Funny description of us - the hadith rejectors! :)
-
Rana
Wow! Some one with certain Islamic beliefs that fits yours!What is that supposed to mean??? Please make a point.
The label given by Allah serves the purpose well!! and we need not any other label.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.128m.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.128n.gif
Our Sustain-er Lord! keep/declare us as two Muslims, for ever surrendering for You,and from our progeny a Muslim community, subservient for You;..........
Like I said - we are talking about descriptive labels. It's different. We are Muslims but I still see nothing wrong in being more descriptive when called for.
-
Peace Raaajah,
The label given by Allah serves the purpose well!! and we need not any other label.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.128m.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.128n.gif
Our Sustain-er Lord! keep/declare us as two Muslims, for ever surrendering for You,and from our progeny a Muslim community, subservient for You;..........It is highly doubtful that the god gives meaningless labels and we can empirically verify that meaningless labels are useless. There are many people who are labeled as Muslims by virtue of their birth certificate or their state-issued ID and yet I doubt that this is what the god meant by this passage. If those concepts are not meaningless but they have real meaning that the god conveyed to you then you should be translating them and not hide the meaning behind meaningless labels.
Peace,
Ayman
-
What is that supposed to mean??? Please make a point.
Like I said - we are talking about descriptive labels. It's different. We are Muslims but I still see nothing wrong in being more descriptive when called for.
Hmm. Let me rephrase - "I" was talking about descriptive labels
-
Peace Raaajah,
but before that, ponder on what Mazhar sahib has said..because Allah LOVES Muhammad Peace is upon him a lot and says in his book
You the Messenger, pronounce, "If you people love Allah, then consciously incline yourselves to follow me, in letter and spirit, without in between there being third party intervention, Allah will in response love/appreciate and acknowledge act of you people and for you He will overlook/forgive your wrong-doings"You, the Messenger pronounce, "If your fathers, and your sons, and your brothers, and your spouses and your clans;and the wealth that you have acquired, and the business you people fear recession in it and the residences you are delighted with are more attractive and dearer to you people than Allah and His Messenger and endeavoring/exerting utmost with wealth and bodily/physically for His cause/path then wait until such time Allah proclaims His decision/command.
It is certain that Mazhar sahib doesn't say Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam since he knows that it is a blasphemous statement according to his own translation of 3356
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/033.%20Al%20Ahzaab/033.%20D%20Al%20Ahzaab.htm
It is certain that Allah and His Angels send blessings upon the Distinctly Elevated and Chosen One
O you who declare to have accepted listen this imperative, you people incline upon him with love and praising praying Allah for sending blessings, and you people submit to him salutations showing obeisance in a humble and respectful manner.According to Mazhar sahib the word "salam" means "submit to him salutations showing obeisance in a humble and respectful manner" so you are essentially saying that the god submitted to him salutations showing obeisance in a humble and respectful manner, which is blasphemous and the god be exalted above this.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Rana,
Hmm. Let me rephrase - "I" was talking about descriptive labels )
There is no such thing in linguistics. Let's not create a new category of nouns to escape facing contradictions. What we have are proper nouns and common nouns. If something is a proper name then it is a meaningless label and this is why it is not translated since its meaning doesn't convey truth in the context. If something is descriptive, in other words it conveys truth about what it describes then it is a common noun and should be translated. So we can't have it both ways and create a new category called "descriptive labels" that describes truth and yet is not translated to keep the word Muslims untranslated. It is better to translate it even if we get the translation wrong.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Rana,
There is no such thing in linguistics. Let's not create a new category of nouns to escape facing contradictions. What we have are proper nouns and common nouns. If something is a proper name then it is a meaningless label and this is why it is not translated since its meaning doesn't convey truth in the context. If something is descriptive, in other words it conveys truth about what it describes then it is a common noun and should be translated. So we can't have it both ways and create a new category called "descriptive labels" that describes truth and yet is not translated to keep the word Muslims untranslated. It is better to translate it even if we get the translation wrong.
Peace,
Ayman
Great, first we had a statistician, now a linguist. Frankly I don't care. My basic point being, perhaps made badly (though you could 'try' to understand what I'm saying instead of jumping to correct me via your amazing linguistic knowledge) - that if I want to know a few basic things about someone then I am really glad for labels because they are helpful.
This is completely unrelated to long passages of text that include Arabic on this thread - cos I haven't read those, in case that makes a difference.
So to reiterate, following the same example I set before, if I decide to look for a husband I will definitely be glad for the label 'Quran-only' or 'Quranist' because that will help me avoid a marriage where I may end up completely covered and unable to use facebook, swim, talk to men or make decisions for myself. Yes, I'm generalising, but there is a truth in what I'm saying.
peace
-
Rana to Rajah
What is that supposed to mean??? Please make a point.
according to you; your husband should have certain Islamic beliefs that fits yours! that means you have decided that your Islamic beliefs are the ones which are the true one, this closes the door of thinking process.
I have seen lady on this board who when asked by me "what if Allah does not say the same thing, what you think he is saying?" the reply was "I will leave that God"! That was an extreme case but your thought is dangerous one too.They would need to speak English and they would need to have certain Islamic beliefs that I felt could fit with my own therefore I could use those labels to find a person who was suitable
-
Rana to Rajah
according to you; your husband should have certain Islamic beliefs that fits yours! that means you have decided that your Islamic beliefs are the ones which are the true one, this closes the door of thinking process.
I have seen lady on this board who when asked by me "what if Allah does not say the same thing, what you think he is saying?" the reply was "I will leave that God"! That was an extreme case but your thought is dangerous one too.They would need to speak English and they would need to have certain Islamic beliefs that I felt could fit with my own therefore I could use those labels to find a person who was suitable
Is it just me - am I not making sense?!!
-
It is highly doubtful that the god gives meaningless labels and we can empirically verify that meaningless labels are useless. There are many people who are labeled as Muslims by virtue of their birth certificate or their state-issued ID and yet I doubt that this is what the god meant by this passage. If those concepts are not meaningless but they have real meaning that the god conveyed to you then you should be translating them and not hide the meaning behind meaningless labels.
Peace
AymanAgree with the part in red; but Allah not only labels us but tells us who should be labeled as a Muslim
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/3.67p.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/3.67q.gifIebra'heim never had been in the community of Jews nor the Christians, but on the contrary he was perpetually in the state of a Muslim;and he was never ever amongst the idol-worshipers who assign after naming the sculpted idols as partner iela'aha with Allah.
So these are the ones for whom the label Muslim is for.
I see you often use the word God, which word of Quran have you translated as God, curious to know. Thanks and Salaam.
-
So to reiterate, following the same example I set before, if I decide to look for a husband I will definitely be glad for the label 'Quran-only' or 'Quranist' because that will help me avoid a marriage where I may end up completely covered and unable to use facebook, swim, talk to men or make decisions for myself. Yes, I'm generalising, but there is a truth in what I'm saying.
Dear Rana without being sentimental, please give it a second thought. Actually what I am trying to say is you have already decided what you want; that is fine you are free to decide, but to say that you need a husband that fits your Islamic thoughts is just closing the doors of further study, Quran may or may not allow swimming in a certain dress, what when you get married with the person who fits your thoughts may change his thoughts afterwards, that happens all the time.
-
Is it just me - am I not making sense?!!
You make perfect sense to me. I wouldn't want to marry someone that didn't at least view God in a similar way. I don't plan on opening up my mind by marrying someone with differing views just to be open minded.
-
You make perfect sense to me. I wouldn't want to marry someone that didn't at least view God in a similar way. I don't plan on opening up my mind by marrying someone with differing views just to be open minded.
I would like to say I agree! I can be open minded, non-judgmental, and treat friends/others kindly regardless of their social/cultural/religious backgrounds, but marrying someone is a completely different matter. I'd like to think that marriage enables the couple to lift and support each other spiritually. I don't think I will be able to go through that experience if my partner holds different beliefs regarding God/spirituality.
-
Peace Rana,
Great, first we had a statistician, now a linguist. Frankly I don't care. My basic point being, perhaps made badly (though you could 'try' to understand what I'm saying instead of jumping to correct me via your amazing linguistic knowledge) - that if I want to know a few basic things about someone then I am really glad for labels because they are helpful.
This is completely unrelated to long passages of text that include Arabic on this thread - cos I haven't read those, in case that makes a difference.
So to reiterate, following the same example I set before, if I decide to look for a husband I will definitely be glad for the label 'Quran-only' or 'Quranist' because that will help me avoid a marriage where I may end up completely covered and unable to use facebook, swim, talk to men or make decisions for myself. Yes, I'm generalising, but there is a truth in what I'm saying.OK, never mind, I didn't realize that your point was about superficial matchmaking and not about any deeper truths.
peace
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Raaajah,
Agree with the part in red; but Allah not only labels us but tells us who should be labeled as a Muslim
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/3.67p.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/3.67q.gif
Iebra'heim never had been in the community of Jews nor the Christians, but on the contrary he was perpetually in the state of a Muslim;and he was never ever amongst the idol-worshipers who assign after naming the sculpted idols as partner iela'aha with Allah.
So these are the ones for whom the label Muslim is for.You say you agree but you don't apply what you just agreed to. So if someone puts on his ID card the label "Muslim" does he or she fullfil the truth of 367? Only meaningless labels are left untranslated. If something has a meaning and the meaning conveys truth in the context then it should be translated.
I see you often use the word God, which word of Quran have you translated as God, curious to know. Thanks and Salaam.
It is not God. It is the (definite) god. The word "allah" is in fact an abbreviation of the word "al-ilah", which means "the god".
Peace,
Ayman
-
The word "allah" is in fact an abbreviation of the word "al-ilah", which means "the god".
Peace,
AymanWhat I understand from your above quote is you are saying that Muslims barrow the name of the chief deity of pre-islamic Makkah called al-ilah.
If this is it I strongly disagree. It does not mean "a god", but rather "the Only God", the Supreme Creator of the universe.
I quote the following
"Edward William Lane's Lexicon"
" {Alllah}, accord. to the most correct of the opinions respecting it, which are twenty in number, (K,) or more than thirty, (MF) is a proper name, (Msb,K,) applied to the Being who exists necessarily, by Himself, comprising all the attributes of perfection; (TA a proper name denoting the true god, comprising all the excellent divine names; a unity comprising all the essences of existing things; (Ibn-El-Arabee, TA the {AL} being inseparable from it; (Msb not derived....... {Image of complete entry http//img426.imageshack.us/img426/4340/ewlanelexiconnn0.jpg Entry starts from right to left}
In Arabic there are many words that begin with ?al? such as ?alyasa? where ?al? is not a definite article. ?alyasa? is the arabicized form of the Hebrew name ?Elisha?
Laa ilaaha illaa alllah ?There is no God except Alllah?
Maa min ilaahin illaa alllah ?there is not a single deity(or other God) except Alllah?
If the name meant ?the god? it would not have been used in such a statement, because ?laa ilaaha illaa al ilaah ~ there is no God except the god?, and ? maa min ilahin illaa al ilaah ~ there is not a single deity(or God) except the god? is improper Arabic, absurd, and a contradiction to it self, whereas the name Alllaah would not have been possible to be used in such a statement in the Arabic language. -
If something is a proper name then it is a meaningless label and this is why it is not translated since its meaning doesn't convey truth in the context. Aymen
A great linguistic in the making!!!! Mazhar
You mean linguist. MesMorial
Dear I delayed the response. I do make spelling mistakes, but here, No, I wrote what I wrote, somehow matching the quote. And see here another pearl of a great "linguistic" in the making.
It is not God. It is the (definite) god. The word "allah" is in fact an abbreviation of the word "al-ilah", which means "the god". Aymen
-
Peace Raaajah,
What I understand from your above quote is you are saying that Muslims barrow the name of the chief deity of pre-islamic Makkah called al-ilah.
I don't see how you could have reached this conclusion. I didn't say anything about "Muslims", "chief diety" or "Makkah". There wasn't even a town called Makkah prior to the 8th century CE so there can be no such thing as "Pre-Islamic Makkah". Where are you getting this information from?
The fact is that "allah"/"al-ilah" means the god and it was used by everyone. You can see that Pre-Islamic Christians used "al-ilah" to mean "allah" as you can see in this inscription
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/zebed.html
If this is it I strongly disagree. It does not mean "a god", but rather "the Only God", the Supreme Creator of the universe.
Please quote where I said that "allah" means "a god". I clearly said that "allah" means "the god". By definition, the god is "the only god".
I quote the following
"Edward William Lane's Lexicon"
" {Alllah}, accord. to the most correct of the opinions respecting it, which are twenty in number, (K,) or more than thirty, (MF) is a proper name, (Msb,K,) applied to the Being who exists necessarily, by Himself, comprising all the attributes of perfection; (TA a proper name denoting the true god, comprising all the excellent divine names; a unity comprising all the essences of existing things; (Ibn-El-Arabee, TA the {AL} being inseparable from it; (Msb not derived....... {Image of complete entry http//img426.imageshack.us/img426/4340/ewlanelexiconnn0.jpg Entry starts from right to left}This is 100% false. The guy who wrote this clearly doesn't know about basic Arabic and common sense. The in the word "" is merely the definite article. Like all mundane definited article when attached to any Arabic word, the letter Alif is removed when you add "to"/"". So becomes with the addition of "to"/"". Compare this to proper names where the "Al" is an inseparable part of the name such as the country named "Albania" where you would say and not . This is all very basic and clear Arabic so the fact that "allah" is simply "al-ilah" is indisputable from a linguistic, epigraphic, and logical point of views.
In Arabic there are many words that begin with ?al? such as ?alyasa? where ?al? is not a definite article. ?alyasa? is the arabicized form of the Hebrew name ?Elisha?
In this case like Albania, you would say "li-Alyasa" and not "li-lyasa" since ?Al? is an inseparable part of the name and not a definite article. This is the opposite case with "allah" where we say "li-lah" and not "li-allah". So your example actually confirms what I am saying.
Laa ilaaha illaa alllah ?There is no God except Alllah?
Maa min ilaahin illaa alllah ?there is not a single deity(or other God) except Alllah?
If the name meant ?the god? it would not have been used in such a statement, because ?laa ilaaha illaa al ilaah ~ there is no God except the god?, and ? maa min ilahin illaa al ilaah ~ there is not a single deity(or God) except the god? is improper Arabic, absurd, and a contradiction to it self, whereas the name Alllaah would not have been possible to be used in such a statement in the Arabic language.Taking "allah" as a proper name is what reduces any statement to nonsense. Anyone can name anything any proper name. For example, anyone can name a stone idol "Allah" since a proper name is just a label. On the other hand, the one true god is not a label but is a universal concept describing truth, in other words a common noun.
In fact, "la illah illa allah"/"there is no god except the god" can only be meaningful if "allah"/"the god" is a common noun. It is true like saying "there is no truth except the truth". By definition "truth" cannot be half a truth nor have other "truths" contradicting it. The same applies for the concept of god. By definition, there can be no god that has other gods in competition/contradiction. So there can be no god except the definite god. I don't know if I communicated this clearly but I hope that you can see the amazing logic of this simple statement.
In fact in every occurrence of the word ?allah? in the great reading the common noun ?the god? fits perfectly. Take for example, 63 where "al-ilah" (the god) is clearly intended
- ...wa huwa allah fi al-samawati ...
- ...and he is the god in the heavens ...
Peace,
Ayman