Super frustrated
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Thanks for your thoughts JewishDude
However I have done all my thinking and contemplation in the past. I am soo beyond this issue... And I never judged her on her wearing a hijab, she judged me on me not wearing one. I couldn't care less what anyone is wearing, unless they were downright stark naked, then I wouldn't sit on a char they had just sat on (coz im a germophobe)
Peace Kukumber.
I always think of that when it comes to nudists too. I know they have group outings and stuff - do they take a towel with them the whole day so they have something to sit on?? Don't anyone answer if you do know, cos really I'm happy in my ignorance.
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peace,
Please cite the verse(s). Thanks.
If you are referring to 3359, it says no such thing.
I can do that.
?
3359 says exactly this, but since you will argue that it is context only I am forced to support my argument with another ayah
"And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their coverings over their bosoms?"
2431
Now the phrase ?that they may be recognised? in 3359 may apply only to that context, but it is offered as a reason for 2431 (a reason which was being exemplified within that context!). Even if you disagree with that, it is a pointless objection to raise because 2431 is just not context.
I mixed meanings by using the word ?mention? (implying specificity) and ?should? (implying principle discretion). According to my last paragraph, ?mention? is well-justified. ?Should? is justified although Sunnis will say that I am being too soft.
Now hypothetically if I say that all Muslims with eyesight below a certain standard should wear glasses, then that is saying that all people with bad eyesight SHOULD be recognisable (because logically everyone with bad eyesight will be recognisable (to people with normal eyesight!)). However, that does not mean that everyone with glasses is a Muslim. Likewise, it would be impossible for me to say that the Qur?an demands that all Muslim women should be recognisable conclusively as Muslims (because other women may wear modest clothing too). Therefore what I actually mean is that Muslim women should be recognisable within a standard of modesty. Non-Muslim women who happened to follow 3359 would enjoy the same benefit, but the ayah is simply specifying the purpose of the ordinance. They will be recognised as modest, and Muslim women are expected to be a segment of that category (after all, covering up does not help a woman to be recognised, and if the non-Muslim agitators already knew who the women were, it would not matter what manner of clothing they wore?).
Recall I said ??Muslim women should be recognisable as Muslims?. That sentence says that women who call themselves Muslims (and who are considered Muslims) should be recognisable as Muslims (e.g. a person who claims to have an I.Q .of 200 should act like it). If a man meets a woman whom he does not know is a Muslim, he may assume that she is unless she is a non-Muslim wearing something within the category of Qur?anic mandate (and these days common Muslim consensus). Muslim women fall into the category of modest women, and so ?every? woman within that category may be recognisable as Muslim whether or not she is (based on that one criterion).
Now to the pith
Clothing itself is obviously not enough to deduce one?s beliefs, but all women who call themselves Muslim should be recognisable thus. Obeying the other commandments will confirm their religion (notice I did not specify that they should be recognisable by clothing alone).
I hope that my thinking is clearer now. The answer to your question is thus every ayah talking about Muslim womens' behaviour.
Salaam.
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peace MM,
3359 is 100% contextual.
Exactly. Hence you clarified with, e.g. "...may be recognisable as Muslim..." and "Obeying the other commandments will confirm their religion".
3359 is 100% justification for 2431 (though it is just one reason and hence why I argue that it is partly why the Qur'an says that Muslim women should be recongisable as Muslims). "...may be recognisable as Muslim..." meant modest clothing may not always conform to a modern Muslim consensus (though it is still modest).
In your eyes is there a difference in the basic material (forgive the pun) commandments between 2431 and 3359?
Peace.
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peace,
AQ = al quran
the Qur'an says that Muslim women should be recongisable as Muslims).
AQ says no such thing. YOU say it does, even though you admit one cannot deduce beliefs from clothing and mention other things such as deeds that would confirm her religion.
Perhaps I can help clarify what is plausible from what you're saying... IF a woman dresses in accordance with the guidance in AQ and the dress code environment that she is in is not like the guidance in AQ then dressing in accordance with it is more likely to imply she is "Muslim" than not, however this is no guarantee that she is "muslim" (small "m", one who complies/surrenders/makes peace) in the overall context, unless it is meant she is "muslim" with regard to this specific dress code command (i.e. she is one who complies/surrenders to this command).
In your eyes is there a difference in the basic material (forgive the pun) commandments between 2431 and 3359?
Yes there is a difference. Simply read the verses in question to see the difference. As I said before 3359 is specific to context, this is FACT.
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peace,
AQ = al quran
AQ says no such thing. YOU say it does, even though you admit one cannot deduce beliefs from clothing and mention other things such as deeds that would confirm her religion.
Perhaps I can help clarify what is plausible from what you're saying... IF a woman dresses in accordance with the guidance in AQ and the dress code environment that she is in is not like the guidance in AQ then dressing in accordance with it is more likely to imply she is "Muslim" than not, however this is no guarantee that she is "muslim" (small "m", one who complies/surrenders/makes peace) in the overall context, unless it is meant she is "muslim" with regard to this specific dress code command (i.e. she is one who complies/surrenders to this command).
Yes there is a difference. Simply read the verses in question to see the difference. As I said before 3359 is specific to context, this is FACT.
It certainly says such a thing (3359) and they HAD to be recognizable in that instance for specific reasons. Even though clothing is not in itself sufficient, apparently in that context it would be (either because every non-Muslim woman was immodest, or more likely because there was consensus on Muslimah fashion ? in which case the Qur?an is mentioning a degree of homogeneity in this matter and replying to you). The fact is Muslim women must be distinguishable from immodest women. If they cannot be distinguished from modest non-Muslim women, that is fine since according to you every little thing that we do in accordance with the Qur?an makes us that much ?muslim? (thus no reason for you to even argue!). According to my idea of Muslims (i.e. belief and all), Muslim women should still be distinguishable from the modest non-Muslim women by their overall conduct (including modesty). You will agree given my prior reasoning that this is quite a pointless discussion, and that generally Muslim women should be recognisable as Muslimahs. They had to then, so can you prove that 3359 was not simply a reminder/reason for 2431? I am failing to see a difference between 3359 and 2431, and so how can I safely (Qur?anically) conclude that Muslim women SHOULD not have to be recognisable? The key word in my phrase was ?should?, allowing in part for the fact that clothing is not enough to distinguish one?s religious belief. In this case we say that they should be recognisable in generally liberal societies, and that practically and socially it is better to be recognised by one?s own brothers and sisters. In non-Muslim societies where modesty is already a virtue, one need only be recognisable by their overall conduct (including modesty), but the practical reason still applies. In such (unlikely though I am indulging this point) circumstances, people should have to ask Muslim women if they are Muslims simply to confirm, and not out of doubt.
Definition of recognise
Perceive the likeness of.
http//en.wiktionary.org/wiki/recognise
(See my post on this thread before the last)
You provided no reasoned answer to my question, and you closed your response with a direct contradiction to your signature
?All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a FACT.?
Apologies; I like to rub people up the wrong way. It is just what I do.
Salaam.
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@ MesMorial
Just beginning to learn how to study Quran after a couple years of having "scholars" and traditions interpret the Quran for me.
You suggest we say that 3359 is not contextual, if I read you correctly. Will I then look at 3360 and 3361 as not to be interpreted by their context, too?
Peace,
Debbie
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@ MesMorial
Just beginning to learn how to study Quran after a couple years of having "scholars" and traditions interpret the Quran for me.
You suggest we say that 3359 is not contextual, if I read you correctly. Will I then look at 3360 and 3361 as not to be interpreted by their context, too?
Peace,
Debbie
Salaam Debbie;
It is impossible for me to answer you because I do not know which part of the ayah you are talking about. You simply refer to "3359". E.g. do you mean the commandment, or the reason for the commandment? One is relevant whilst the other is not.
Peace.
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I truly struggle in learning how to study Quran, to find a method...
I thought "in context" means reading as many ayaat on either side of the verse one is specifically focused on to find where the thought breaks occur...to determine the where, why, who -about the specific verse.
My ususal way of studying a text would be to say that beginning with 3359 and ending with 3368 everything is addressed the the prophet. In most subjects of study the alternation between sections addressed to "O prophet" and "O you who believe" would be very significant in interpretation. What signal do I look for other than that to know who the ayah is written to?
Is this a valid way to begin topical Quran studies?
Peace,
--Debbie
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I truly struggle in learning how to study Quran, to find a method...
I thought "in context" means reading as many ayaat on either side of the verse one is specifically focused on to find where the thought breaks occur...to determine the where, why, who -about the specific verse.
My ususal way of studying a text would be to say that beginning with 3359 and ending with 3368 everything is addressed the the prophet. In most subjects of study the alternation between sections addressed to "O prophet" and "O you who believe" would be very significant in interpretation. What signal do I look for other than that to know who the ayah is written to?
Is this a valid way to begin topical Quran studies?
Peace,
--Debbie
Salaam Debbie;
That is a sensible question. As regards to context, the basic Message though revealed in a context simply uses history and sometimes the (then) present to convey and encourage its point
?And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.?
1854
As far as I am aware all religious instructions given to the Prophet were also given to the believers. For example, 3359 stated that clothing should "cover", and the ayah gave a reason for this. However, 2431 is at least as strict with regards to hijab
"And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their coverings over their bosoms?"
2431
It would seem that 3359 is applicable for all time
" the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah."
3362
However this merely means that whenever a similar situation arises, the purpose of 2431 (a permanent commandment) will come into good use whilst the conspiracy of hypocrites, slandererers and AGITATORS (the main reason for the 3360-61 punishment which is the same as 533) will be dealt with (according to 533).
This is an example of 1854. I hope that it answers your question regarding 3359.
Similarly when the Qur'an directly addresses Muhammad (SAW), the commandment itself is contextual but still we should apply it in a similar situation (e.g. 6012). Muhammad (SAW) was a community leader (464-65) and the Messengers "themselves" purified believers (2129) by enjoining believers to also judge and act by the Qur'an (7157). Thus specific instructions to Messengers themselves are contextual but represent specific instances of the Qur'an instructing them on how to deal with particular situations. We must look at the context in order to understand when the commandment is appropriate. However we must also look to the whole Qur'an to see how these instructions are consistent with the general (the non-contextual) backbone of Qur'anic guidance. In the case of hijab, it was not confined to that context. In the cases of 95 and 929, they were examples of the defensive war-policy being implemented in specific circumstances, and thus the Qur'an made sure that they were explained (as per 7519).
Peace and good luck with your study.
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Just want to put a little comment on the identification of muslim women. If I want to superficially and visually show that I am a muslim, surely I can do it in many ways, and not limited to wearing a headscarf. I can wear a T-shirt that says "I'm a Muslim, talk to me.", or a necklace with the word Allah. The "consensus" of muslim scholars does not constitute God's words, and will not make it the preferable option of how to dress "the Islamic way". Besides, some Jews and Christians do wear the veils, and so do the Hindus in some South Asian regions. The veil is not exclusive to Islamic tradition, and does not necessarily identify our "muslimness" (I was mistaken as a Christian on a few occasion when I veiled my head).
Besides the spirit of covering is modesty and recognition as free believing women, so that they will not be harassed.
O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons that is most convenient, that they should be known and not molested and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Therefore the "jilbab" (and not the veil by the way) serves as a protection and not merely to visually display the "muslimness" of a woman. The message of that verse is very clear. In contemporary language it can read like this wear modest clothes outside so people won't get the wrong idea and start molesting you.
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Salam,
As far as I can tell, 33/59 does not say they should be recognised as Muslims. It says yu'rafna fa la yu'dhayna - 'known thus not harmed'. Known as what?
Another point is that if the jalaabib is actually referring to a physical garment, then I know (as I'm sure does everyone else) of instances where women dressed in jilbaab are harmed precisely because they've been recognised as Muslim. So why does the verse say that they will not be harmed if they are recognised?
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peace all,
MM,
I can only repeat what I said in reply 24. To me, it is clear your own interpretation of 3359 that is causing your error. If you do not believe me, feel free to show this verse to anyone and see if they conclude what you do. Let us know what happens.
Secondly, saying I regard something as a fact is independent to saying do not take anything I say as a fact (as one should seek knowledge and verify). e.g. It is a fact that this sentence is written in English, yet I do not want anyone to take my word for it, as they should use their own knowledge, apply reasoning, verify etc.BA,
In contemporary language it can read like this wear modest clothes outside so people won't get the wrong idea and start molesting you.
That is not the message I read from the verses. It is situation-specific, and if one cannot re-create those specific circumstances, the verses simply do not work.
Mushu,
"recognised", most likely it means as being from the mumineen. That does not of course mean they ARE mumineen, in the true sense of the word. -
Peace everyone, I apologize for diverting the thread. (Wakas' post I found as I finished this--will look at carefully after "Post."
I have strong feeings about the hostility American hijabiyya face. Sadly it is the opposite of protection, I know from experience. http//www.altmuslimah.com/a/b/reva/3822/
I believe modesty in dress is very important for any one, male or female, and we will each answer for our practices. http//www.altmuslimah.com/a/b/mca/4191/
@MesMorial Thank you for your time and thought with this! You told me that
It would seem that 3359 is applicable for all time
" the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah."
3362^ Of course, eternally! that part of the ayah is never wrong. But don't we use 'normal' study and interpretation skills? This is the beginning of a section addressed to the prophet at a certain time. That part of 3362^ is dealing with many actions (below), how do we say which action has context applied and which action is free from its context? Am I able to just take any phrase I want, anyway I want, if it ""sounds eternally true" to me, and kinda mystify it, or make it spiritual. I hoped to study with reason and logic (if I have the ability to.)
3359 O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the women of the
believers that they should lengthen upon themselves their outer
garments. That is better so that they will not be recognized and
harmed. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
3360 If the hypocrites and those with disease in their hearts and those
who spread lies in the city do not refrain, then We will let you
overpower them, then they will not be able to remain as your
neighbors except for a short while.
3361 They are cursed wherever they are encountered, and they are
taken and killed in numbers.
3362 This is the way of God with those who have passed away before,
and you will not find any change in the way of God.May God bless us all.
--Debbie
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Peace all,
From 3359
My understanding of it would be
...that they should lengthen upon themselves their outer garments, that is better so that they will not be recognized and thus not harmed.
This is an advice to women with high morals to lengthen their clothes when they are outside in order to make themselves different from other women who may be dressed in a way that is sexually inviting to harassment from men.
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@ Kukumbur - awww ) hug for you. It's hard isn't it. I don't like having ''those'' convos either.
Yeah I like wearing it for identification. I am not proud of it though - it brings me abuse and also many have assumed that I am very fundamentalist. I did wear abaya only for a long time. THough that was mainly due to husband wanting me too.
I always think of that when it comes to nudists too. I know they have group outings and stuff - do they take a towel with them the whole day so they have something to sit on?? Don't anyone answer if you do know, cos really I'm happy in my ignorance.
Thanks Rana. Hugs back at you.
Well many people that wear it as identity, and suffer some abuse at the same time, state its a sacrifice they are willing to make for God. And if its important to them so be it.
The sacrifice I make for God, and for myself is to be polite and patient, when put in these circumstances. Conflict over irrelevant things does not make for a good work environment, especially a work environment where people's lives are at stake. As someone that has probably 20+ years of experience, versus my 1year 1 month, as long as she is willing to be a team player, and share her expertise when there is a need for it, she can think whatever she wants of me at a personal level.
I actually have not worked with her again yet since that day.
Kukumber
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Besides the spirit of covering is modesty and recognition as free believing women, so that they will not be harassed.
O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons that is most convenient, that they should be known and not molested and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Therefore the "jilbab" (and not the veil by the way) serves as a protection and not merely to visually display the "muslimness" of a woman. The message of that verse is very clear. In contemporary language it can read like this wear modest clothes outside so people won't get the wrong idea and start molesting you.
This was addressed in detail by my previous posts. The Qur'an mentions that they should be recognisable in a context (3359). The Qur'an brings the material commandment in 2431, thus women should ALWAYS be recognisable as Muslims, or rather all modest women SHOULD bear a likeness to Muslim women (because Muslim women should also be modest). Headscarf is not a definite requirement in the Qur'an, but it fulfils the spirit and it is certianly not unIslamic.
Peace.
