Hijab: private, apparent & 7 conditions
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Peace Leyna
That was a beautiful poem - even dough I don't agree with everything she says.
Thanks for sharing.
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Peace BornAgain
Great post. It was objective, tolerant and rational.
I agree with what you said in your post.
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Peace Everyone
I never call individuals brain washed. I consider that a personal attack. Instead of calling people brainwashed we should educate them. We should tell them the truth. Let me illustrate why we shouldn't call indviduals brainwashed. If a person falls on the ground and get wounded you shouldn't tell them you are clumsy. Because that won't help them at all. It would only make things worse. You should instead offer the person your hand, help lift them up. And give that person a bandaid.
Conclusion
Educate those who are wearing hijab. Educate them in a peaceful way. Show them the best arguments against hijab. Use the Quran and use history to back up your arguments. Don't critisize them. Just educate them.
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Just because someone puts emotions into something, it means we are not allowed to mock or criticize it?
There are many poems like this around. Their sole purpose is to make the authors feel better and morally superior. The gist is always the same I'm a poor, discriminated Muslim woman living among unbelievers who don't understand me and look at me with suspicion. They are all too stupid to understand what the veil means to me, but at the end of the day I am the morally superior one, if only they knew.
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So according to you, the women who write those poems have the right to express their emotions, but I don't? Sorry, but I disagree.In discussions like these, many times nuances/facets/aspects get overlooked or ignored. It causes a slippery descent into repetition and overall harping on about stuff sticking to preferred grounds. Just a regular day on the forum I guess.
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That was a beautiful poem - even dough I don't agree with everything she says.
I wonder if you would find a poem written in the same style from the other perspective beautiful as well.
POEM FOR A MUSLIM WOMAN
When you look at me,
and my clothes you so despise,
i know that you are jealous
i can see it in your eyes.
i wonder if your smiling as i pass you in the street,
its hard to know thanks to that shroud you wear from head to feet.i'd ask you if it was your choice
to dress the way you do,
or if you felt oppressed at all
i really wish i knew
religions not my strong point, too much freedom when at school,
and i dont want to offend you, or make myself look like a fool.Muslim women you should be strong,
tell your husband he is wrong.
reject that trap he has you in,
and show the world your gorgeous skin.
no more by that device be beat
uncomfortable in summer heat.im my own person, cant be bought,
but you can right? or so i thought,
with dowries and fancy things
and all that marriage usually brings,
to muslim women lacking charm
cant decorate a white mans arm.i juggle on a daily basis
many jobs while your in stasis
your husband pays his monthly fee
to work out at the gym with me
a fun and pretty, slim instructor,
i know you wonder "has he fucked her"?
knowing full well hes bound to roam
as you cook and clean all day at home.
a full time job, no cash reward,
or stimulation.... arnt you bored?
no time off for good behaviour,
no chance of eventual saviour,
i want to help you, really honey
perhaps if you could earn some money,
escape your terrorised damnation
and seize at last your liberation.oh muslim woman, change your life,
you could be more than just a wife.
stand up like me and be respected,
your master will not feel rejected,
your job at home's easily filled
by someone equally weak willed.
so wake up, de-vail, see the light,
for YOU are wrong and I am right.http//www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=001168#000000
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the eastern parts of the world sees women as sex objects to be covered from head to toe. the western parts of the world sees women as sex objects to be uncovered head to toe.
islam taught me not to see myself as a sex object but as a woman to walk and talk with self-respect, dignity and honor.
Oh so right justamuslim.... I like the way you describe this here !!! I think indeed all has to do with modesty, the intention by witch you chose to wear something also... is it to catch mens eyes, is it to make other women jalous on your beauty?... No, that is not modest. So indeed use your common sence and wear those cloths that let you walk and talk with sefl-respect, dignity and honor.
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With all due respect Leyna, just because you perceive others to be mocking you, it does not mean you should return the mocking. Mocking/criticising back without constructive input is useless, and I can say it serves nothing but to make you feel better about yourself. An eye for an eye does not mean a mocking for a mocking.
Mocking does not equate constructive criticism. If you think something needs to be done to their "brainwashed mind", then do something about it to change it in the best possible manner. What you do is posting poems that you think are "stupid", and seem like you ask for a stamp of approval here. Will imprivement be done by such action?
As David has said, when you think something is wrong, fix it. Don't complain your way away 'cause nothing is going to happen.
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I think this thread has gone a bit off track. Now it seems to have become a moral judgement fair, many making assumptions which better lead to be able to give more moral high handed advice or whatever.
I, for one, said some persons are brainwashed, I stand by it. I have been brainwashed, we all have been brainwashed. ?What is there so horrible and offensive about it and why take it as an accusation and not a dignose, which if we dare to voice, it is because we know it too well? We women know, what it is to be brainwashed into impossible things. May be not impossible for everybody, but impossible for oneself, and that is plenty. Even if there is just only one person, just one person, who is going through something as we have been going through, it is legitmate that we do and say whatever we can to give whatever opening honest debate can give to that person, or that number of persons.
Also, I think we may all be guilty of pointing fingers, but please, ill will is not necessarily the reason why one may do or write things that may sound unpleasant.
I do not agree with abosolutely everything Leyna may be saying, but I think she is quite honest and not ill willed when she has put here, and which I may not like, but I do see the reason why she put them, and I think that reason and the purpose is quite valid. ?Why not ask her to explain further and instead pound on her?
I do think there is a lot of salve on certain assumptions, and may be they should be demystified. Like for instance, what are all those pages coming again and again about women's clothing and MODESTY. What, is modesty made just for women? Is it imposible to imagine that women may get sick of it? Why? Do we need millions of reminders everyday that modesty FOR US WOMEN is the foremost and foreALL of existence, but that men can just forget. Well, if you like, but then that logically should not be in a Qur'anist or Qur'anic forum.
As far as I can judge, the Qur'an in fact pounds more on modesty on the part of men than of women if there is any difference at all.
Please give women a little vacation and speak about intellectual endeavours or even, I am goingo to be good, even cooking, but for God's sake, give us a little vacation on modesty. We might end hating it jut because of the brainwashing connotations.
Salaam all and do not get bloody. Let us pray instead for our brothers and sister in Egypt and they the brothers get freedom finally and the sisters a bit more of modesty, it is never too much for a woman. O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0
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Peace everyoneCan you precise whitch nuances, facets, aspects get overlooked or ignored? this could be intructive if you mention some of them?...
a) Calling someone brainwashed is pointless. Reasonable points are raised in regards to it not being pointless. Following discussion overlooks and repeats.
Please read the thread for more on this.
b) Calling someone brainwashed is patronising/mocking/ridiculing/criticising/wrong. Reasonable points are raised in regards to it not being so. Following discussion overlooks and repeats.
Additionally, this serves as a green light as huruf said, to a moral judgement fair. Everyone is delighted to take the perceived moral high ground and go tsk tsking and handing pithy "Etiquette 101 as I know it" statements around. This serves to distract from the issues that need to be discussed. Many times in an argument someone says something like "you're a hypocrite" and the other party asks for a time out and sits around bemoaning the word used with blinders to everything else that came before or after. Waste of time, get on with it!
c) It's not anyone's fault. Whether people are voluntary victims or not is irrelevant to the harm caused. Following discussion overlooks and repeats.
Harm is caused either way and by bringing it out into the open irrespective of whether we hunt down the authors of such poetic travesties and say it to them or to others...we are calling it out for general benefit.
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peace peops
As per Wakas' suggestion I tried to work through that ayah...and as you'll see I've done quite a poor job of it, the result of which is me being possibly more confused ... Instead of answers I found questions Sorry guys.
2431 is the main ayah in relation to women?s dress in the Quranand it states Tell the acknowledging women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts, and that they should not show off their attraction except what is apparent, and let them cast their clothes over their cleavage. ?. Let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their attraction. Repent to God, all of you acknowledgers, so that you may succeed.
Lower the gaze
Does it explain this further in Quran anywhere? I take it to mean lower the gaze when you see things which could lead you to have improper thoughts etc. But I am not sure where I got that idea from. It would be pretty impractical to keep your gaze lowered all the time.Cast their clothes over their cleavage
This is the only time it says something specific about clothing/covering. Maybe that is significant. But I?ve also read that it was specific because women (some women?) of that time went uncovered.Guard their private parts
How do we know this was necessarily referring to clothing or physical covering? What if it refers to refraining from elicit activities? Don't get me wrong though - I have no desire for us to start going out w/out pants on &Not show off their attraction except what is apparent
I don?t understand how anyone knows what ??attraction?? refers to here. Do Arabic speakers know that it refers to a physical aspect ? does it translate like that? It certainly doesn?t go on to specify the particular parts. Or could it mean to not accentuate the attractive parts of yourself as in ??showing off???
Maybe it was known at that time and simply carried through the centuries ? for example there are certain parts of the body which are covered by most societies ? then again, not all. There are societies where it?s quite socially acceptable to go bare breasted something which many of us (even non-Muslims) would consider a given for covering by women.
Perhaps it really is left up to us to decide but even that raises issues for me because every person has their own unique array of things that they find attractive about others. As with many things its subjective, very personal, so to try and judge what others will be attracted to and then hide that would be a difficult guessing game.Common sense tells me that the way through is to measure by looking at the modesty levels of the society that you live in and to be generally modest in dress and actions which means each person making that ultimate call....and perhaps it?s not meant to be agonized over. shrug Which in turn reminds me of what Wakas said before about ??being sure??. lol Sometimes I wonder if I can ever really be sure about many things at all -yet I desire it.
Not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their attraction
If I can just say regarding this last part that I can remember seeing and hearing a number of times that this referred to ankle jewelery which made a jingling sound. But surely women would have also worn bangles and other jewelery then ? it makes it seem implausible to me. It seems sensible that it refers to the way a person walks/moves which can be attention grabbing but once again it doesn?t give much information.So all in all I am more confused brickwall However on the plus side I am very pleased to have become more aware of the following ayat (in particular the last one - I never noticed it before)
726 O Children of Adam, We have sent down for you garments to cover your bodies, as well as ornaments; and the garment of awareness is the best. That is from God's signs, perhaps they will remember.
I find it interesting that it mentions ??ornaments?? ? referring to jewelery? If so, don?t some hadith forbid jewelery? I certainly was told by some people not to wear it?.and not to breathe.3352 No women are lawful to you beyond this, nor that you change them for other wives, even though you may be attracted by their beauty, except those to whom you are committed by oaths. God is watchful over all things.
No blame being put on women here (phew ). Very simple ? they are not lawful even if YOU are attracted.744 Your garments purify.
Clothing is important. ;DPerhaps this will take some time for me to resolve. May God guide me. Ameen
In case people don't know, I do wear hijab still. In fact I only really leave my face, hands and feet uncovered. Though I have started to lighten up in my own way (as I mentioned in my post) and I am really not doing it for religious reasons now, rather for other reasons. It's just not something I feel comfortable stopping at this very moment. I guess that sorting out what I think is really required of women in terms of how they dress is an essential base for any decision I make regarding how to change the way I present to the world.
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Born Again
As David has said, when you think something is wrong, fix it. Don't complain your way away 'cause nothing is going to happen.
Nice!
Can anyone explain what brain washing is?
In Quran there are many repetitive Ayats about modesty; is Allah brain washing us? just an example
I just want to know what are the limits and where it starts from this Brain washing? -
Not show off their attraction except what is apparent
I don?t understand how anyone knows what ??attraction?? refers to here. Do Arabic speakers know that it refers to a physical aspect ? does it translate like that? It certainly doesn?t go on to specify the particular parts. Or could it mean to not accentuate the attractive parts of yourself as in ??showing off???
Maybe it was known at that time and simply carried through the centuries ? for example there are certain parts of the body which are covered by most societies ? then again, not all. There are societies where it?s quite socially acceptable to go bare breasted something which many of us (even non-Muslims) would consider a given for covering by women.
Perhaps it really is left up to us to decide but even that raises issues for me because every person has their own unique array of things that they find attractive about others. As with many things its subjective, very personal, so to try and judge what others will be attracted to and then hide that would be a difficult guessing game.Common sense tells me that the way through is to measure by looking at the modesty levels of the society that you live in and to be generally modest in dress and actions which means each person making that ultimate call....and perhaps it?s not meant to be agonized over. shrug Which in turn reminds me of what Wakas said before about ??being sure??. lol Sometimes I wonder if I can ever really be sure about many things at all -yet I desire it.
Not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their attraction
If I can just say regarding this last part that I can remember seeing and hearing a number of times that this referred to ankle jewelery which made a jingling sound. But surely women would have also worn bangles and other jewelery then ? it makes it seem implausible to me. It seems sensible that it refers to the way a person walks/moves which can be attention grabbing but once again it doesn?t give much information.I
For some reason these too passages have always meant boobs to me, and i've never considered otherwise for some reason. boobs seem to be the only female 'ornament' that becomes apparent when feet are stomped. If you don't believe, watch a woman jog...aaaaanyways, guarding your private parts has always seemed to mean to not allow your attractive bits been seen/touched/used by any except by those who are lawful. For example porn would -to me- mean that two things are occuring, 1 someone is likely not lowering their gaze, and 2 privates are not being guarded, as they're being shown off.
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I wonder if you would find a poem written in the same style from the other perspective beautiful as well.
Peace Leyna
That was a beautiful poem - even dough I don't agree with everything she says.
Thanks for sharing.
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Peace Leyna
The author of the first poem is right.
The author of the first poem is wrong.The author of the second poem is right.
The author of the second poem is wrong.Conclusion
Both are right and both are wrong.
Mission accomplished ;D
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Not show off their attraction except what is apparent
I don?t understand how anyone knows what ??attraction?? refers to here. Do Arabic speakers know that it refers to a physical aspect ? does it translate like that? It certainly doesn?t go on to specify the particular parts. Or could it mean to not accentuate the attractive parts of yourself as in ??showing off???
Maybe it was known at that time and simply carried through the centuries ? for example there are certain parts of the body which are covered by most societies ? then again, not all. There are societies where it?s quite socially acceptable to go bare breasted something which many of us (even non-Muslims) would consider a given for covering by women.
Perhaps it really is left up to us to decide but even that raises issues for me because every person has their own unique array of things that they find attractive about others. As with many things its subjective, very personal, so to try and judge what others will be attracted to and then hide that would be a difficult guessing game.The part that seems to have been translated as attraction, is zeena (z-y-n) which means
To adorn, deck. Adorn, grace, honor . Embellished, dressed, or trimmed it . Adorned , ornamented, decorated, decked, bedecked, garnished, embellished, beautified, or graced him/it. Of language it is said "It was embellished, dressed up, or trimmed". Of action it is said "It was embellished, dressed up"; i.e. commended to a person by another man. A grace, a beauty, a comely quality, a physical/intellectual adornment, an honour or a credit, and anything that is the pride or glory of a person or a thing. A thing that does not disgrace or render unseemly a wise man in any of his states or conditions, either in the present world or in that which is to come. It are of three kinds Mental Such as knowledge/science and good tenants. Bodily Strength, tallness of stature, beauty of aspect. Extrinsic Wealth, rank or station, dignity.
Again, I put forward that most of this aya deals with vanity and not with modesty. It calls not to show off. Again I point that this zeena are not to be shown not only to strange males but also not shown to strange women. So nothing to do with sexuality, unless we think that women are out to attract other women sexually. The fact is that it is rather that those who are out to something it may be to show off to other women and feel reinforced in their self-esteem and sense of self-worth.
I really think that common sense is the best tool to get the best of this aya. There isn't much point in looking at it for a topographic mapping of territory with inked borders. It is the same as the 24.30, but with the part about showing off added. Many times women depend on their physic appearance to gain any ascendancy, therefore they rely a lot on it and put a lot of effort and stock on it, and society even pushes this to extremes and even makes it a condition for feminity. But what did the Qur'an come to teach us? What are we being taught? We continue to want to extract recipes or minute instructions for anything and everything and not teachings or principles. Why do we fear to take responsibility so much? Of course I don't suppose that rana or anybody doesn't want to take responsibility, but there seems to be fear in us of doing something wrong when obviously there is no reason for it. Rana, even if she discards the opinion of others, ulamas or lamas, without "u", no matter, is not going to run naked and wringling about and enticing the crowd no matter what anybody tells her about what 24.31 says. She really knows that the Qur'an does not say to do that kind of partying, and I do not think either that the Qur'an tells her or anybody to split hairs forever. So really why not just take it without further splitting of hairs and relax.
Relax, friends, relax. Be brainwashed but relaxed. We'll get there in sha' Allah.
Salaam
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Funny word Brainwashed.... So if I have a dirty mind do I need my Brain Washed?
Anyway... These exact arguments are how the hadith began in the beginning. What do they mean by ______________? Judaism has the same issues which resulted in the Talmud. I think it is a slippery slope into a new hadith if people constantly worry if they "are doing it right". If Allah wanted a specific dress he would have said so in specific terms in the Quran.
We should look at what the essence of the conversation in the Quran. Basically it boils down to modesty. I think that modesty is somewhat cultural and somewhat personal. The culture decides what is modest meaning that you aren't running around making yourself look like a sex object. It is also personal, even within a culture a person may not feel comfortable showing that much of themselves even if it is modest. I think the reason the Quran isn't specific is that Allah wants the Quran to be portable to different cultures, different people and different times.
On a personal note I have seen muslim women wearing hijab and the clothing they chose to wear made them look very sexy even though only their hands and face were showing. Is that modest?
Personally I think the Quran is not specific on many matters because being vague requires us to draw close to Allah. If everything were "set in stone" then we wouldn't have the need to seek Allah, we would just do what we are told. I view the vagueness as a positive as it encourages/requires me to be engaged in a conversation with Allah. And isn't that ultimately what Allah wants? For us to know him, love him and do what is right in the world.
Just my thoughts.
JewishDude
Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Funny word Brainwashed.... So if I have a dirty mind do I need my Brain Washed?
Anyway... These exact arguments are how the hadith began in the beginning. What do they mean by ______________? Judaism has the same issues which resulted in the Talmud. I think it is a slippery slope into a new hadith if people constantly worry if they "are doing it right". If Allah wanted a specific dress he would have said so in specific terms in the Quran.
We should look at what the essence of the conversation in the Quran. Basically it boils down to modesty. I think that modesty is somewhat cultural and somewhat personal. The culture decides what is modest meaning that you aren't running around making yourself look like a sex object. It is also personal, even within a culture a person may not feel comfortable showing that much of themselves even if it is modest. I think the reason the Quran isn't specific is that Allah wants the Quran to be portable to different cultures, different people and different times.
On a personal note I have seen muslim women wearing hijab and the clothing they chose to wear made them look very sexy even though only their hands and face were showing. Is that modest?
Personally I think the Quran is not specific on many matters because being vague requires us to draw close to Allah. If everything were "set in stone" then we wouldn't have the need to seek Allah, we would just do what we are told. I view the vagueness as a positive as it encourages/requires me to be engaged in a conversation with Allah. And isn't that ultimately what Allah wants? For us to know him, love him and do what is right in the world.
Just my thoughts.
JewishDude
Salam, Shalom, Peace peacebravo
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Anyway... These exact arguments are how the hadith began in the beginning. What do they mean by ______________? Judaism has the same issues which resulted in the Talmud. I think it is a slippery slope into a new hadith if people constantly worry if they "are doing it right". If Allah wanted a specific dress he would have said so in specific terms in the Quran.
Salam, Shalom, Peace peace
peace JewishDude and nice to have your input again. I've bolded, above, what I feel is an excellent point )
It's interesting to know that you also have similar interpretation issues within Judaism. Would I be correct if I assumed there is not so much focus on what women wear?
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For some reason these too passages have always meant boobs to me, and i've never considered otherwise for some reason. boobs seem to be the only female 'ornament' that becomes apparent when feet are stomped. If you don't believe, watch a woman jog...aaaaanyways
laugh I think it depends on your build captainneckbeard. Hips and that general region might also be a good example depending upon that.