Jesus, Virgin Births, Miracles, Symbolisms.
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Loxbox,
You are trying to narrate, in a scattered manner, what G.A. Pervez kept trying to prove, making a fool of himself at least in this case, in his book
I never read Ahmad parvez, , I didn't even know who he is unil now, I thaught he declared himself a messenger like khalifa type.
well, I am not trying to prouve, I just sent my opinions that sounds logic to me, in this forum so people can correct me or help me understand better , or cofirm in a better manner.
I went with one principle, a few verses in the quran, saying the way of allah will never change, and other saying all messengers ahd family, fathers etc... and I noticed that the quran doesn't mention virginity of Mary at all, and the quran doesn't say Jesus was created from a woman only, it's actually the contrary, the quran is saying Isa is Just like Adam , so from all these principle, and doing the best to take off the belief s of hadiths and christians and the story of jesus, I came up with this conclusion, it is a personel study , started from all what I lerned from forums, and in the quran.
It doesn't mean it is all true, because i am no scholar, but what I have in mind , I posted it, with hope of some people debate it, and prouve it right or wrong, but still, prouve it with kind of effort I did to search for verses , not with one line, getting a message of one word "Wrong"
anyway, I hope the truth will be known, and to me , Isa wasn't born of a virgin because god did't say it, it is only our assumption because of the influence of religions, and we lived with this idea since childhood, an idea under the pretext of "god can do anything".Peace
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well, I am not trying to prouve, I just sent my opinions that sounds logic to me, in this forum so people can correct me or help me understand better , or cofirm in a better manner.
I went with one principle, a few verses in the quran, saying the way of allah will never change, and other saying all messengers ahd family, fathers etc... and I noticed that the quran doesn't mention virginity of Mary at all, and the quran doesn't say Jesus was created from a woman only, it's actually the contrary, the quran is saying Isa is Just like Adam , so from all these principle, and doing the best to take off the belief s of hadiths and christians and the story of jesus, I came up with this conclusion, it is a personel study , started from all what I lerned from forums, and in the quran.Move step by step, if you wish to arrive at a conclusion, nearer to what the Qur'aan is telling.
Your first argument/assertion is that since "way of allah will never change and other saying all messengers ahd family, fathers". And thereat you conclude Qur'aan did not support "fatherless" birth of Easa alahissalam.
Now restrict yourself to first part to find what Qur'aan says what you call "the way of Allah will never change" and try to relate it with Sydena Maryam. Pl dont mix up other things with it.
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Come on
what do you mean come on !!! Where did the quran say Isa didn't have a father, and where in the quran , did it say Miriam was virgin when she conceived ? to the contrary, the messenger of Allah told her he was gonna make her a baby ( in the quran the rules to make a baby with a woman, you first have to marry her etc.. than sleep with her than she conceived the baby ) and in this case, it is a messenger ofgod who married her.
the alternat explanation, is the messenger o god is an angel, and in this case it doesn't make sense, angels don't conceive , and marriage is between man and woman , so this explanation es ruled out , the third explanation, is Rouh is the messenger of god, and this is ruled out , because Rouh is the command, brought by the messenger, according to logic of how thingd go in the quran, and the only messenger of that time, is Zakariah, this explanation, people don't like it, even though , it is the closest to logic and to what make sense,
Zakariah was a rabbi before he get the news and becoming a messenger of god, that is what explain , he appreard to her a man in respect, propably, he shaved that rabbi's beard and took out the garments rituels etc.. and became a good looking man, and himself becoming a messenger, and that explain also why Mary was surprised and get scared, for she didn't know he was elevated to the status of a messenger of god, and that is why he told he I AM A MESSENGER OF GOD , and she believed, that is why god say , SADAKAT KALIMAT RABIHA, she believed god's words etc...
there is these 3 possibilities
the one that makes sense to me is Zakariah is the father of Yahya and Isaif you see the caracter of Yahya, and Isa , are the same since childood, so even genetically, they're too close, both , allah said about them ' peace when they born, peace when they die and peace when they ressurect ) , and they were both with wisdom since childhood and they were both prophets
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Move step by step, if you wish to arrive at a conclusion, nearer to what the Qur'aan is telling.
Your first argument/assertion is that since "way of allah will never change and other saying all messengers ahd family, fathers". And thereat you conclude Qur'aan did not support "fatherless" birth of Easa alahissalam.
Now restrict yourself to first part to find what Qur'aan says what you call "the way of Allah will never change" and try to relate it with Sydena Maryam. Pl dont mix up other things with it.
I didn't start from that verse, " the way of allah never change " but I start from these, how can you explain thses verse ?
All Humans comes from male an femele ( including Isa)
O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes 4913
All messengers had wives and offspring, (including Isa )
And We have sent messengers before you and We have made for them mates and offspring 1338
All messengers had brothers, fathers and offspring ( including Isa in this verse)
( ( ( ( (
And such was Our argument that We gave Abraham over his people We raise the degree of whom We please. Your Lord is Wise, Knowledgeable.
And We granted him Isaac and Jacob, both of whom We guided and Noah We guided from before
and from his progeny is David, and Solomon, and Job, and Joseph, and Moses, and Aaron. It is such that We recompense the good doers.
And Zachariah and John, and Jesus, and Elias all were from the upright.
And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot; and each We have preferred over the worlds.
And from their fathers and their progeny and their brothers We have also chosen; and We guided them to a straight path.
684-87How can you explain these versesn specially 684-87 and 1338 ?
it is enaugh proof that Jesus had a father, and wife and offspring. unless they have another explanation. wahat do you think ? -
All Humans comes from male an femele ( including Isa)
O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes 4913
Brother I don't see any word Isa in Arabic line?
All messengers had wives and offspring, (including Isa )
And We have sent messengers before you and We have made for them mates and offspring 1338
Not in this one either?
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/6.085.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/6.086.gifhttp//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/6.087.gif
And guided Zakariyya, and Yahya and Easa and Ilyas; each and every one of them was amongst righteous/perfectionists.And Iesma'eile and Al-Yasa'a and Yunus and Lut . And We gave all of them over and above the entire humanity the uniqueness/sanctity/individuality/distinction.And some out of their forefathers and some from their posterity and some from their brothers were given uniqueness/individual distinction/guided. And We chose them and We guided them on the Straight Path.
Read 87 starting with
And from
wamin ........ and We chose them
wa-ij'tabaynhumSome of those or may be majority of those but not all, We all know the Grand father of Iesma'eile was not one of them neither son of Noah.
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All Humans comes from male an femele ( including Isa)
O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes 4913
This is address only to living people. It is not talking to dead people, since Qur'aan is only for the living. Easa alahissalam died much before the revelation of Qur'aan.
It does not say ALL.
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Miriam was at Risk, stresed because she was bond to Nunhood, and the Rabbis took advantage from this invention in religion, so they did what they want with the girls in the synagogue, while Miriam mission was to abolish the celibacy rule invented by the rabbis for their Lust.that is why God gave her to Zakariah .
Conjecture.
so miriam received the words of God and believed, through Zakariah.
Contradicts Qu'ran.
zakariah received this verse
And the angels said O Mary, God has selected you and cleansed you, and He has selected you over all the women of the worlds. O Mary, be dutiful to your Lord and prostrate and kneel with those who kneel. 342-43
zakariah received this verse
And the angels said O Mary, God gives you glad tidings of a word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary. Honorable in this world and in the Hereafter, and from among those who are made close 345
Clear contradiction -- "and the angels said O Mary!"
God sent his command (rooh) with Zakariah, and she was afraid of him, for Zakariah was dressed nice and looking good. and because she didn't know yet that he became a messenger of god,
Clear contradiction -- LISTEN carefully to the first part and perhaps you'll see your errors...
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5aIi3OqOJU
She said I seek refuge with AlRahman from you if you are righteous 1918
Afraid of whom -- her caretaker?
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Can someone prouve that Isa was born of a virgin ? is there a clear statement that she conceived while she was a virgin ?
For exemple, if the quran say Allah gave a son to David, his name is solomon, but the quran didn't say that David was married and Solomon was born out of the woumb, shall I understand that Solomon was born without a mother ? just because his mother wasn't mentioned ?
why all assume that Mary was a virgin when conceived ? the word virgin doesn't exist in the quran, virgin in arabic mean Bikr, tahn why god didn't use the word Bikr for Miriam ? -
Can someone prouve that Isa was born of a virgin ? is there a clear statement that she conceived while she was a virgin ?
What is not clear?
1919
He said, "Only I am a Messenger (from) your Lord, that I bestow on you a son pure."
She said, "How can be for me a son when not has touched me a man and not I am baghiyyan? -
What is not clear?
1919
He said, "Only I am a Messenger (from) your Lord, that I bestow on you a son pure."
She said, "How can be for me a son when not has touched me a man and not I am baghiyyan?and after that , what happened? did she conceive ? or god gave his command to the natirel process?
this messenger told her a revelation that is what alllah said, it is easy, and the matter is decreed.so , what you can understand here, what is the matter decreed ? the naturel process of conception, or just by magic a sperme will be growing in her to foem a foetus ?
see , this messenger is the key.another point
why allah said this verse ?
Such was Jesus, son of Mary, and this is the truth of the matter in which they doubt.1934what doubt if he was talking about virgin birth? they already belkieve in virgin birth, so the story has to be different for them to don't believe.
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Salaaman bro,
what do you mean come on !!! Where did the quran say Isa didn't have a father, and where in the quran , did it say Miriam was virgin when she conceived ? to the contrary, the messenger of Allah told her he was gonna make her a baby ( in the quran the rules to make a baby with a woman, you first have to marry her etc.. than sleep with her than she conceived the baby ) and
in this case, it is a messenger ofgod who married her. Where did the quran say Isa didn't have a father
the alternat explanation, is the messenger o god is an angel, and in this case it doesn't make sense, angels don't conceive , and marriage is between man and woman , so this explanation es ruled out , the third explanation, is Rouh is the messenger of god, and this is ruled out , because Rouh is the command, Where did the quran say Isa didn't have a father
brought by the messenger, according to logic of how thingd go in the quran, and the only messenger of that time, is Zakariah, this explanation, people don't like it, even though , it is the closest to logic and to what make sense, ???
Zakariah was a rabbi Where did the quran say Isa didn't have a father
before he get the news and becoming a messenger of god, that is what explain , he appreard to her a man in respect, Where did the quran say Isa didn't have a father
propably, ???
he shaved that rabbi's beard Where did the quran say Isa didn't have a father
and took out the garments rituels etc.. o Where did the quran say Isa didn't have a father
and became a good looking man, Where did the quran say Isa didn't have a father
and himself becoming a messenger, and that explain also why Mary was surprised and get scared, for she didn't know he was elevated to the status of a messenger of god, and that is why he told he I AM A MESSENGER OF GOD , and she believed, that is why god say , SADAKAT KALIMAT RABIHA, she believed god's words etc... But "I am a messenger of Allah" is not the word of Rabbiha
there is these 3 possibilities
the one that makes sense to me is Zakariah is the father of Yahya and Isa oif you see the caracter of Yahya, and Isa , are the same since childood, Yahya also speaks in the cradle?
so even genetically, they're too close, both , allah said about them' peace when they born, peace when they die and peace when they ressurect ) , Is this means they are GENETICALLY same?
and they were both with wisdom since childhood and they were both prophets hmm
May Allah open our hearts to understand and accept the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
and after that , what happened? did she conceive ? or god gave his command to the natirel process?
Yes, read the next verses...
1921 He said, "Thus; said your Lord, 'It for Me easy, and so that We will make him a sign for the humankind and a mercy from Us.
1922 So she conceived...What we know about the natural process and physics involved; most see the human body, I see microscopic 4 bit chemical programs called life with precise instructions IF THEN ELSE logic, add water, grows and divides/copy command, repairs itself/error correcting code, etc...
why allah said this verse ?
Such was Jesus, son of Mary, and this is the truth of the matter in which they doubt.1934what doubt if he was talking about virgin birth? they already belkieve in virgin birth, so the story has to be different for them to don't believe.
No, they (her people followers of the book not Christians) and others doubted 1927-30 same as many doubt today.
Peace!
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Salaaman LB,
All Humans comes from male an femele ( including Isa)
O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes 4913
345
345 When the angels said O Marium, Allah gives you glad tidings of a word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Eisa, son of Marium. Honorable in this world and in the Hereafter, and from among those who are made close.
How about "Kalima", how they born?
All messengers had wives and offspring, (including Isa )
And We have sent messengers before you and We have made for them mates and offspring 1338
Remember "Rusulun" is Nakira, I am not sure whether Eisa (AS) is also Rasool or Rasool Allah or Al Rasool, if you know, please get be the aayat.
All messengers had brothers, fathers and offspring ( including Isa in this verse)
( ( ( ( (
And such was Our argument that We gave Abraham over his people We raise the degree of whom We please. Your Lord is Wise, Knowledgeable.
And We granted him Isaac and Jacob, both of whom We guided and Noah We guided from before
and from his progeny is David, and Solomon, and Job, and Joseph, and Moses, and Aaron. It is such that We recompense the good doers.
And Zachariah and John, and Jesus, and Elias all were from the upright.
And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot; and each We have preferred over the worlds.
And from their fathers and their progeny and their brothers We have also chosen; and We guided them to a straight path.
684-87"And from their fathers" does it include all mentioned above? If so, how about "And EACH we have preferred over the worlds" referring to in the previous aayat? And "And ALL were from the upright" is also referring to all the above in above that aayat?
May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaaman LB,
Can someone prouve that Isa was born of a virgin ? is there a clear statement that she conceived while she was a virgin ?
Can YOU prove that Eisa (AS) was NOT born of a virgin? Is there a CLEAR STATEMENT that she conceived while she was NOT a virgin?
May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaaman LB,
and after that , what happened? did she conceive ? or god gave his command to the natirel process?
this messenger told her a revelation that is what alllah said, it is easy, and the matter is decreed.so , what you can understand here, what is the matter decreed ? the naturel process of conception, or just by magic a sperme will be growing in her to foem a foetus ?
see , this messenger is the key.I understand it as follows
Yes she conceive but when Rooh was blown into her/him. I know, you must be thinking why I said her/him, let me explain you my understanding on the same.
Women has XX chromosomes
Men has XY chromosomesAnd X + X chromosomes makes a baby girl
And X + Y chromosomes makes a baby boyWhen Marium conceives without a touch of a men, she has to give birth to a baby girl because she has only X + X chromosomes. But that was not the case, she gave birth to a baby boy, how?
Allah said
2191
2191 And the one who protected her chastity, so We blew into her from Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.
"Feeha" means "Into HER"
6612
6612 And Mary, daughter of Imran, who maintained the chastity of her private part, so We blew into him/it from Our Spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Books; and she was of those who were dutiful.
"Feehi" means "Into HIM / IT"
From this I understand that Marium was having X + Y chromosomes, and she gave birth to a baby boy. In this way, there is nothing against 'Sunnat Allah'.
Furthermore, just to make her go through all this process, she was treated differently as follows
337
337 So her Lord accepted her a good acceptance, and made her grow into a good growth, and charged Zachariah with her. Every time Zachariah entered upon her in the temple enclosure, he found provisions with her. He said O Marium, from where did you get this? She said It is from Allah, for Allah provides for whom He wishes without reckoning.
1- Zachariah (AS) was given KAFAALAT of Marium. He takes care of her as his own child , how can he be a father of Eisa (AS)?
2- EVERY TIME Zachariah (AS) enter upon her, he found RIZQ with her.
3- Zachariah (AS) asked her where did you get this , he don't know? even though he was a care taker of her.
4- Marium said "It is from Allah", she didn't say, this is what we cook today, or this is what you brought for us, etc, etc..
This clearly means to me that Marium was treated specially. And also look at this point
4171
4171 O people of the Book, do not overstep in your system, nor say about Allah except the truth. Eisa, son of Mary, was no more than a messenger of Allah and His word cast it down to Mary and a Spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and do not say Trinity. Cease, for it is better for you. Allah is only One god, be He glorified that He should have a son! To Him is all that is in the heavens and the earth; and Allah is enough as a Caretaker.
Moderators please correct in Arabic Text "AlQaaha ila Marium" NOT "AlQayha" 4171
It is said " " What means "Alqaa" to you? Look at 2019
2019
2019 He said Cast it down O Moses.Why Alqaa?
Another point
5110
5110 Allah said O Eisa, son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother, that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and middle-age; and I taught you the Book and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Injeel; and you would create from clay the shape of a bird, then blow into it and it becomes a bird with My permission; and you would heal the blind and the leaper with My permission; and you would bring out the dead with My permission. And I have restrained the Children of Israel from you, that you came to them with proofs; but those who rejected among them said This is clearly magic!
Why Allah asked Eisa (AS) to recall His blessings upon HIM and HIS MOTHER only? Why not his father ?
Now the most important part
2350
2350 And We made the son of Marium and his mother a sign, and We gave them refuge on high ground, a place for resting and with a flowing stream.
"Aayat" means something unique or nothing is similar to aayat, like the aayaats of AlQuraan/AlKitaab is unique, tree, skies, sun, moon, shadow, air, water, everything is unique and they are not similar to anything, so they are aayaats.
Sorry for the long post.
Hope this may be of some help inshaAllah to you or to others.
May Allah guide us all in His path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
loxbox
Can someone prouve that Isa was born of a virgin ? is there a clear statement that she conceived while she was a virgin ?
Is the following verse not a proof?
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/temp26%203.47.gif
walam yamsasn basharun? and (has) not touch(ed) me any human?
even a kid can understand for what purpose Hazrat Mariam uttered these words, she would have been touched by many humans since her child hood but for "specific purpose" (inter-course) no one had touched her, as it is mentioned in the Ayat.
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loxbox
Is the following verse not a proof?http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/temp26%203.47.gif
walam yamsasn basharun? and (has) not touch(ed) me any human?
even a kid can understand for what purpose Hazrat Mariam uttered these words, she would have been touched by many humans since her child hood but for "specific purpose" (inter-course) no one had touched her, as it is mentioned in the Ayat.
You saying even a kid can understand this as a virgin !
but of course, he wasn't married when she get the news, that is a part of her belief in kalimat rabiha, she get the news even before marriage, and this is a sign , but " Lam Yamssasni Bashar " doesn't translate N oone touched me, but " I am not married."
because Lams is only for married people.
exemple
(Lam Yamssassni Bashar), meaning sexual touching by husband to his wife after marriageThose who had estranged their women, then they retracted what they had said, they shall free a slave before they have sexual contact between them. 583
If he cannot find any, then he shall fast two consecutive months before any sexual contact between them 584
or you have had sexual contact with the women
As you see , she was talking about LAMS, meaning marriage, and god god said that is easy for me.4the easy part isn't the sperm, but the marriage , the way to make her LAMAS in marriage.
that is why Allah said in twi verses, AHSANAT , and Ahsanat means married,
for a man , it is Ankaha
for a woman, allah don't use the word Ankahat, but Ahsanat . -
loxbox
but of course, he wasn't married when she get the news, that is a part of her belief in kalimat rabiha, she get the news even before marriage, and this is a sign , but " Lam Yamssasni Bashar " doesn't translate N oone touched me, but " I am not married."
brother, I really don't understand what you are trying to say
Who is this "he"?
and which word means "married"?For sake of debate let us assume that she was saying "how can I bore a Child? when I am not married?
So you agree that she was virgin till that time? or like most of Jews you believe she was having illicit relations with others?
If she was not married till the time of these Ayat and she was not having any illicit relationship as many Jews claim
then she was virgin before the birth of Isaa (As).
Now when the time of birth of Issa (AS) came read from the post of Muhmmad Khan2191 And the one who protected her chastity, so We blew into her from Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.
"Feeha" means "Into HER"If the birth of Issa (AS) was through normal process then why say "we made her and her son a sign for the world"?
Again look at Muhammad Khan posting the following Ayat
337 So her Lord accepted her a good acceptance, and made her grow into a good growth, and charged Zachariah with her. Every time Zachariah entered upon her in the temple enclosure, he found provisions with her. He said O Marium, from where did you get this? She said It is from Allah, for Allah provides for whom He wishes without reckoning.
Any one who has to get married or is to bear a child is not Isolated, and Husband is more likely to care of her wife (if there is any) rather than father.
By logic and by common sense both your argument is weak.
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loxbox
brother, I really don't understand what you are trying to sayWho is this "he"?
and which word means "married"?For sake of debate let us assume that she was saying "how can I bore a Child? when I am not married?
So you agree that she was virgin till that time? or like most of Jews you believe she was having illicit relations with others?
If she was not married till the time of these Ayat and she was not having any illicit relationship as many Jews claim
then she was virgin before the birth of Isaa (As).
Now when the time of birth of Issa (AS) came read from the post of Muhmmad KhanIf the birth of Issa (AS) was through normal process then why say "we made her and her son a sign for the world"?
Again look at Muhammad Khan posting the following Ayat
Any one who has to get married or is to bear a child is not Isolated, and Husband is more likely to care of her wife (if there is any) rather than father.By logic and by common sense both your argument is weak.
If the birth of Issa (AS) was through normal process then why say "we made her and her son a sign for the world"?
They are sign, because she abolished sisterhood, as a nun, and he refuted all religions of birth of a virgin and all the myths that come with it.the questin, is who is the messenger of god who was talking to her, and who told her i am to give you a child ? if not the husband than who was he ? remember Rouh is command, and rooh never been described as an angel, and god said he send angels and humans as messengers, but rooh is no angel, so who is the messneger of god who spoke to her .?
when she said that she was not married, it's obvious that she was a virgin, but after that the matter was decreed ! what matter ? for her to go through the process, or just get the child like magic ? !!!!!who was the messenger of god who was speaking to her?