Mushu's thoughts on hajj

Wakas

peace,

You might find Anwar's article interesting
http//web.archive.org/web/20050206231622/peopleprogod.org/pilgrimage.html

I agree that al bait al haram and al bait al atiq are probably the same thing. Do you believe the bait mentioned in 2125, 396 and 397 are al bait al haram?

No, but I dont consider them totally different things.

I am writing the article in parts. I finished the SuJuD part, I dont know if you saw it
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html
I dont expect to complete it for at least a few months.

Try the search function and type in "shave" and "Wakas" as the author, a few come up.

I forgot to say in that thread I linked you to, I wrote later that al masjid al haram is best rendered as "the inviolable time of SJD" referring to the restriction period/months. Try considering this concept during your studies, you may find it helpful.

Mushu

Try the search function and type in "shave" and "Wakas" as the author, a few come up.

Shave Wakas...okay got it. Thanks.

abdalquran

Wow Mushy ! AWESOME flow of thoughts there!

Lets also not forget that Q says 'wa adhnanin FEE an-naas BIL hajj' (22/27). As you know, I dont like these 'dodgy' prepositions. 'fee' is 'in' and 'bi' is 'with'. So its not calling mankind to the hajj. Its rather doing so WITH the hajj. Why? because once u get the hajj (establishment of God's insitution), the rest of the aya happens..'they come to you'..

Bait al-ateeq, Al-bait and bait al-ma3moor are different stages of the institution. You can discern this stage thing by reading the suras in which they appear (22, 2 and 52 respectively). As Wakas says, not totally different but not totally the same either.

About 2/158, the context starts with 2/153 which is to seek optimum performance with sabr and salat. Then comes the test and those in 'salawat' with Allah, they're able to take the test (2/157). Then comes 158 which describes the state of zero growth and rest (safa and marwah). It's ok to hover in these two states when you're challenging the house (hajj al-bait) or fertilising it (ita3mara) as long as you voluntarily do good (tatawwa khair).

I cant wait to see more of this, guys! Mushy, thank your mum for getting you thinking about this P

Wakas

You are right, AFAIK no building or perhaps even inanimate object is ever called a "guidance" in AQ. I noticed this also. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, let me know.

I should clarify, I meant no inanimate object without something instructional within it, thus revelation counts, a building does not.

Mushu

Peace all,

Wow Mushy ! AWESOME flow of thoughts there!

Thanks bro! You're definitely one of my inspirations! D

Lets also not forget that Q says 'wa adhnanin FEE an-naas BIL hajj' (22/27). As you know, I dont like these 'dodgy' prepositions. 'fee' is 'in' and 'bi' is 'with'. So its not calling mankind to the hajj. Its rather doing so WITH the hajj. Why? because once u get the hajj (establishment of God's insitution), the rest of the aya happens..'they come to you'..

Bait al-ateeq, Al-bait and bait al-ma3moor are different stages of the institution. You can discern this stage thing by reading the suras in which they appear (22, 2 and 52 respectively). As Wakas says, not totally different but not totally the same either.

Yep, I definitely need to gather my thoughts on this, as I can see I've mixed up a lot of issues and haven't paid close enough attention to certain prepositions. Also, Jack contributed some interesting ideas to me yesterday, which I'll try and incorporate into my next set of notes.

About 2/158, the context starts with 2/153 which is to seek optimum performance with sabr and salat. Then comes the test and those in 'salawat' with Allah, they're able to take the test (2/157). Then comes 158 which describes the state of zero growth and rest (safa and marwah). It's ok to hover in these two states when you're challenging the house (hajj al-bait) or fertilising it (ita3mara) as long as you voluntarily do good (tatawwa khair).

Very interesting...

I cant wait to see more of this, guys! Mushy, thank your mum for getting you thinking about this

Yea man, she definitely gave me the kick to look into this! I agree with you and Wakas that these are exciting times.

abdalquran

Thanks bro, glad the heresy is infecting the 'yoof' of today

You've given me food for thought as well. How the heck is one centre gonna be 'guidance for the worlds'. Thats nonsense. And it just hit me as well, the 'imamate' of Ibrahim (imam for mankind - 2/124) is a model based thing (thats what imam means, btw). Therefore the house should also be a model which we export (almost like marxism). It can then be adjusted for local communities. It's not a supremacist model.

What else has Jack said? Bloody yank's kept all the good stuff to himself, it seems!

Jafar

Thanks Mushu,

I pretty much agree with your thought and conclusion.

I might want to add few things..

I have observe how "THE FESTIVALS" can be commonly found nearly in every other culture around the globe with the following characteristics.

A gathering of people within that region/area regardless of their belief / sects or others
The objective of such gatherings is basically a "Thanksgiving event" usually after harvest time or season.
They're having meals together to rejoice or just to catch up on the latest happenings with each others..
On some instances there's also a 'trading of gifts' happening between each others.

You can find such "FESTIVAL EVENT" from Japan, China, Europe, Thailand and others.
The time of THE FESTIVALS varied between those cultures.
Accordingly the place of such FESTIVALS are also varied.
I DON"T AGREE that within such FESTIVAL/HAJJ it is MANDATORY to promote the QURAN (as every other people had their own wisdom teachings)
A requirement to promote QURAN specifically might transform such beautiful non-sectarian event into a sectarian / cultic event.
However I do agree that within such Festival there should be some kind of discussion or teachings going on to enrich the wisdom and knowledge of such community.

Nevertheless, I do share the same opinion that what's happening in Saudi Arabia "FESTIVAL/HAJJ" today are clearly

A sectarian / cultic event which limited the participant only for those who are a member of such sect or cult
Hardly any wisdom teachings involved on those series of events.
It contains ridiculous sectarian rites which doesn't enrich one's wisdom or knowledge.
The ridiculous rites are so tiring and 'dangerous', especially for the elders and it has been proven by the number of DEATH/CASUALTIES every year due to people participating on such ridiculous and fruitless rites. Which oddly enough the cult members always sees such CASUALTIES / DEATH as NORMALITY! And they believes people who died during those cultic events are HEROES! and automatically granted a place in Heaven!

To really understand why such thing has take place and shaped as such, we need to understand the historical origins of such event, especially the ambiance / cultural environment around that region between 2500 up to 1500 years ago.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_religion
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgia
Happy reading and researching..

"To every Group Of People (Ummatin) We have appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow let them not then dispute with thee on the matter, but do thou invite (them) to thy Lord for thou art assuredly on the Right Way."
AL-HAJJ (THE FESTIVAL) 67

Salam / Peace

Jack

What else has Jack said? Bloody yank's kept all the good stuff to himself, it seems!

D yeah I was just telling him about the discussion we had previously.

Great thread btw, I'm just trying to take it all in.

yesuri2000

Salam Mushu

Really enjoyed your article. I have been thinking about Hajj a lot recently. I'm in two minds as to whether or not I should ever go.
A friend from work came back from it recently and some of the things she told me just amazed me. For example depending on how much you pay you will end in a tent with nice carpets, beds, chandelier lighting at the top end of the spectrum and the other end you might just get a blanket to cover yourself with and just sleep on the floor. Also depending on much you can afford you will have to walk through the whole process or you can get a private bus for you and your group to take you between each destination of the route.

All these things just make me wonder, where is the so called equality that Muslims promote about hajj? whats the point of things like the dress code which makes all the men dress in the same manner so that we are equal in front of god, yet clearly depending on where you come from and how much money you can spend the whole experience is not equal at all.

Also your point regarding verse 397 translating the word Kanaa as is instead of was. Makes me wonder what else has not been translated exactly and what the reasons are for the way verses are translated.

abdalquran

Bruv, why dont you go as a cultural observer? That's the capacity in which I go to the masjid.

Mushu said to me yesterday, we cannot hope to make inroads into the Muslim community if we shun them. I dont feel Im being a hypocrite by participating in the ritual salat at the masjid (which I dont believe came from Allah). I just see it as part of my culture.

Mushu

I DON"T AGREE that within such FESTIVAL/HAJJ it is MANDATORY to promote the QURAN (as every other people had their own wisdom teachings)
A requirement to promote QURAN specifically might transform such beautiful non-sectarian event into a sectarian / cultic event.
However I do agree that within such Festival there should be some kind of discussion or teachings going on to enrich the wisdom and knowledge of such community.

Thanks for your thoughts. Al bait is described as a guidance to the worlds, so by definition it must enact quran in some way. A festival does not qualify as a guidance for mankind.

Salam Mushu

Really enjoyed your article. I have been thinking about Hajj a lot recently. I'm in two minds as to whether or not I should ever go.
A friend from work came back from it recently and some of the things she told me just amazed me. For example depending on how much you pay you will end in a tent with nice carpets, beds, chandelier lighting at the top end of the spectrum and the other end you might just get a blanket to cover yourself with and just sleep on the floor. Also depending on much you can afford you will have to walk through the whole process or you can get a private bus for you and your group to take you between each destination of the route.

All these things just make me wonder, where is the so called equality that Muslims promote about hajj? whats the point of things like the dress code which makes all the men dress in the same manner so that we are equal in front of god, yet clearly depending on where you come from and how much money you can spend the whole experience is not equal at all.

Also your point regarding verse 397 translating the word Kanaa as is instead of was. Makes me wonder what else has not been translated exactly and what the reasons are for the way verses are translated.

Thanks yesuri. Yea I've had the same thoughts as you. I got thinking after someone in my family came back from hajj recently and was telling me about the utter madness that goes on there.

As for translations, none of them are perfect so the best thing is to refer to the Arabic.

Thanks bro, glad the heresy is infecting the 'yoof' of today

You've given me food for thought as well. How the heck is one centre gonna be 'guidance for the worlds'. Thats nonsense. And it just hit me as well, the 'imamate' of Ibrahim (imam for mankind - 2/124) is a model based thing (thats what imam means, btw). Therefore the house should also be a model which we export (almost like marxism). It can then be adjusted for local communities. It's not a supremacist model.

Dude, I ain't a 'yoof'!

The link between the universal imamate of Ibrahim and how al bait is described was one of the first things I noticed when going over these verses. It makes me wonder about other aspects of the deen as well...

Jafar

Thanks for your thoughts. Al bait is described as a guidance to the worlds, so by definition it must enact quran in some way. A festival does not qualify as a guidance for mankind.

LOL..
Then how could you explain in which

Jesus teaches wisdom in Jerusalem
Abraham teaches wisdom in his own house which functioned as free hotel for travelers..
And millions others which teaches wisdom in myriad of places.
WITHOUT THE HELP OR EVER MENTIONING THE QURAN?

What I'm trying to do is to avoid people 'over-idolizing' the Quran..
God doesn't need the Quran to teach wisdom to people..
And Wisdom definitely doesn't contained only in the Quran..

Salam / Peace

Mushu

LOL..
Then how could you explain in which

Jesus teaches wisdom in Jerusalem
Abraham teaches wisdom in his own house which functioned as free hotel for travelers..
And millions others which teaches wisdom in myriad of places.
WITHOUT THE HELP OR EVER MENTIONING THE QURAN?

What's that got to do with al bait? Why is al bait described as a guidance to the worlds? What does that mean?

What I'm trying to do is to avoid people 'over-idolizing' the Quran..
God doesn't need the Quran to teach wisdom to people..
And Wisdom definitely doesn't contained only in the Quran..

Salam / Peace

What has hijjul-bait got to do with idolising quran?

Wakas

I think what Jafar is saying is HJJ, al bayt etc were done pre-AQ, thus it is not necessarily tied with AQ. But I can see why one would link it now, since we are living in a post-AQ period.

Mushu

I think what Jafar is saying is HJJ, al bayt etc were done pre-AQ, thus it is not necessarily tied with AQ. But I can see why one would link it now, since we are living in a post-AQ period.

Sure, but you would agree that even pre-aq al bait was a guidance to mankind? So it must have been tied to the guidance coming from Allah, whatever that may have been. Otherwise it would fail to qualify as a guidance for mankind, given that al bait in itself can't do anything.

I can't see how anyone can get away from the link between al bait and al quran, so to suggest hijjul-bait can be done without quran is like saying you can guide people to Allah without His guidance.

Wakas

Sure, but you would agree that even pre-aq al bait was a guidance to mankind?

Of course.

I can't see how anyone can get away from the link between al bait and al quran, so to suggest hijjul-bait can be done without quran is like saying you can guide people to Allah without His guidance.

I'm not sure who is saying that.

Abraham was able to establish a house/bayt for the beings, and he used what he had in his time. We would use what we have in our time.

Hence 396 opening with "first" then switching from past to present address mid 397 onwards.

Mushu

I'm not sure who is saying that.

That's what I understood from bro Jafar's post

I DON"T AGREE that within such FESTIVAL/HAJJ it is MANDATORY to promote the QURAN (as every other people had their own wisdom teachings)

If the very function of al bait is to guide mankind, how can it fulfil that by not using aq? As far as my reading goes, you can't separate al bait from The Scripture.

If it doesn't promote aq then it can no longer be considered al bait. Like a school that doesn't teach anything can not be defined a school.

Wakas

There is no need for a black/white approach, from either side.

The very fact one is having a HJJ is promoting AQ, or at least a certain % of it.

If you then set parameters/activities/etc of HJJ using AQ, then again, you will be promoting AQ, directly or indirectly.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "promotion of AQ".

Mushu

There is no need for a black/white approach, from either side.

To be fair, I wasn't looking for a black/white answer to this.

The very fact one is having a HJJ is promoting AQ, or at least a certain % of it.

If you then set parameters/activities/etc of HJJ using AQ, then again, you will be promoting AQ, directly or indirectly.

Either way, you're using aq. I don't want to argue for the sake of it, as I actually think we agree on this. I was questioning the idea that hijjul-bait could be done without aq, which is what I believe Jafar was suggesting.

Jafar

Either way, you're using aq. I don't want to argue for the sake of it, as I actually think we agree on this. I was questioning the idea that hijjul-bait could be done without aq, which is what I believe Jafar was suggesting.

Correct..

Many "Goodness" can be done without AQ.
As evidenced by the stories found within AQ.
How many "Good people" done many "Good deeds" without AQ.
AQ is NOT THE ONLY SOURCE of Goodness / Knowledge / Guidance / Wisdom.
God is just and kind he gives and share His wisdom to everyone / every people through different means and context.
Read "The seed parable" as found in the AQ.

"Al bait THE PLACE OF GATHERINGS should be a place of guidance for mankind because it promotes the teachings of al kitab GOODNESS AND WISDOM through the hajj FESTIVAL invitation that goes out to everyone."

Salam / Peace