Super frustrated
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@ MesMorial
Just beginning to learn how to study Quran after a couple years of having "scholars" and traditions interpret the Quran for me.
You suggest we say that 3359 is not contextual, if I read you correctly. Will I then look at 3360 and 3361 as not to be interpreted by their context, too?
Peace,
Debbie
Salaam Debbie;
It is impossible for me to answer you because I do not know which part of the ayah you are talking about. You simply refer to "3359". E.g. do you mean the commandment, or the reason for the commandment? One is relevant whilst the other is not.
Peace.
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I truly struggle in learning how to study Quran, to find a method...
I thought "in context" means reading as many ayaat on either side of the verse one is specifically focused on to find where the thought breaks occur...to determine the where, why, who -about the specific verse.
My ususal way of studying a text would be to say that beginning with 3359 and ending with 3368 everything is addressed the the prophet. In most subjects of study the alternation between sections addressed to "O prophet" and "O you who believe" would be very significant in interpretation. What signal do I look for other than that to know who the ayah is written to?
Is this a valid way to begin topical Quran studies?
Peace,
--Debbie
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I truly struggle in learning how to study Quran, to find a method...
I thought "in context" means reading as many ayaat on either side of the verse one is specifically focused on to find where the thought breaks occur...to determine the where, why, who -about the specific verse.
My ususal way of studying a text would be to say that beginning with 3359 and ending with 3368 everything is addressed the the prophet. In most subjects of study the alternation between sections addressed to "O prophet" and "O you who believe" would be very significant in interpretation. What signal do I look for other than that to know who the ayah is written to?
Is this a valid way to begin topical Quran studies?
Peace,
--Debbie
Salaam Debbie;
That is a sensible question. As regards to context, the basic Message though revealed in a context simply uses history and sometimes the (then) present to convey and encourage its point
?And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.?
1854
As far as I am aware all religious instructions given to the Prophet were also given to the believers. For example, 3359 stated that clothing should "cover", and the ayah gave a reason for this. However, 2431 is at least as strict with regards to hijab
"And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their coverings over their bosoms?"
2431
It would seem that 3359 is applicable for all time
" the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah."
3362
However this merely means that whenever a similar situation arises, the purpose of 2431 (a permanent commandment) will come into good use whilst the conspiracy of hypocrites, slandererers and AGITATORS (the main reason for the 3360-61 punishment which is the same as 533) will be dealt with (according to 533).
This is an example of 1854. I hope that it answers your question regarding 3359.
Similarly when the Qur'an directly addresses Muhammad (SAW), the commandment itself is contextual but still we should apply it in a similar situation (e.g. 6012). Muhammad (SAW) was a community leader (464-65) and the Messengers "themselves" purified believers (2129) by enjoining believers to also judge and act by the Qur'an (7157). Thus specific instructions to Messengers themselves are contextual but represent specific instances of the Qur'an instructing them on how to deal with particular situations. We must look at the context in order to understand when the commandment is appropriate. However we must also look to the whole Qur'an to see how these instructions are consistent with the general (the non-contextual) backbone of Qur'anic guidance. In the case of hijab, it was not confined to that context. In the cases of 95 and 929, they were examples of the defensive war-policy being implemented in specific circumstances, and thus the Qur'an made sure that they were explained (as per 7519).
Peace and good luck with your study.
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Just want to put a little comment on the identification of muslim women. If I want to superficially and visually show that I am a muslim, surely I can do it in many ways, and not limited to wearing a headscarf. I can wear a T-shirt that says "I'm a Muslim, talk to me.", or a necklace with the word Allah. The "consensus" of muslim scholars does not constitute God's words, and will not make it the preferable option of how to dress "the Islamic way". Besides, some Jews and Christians do wear the veils, and so do the Hindus in some South Asian regions. The veil is not exclusive to Islamic tradition, and does not necessarily identify our "muslimness" (I was mistaken as a Christian on a few occasion when I veiled my head).
Besides the spirit of covering is modesty and recognition as free believing women, so that they will not be harassed.
O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons that is most convenient, that they should be known and not molested and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Therefore the "jilbab" (and not the veil by the way) serves as a protection and not merely to visually display the "muslimness" of a woman. The message of that verse is very clear. In contemporary language it can read like this wear modest clothes outside so people won't get the wrong idea and start molesting you.
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Salam,
As far as I can tell, 33/59 does not say they should be recognised as Muslims. It says yu'rafna fa la yu'dhayna - 'known thus not harmed'. Known as what?
Another point is that if the jalaabib is actually referring to a physical garment, then I know (as I'm sure does everyone else) of instances where women dressed in jilbaab are harmed precisely because they've been recognised as Muslim. So why does the verse say that they will not be harmed if they are recognised?
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peace all,
MM,
I can only repeat what I said in reply 24. To me, it is clear your own interpretation of 3359 that is causing your error. If you do not believe me, feel free to show this verse to anyone and see if they conclude what you do. Let us know what happens.
Secondly, saying I regard something as a fact is independent to saying do not take anything I say as a fact (as one should seek knowledge and verify). e.g. It is a fact that this sentence is written in English, yet I do not want anyone to take my word for it, as they should use their own knowledge, apply reasoning, verify etc.BA,
In contemporary language it can read like this wear modest clothes outside so people won't get the wrong idea and start molesting you.
That is not the message I read from the verses. It is situation-specific, and if one cannot re-create those specific circumstances, the verses simply do not work.
Mushu,
"recognised", most likely it means as being from the mumineen. That does not of course mean they ARE mumineen, in the true sense of the word. -
Peace everyone, I apologize for diverting the thread. (Wakas' post I found as I finished this--will look at carefully after "Post."
I have strong feeings about the hostility American hijabiyya face. Sadly it is the opposite of protection, I know from experience. http//www.altmuslimah.com/a/b/reva/3822/
I believe modesty in dress is very important for any one, male or female, and we will each answer for our practices. http//www.altmuslimah.com/a/b/mca/4191/
@MesMorial Thank you for your time and thought with this! You told me that
It would seem that 3359 is applicable for all time
" the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah."
3362^ Of course, eternally! that part of the ayah is never wrong. But don't we use 'normal' study and interpretation skills? This is the beginning of a section addressed to the prophet at a certain time. That part of 3362^ is dealing with many actions (below), how do we say which action has context applied and which action is free from its context? Am I able to just take any phrase I want, anyway I want, if it ""sounds eternally true" to me, and kinda mystify it, or make it spiritual. I hoped to study with reason and logic (if I have the ability to.)
3359 O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the women of the
believers that they should lengthen upon themselves their outer
garments. That is better so that they will not be recognized and
harmed. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
3360 If the hypocrites and those with disease in their hearts and those
who spread lies in the city do not refrain, then We will let you
overpower them, then they will not be able to remain as your
neighbors except for a short while.
3361 They are cursed wherever they are encountered, and they are
taken and killed in numbers.
3362 This is the way of God with those who have passed away before,
and you will not find any change in the way of God.May God bless us all.
--Debbie
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Peace all,
From 3359
My understanding of it would be
...that they should lengthen upon themselves their outer garments, that is better so that they will not be recognized and thus not harmed.
This is an advice to women with high morals to lengthen their clothes when they are outside in order to make themselves different from other women who may be dressed in a way that is sexually inviting to harassment from men.
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@ Kukumbur - awww ) hug for you. It's hard isn't it. I don't like having ''those'' convos either.
Yeah I like wearing it for identification. I am not proud of it though - it brings me abuse and also many have assumed that I am very fundamentalist. I did wear abaya only for a long time. THough that was mainly due to husband wanting me too.
I always think of that when it comes to nudists too. I know they have group outings and stuff - do they take a towel with them the whole day so they have something to sit on?? Don't anyone answer if you do know, cos really I'm happy in my ignorance.
Thanks Rana. Hugs back at you.
Well many people that wear it as identity, and suffer some abuse at the same time, state its a sacrifice they are willing to make for God. And if its important to them so be it.
The sacrifice I make for God, and for myself is to be polite and patient, when put in these circumstances. Conflict over irrelevant things does not make for a good work environment, especially a work environment where people's lives are at stake. As someone that has probably 20+ years of experience, versus my 1year 1 month, as long as she is willing to be a team player, and share her expertise when there is a need for it, she can think whatever she wants of me at a personal level.
I actually have not worked with her again yet since that day.
Kukumber
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Besides the spirit of covering is modesty and recognition as free believing women, so that they will not be harassed.
O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons that is most convenient, that they should be known and not molested and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Therefore the "jilbab" (and not the veil by the way) serves as a protection and not merely to visually display the "muslimness" of a woman. The message of that verse is very clear. In contemporary language it can read like this wear modest clothes outside so people won't get the wrong idea and start molesting you.
This was addressed in detail by my previous posts. The Qur'an mentions that they should be recognisable in a context (3359). The Qur'an brings the material commandment in 2431, thus women should ALWAYS be recognisable as Muslims, or rather all modest women SHOULD bear a likeness to Muslim women (because Muslim women should also be modest). Headscarf is not a definite requirement in the Qur'an, but it fulfils the spirit and it is certianly not unIslamic.
Peace.
