relationship with Allah. Don't worry about rituals or how to do them correctly, sit quietly, pray, study and look for Allah's work in your life and in those around you. Then you will develop faith.
Peace, Salam, Shalom
JewishDude
