Jesus, Virgin Births, Miracles, Symbolisms.
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Peace loxbox13, your post is all over the place and contradicting every other sentence; don't really know where begin and suggest bringing one concise thought at a time and throughly resolving instead of plastering verses. Example, you wrote "Rouh is the Quran. the commands in it" which is contradicting ...
16102 Say, "Has brought it down ru l-qudusi (masculine noun) from your Lord
Thus cannot be "it" or Qur'an has brought down Qur'an?
Another example... You wrote "Zakariah giving the news and presenting her her husband"
342 And when said the angels, "O Maryam!...
Was it the angels and ruh or Zakariah who gave the news?
1917 Then We sent to her ran then he assumed for her the likeness (of) a man well-proportioned.
Was it ruhana or as you claim Zakariah or as you claim Qur'an assumed the likeness of a man?
Salam brother
if you feel the quran isn't Rouh , than how do you explain this verse?And thus, We inspired to you a Rooh of Our command. You did not know what was the Book, nor what was faith. Yet, We made this a light to guide whoever We wish from among Our servants. Surely, you guide to a straight path. 4252
I didn't say the quran is THE rouh, but it is a Rooh , Actually it is not me who is saying it, it is verses 4252 and 1785 , and the other verses i posted under the Quran is rooh.
here is why the quran isn't The Rooh , but only a Rooh.
And they ask you concerning the Rooh. Say Rooh is from the command of my Lord; and the knowledge you were given was but very little. And if We wished, We would take away that which We have inspired to you. Then you would not find for yourself with it against Us a caretaker. 1785-86
The blue colered text, is the limits of the Quran, as a rooh, compared to the rooh
we have to study the word Rooh, there is nothing wrong with it, rooh is a word that is in the quran, and it is used everywhere, and even the quran is rooh , so to understand the birth of jesus, you have to realise that Rouh is the command , and it is not the rooh that looked like a man, the rooh is the command that was delievered by the messenger Zakariah.
the angels didn't speak to Miriam, if you read the verses of the angels giving news to miriam, it was when Zakariah was doing salat, re read again and you will realise that it was Zakariah who received this revelation , not Miriam, and Zakariah delivered the news to Miriam.
there is one more thing, the quran never said that jesus was born of a virgin , never, and never said he didn't have a father, it is only our interpretations, with influence of christians.through hadith
show me where god told us that miriam was virgin and never had sex marriage in the conception of jesus
it is contrary, in the arabic language, Ahsanat or Ahsana means marriage.( ( (
It was sent down with it the trusted Rooh. Upon your heart, so that you would be of the warners.. 26193-194
if you read this verse without anything in mind, any concept, you can see clearly that the quran is the trusted Rooh. that descended on the prophet's heart. if you can't see it, read it again. because you still thing that rouh is a spirit in the judeo-christian-hadiths concept.Possessor of the highest ranks, the One with the Throne. He sends the Rooh with His command upon whom He wills from His servants, that they may warn of the Day of Summoning.. 4015
As you see here, he's speaking about revelation to whom he choses as his messengers/prophets. in our case, God sent the quran to mohamed, because this Rouh they warn with it. and we know they warn with the book.
The angels and the Rooh come down in it with the permission of their Lord to carry out every command. 974
As you see this verse about the night of decree, we all know it tals about the quran, and rouh come down in the angels to the hearts of the messengers. many people here say how come Gabriel in the angels !!!! well, the quran comes down in the angels
The rouh Qudus , is the higest rank than the Quran, the Rooh Qudus is different,
for the roouh Qudus , make the believers steadfast, the rouh Qudus in the FIRM WORD OF ALLAH
Say The Rooh Qudus has brought it down from your Lord with the truth, so that God makes firm those who believe, and as a guidance and good news for those who have submitted 16102
compare with this verse
God makes firm those who believe with firm word in the worldly life, and in the Hereafter. And God misguides the wicked, and God does what He wishes. 1427
The quran is Rooh from Allah to guide us.
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And thus, We inspired to you a Rooh of Our command.
is the object of verb. Min does not connect with it. It connects with the elided adjective of the object. And elision is for reason of evident mention of it in the adjacent context.
And in the same manner We have communicated to you, the Messenger the Essence as verbal narration of Our Will/Decision/Command-the Book/Grand Qur'aan.
You were not in your past life in the habit of pursuing/wishing/inquisitive as to what is The Book and nor for acknowledging it.
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Say Rooh is from the command of my Lord
The above partial translation is some vague meanings of individual words and not of the Arabic sentence over it.
The first word is the subject and the later part is about the elided verb/predicate.
You, the Messenger pronounce, "The "Soul" is a blowing of the partial aspect/part from the Will of my Sustainer Lord".
"" -blowing, yields life.
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The above partial translation is some vague meanings of individual words and not of the Arabic sentence over it.
The first word is the subject and the later part is about the elided verb/predicate.
You, the Messenger pronounce, "The "Soul" is a blowing of the partial aspect/part from the Will of my Sustainer Lord".
"" -blowing, yields life.
But why do you translate Rouh to Soul ?
what about Nafs ? -
peace loxbox13,
It is a pity you spent time making the above post when it contains no credible points, nothing that I would call evidence and certainly not "clear" as you claimed.
Each to their own.
still working on it , but i prefer to post verses so i continu while people correct me, instead of finishing the whole thing and no one reads it
anyway, here is what I believe, so you know where i'm going with all this.
not only Isa wasn't born of a virgin, we even know his father's name, and his brother.Miriam was at Risk, stresed because she was bond to Nunhood, and the Rabbis took advantage from this invention in religion, so they did what they want with the girls in the synagogue, while Miriam mission was to abolish the celibacy rule invented by the rabbis for their Lust.that is why God gave her to Zakariah .
This is from the news of the unseen that We inspire to you. You were not with them when they drew straws as to which one of them will be charged with Mary; you were not with them when they disputed. 344
the proof that miriam didn't receive revelation, is that she received words of god and not Wahy, just like we receive the quran, but only mohamed received it as wahy , so miriam received the words of God and believed, through Zakariah.
And Mary, daughter of Imran, who locked her private part, so We blew into it from Our rooh, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Books; and she was of those who were dutiful. 6612 , 2191
So her Lord accepted her a good acceptance, and made her grow into a good growth, and charged Zachariah 369
The revelation Zakariah received , the announce of Yahya, and the announce that Miriam is gonna have Isa the massih and most of all Zakariah became a messenger of God
Zakariah received this verse first, as a messenger .
So the angels called to him while he was standing, making contact, in the temple enclosure God gives you glad tidings of John, authenticating the word from God, and a master, and steadfast, and a prophet from the upright 339
zakariah received this verse
And the angels said O Mary, God has selected you and cleansed you, and He has selected you over all the women of the worlds. O Mary, be dutiful to your Lord and prostrate and kneel with those who kneel. 342-43
zakariah received this verse
And the angels said O Mary, God gives you glad tidings of a word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary. Honorable in this world and in the Hereafter, and from among those who are made close 345
And relate in the Book, Mary, when she withdrew herself from her family to a place which was to the east. 1916
God sent his command (rooh) with Zakariah, and she was afraid of him, for Zakariah was dressed nice and looking good. and because she didn't know yet that he became a messenger of god,
So she took a barrier to separate her from them, so We sent Our command to her, and he appeard as man in all respect 1917
She was afraid, and she seeked refuge from ALRAHMAN , and didn't say Allah, for she was speaking with a man who know god.
She said I seek refuge with AlRahman from you if you are righteous 1918
He announced to her that he is a messenger from god, after getting the announce himself, The only messenger in that time was Zakariah
He said I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you the gift of a pure son. 1919
Amazed at this news of a baby, and she says that how come , she is not married nor she's unchaste .
She said How can I have a son when no human being has been with me, nor have I desired such? 1920
He told her about the revelation, of the Lord.and the whole process will be done.
He said It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. And We shall make him a sign for the people and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained. 1921
It looks that Isa was the son of Zakariah, and he was the brother of Yahya, that is why yahya and Isa had the same caracteristics. the marriage of Zakariah to Miriam, is a test for bani Israel Rabbis.
Zakariah was the leader, and prayed for someone to inherit him, and it was Isa who inherited the leadership.
it even look like yahya was a minister for Isa just like Haroun was for Moses. for he was a prophet and not a messenger.
God gives you glad tidings of Yahya, authenticating the word from God, and a master, and steadfast, and a prophet from the upright 339
To all those who get deep feeling and belief in virgin birth, the quran didn't say anything like that at all. didn't mention the word virgin , no did he say she conceived while she was virgin, to the contrary , after the messenger of god told her that he was gonna make a baby for her , and it is through marriage of course, that is why the quran say Ahsanat farajaha , meaning she locked her chastity , or protected herself through WedLock.
Zakariah assisted at Yahya birth, and propably didn't assist Isa birth, that is why he wasn't there to protect her from the rabbis when they disputed with Miriam about the baby. therefore Isa is a test and his mother, do u believe he was a regular normal man, or a fatherless man therefore avey hypothesis is possible. ( she abolished sisterhood, and Isa abolish all religions based on virgin birth , once you realise he wasn't born of a virgin )
( (
And Zachariah when he called out to his Lord My Lord, do not leave me without an heir, and You are the best inheritor.
2190 So We responded to him, and We granted him Yahya, and We cured his wife. They used to hasten to do good, and they would call to Us in joy and in fear. And of Us they were reverent. And the one who locked her chastity, so We blew into her from Our rooh, and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds. 2190-91 -
Now I'm not sure whether Mary was a virgin or not, but I sure am certain she had one massive WHOOPASS halo above her head
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Egypt.IsisHorus.01.png
these are whom the Quran was talking to, they caleed Isa ( isis ) the son of god
Jesus of nazareth isn't Isa, it's a myth created by paul, Isa is the nefu of Aaron. and lived way before jesus of nazareth, the story brought by paul to palestine was copied from the ancient Nasara. he just added the crucifiction doctrine of atonement of the romains.
Isa is propably Isis , and Uzair is prpaly Osiris
Allah knows best, because the history of Egypt was kidnapped by the archeologists pagans and it's emprisoned by the Elite that rule britain and US and the West.
by the way, the history of pharaons is a myth also, pharon is on single persone, and not a title, this is the best way they used to call all the prophets of Egypt Pharaons so no one will understand who were the prophets. and they sold us the image of prophets with beards in the middle of nowhere preaching , while the big statues in Egypt and the temple are Solomon's work and other prophets. -
Allah knows best, because the history of Egypt was kidnapped by the archeologists pagans and it's emprisoned by the Elite that rule britain and US and the West.
Peace Loxbox,
There were many archaelogogists spread over a large period of time from various backgrounds (such as Egyptian Zaki Hawass) all using scientific methods who have collected evidence from various sources - there has not been some conspiracy to try and hide the truth - the truth can be deduced from their collected works.
There's no evidence that Britain and the US have tried to put forward a pagan view on these matters - on the contrary they support a Christian Zionist view of all the facts - which nevertheless is closer to the Muslim view than any pagan one.
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Loxbox,
You are trying to narrate, in a scattered manner, what G.A. Pervez kept trying to prove, making a fool of himself at least in this case, in his book
I never read Ahmad parvez, , I didn't even know who he is unil now, I thaught he declared himself a messenger like khalifa type.
well, I am not trying to prouve, I just sent my opinions that sounds logic to me, in this forum so people can correct me or help me understand better , or cofirm in a better manner.
I went with one principle, a few verses in the quran, saying the way of allah will never change, and other saying all messengers ahd family, fathers etc... and I noticed that the quran doesn't mention virginity of Mary at all, and the quran doesn't say Jesus was created from a woman only, it's actually the contrary, the quran is saying Isa is Just like Adam , so from all these principle, and doing the best to take off the belief s of hadiths and christians and the story of jesus, I came up with this conclusion, it is a personel study , started from all what I lerned from forums, and in the quran.
It doesn't mean it is all true, because i am no scholar, but what I have in mind , I posted it, with hope of some people debate it, and prouve it right or wrong, but still, prouve it with kind of effort I did to search for verses , not with one line, getting a message of one word "Wrong"
anyway, I hope the truth will be known, and to me , Isa wasn't born of a virgin because god did't say it, it is only our assumption because of the influence of religions, and we lived with this idea since childhood, an idea under the pretext of "god can do anything".Peace
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well, I am not trying to prouve, I just sent my opinions that sounds logic to me, in this forum so people can correct me or help me understand better , or cofirm in a better manner.
I went with one principle, a few verses in the quran, saying the way of allah will never change, and other saying all messengers ahd family, fathers etc... and I noticed that the quran doesn't mention virginity of Mary at all, and the quran doesn't say Jesus was created from a woman only, it's actually the contrary, the quran is saying Isa is Just like Adam , so from all these principle, and doing the best to take off the belief s of hadiths and christians and the story of jesus, I came up with this conclusion, it is a personel study , started from all what I lerned from forums, and in the quran.Move step by step, if you wish to arrive at a conclusion, nearer to what the Qur'aan is telling.
Your first argument/assertion is that since "way of allah will never change and other saying all messengers ahd family, fathers". And thereat you conclude Qur'aan did not support "fatherless" birth of Easa alahissalam.
Now restrict yourself to first part to find what Qur'aan says what you call "the way of Allah will never change" and try to relate it with Sydena Maryam. Pl dont mix up other things with it.
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Come on
what do you mean come on !!! Where did the quran say Isa didn't have a father, and where in the quran , did it say Miriam was virgin when she conceived ? to the contrary, the messenger of Allah told her he was gonna make her a baby ( in the quran the rules to make a baby with a woman, you first have to marry her etc.. than sleep with her than she conceived the baby ) and in this case, it is a messenger ofgod who married her.
the alternat explanation, is the messenger o god is an angel, and in this case it doesn't make sense, angels don't conceive , and marriage is between man and woman , so this explanation es ruled out , the third explanation, is Rouh is the messenger of god, and this is ruled out , because Rouh is the command, brought by the messenger, according to logic of how thingd go in the quran, and the only messenger of that time, is Zakariah, this explanation, people don't like it, even though , it is the closest to logic and to what make sense,
Zakariah was a rabbi before he get the news and becoming a messenger of god, that is what explain , he appreard to her a man in respect, propably, he shaved that rabbi's beard and took out the garments rituels etc.. and became a good looking man, and himself becoming a messenger, and that explain also why Mary was surprised and get scared, for she didn't know he was elevated to the status of a messenger of god, and that is why he told he I AM A MESSENGER OF GOD , and she believed, that is why god say , SADAKAT KALIMAT RABIHA, she believed god's words etc...
there is these 3 possibilities
the one that makes sense to me is Zakariah is the father of Yahya and Isaif you see the caracter of Yahya, and Isa , are the same since childood, so even genetically, they're too close, both , allah said about them ' peace when they born, peace when they die and peace when they ressurect ) , and they were both with wisdom since childhood and they were both prophets
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Move step by step, if you wish to arrive at a conclusion, nearer to what the Qur'aan is telling.
Your first argument/assertion is that since "way of allah will never change and other saying all messengers ahd family, fathers". And thereat you conclude Qur'aan did not support "fatherless" birth of Easa alahissalam.
Now restrict yourself to first part to find what Qur'aan says what you call "the way of Allah will never change" and try to relate it with Sydena Maryam. Pl dont mix up other things with it.
I didn't start from that verse, " the way of allah never change " but I start from these, how can you explain thses verse ?
All Humans comes from male an femele ( including Isa)
O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes 4913
All messengers had wives and offspring, (including Isa )
And We have sent messengers before you and We have made for them mates and offspring 1338
All messengers had brothers, fathers and offspring ( including Isa in this verse)
( ( ( ( (
And such was Our argument that We gave Abraham over his people We raise the degree of whom We please. Your Lord is Wise, Knowledgeable.
And We granted him Isaac and Jacob, both of whom We guided and Noah We guided from before
and from his progeny is David, and Solomon, and Job, and Joseph, and Moses, and Aaron. It is such that We recompense the good doers.
And Zachariah and John, and Jesus, and Elias all were from the upright.
And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot; and each We have preferred over the worlds.
And from their fathers and their progeny and their brothers We have also chosen; and We guided them to a straight path.
684-87How can you explain these versesn specially 684-87 and 1338 ?
it is enaugh proof that Jesus had a father, and wife and offspring. unless they have another explanation. wahat do you think ? -
All Humans comes from male an femele ( including Isa)
O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes 4913
Brother I don't see any word Isa in Arabic line?
All messengers had wives and offspring, (including Isa )
And We have sent messengers before you and We have made for them mates and offspring 1338
Not in this one either?
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/6.085.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/6.086.gifhttp//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/6.087.gif
And guided Zakariyya, and Yahya and Easa and Ilyas; each and every one of them was amongst righteous/perfectionists.And Iesma'eile and Al-Yasa'a and Yunus and Lut . And We gave all of them over and above the entire humanity the uniqueness/sanctity/individuality/distinction.And some out of their forefathers and some from their posterity and some from their brothers were given uniqueness/individual distinction/guided. And We chose them and We guided them on the Straight Path.
Read 87 starting with
And from
wamin ........ and We chose them
wa-ij'tabaynhumSome of those or may be majority of those but not all, We all know the Grand father of Iesma'eile was not one of them neither son of Noah.
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All Humans comes from male an femele ( including Isa)
O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes 4913
This is address only to living people. It is not talking to dead people, since Qur'aan is only for the living. Easa alahissalam died much before the revelation of Qur'aan.
It does not say ALL.
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Miriam was at Risk, stresed because she was bond to Nunhood, and the Rabbis took advantage from this invention in religion, so they did what they want with the girls in the synagogue, while Miriam mission was to abolish the celibacy rule invented by the rabbis for their Lust.that is why God gave her to Zakariah .
Conjecture.
so miriam received the words of God and believed, through Zakariah.
Contradicts Qu'ran.
zakariah received this verse
And the angels said O Mary, God has selected you and cleansed you, and He has selected you over all the women of the worlds. O Mary, be dutiful to your Lord and prostrate and kneel with those who kneel. 342-43
zakariah received this verse
And the angels said O Mary, God gives you glad tidings of a word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary. Honorable in this world and in the Hereafter, and from among those who are made close 345
Clear contradiction -- "and the angels said O Mary!"
God sent his command (rooh) with Zakariah, and she was afraid of him, for Zakariah was dressed nice and looking good. and because she didn't know yet that he became a messenger of god,
Clear contradiction -- LISTEN carefully to the first part and perhaps you'll see your errors...
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5aIi3OqOJU
She said I seek refuge with AlRahman from you if you are righteous 1918
Afraid of whom -- her caretaker?
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Can someone prouve that Isa was born of a virgin ? is there a clear statement that she conceived while she was a virgin ?
For exemple, if the quran say Allah gave a son to David, his name is solomon, but the quran didn't say that David was married and Solomon was born out of the woumb, shall I understand that Solomon was born without a mother ? just because his mother wasn't mentioned ?
why all assume that Mary was a virgin when conceived ? the word virgin doesn't exist in the quran, virgin in arabic mean Bikr, tahn why god didn't use the word Bikr for Miriam ? -
Can someone prouve that Isa was born of a virgin ? is there a clear statement that she conceived while she was a virgin ?
What is not clear?
1919
He said, "Only I am a Messenger (from) your Lord, that I bestow on you a son pure."
She said, "How can be for me a son when not has touched me a man and not I am baghiyyan? -
What is not clear?
1919
He said, "Only I am a Messenger (from) your Lord, that I bestow on you a son pure."
She said, "How can be for me a son when not has touched me a man and not I am baghiyyan?and after that , what happened? did she conceive ? or god gave his command to the natirel process?
this messenger told her a revelation that is what alllah said, it is easy, and the matter is decreed.so , what you can understand here, what is the matter decreed ? the naturel process of conception, or just by magic a sperme will be growing in her to foem a foetus ?
see , this messenger is the key.another point
why allah said this verse ?
Such was Jesus, son of Mary, and this is the truth of the matter in which they doubt.1934what doubt if he was talking about virgin birth? they already belkieve in virgin birth, so the story has to be different for them to don't believe.