Mushu's thoughts on hajj

Jack

What else has Jack said? Bloody yank's kept all the good stuff to himself, it seems!

D yeah I was just telling him about the discussion we had previously.

Great thread btw, I'm just trying to take it all in.

yesuri2000

Salam Mushu

Really enjoyed your article. I have been thinking about Hajj a lot recently. I'm in two minds as to whether or not I should ever go.
A friend from work came back from it recently and some of the things she told me just amazed me. For example depending on how much you pay you will end in a tent with nice carpets, beds, chandelier lighting at the top end of the spectrum and the other end you might just get a blanket to cover yourself with and just sleep on the floor. Also depending on much you can afford you will have to walk through the whole process or you can get a private bus for you and your group to take you between each destination of the route.

All these things just make me wonder, where is the so called equality that Muslims promote about hajj? whats the point of things like the dress code which makes all the men dress in the same manner so that we are equal in front of god, yet clearly depending on where you come from and how much money you can spend the whole experience is not equal at all.

Also your point regarding verse 397 translating the word Kanaa as is instead of was. Makes me wonder what else has not been translated exactly and what the reasons are for the way verses are translated.

abdalquran

Bruv, why dont you go as a cultural observer? That's the capacity in which I go to the masjid.

Mushu said to me yesterday, we cannot hope to make inroads into the Muslim community if we shun them. I dont feel Im being a hypocrite by participating in the ritual salat at the masjid (which I dont believe came from Allah). I just see it as part of my culture.

Mushu

I DON"T AGREE that within such FESTIVAL/HAJJ it is MANDATORY to promote the QURAN (as every other people had their own wisdom teachings)
A requirement to promote QURAN specifically might transform such beautiful non-sectarian event into a sectarian / cultic event.
However I do agree that within such Festival there should be some kind of discussion or teachings going on to enrich the wisdom and knowledge of such community.

Thanks for your thoughts. Al bait is described as a guidance to the worlds, so by definition it must enact quran in some way. A festival does not qualify as a guidance for mankind.

Salam Mushu

Really enjoyed your article. I have been thinking about Hajj a lot recently. I'm in two minds as to whether or not I should ever go.
A friend from work came back from it recently and some of the things she told me just amazed me. For example depending on how much you pay you will end in a tent with nice carpets, beds, chandelier lighting at the top end of the spectrum and the other end you might just get a blanket to cover yourself with and just sleep on the floor. Also depending on much you can afford you will have to walk through the whole process or you can get a private bus for you and your group to take you between each destination of the route.

All these things just make me wonder, where is the so called equality that Muslims promote about hajj? whats the point of things like the dress code which makes all the men dress in the same manner so that we are equal in front of god, yet clearly depending on where you come from and how much money you can spend the whole experience is not equal at all.

Also your point regarding verse 397 translating the word Kanaa as is instead of was. Makes me wonder what else has not been translated exactly and what the reasons are for the way verses are translated.

Thanks yesuri. Yea I've had the same thoughts as you. I got thinking after someone in my family came back from hajj recently and was telling me about the utter madness that goes on there.

As for translations, none of them are perfect so the best thing is to refer to the Arabic.

Thanks bro, glad the heresy is infecting the 'yoof' of today

You've given me food for thought as well. How the heck is one centre gonna be 'guidance for the worlds'. Thats nonsense. And it just hit me as well, the 'imamate' of Ibrahim (imam for mankind - 2/124) is a model based thing (thats what imam means, btw). Therefore the house should also be a model which we export (almost like marxism). It can then be adjusted for local communities. It's not a supremacist model.

Dude, I ain't a 'yoof'!

The link between the universal imamate of Ibrahim and how al bait is described was one of the first things I noticed when going over these verses. It makes me wonder about other aspects of the deen as well...

Jafar

Thanks for your thoughts. Al bait is described as a guidance to the worlds, so by definition it must enact quran in some way. A festival does not qualify as a guidance for mankind.

LOL..
Then how could you explain in which

Jesus teaches wisdom in Jerusalem
Abraham teaches wisdom in his own house which functioned as free hotel for travelers..
And millions others which teaches wisdom in myriad of places.
WITHOUT THE HELP OR EVER MENTIONING THE QURAN?

What I'm trying to do is to avoid people 'over-idolizing' the Quran..
God doesn't need the Quran to teach wisdom to people..
And Wisdom definitely doesn't contained only in the Quran..

Salam / Peace

Mushu

LOL..
Then how could you explain in which

Jesus teaches wisdom in Jerusalem
Abraham teaches wisdom in his own house which functioned as free hotel for travelers..
And millions others which teaches wisdom in myriad of places.
WITHOUT THE HELP OR EVER MENTIONING THE QURAN?

What's that got to do with al bait? Why is al bait described as a guidance to the worlds? What does that mean?

What I'm trying to do is to avoid people 'over-idolizing' the Quran..
God doesn't need the Quran to teach wisdom to people..
And Wisdom definitely doesn't contained only in the Quran..

Salam / Peace

What has hijjul-bait got to do with idolising quran?

Wakas

I think what Jafar is saying is HJJ, al bayt etc were done pre-AQ, thus it is not necessarily tied with AQ. But I can see why one would link it now, since we are living in a post-AQ period.

Mushu

I think what Jafar is saying is HJJ, al bayt etc were done pre-AQ, thus it is not necessarily tied with AQ. But I can see why one would link it now, since we are living in a post-AQ period.

Sure, but you would agree that even pre-aq al bait was a guidance to mankind? So it must have been tied to the guidance coming from Allah, whatever that may have been. Otherwise it would fail to qualify as a guidance for mankind, given that al bait in itself can't do anything.

I can't see how anyone can get away from the link between al bait and al quran, so to suggest hijjul-bait can be done without quran is like saying you can guide people to Allah without His guidance.

Wakas

Sure, but you would agree that even pre-aq al bait was a guidance to mankind?

Of course.

I can't see how anyone can get away from the link between al bait and al quran, so to suggest hijjul-bait can be done without quran is like saying you can guide people to Allah without His guidance.

I'm not sure who is saying that.

Abraham was able to establish a house/bayt for the beings, and he used what he had in his time. We would use what we have in our time.

Hence 396 opening with "first" then switching from past to present address mid 397 onwards.

Mushu

I'm not sure who is saying that.

That's what I understood from bro Jafar's post

I DON"T AGREE that within such FESTIVAL/HAJJ it is MANDATORY to promote the QURAN (as every other people had their own wisdom teachings)

If the very function of al bait is to guide mankind, how can it fulfil that by not using aq? As far as my reading goes, you can't separate al bait from The Scripture.

If it doesn't promote aq then it can no longer be considered al bait. Like a school that doesn't teach anything can not be defined a school.

Wakas

There is no need for a black/white approach, from either side.

The very fact one is having a HJJ is promoting AQ, or at least a certain % of it.

If you then set parameters/activities/etc of HJJ using AQ, then again, you will be promoting AQ, directly or indirectly.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "promotion of AQ".

Mushu

There is no need for a black/white approach, from either side.

To be fair, I wasn't looking for a black/white answer to this.

The very fact one is having a HJJ is promoting AQ, or at least a certain % of it.

If you then set parameters/activities/etc of HJJ using AQ, then again, you will be promoting AQ, directly or indirectly.

Either way, you're using aq. I don't want to argue for the sake of it, as I actually think we agree on this. I was questioning the idea that hijjul-bait could be done without aq, which is what I believe Jafar was suggesting.

Jafar

Either way, you're using aq. I don't want to argue for the sake of it, as I actually think we agree on this. I was questioning the idea that hijjul-bait could be done without aq, which is what I believe Jafar was suggesting.

Correct..

Many "Goodness" can be done without AQ.
As evidenced by the stories found within AQ.
How many "Good people" done many "Good deeds" without AQ.
AQ is NOT THE ONLY SOURCE of Goodness / Knowledge / Guidance / Wisdom.
God is just and kind he gives and share His wisdom to everyone / every people through different means and context.
Read "The seed parable" as found in the AQ.

"Al bait THE PLACE OF GATHERINGS should be a place of guidance for mankind because it promotes the teachings of al kitab GOODNESS AND WISDOM through the hajj FESTIVAL invitation that goes out to everyone."

Salam / Peace

Mushu

"Al bait THE PLACE OF GATHERINGS should be a place of guidance for mankind because it promotes the teachings of al kitab GOODNESS AND WISDOM through the hajj FESTIVAL invitation that goes out to everyone."

Not sure why you're crossing out those terms, when those terms are used in aq...

What is your understanding of al bait? You've replaced it as 'place of gathering', yet haven't explained why. Could you explain why al bait = place of gathering and also why you think al bait is described as a guidance for the worlds in aq?

Jafar

Not sure why you're crossing out those terms, when those terms are used in aq...

What is your understanding of al bait? You've replaced it as 'place of gathering', yet haven't explained why. Could you explain why al bait = place of gathering and also why you think al bait is described as a guidance for the worlds in aq?

Al Bait = Literally THE HOUSE contextual meanings PLACE OF GATHERINGS
Hajj = GATHERING/FESTIVAL

Reason for crossing out those two words. Is an alias from 'arabic terms'.
It's much better to communicate to people using their own language rather than 'foreign language' to avoid any misunderstanding.

Now regarding "Al Bait at Bakka a.k.a The House at Bakka", I believe it refers to historical ancient site
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baalbek

Where it used to be 'the place of gatherings' for many nations as it's situated along the busiest trade route of ancient times within middle east region.

That is what makes the place 'strategically important' to the 'conqueror', because people from many nations used to gather there. It is one of the compelling reasons why the Greeks and the Romans build a temple of their gods on it. In hope that people of many nations shall turn to 'their official religion' and as thus fell under their 'sphere of influence'.

The place indeed has shifted from it's original intention of "PLACE OF GATHERINGS" where many nations (but not all nations) could seek peace, wisdom and guidance into yet another sectarian temple of worship to the gods. Before it's destruction and desolation in 300 AD by 'christian' roman emperors. As it was regarded that the place has become a 'temple of idols'.

Nevertheless the actual location for "place of gatherings" is not important, it could be anywhere and it could also be spread regionally to make it easier for people to go and gather there.

Salam / Peace

Mushu

Al Bait = Literally THE HOUSE contextual meanings PLACE OF GATHERINGS

Okay, but why do you believe al bait = place of gathering?

Also, why does place of gathering = guidance for the worlds?

Reason for crossing out those two words. Is an alias from 'arabic terms'.

Yes, I gathered as much but you're not explaining why you're choosing to translate those words the way you are. I can't see the evidence for making al bait = place of gathering. Nor have you accounted for why al bait is described as guidance for the worlds. How can a place of gathering guide anyone? What happens when there is no gathering at that place, does it stop guiding people?

Jafar

Okay, but why do you believe al bait = place of gathering?

As the name implied; 'the house', there should be people there.
Otherwise it's useless.. an abandoned 'house'..

Also, why does place of gathering = guidance for the worlds?
Yes, I gathered as much but you're not explaining why you're choosing to translate those words the way you are. I can't see the evidence for making al bait = place of gathering. Nor have you accounted for why al bait is described as guidance for the worlds. How can a place of gathering guide anyone?

Let's take a glimpse on how Abraham lived.. from other sources..

He set his house (bayt) as a free hotel & lodging for travelers passing by.
Within, any traveler from any nations / sects / beliefs could find a safe refuge, free meal with merely 'payment' of listening to the host (Abraham) while he speaks during the dinner. Of course the guest can post his questions or propose his own idea (as part of the discussion). And from the Quran, Bible and other sources, I can say that Abraham is a 'logical/critical thinker', oralist with very good skills on proposing and presenting his ideas.

This 'exchange of ideas' and knowledge during such gathering could enlighten people gathered there and apply those 'ideas' he got from such gathering to live a good or better lives.

What happens when there is no gathering at that place, does it stop guiding people?

Of course. how do you harvest wheat when there's no wheat in the field?

Salam / Peace

Mushu

As the name implied; 'the house', there should be people there.
Otherwise it's useless.. an abandoned 'house'..

A house doesn't have to have people there. And yes, an abandoned house is still a house. You still haven't explained to me how you came to the conclusion that al bait = place of gathering. Do you have any quranic evidence?

And again you've ignored my question as to how a place of gathering = a guidance for the worlds. Please could you provide some quranic evidence/reasoning as to why you think a place of gathering acts as a guidance for the worlds.

Let's take a glimpse on how Abraham lived.. from other sources..

Not interested. Please use quran to explain how a place of gathering = guidance for the worlds.

Of course. how do you harvest wheat when there's no wheat in the field?

No idea.

This is becoming somewhat repetitive because you are unable to justify your position using aq.

Jafar

This is becoming somewhat repetitive because you are unable to justify your position using aq.

This is the main issue on YOU then..
A typical Quran cultist reaction, as I have suspected before..
In either case dear Mushu, You have the rights to your own opinion as I have mine..

My main point is this
THERE ARE WISDOM OUTSIDE THE QURAN AND GOD DOESN'T NEED THE QURAN TO TEACH WISDOM OR GIVES ENLIGHTENING/REVELATORY KNOWLEDGE TO ITS CREATION.

Again you are entitled to your own opinion as there are no compulsory in belief, truth stands out clear from error.

Salam / Peace

Mushu

This is the main issue on YOU then..

There's an issue on me? I hope it's not a big issue, I have a bad back...

A typical Quran cultist reaction, as I have suspected before..

Yea, using quran to define terms is pretty cultist. Guilty as charged.

In either case dear Mushu, You have the rights to your own opinion as I have mine..

Of course. Difference is I tried to back my opinion with aq whereas your opinion was based on thin air. Don't get me wrong, thin air is great, I'm sure it has its uses, but I tend to not accept it for discerning haqq from baatil.

My main point is this
THERE ARE WISDOM OUTSIDE THE QURAN AND GOD DOESN'T NEED THE QURAN TO TEACH WISDOM OR GIVES ENLIGHTENING/REVELATORY KNOWLEDGE TO ITS CREATION.

Indeed, and you've gone to great lengths to repeat this at every opportunity. Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with what I was asking from you.

Again you are entitled to your own opinion as there are no compulsory in belief, truth stands out clear from error.

Clearly not for some.

Anyway, no hard feelings. If you ever do manage to figure out how a place of gathering = guidance for the worlds using the quran I'll be very interested in what you have to say.