Hijab: private, apparent & 7 conditions
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Oh wow. So many responses here O_O.
For years, this sort of propaganda has been directed at us, and for a long time women, including myself, have tried to ignore it and not speak up against the continuous attempts at making us feel guilty if we don't want to cover our heads, and at the increasing dominance of the subject in any discussion regarding Muslim women. Doing so, we have been told, means we are not being sisterly, we are being unsupportive of women who fight for their right to wear hijab and so on.
I can see where you?re coming from. But really, I haven?t really encountered many continuous attempts at making me guilty for not covering my heads. I have not been told that I am not being sisterly nor have I been told that I am unsupportive of the women?s rights. I befriend hijabis, I work with hijabis, and traditional muslim brothers. No one has treated me differently nor make any comments regarding my non-observance of the hijabs. It all depends how you treat the situation. If you have problems with women wearing the headscarf for whatever reason, then they will have problems with you not wearing the headscarf. I don?t want to make generalisation based on my own experience though, because it seems you have gone through it differently in such a way that you feel you have been guilt-tripped by traditional muslims around you.
It is fine if you want to stand up to your beliefs. But why post such a pro-hijab article and poem, and assert comments that have negative remarks here? As Mushu stated previously, it appears that you are merely patronising them here (when you are aware that a good amount of people here don?t believe in observing the headscarf). If you want to make your point and defend Qur?anic views on modesty, why don?t you friendly discuss it with those women by quoting Qur?anic verses?
Texts like the above are BS, full of silly stereotypes, patronizing rhetorics and anti-Western propaganda. And the ideology behind the niqab is sick. For a long time we've been bullied into not speaking up against this nonsense while those texts keep popping up everywhere.
For you, the ideology may be totally sick, but for some others, it is their way of expressing their faith. Besides, you do not know what they have gone through, that they decide to wear it on their own will. Don?t get me wrong, I oppose it when niqabs are forced upon the women when they don?t want to wear it. But in the text, it appears that she has made the decision herself based on what the sheikh told her. No one else put it on her. Anyway, it may surprise you that many women take comfort in wearing the niqabs. Many feel closer to God by doing so because they detach themselves from the outside world. Many feel more secure because it lessens the harassment that they experience. Many feel more loving because they get to ?reserve their beauty? for their husbands, and ultimately their way of expressing their love. I do not agree with them, but I can understand to some extent.
The women from the site those texts are taken from are anything but sisterly, btw. As soon as you dare having your own opinion, i.e. in regards to hijab, the saccharine sweetness makes place for a lot of bitter venom. You will get attacked, being accused of being arrogant, not pious enough, rejecting the truth and so on. There is no room for discussion, exchange of thoughts, having your own opinion is a big no-no. Either you follow the view of the scholars, in this case the Salafi scholars, or you're pretty much an unbeliever.
As I have stated previously, you must be living in a totally different world from me. I have always expressed my views on headscarf whenever my friends or relatives bring the topic up (yes I know plenty who post pro-hijab articles), and we do get into a little debate and discussion. But no one has ever said I was arrogant, or immodest, or rejecting the truth. In the end, we always close it with laa kum diinukum wa liyaa diin.
Leyna isn't using the brainwashing card solely because these women are holding a different position. She's merely stating that anyone who believes that God requires (<--absolutely critical phrase) you to cover your entire body is brainwashed. And can any of us here really disagree? We all believe in the qur'an here. Clearly nowhere in the qur'an does it say that God requires such a thing. So, for someone to believe that is the case, well...some level of brainwashing has to be at play here, does it not? Again, what is so "stupid" about what she said?
Misinformation and mistranslation are not necessarily brainwashing. By the way, we are all aware that no verse in the Qur?an tells the women to cover their heads, that is because we have access to unadulterated version of the Qur?an, and enough technology to dissect the Qur?an word by word. But for some people, unfortunately they only have what is in front them, and they cannot afford to learn Arabic. I say that because in a country where I grew up in, had a horribly mistranslated version of the Qur?an, in which, people who don?t understand Arabic will think that covering the whole body is necessary.
For example is the verse 3359 where we understand to mean that the women should lengthen their outer garment when abroad. The key word is outer garment (jilbaab). In Indonesian version, the word jilbaab is left as an Arabic word, so it reads something like, tell the believing women to lengthen their jilbaab over their body when abroad. The word jilbab actually exists in Indonesian dictionary, and it means headscarf. So upon reading such a verse, they will think that it is necessary to cover their body, with oversized headscarf. People already have pre-conceived views of what jilbab is, and it?s the same case with salaat, hajj etc. That does not necessarily mean that they are brainwashed. Misinformed, yes. I believe it is more due to the evolution of language, and people?s current methodology in translating and interpreting ancient texts (in this case, the Qur?an), rather than someone deliberately trying to brainwash the readers.
Not everyone understands Arabic root word system to understand what khimar, jilbaab etc really mean, and not everyone has the technology or resources to translate the Qur?an word by word. I personally was ready to put on the headscarf, because the Indonesian translation of the Qur?an that I had, clearly said that I had to wear a jilbab.
That goes with some Englist translated Qur?an too. Many translations actually translate khimar as a veil or a headscarf, so for some people, it is ?clear? for them to cover-up. Brainwashed? Maybe, maybe not. I?d say misinformed.
I take issue with this. Brainwashing is very much a crime. It is not just relegated to one individual. It feeds upon itself, it festers, and spreads. On one level, a woman is just choosing to believe however she believes, but on another, she is acting as a conduit through which these falsehoods are spreading themselves.
While brainwashing is a crime, being brainwashed is not. She is more of a victim of brainwashing or rather, mental-slavery where she is being controlled by her ideology. Her intention is not to incite harm, hatred or female inferiority, what drove her in the first place is her desire to get closer to God. Yes, she may be preaching to others about the greatness of wearing the headscarf/body covering, but essentially it is up to every individual to take her words or not. It?s their own free will, the woman is not forcing other women to wear the covering. She merely illustrated her own personal experience in covering up, which have been liberating and enlightening.
What's also stupid is that the basis of her entire argument was that these hijabis in particular patronise non-hijabis (<-- absolutely critical point). So to then call these women 'brainwashed' is what, exactly? Respectful? Productive? Reasonable? No, it's patronising.
While I want to refrain from using the word ?stupid?, I?ll say it is ironic and serves no purpose, to patronise others for patronising us. It?ll end up in an endless cycle, and nothing done.
Which is a battle each and every one of us fights every day of our lives. Misinformation leading to misunderstanding does not equate to brainwashing.
Ditto. Many of us are still in the process of unlearning the falsehood that is being taught to us, we don?t have the absolute knowledge. We are misinformed in certain areas, and our duty to strive for knowledge.
We cannot be 100% certain that we know all truth. We take something as the truth because we think that it is logical and gives us peace by applying it. In these women?s case, they think the covering is logical and they obtain comfort by doing so. So, it is their truth. We may not agree, but hey, each to their own. If you think these women are brainwashed or oppressed or mentally enslaved etc, by all means, do something constructive. Dissect their live experiences, understand their minds and thoughts, and try educate them in the best, friendliest manner, using Qur?anic evidence. Having a go at them here, serves no purpose really.
Forgive me if I think like this, Leyna. But I did get the impression that you were making fun of the hijabi sister by posting those emoticons along with the poem. It is her life experience, her battle in life and something that is obviously dear to her heart, and to invalidate that just because you don?t believe the same way is disheartening. Sure, she may put forward the whole ?omg-the-world-is-full-of-lust?, but that is what she is perceiving and experiencing right now.
In regards to CD?s post about ?God requires such and such?, well, her methodology of understanding the Qur?an concludes that women are required to cover up. For us, it is ?clearly not true?, but in her case, it is ?clearly true?, because we have different methodology. And each of us is content with our approach, with no one being forced into doing so.
I used to have a beard (long sunni beard)and considered it obligatory. Now are you claiming I was brainwashed? I will object even now to anyone suggesting I was brainwashed into keeping a beard. My (flawed) methodology led me to believe it was necessary, and I chose that path because it seemed to be the best. I was wrong, but why does that then make me brainwashed? Now if you say 'Oh no Mushu, obviously you weren't brainwashed, I'm talking about the others', I would ask how you're objectively differentiating between such people?
We?ve all been ?brainwashed? into doing something. Our approach in life, the way we perceive something, the way we behave are shaped by our environment and experience. Your past ?Islamic-learning environment? led you to believe that sporting a beard was the best path, and you chose to implement it on your own free will, and you were content with it. I?ll have no problem with that, as long as you are happy with it and you don?t shove a gun down my brother?s or my friends? throat threatening them to grow a beard or else!
My objection to Leyna's post is the double-standards she's displaying. You can't complain about the patronising rhetoric of pro-hijab literature if at the same time you patronise them by calling them brainwashed.
More or less like that. Some traditionalists may call non-hijabis are sexual, lust-inducing lowly creatures, while some of us may refer the hijabis as submissive, brainwashed, uncritically thinking group of people. Basically the same act, but different wording, based on different way of thinking.
So it is not a decision making process based on research, taking into proper account various interpretations and opinions and then arriving at your own. It is a process which is, from the beginning, limited and biased because it is based on the belief that you HAVE to follow scholars, and particular ones at that. It is a decision based on the belief that there is no such thing as free choice, that we are not allowed to reflect on the Qur'an and arrive at our own understanding, that obeying the scholars means to obey God. It is a decision making process that is based on not being allowed to analyze ALL points of view and ask critical questions. So how on earth can we call this free choice? There is brainwash involved and the Salafis, like any cult, are experts at brainwash techniques.
Not everyone has the luxury of being able to research. Not everyone has the means and resources to do so. Not everyone understands the history of hadith compilations to know its unreliability. Many countries only have one version of the Qur?an, and one interpretation. They are victims, and not the perpetrators. Besides, it is free-will, because they choose to implement one-sided view of Islam. They?re free to reject and not apply in their lives. If you have one food, and just one food, in front of you, and you decide to eat it without thinking there is another available food out there, that is free-will. You can decide not to eat it. Same case with the women. They have a choice of wearing the covering, and not wearing it. No one?s forcing them. They may be ridden by guilt for not covering, but they choose to do it. Same with us not wearing the headscarf. I choose not to wear a headscarf in day-to-day activity (in where I currently live), because I don?t want to give the impression that Islam mandates the headscarf for women. I know I?ll feel guilty by doing so. I?ll only wear it when circumstances ask me for it.
That's why I keep returning to the point that this is not simply about headscarf and choice ? what I am talking about is that the niqab is inextricably tied to the Salafi ideology, which is a dangerous, hateful, misogynist and fascist cult.
I can understand where you?re coming from, but it seems like you are patronising the women who chose to cover, rather than putting forward your views on the ideology behind the niqab. I may interpret your posts incorrectly though.
I used to know a friend who was a hijabi. And would waste no time in pointing out how great it is to be one and how it is one of the biggest things a woman can do to show her devotion to God, how anyone not being one was definitely on the wrong path and so on. If I was to respond to her honestly, a friend to a friend, woman to another woman, calling a spade a spade saying you know, you may have been told this from every angle since growing up so it may not be surprising that you've grown up believing this but I think you are evidently wrong because "insert quranic stance on hijab". Would this be mocking, patronising and hypocritical? Because I brought up what I think is a potential factor for her reasons for believing what she does?
No, that wouldn?t be mocking. In that scenario, you would prompt a friendly discussion (I assume you won?t use your savagingly sarcastic style) when your friend raised an argument. That is what needed to be done, inform the person ?of crime? face-to-face (or post-to-post, depending on the context). Open a discussion to understand a person and the reason why they think and behave the way they do, as well as make them understand you. Saves a lot of hard-feelings behind the screen, and help improve tolerance and unity.
If she responds "Nay, ye foul woman, I have read into this just recently and lo I have realised this is the way to go" and I respond alright, what persuaded you to realise? Would I be wrong/mocking/patronising/hypocritical to have brought up for discussion another potential factor that may have indoctrinated her into thinking a certain way? Because clearly, she isn't thinking critically?
Sure, as long as you bring the discussion to that person, and aim to understand how and why she thinks like that.
I think my initial and primary issue with Leyna?s post was the fact that she posted an article and a poem, and suggested that one article was amusing (because the author experienced such a flowery sensation when wearing the hijab) and inserted emoticons that have mocking tone to it. There was no discussion there, as far as I am concerned. I feel iffy when people project their own experience and make judgment on others based on their own experience (which in a way, is biased).
Anyway, I apologised if I grasped Leyna?s initial posts unfairly.
Isn't everyone brainwashed, more or less? I don't know about you, but I constantly delete old programming, and free myself from false ideas and beliefs. I think the search for truth will last our whole life. And brainwashing isn't limited to just religion. People can be brainwashed when it comes to politics, psychology, sociology, medicine, science, technology, statistics, economy and lots of other topics. Truth be told.
Agreed.
If you wore a beard because you were told that God requires it of you, then yes. You were brainwashed. I'm sorry if that offends you, or if it's patronizing, or if you find it insulting. None of those visceral reactions changes the reality that you were, at least with regard to that issue, brainwashed. And again, no 'objective' assertion (whatever that means). Just a judgment based on ample amounts of experience and evidence. It's possible you were born and one day somehow magically came to this conclusion completely on your own. I'll take my chances and assume you are part of the 99.999999% who believed it required because someone (either directly or indirectly) told you it was.
Suppose I am a woman living in a developing country. I have no access to internet, nor any resources that can show me various methodologies in examining religion. I only hear of one version of Islam (Sunnism). I want to be closer to God. I go to a mosque, with a burning passion to be the best muslim I can ever be. I have never worn the headscarf before, but whatever. I come to a mosque, and the sheikh tells me a good muslim woman has to cover up. I say, um really? The sheikh says, yes it?s what God mandates, it?s in the Qur?an. Then I take the Qur?an home, and indulge myself in it. Hey, there are verses that say women have to wear the veil and cover my beauty! Then I see the verse about a man asking a woman from behind a screen, and I read interpretation that suggests wearing the niqab. To me personally, it MAKES SENSE! Okay, I have decided from now one that I cover myself, and I feel peaceful by doing so.
Would you say I am brainwashed? Would you say that I commit a crime for not thoroughly researching when I have no means to do it in the first place? Or when I do not have a shred of knowledge on the Arabic language or methodology on understanding the Qur?an, and when the only resources available to me lead me to practice what I practice? Would you say I commit a crime for practicing what I accept to be the truth, and I feel peaceful for it?
You may think it is far-fetched. However, it is unfortunate that such scenario is prevalent in many societies. At least where I come from anyway.
I do have issue with people trying to brainwash others (meaning making others think and behave in a certain way to accomplish their desires), don?t get me wrong. But people who are brainwashed, are mere victims of their circumstances and environment.
We cannot be completely rid of brainwashing. At best, we can hope to minimize its effects, counter it with tools like critical thinking and distribution of data that more accurately fit the facts. We can, like Leyna did, point it out where we find it, in an attempt to root it out. If a few people, gasp, feel offended or patronized along the way, then so be it. It's the world we live in.
That?s cool, I can see her earlier articles discuss some key aspects of why women believe covering their bodies, and how growing-fear is one of them. I don?t find any problem with discussing such a thing, and I completely welcome open and critical discussions. But making light of others? personal experiences (which hold a great significance to them) that are different from ours, I don?t agree. It serves no real purpose, but to have a go at these people (who happen to be the victims of brainwashing/misinformation etc).
Anyone could be brainwashed/indoctrinated, in fact most of us are. That is why it is so important to call it if you think so, bring it up and out in the open so that we all can all apply critical thinking, take in new information, be better, more informed and reasonable human beings in a best case scenario. Exactly why the so called negative is such a learning experience is (if we aren't broken down in tears by it) Someone calls you something you perceive as horrible and you are jerked into asking why, how and maybe even wtf but that usually comes later when you've decided the dude is an idiot. Some things are relatively easier to reason and many many more things get harder with time and information.
Yes, bring it out in the open! To the affected person, and advise that they apply critical thinking. Narrating one?s experience and calling it amusing in front of audience who is most likely to have the same belief as you do anyway, is not productive. Most of us already know we don?t taste the lollypop and fairyfloss sweetness when wearing the headscarf, so what is in the store for pasting it here, and posting remarks that appear to be mocking? It may have more impact if the authors were informed of our views (if we really think that what they are doing is dangerous and harmless), but most of us don?t want to get into that anyway.
Okay, my fingers are getting tired now @.@. I should stop.
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This wasn't just the brainwashing comment, she also mockingly posted a poem by a hijabi wrapped in emoticons. The tone and intent was clear. I don't like hypocrisy.
Just because someone puts emotions into something, it means we are not allowed to mock or criticize it?
There are many poems like this around. Their sole purpose is to make the authors feel better and morally superior. The gist is always the same I'm a poor, discriminated Muslim woman living among unbelievers who don't understand me and look at me with suspicion. They are all too stupid to understand what the veil means to me, but at the end of the day I am the morally superior one, if only they knew.
So according to you, the women who write those poems have the right to express their emotions, but I don't? Sorry, but I disagree.
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To A Non-Muslim Woman
When you look at me
All that you can see
is the scarf that covers my hair
My words you can't hear
because you're too full of fear,
mouth gaping, all you do is stareYou think it's not my choice
in your own "liberation" rejoice.
You think I'm uneducated,
trapped, oppressed and subjugated,
You're so thankful that you're free.But non-Muslim woman you've got it wrong
You're the weak and I'm the strong.
For I've rejected the trap of man.
Fancy clothes - low neck, short skirt
those are devices for pain and hurt.
I'm not falling for that little plan.I'm a person with ideas and thought.
I'm not for sale, I can't be bought.
I'm me - not a fancy toy,
I won't decorate anyone's arm,
nor be promoted for my charm.
There is more to be than playing coy.Living life as a balancing game - mother,
daughter, wife, nurse, cleaner, cook, lover
and still bring home a wage.
Who thought up this modern "freedom"?
Where man can love'em and man can leave'em.
This is not free, but life in a cage.
Always jumping to a male agenda
competing on his terms.
No job share, no creche facilities,
no feeding and nappy changing amenities
No time off for menstrual pain,
"hormones" they laugh "what a shame"
No equal pay equal skill
your job they can always fill.
No promotion unless you're sterilised.
No promotion unless you're sexually terrorised.
And this is liberation?Non-Muslim woman you can have your life.
Mine - it has less strife.
I cover and I get respected,
surely that's to be expected,
for I won't demean the feminine,
I won't live to male criterion,
I dance to my own tune
and I hope you see this very soon.
For your own sake - wake up and use your sight.
Are you so sure that you are right?From a Muslim Woman
http//www.jannah.org/articles/poems.html#5
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Peace Leyna
That was a beautiful poem - even dough I don't agree with everything she says.
Thanks for sharing.
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Peace BornAgain
Great post. It was objective, tolerant and rational.
I agree with what you said in your post.
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Peace Everyone
I never call individuals brain washed. I consider that a personal attack. Instead of calling people brainwashed we should educate them. We should tell them the truth. Let me illustrate why we shouldn't call indviduals brainwashed. If a person falls on the ground and get wounded you shouldn't tell them you are clumsy. Because that won't help them at all. It would only make things worse. You should instead offer the person your hand, help lift them up. And give that person a bandaid.
Conclusion
Educate those who are wearing hijab. Educate them in a peaceful way. Show them the best arguments against hijab. Use the Quran and use history to back up your arguments. Don't critisize them. Just educate them.
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Just because someone puts emotions into something, it means we are not allowed to mock or criticize it?
There are many poems like this around. Their sole purpose is to make the authors feel better and morally superior. The gist is always the same I'm a poor, discriminated Muslim woman living among unbelievers who don't understand me and look at me with suspicion. They are all too stupid to understand what the veil means to me, but at the end of the day I am the morally superior one, if only they knew.
)
So according to you, the women who write those poems have the right to express their emotions, but I don't? Sorry, but I disagree.In discussions like these, many times nuances/facets/aspects get overlooked or ignored. It causes a slippery descent into repetition and overall harping on about stuff sticking to preferred grounds. Just a regular day on the forum I guess.
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That was a beautiful poem - even dough I don't agree with everything she says.
I wonder if you would find a poem written in the same style from the other perspective beautiful as well.
POEM FOR A MUSLIM WOMAN
When you look at me,
and my clothes you so despise,
i know that you are jealous
i can see it in your eyes.
i wonder if your smiling as i pass you in the street,
its hard to know thanks to that shroud you wear from head to feet.i'd ask you if it was your choice
to dress the way you do,
or if you felt oppressed at all
i really wish i knew
religions not my strong point, too much freedom when at school,
and i dont want to offend you, or make myself look like a fool.Muslim women you should be strong,
tell your husband he is wrong.
reject that trap he has you in,
and show the world your gorgeous skin.
no more by that device be beat
uncomfortable in summer heat.im my own person, cant be bought,
but you can right? or so i thought,
with dowries and fancy things
and all that marriage usually brings,
to muslim women lacking charm
cant decorate a white mans arm.i juggle on a daily basis
many jobs while your in stasis
your husband pays his monthly fee
to work out at the gym with me
a fun and pretty, slim instructor,
i know you wonder "has he fucked her"?
knowing full well hes bound to roam
as you cook and clean all day at home.
a full time job, no cash reward,
or stimulation.... arnt you bored?
no time off for good behaviour,
no chance of eventual saviour,
i want to help you, really honey
perhaps if you could earn some money,
escape your terrorised damnation
and seize at last your liberation.oh muslim woman, change your life,
you could be more than just a wife.
stand up like me and be respected,
your master will not feel rejected,
your job at home's easily filled
by someone equally weak willed.
so wake up, de-vail, see the light,
for YOU are wrong and I am right.http//www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=001168#000000
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the eastern parts of the world sees women as sex objects to be covered from head to toe. the western parts of the world sees women as sex objects to be uncovered head to toe.
islam taught me not to see myself as a sex object but as a woman to walk and talk with self-respect, dignity and honor.
Oh so right justamuslim.... I like the way you describe this here !!! I think indeed all has to do with modesty, the intention by witch you chose to wear something also... is it to catch mens eyes, is it to make other women jalous on your beauty?... No, that is not modest. So indeed use your common sence and wear those cloths that let you walk and talk with sefl-respect, dignity and honor.
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With all due respect Leyna, just because you perceive others to be mocking you, it does not mean you should return the mocking. Mocking/criticising back without constructive input is useless, and I can say it serves nothing but to make you feel better about yourself. An eye for an eye does not mean a mocking for a mocking.
Mocking does not equate constructive criticism. If you think something needs to be done to their "brainwashed mind", then do something about it to change it in the best possible manner. What you do is posting poems that you think are "stupid", and seem like you ask for a stamp of approval here. Will imprivement be done by such action?
As David has said, when you think something is wrong, fix it. Don't complain your way away 'cause nothing is going to happen.
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I think this thread has gone a bit off track. Now it seems to have become a moral judgement fair, many making assumptions which better lead to be able to give more moral high handed advice or whatever.
I, for one, said some persons are brainwashed, I stand by it. I have been brainwashed, we all have been brainwashed. ?What is there so horrible and offensive about it and why take it as an accusation and not a dignose, which if we dare to voice, it is because we know it too well? We women know, what it is to be brainwashed into impossible things. May be not impossible for everybody, but impossible for oneself, and that is plenty. Even if there is just only one person, just one person, who is going through something as we have been going through, it is legitmate that we do and say whatever we can to give whatever opening honest debate can give to that person, or that number of persons.
Also, I think we may all be guilty of pointing fingers, but please, ill will is not necessarily the reason why one may do or write things that may sound unpleasant.
I do not agree with abosolutely everything Leyna may be saying, but I think she is quite honest and not ill willed when she has put here, and which I may not like, but I do see the reason why she put them, and I think that reason and the purpose is quite valid. ?Why not ask her to explain further and instead pound on her?
I do think there is a lot of salve on certain assumptions, and may be they should be demystified. Like for instance, what are all those pages coming again and again about women's clothing and MODESTY. What, is modesty made just for women? Is it imposible to imagine that women may get sick of it? Why? Do we need millions of reminders everyday that modesty FOR US WOMEN is the foremost and foreALL of existence, but that men can just forget. Well, if you like, but then that logically should not be in a Qur'anist or Qur'anic forum.
As far as I can judge, the Qur'an in fact pounds more on modesty on the part of men than of women if there is any difference at all.
Please give women a little vacation and speak about intellectual endeavours or even, I am goingo to be good, even cooking, but for God's sake, give us a little vacation on modesty. We might end hating it jut because of the brainwashing connotations.
Salaam all and do not get bloody. Let us pray instead for our brothers and sister in Egypt and they the brothers get freedom finally and the sisters a bit more of modesty, it is never too much for a woman. O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0
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Peace everyoneCan you precise whitch nuances, facets, aspects get overlooked or ignored? this could be intructive if you mention some of them?...
a) Calling someone brainwashed is pointless. Reasonable points are raised in regards to it not being pointless. Following discussion overlooks and repeats.
Please read the thread for more on this.
b) Calling someone brainwashed is patronising/mocking/ridiculing/criticising/wrong. Reasonable points are raised in regards to it not being so. Following discussion overlooks and repeats.
Additionally, this serves as a green light as huruf said, to a moral judgement fair. Everyone is delighted to take the perceived moral high ground and go tsk tsking and handing pithy "Etiquette 101 as I know it" statements around. This serves to distract from the issues that need to be discussed. Many times in an argument someone says something like "you're a hypocrite" and the other party asks for a time out and sits around bemoaning the word used with blinders to everything else that came before or after. Waste of time, get on with it!
c) It's not anyone's fault. Whether people are voluntary victims or not is irrelevant to the harm caused. Following discussion overlooks and repeats.
Harm is caused either way and by bringing it out into the open irrespective of whether we hunt down the authors of such poetic travesties and say it to them or to others...we are calling it out for general benefit.
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peace peops
As per Wakas' suggestion I tried to work through that ayah...and as you'll see I've done quite a poor job of it, the result of which is me being possibly more confused ... Instead of answers I found questions Sorry guys.
2431 is the main ayah in relation to women?s dress in the Quranand it states Tell the acknowledging women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts, and that they should not show off their attraction except what is apparent, and let them cast their clothes over their cleavage. ?. Let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their attraction. Repent to God, all of you acknowledgers, so that you may succeed.
Lower the gaze
Does it explain this further in Quran anywhere? I take it to mean lower the gaze when you see things which could lead you to have improper thoughts etc. But I am not sure where I got that idea from. It would be pretty impractical to keep your gaze lowered all the time.Cast their clothes over their cleavage
This is the only time it says something specific about clothing/covering. Maybe that is significant. But I?ve also read that it was specific because women (some women?) of that time went uncovered.Guard their private parts
How do we know this was necessarily referring to clothing or physical covering? What if it refers to refraining from elicit activities? Don't get me wrong though - I have no desire for us to start going out w/out pants on &Not show off their attraction except what is apparent
I don?t understand how anyone knows what ??attraction?? refers to here. Do Arabic speakers know that it refers to a physical aspect ? does it translate like that? It certainly doesn?t go on to specify the particular parts. Or could it mean to not accentuate the attractive parts of yourself as in ??showing off???
Maybe it was known at that time and simply carried through the centuries ? for example there are certain parts of the body which are covered by most societies ? then again, not all. There are societies where it?s quite socially acceptable to go bare breasted something which many of us (even non-Muslims) would consider a given for covering by women.
Perhaps it really is left up to us to decide but even that raises issues for me because every person has their own unique array of things that they find attractive about others. As with many things its subjective, very personal, so to try and judge what others will be attracted to and then hide that would be a difficult guessing game.Common sense tells me that the way through is to measure by looking at the modesty levels of the society that you live in and to be generally modest in dress and actions which means each person making that ultimate call....and perhaps it?s not meant to be agonized over. shrug Which in turn reminds me of what Wakas said before about ??being sure??. lol Sometimes I wonder if I can ever really be sure about many things at all -yet I desire it.
Not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their attraction
If I can just say regarding this last part that I can remember seeing and hearing a number of times that this referred to ankle jewelery which made a jingling sound. But surely women would have also worn bangles and other jewelery then ? it makes it seem implausible to me. It seems sensible that it refers to the way a person walks/moves which can be attention grabbing but once again it doesn?t give much information.So all in all I am more confused brickwall However on the plus side I am very pleased to have become more aware of the following ayat (in particular the last one - I never noticed it before)
726 O Children of Adam, We have sent down for you garments to cover your bodies, as well as ornaments; and the garment of awareness is the best. That is from God's signs, perhaps they will remember.
I find it interesting that it mentions ??ornaments?? ? referring to jewelery? If so, don?t some hadith forbid jewelery? I certainly was told by some people not to wear it?.and not to breathe.3352 No women are lawful to you beyond this, nor that you change them for other wives, even though you may be attracted by their beauty, except those to whom you are committed by oaths. God is watchful over all things.
No blame being put on women here (phew ). Very simple ? they are not lawful even if YOU are attracted.744 Your garments purify.
Clothing is important. ;DPerhaps this will take some time for me to resolve. May God guide me. Ameen
In case people don't know, I do wear hijab still. In fact I only really leave my face, hands and feet uncovered. Though I have started to lighten up in my own way (as I mentioned in my post) and I am really not doing it for religious reasons now, rather for other reasons. It's just not something I feel comfortable stopping at this very moment. I guess that sorting out what I think is really required of women in terms of how they dress is an essential base for any decision I make regarding how to change the way I present to the world.
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Born Again
As David has said, when you think something is wrong, fix it. Don't complain your way away 'cause nothing is going to happen.
Nice!
Can anyone explain what brain washing is?
In Quran there are many repetitive Ayats about modesty; is Allah brain washing us? just an example
I just want to know what are the limits and where it starts from this Brain washing? -
Not show off their attraction except what is apparent
I don?t understand how anyone knows what ??attraction?? refers to here. Do Arabic speakers know that it refers to a physical aspect ? does it translate like that? It certainly doesn?t go on to specify the particular parts. Or could it mean to not accentuate the attractive parts of yourself as in ??showing off???
Maybe it was known at that time and simply carried through the centuries ? for example there are certain parts of the body which are covered by most societies ? then again, not all. There are societies where it?s quite socially acceptable to go bare breasted something which many of us (even non-Muslims) would consider a given for covering by women.
Perhaps it really is left up to us to decide but even that raises issues for me because every person has their own unique array of things that they find attractive about others. As with many things its subjective, very personal, so to try and judge what others will be attracted to and then hide that would be a difficult guessing game.Common sense tells me that the way through is to measure by looking at the modesty levels of the society that you live in and to be generally modest in dress and actions which means each person making that ultimate call....and perhaps it?s not meant to be agonized over. shrug Which in turn reminds me of what Wakas said before about ??being sure??. lol Sometimes I wonder if I can ever really be sure about many things at all -yet I desire it.
Not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their attraction
If I can just say regarding this last part that I can remember seeing and hearing a number of times that this referred to ankle jewelery which made a jingling sound. But surely women would have also worn bangles and other jewelery then ? it makes it seem implausible to me. It seems sensible that it refers to the way a person walks/moves which can be attention grabbing but once again it doesn?t give much information.I
For some reason these too passages have always meant boobs to me, and i've never considered otherwise for some reason. boobs seem to be the only female 'ornament' that becomes apparent when feet are stomped. If you don't believe, watch a woman jog...aaaaanyways, guarding your private parts has always seemed to mean to not allow your attractive bits been seen/touched/used by any except by those who are lawful. For example porn would -to me- mean that two things are occuring, 1 someone is likely not lowering their gaze, and 2 privates are not being guarded, as they're being shown off.
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I wonder if you would find a poem written in the same style from the other perspective beautiful as well.
Peace Leyna
That was a beautiful poem - even dough I don't agree with everything she says.
Thanks for sharing.
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Peace Leyna
The author of the first poem is right.
The author of the first poem is wrong.The author of the second poem is right.
The author of the second poem is wrong.Conclusion
Both are right and both are wrong.
Mission accomplished ;D
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Not show off their attraction except what is apparent
I don?t understand how anyone knows what ??attraction?? refers to here. Do Arabic speakers know that it refers to a physical aspect ? does it translate like that? It certainly doesn?t go on to specify the particular parts. Or could it mean to not accentuate the attractive parts of yourself as in ??showing off???
Maybe it was known at that time and simply carried through the centuries ? for example there are certain parts of the body which are covered by most societies ? then again, not all. There are societies where it?s quite socially acceptable to go bare breasted something which many of us (even non-Muslims) would consider a given for covering by women.
Perhaps it really is left up to us to decide but even that raises issues for me because every person has their own unique array of things that they find attractive about others. As with many things its subjective, very personal, so to try and judge what others will be attracted to and then hide that would be a difficult guessing game.The part that seems to have been translated as attraction, is zeena (z-y-n) which means
To adorn, deck. Adorn, grace, honor . Embellished, dressed, or trimmed it . Adorned , ornamented, decorated, decked, bedecked, garnished, embellished, beautified, or graced him/it. Of language it is said "It was embellished, dressed up, or trimmed". Of action it is said "It was embellished, dressed up"; i.e. commended to a person by another man. A grace, a beauty, a comely quality, a physical/intellectual adornment, an honour or a credit, and anything that is the pride or glory of a person or a thing. A thing that does not disgrace or render unseemly a wise man in any of his states or conditions, either in the present world or in that which is to come. It are of three kinds Mental Such as knowledge/science and good tenants. Bodily Strength, tallness of stature, beauty of aspect. Extrinsic Wealth, rank or station, dignity.
Again, I put forward that most of this aya deals with vanity and not with modesty. It calls not to show off. Again I point that this zeena are not to be shown not only to strange males but also not shown to strange women. So nothing to do with sexuality, unless we think that women are out to attract other women sexually. The fact is that it is rather that those who are out to something it may be to show off to other women and feel reinforced in their self-esteem and sense of self-worth.
I really think that common sense is the best tool to get the best of this aya. There isn't much point in looking at it for a topographic mapping of territory with inked borders. It is the same as the 24.30, but with the part about showing off added. Many times women depend on their physic appearance to gain any ascendancy, therefore they rely a lot on it and put a lot of effort and stock on it, and society even pushes this to extremes and even makes it a condition for feminity. But what did the Qur'an come to teach us? What are we being taught? We continue to want to extract recipes or minute instructions for anything and everything and not teachings or principles. Why do we fear to take responsibility so much? Of course I don't suppose that rana or anybody doesn't want to take responsibility, but there seems to be fear in us of doing something wrong when obviously there is no reason for it. Rana, even if she discards the opinion of others, ulamas or lamas, without "u", no matter, is not going to run naked and wringling about and enticing the crowd no matter what anybody tells her about what 24.31 says. She really knows that the Qur'an does not say to do that kind of partying, and I do not think either that the Qur'an tells her or anybody to split hairs forever. So really why not just take it without further splitting of hairs and relax.
Relax, friends, relax. Be brainwashed but relaxed. We'll get there in sha' Allah.
Salaam
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Funny word Brainwashed.... So if I have a dirty mind do I need my Brain Washed?
Anyway... These exact arguments are how the hadith began in the beginning. What do they mean by ______________? Judaism has the same issues which resulted in the Talmud. I think it is a slippery slope into a new hadith if people constantly worry if they "are doing it right". If Allah wanted a specific dress he would have said so in specific terms in the Quran.
We should look at what the essence of the conversation in the Quran. Basically it boils down to modesty. I think that modesty is somewhat cultural and somewhat personal. The culture decides what is modest meaning that you aren't running around making yourself look like a sex object. It is also personal, even within a culture a person may not feel comfortable showing that much of themselves even if it is modest. I think the reason the Quran isn't specific is that Allah wants the Quran to be portable to different cultures, different people and different times.
On a personal note I have seen muslim women wearing hijab and the clothing they chose to wear made them look very sexy even though only their hands and face were showing. Is that modest?
Personally I think the Quran is not specific on many matters because being vague requires us to draw close to Allah. If everything were "set in stone" then we wouldn't have the need to seek Allah, we would just do what we are told. I view the vagueness as a positive as it encourages/requires me to be engaged in a conversation with Allah. And isn't that ultimately what Allah wants? For us to know him, love him and do what is right in the world.
Just my thoughts.
JewishDude
Salam, Shalom, Peace peace