Mushu's thoughts on siyam/fasting

Mushu

Salam,

And welcome to another edition of Mushu's Thoughts. My name is Mushu, I'll be your host for this evening )

I've been looking into the concept of abstinence (swm) in quran. The following are some notes I've been making. I'm not the originator of any of the ideas, I've just gathered the research of others into what I think is a coherent explanation of siyam. Thanks to my fb friends and particularly abdalquran.

These are my current thoughts and are obviously subject to change. As always, your thoughts and criticisms are welcome )

My contention is that SWM means abstinence, and therefore must be understood in context with the verses it appears in. I do not believe swm means to abstain from food, water and sex during daylight hours.

2/183-187

This passage is where I believe siyam is defined. Other occurrences of the word can be explained through the understanding we get from the following verses.

Verses that lead up to the siyam verses are of types of corruption

170 - blind following and maintaining the status quo i.e. rejecting quranic reformation
174 - corruption and distortion of the message to the society. This crime is not a personal one, it is hiding the message from others for a worldly gain. The verse hints there is asymmetry in society, meaning some people hold the keys to knowledge and are keeping it from others
176 - power struggles

Now Allah tells us how to fight such corruption
177 - the characteristic of the mutaqqi
178 - just reaction to crime
180 - conflict avoidance i.e. when death approaches, manage your affairs to not leave a power struggle or hard feelings behind.

Which leads to the abstinence verses beginning from 183

2/183 Oh you who believe, prescribed for you the abstinence as was prescribed to those from before you so that you are righteous.

Note the theme leading up to this verse fighting corruption in society and becoming righteous. We're not explicitly told here what to abstain from, but we can connect the dots with what preceded the verse.

2/184 (During) A number (of) days, so whoever is among you sick or on a journey then prepare/count on other days. And on those able, a ransom of feeding poor so whoever obeys good then it is good for him. And to abstain is good for you if you knew.

2/185 Obvious-sign of intense-heat is whereupon al quran is revealed, (as) a guidance for mankind and a clarification of the guidance and the Criterion. So whoever witnesses among you the obvious-sign then should abstain it and whoever is sick or on a journey then prepare from alternative days. Intends Allah with you the ease and not intends with you the hardship and fulfil the preparation/period and magnify Allah on what He guided you and you may be grateful.

I think ramadhan is a condition of hardship, pain etc. Keeping in theme with fighting corruption in society, I think the ramadhan here is symbolic for a bad state/condition of society. It is when this happens that the quran is revealed to those who take heed, as a guidance and criterion for right and wrong. You can know that a ramadhan is present because it will be made distinct by quranic guidance.

So whoever witnesses this bad, intense condition should abstain it i.e. not support it or they should abstain from the good things in life to fight the corruption. However, if you have a sickness/inability to abstain from it or you are on a journey, then you must prepare to wean yourself off the corruption and be ready to abstain from it in other days.

2/187 Permitted for you (during) nights of abstinence was the obscenity to your nisa. They are garments for you and you are garments for them. Knows Allah that you used to betray yourselves so He turned towards you and He forgave on you. So now have relations with them and seek what prescribed Allah for you. And consume and drink until becomes distinct to you the white thread from the black thread of the dawn . Then fulfil the abstinence until the night and do not have relations with them while you are devoted in the masaajid. These are the limits of Allah so do not approach them. Thus Allah makes His verses clear for the people so they may be righteous.

'Nisa' is not 'women'. I haven't finished my study on this word yet, but my preliminary understanding is that nisa are people within our community who are dependent on others in some way. Nisa can be both men and women. I know this might not be convincing to everyone, but it may be worth noting that there is no singular form for nisa, even though there is a singular form for rijaal (men). Also, 12/30 refers to niswatun using the masculine verb qaala instead of the feminine qaalat.

'Rafathu' is not sex, as far as I can tell. According to LL, rafathu has a root meaning of obscene behaviour, which fits better in this verse as well as 2/197.

'Permitted for you' doesn't seem to mean the permission came from Allah. It seems the deviance of the people made the rafathu of nisa permissible. Allah describes this as a betrayal.

'Kulu wa ishrabu' does not mean 'eat and drink food'. Food and water is not mentioned anywhere in the verse. This phrase is metaphorical for indulging and enjoying God's provisions. Note how the phrase follows the instruction to have good relations with your nisa. 'Drink' is used metaphorically in 2/93 and 'eat' is used metaphorically in 2/188.

Night

Laylata (night) is metaphorical here in 2/187. The night is considered a time of rest, stillness and reflection e.g. 10/67, 17/79. Thus, it seems to me that the night of siyam is the end of abstinence, when the ramadhan of your community has been quelled and you reach a state of stillness.

The verse says that you used to abuse the nights of siyam. After the abstinence i.e. when you reached a stillness, peace in society, you used to abuse your nisa. The goodness of your abstinence was undone, because of this.

Allah says this is unacceptable but has forgiven your transgression. Now you should baashiruhunna your nisa i.e. have good relations with them on a mutual basis.

Thus rafathu and baashiruhunna are contrasted in this verse, which is not evident when reading translations.

The dawn

2/187 tells us to consume and indulge in the good life until the white thread becomes distinct with the black thread of the dawn. I believe al-fajr is also metaphorical and it follows the metaphorical night we just encountered. It is the new beginning after the abstinence has achieved its goal.

The believer is on the lookout for the black and white thread after the new beginning.

Black and white are words to symbolise clear distinction. Allah is saying live the good life until something distinct happens requiring your abstinence. When you see this distinction (when you can see the black from the white), abstain from the bad thing until the night; fulfil the abstinence until you've reached a condition of peace and can rest again. The night (time of peace and stillness) will be followed by another 'dawn' where the believer should once again be on the lookout for the white and black. This is cyclical, and is constant in all communities.

Anyone who has witnessed dawn and sunrise will know that there is no black thread nor white thread. The period of dawn is simply a gradual change from darkness to light. By the time sunrise comes (when the sun breaks on the horizon), the sky is relatively light anyway. This is another reason as to why I do not believe al-fajr in this verse refers to the time of day.

Masaajid

One of the odd features of the traditional interpretation of 2/187 is the prohibition of having sex in the mosques. Why is God telling us not to have sex in the mosques? Is this something we would normally attempt, thus requiring an explicit prohibition from our Lord?

I do not believe masjid is a building. It is a time/place/state of obedience to Allah in establishing the deen. Here, Allah speaks of the other end of the spectrum. He forbid the rafathu of nisa, now Allah forbids those who court the nisa and compromise the deen by not being true to masaajid. One should not buy favours from them nor commit nepotism or anything of the like. When one is dedicated to the masaajid they are establishing the deen which must not be compromised by overly friendly relations with nisa.

This then leads to 2/188

2/188 Do not consume your wealth between you unjustly and present with it to the authorities so that you may consume a part from the other people sinfully while you know.

If 187 was really about abstaining from food and sex, it makes 188 seem completely out of place. So from examining the theme of these verses, siyam seems to be an abstinence from corruption in the land. Allah commands action, and shows us apathy is unacceptable.

As you can tell, my reading of the verse is metaphorical, as I do not believe a literal reading fits in with the wider theme of the passage. I do not see anything that suggests siyam here is to stop eating and having sexual relations during daylight hours.

With the understanding that siyam is to abstain from something, we can then check the other instances where swm is mentioned and determine what we should be abstaining from in context.

For an alternative (although just as metaphorical) understanding of this passage, check out http//quranology.wordpress.com/2011/02/02/ch-2-vs-183-187/

2/196

2/196 And fulfil the hajj and the umra for Allah so if you are restricted then whatever is easy from the guidance and do not remove your heads until reaches the guidance to lawful . Thus whoever is among you is ill or has with him a harm of his head then substitute from abstinence or charity or devotion . So when you are certain then whoever benefited with the umra towards the hajj then (fulfil) whatever is easy from the guidance . Thus whoever can not find then abstain three days in al hajj and seven when you return. This is ten in full. This is for those whose people are not coming down to the prohibited place/state of acknowledgement. And be conscious of Allah and know that Allah is strong in following up.

How you understand the above verse depends on how you understand hajj and umra. My rough understanding is the one presented here http//quranwiki.net/index.php?title=Hajj

I consider hajj to be a curing of wrong thinking (maybe through debate/discussions) that may be happening in society, and establish al bait i.e. a secure condition where quran is the guiding force for the society. Hajj is a demonstration of quranic guidance, where people can witness the benefits of a functioning society.

My commentary of the verse is as follows Fulfil the hajj through logical and reasoned discussions and witnessing a working model and then attempt to IMPLEMENT them. This is not hajj for the sake of it. If you are restricted in your understanding, then do not stop attempting to understand until the guidance has been made clear as lawful in your head. This is to stop people upholding laws they don't even understand, which becomes harmful for society in the long run.

However, if you are ill or not in a healthy mental state, you are not required to partake in the hajj and thus should substitute this effort with something else either abstain or give sadaqa to the cause of the hajj, or devote yourself to good acts.

What is the abstinence here? I believe the abstinence is to withdraw from implementing the results of hajj for a period until you feel better and understand. It is necessary to understand before attempting to act.

Once you are certain of the guidance concluded from the hajj, you should implement that which is easy according to your ability. If you cannot find anything easy to implement, abstain from acting for a while until you are able to do so.

4/92 and 5/89

4/92 And not is for a believer that he kills a believer except mistakenly and whoever killed a believer mistakenly then liberating of a guarded believer and an obligation is submitted to his people unless that they are charitable . So if he was from a people transgressing for you and he was a believer then liberating a guarded believer. And if he was from a people between you and between them a covenant, then an obligation is submitted to his folk and liberating of a guarded believer. Thus whoever does not find then abstain two obvious-signs consecutively repenting from Allah and is Allah All-Knowing All-Wise.

Here, you are given the option of abstaining from paying the obligation for a while if you do not find the means to pay.

I think the ethos here is that you should not harm the well-being of yourself and that of your family if you cannot pay, and the one's who were wronged should not insist on payment when it is clear it can not be paid without severe difficulty. Thus an abstinence is allowed to give time for the payment to be settled.

This is the same for 5/89.

5/89 Not will you be called to account by Allah with utterences in your oath but He will call you to account with what you contracted of oaths. So its covering is feeding ten poor persons of moderation what you feed your folk or clothe them or liberating a guarded one. So whoever does not find then abstain three days. That is the covering of your oaths when you swore. And guard your oaths. Thus makes clear Allah to you His signs so that you may be grateful.

The abstinence is temporary and gives time to settle to dispute. I do not believe the obligation is lifted, simply because you can not find the means. I believe Allah is encouraging us to abstain for a while to give us the opportunity to pay what we're due.

5/95

5/95 Oh you who believe do not kill the game whilst you are denied . And whoever killed it among you intentionally then recompense is similar to what he killed of the blessings , judging with it two possessors of fairness among you, as a guidance reaching al ka'ba. Or a covering of providing poor people or an equivalent . That is abstinence for he may taste results of his affair. Pardoned Allah that what has passed and whoever returned then Allah will take retribution from him, and Allah is All-Mighty, Owner of Retribution.*

Obviously, there are no full stops/periods in the Arabic, I've inserted them to separate what I believe are phrasal structures and for ease of reading.

So from my understanding, intentionally killing al sayda whilst prohibited from doing so (for whatever reason) requires some form of compensation in the way of replacing the value of what was lost. If this is not possible or not practical, then poor people should be provided for as an alternative.

At this point my translation differs from the traditional understanding. From the translations I've seen, the next part suggests if we can't feed poor people we should fast an equivalent . I couldn't really make sense of what this means. Fast a number of days equivalent to how many people we would have fed? So if we were going to feed twenty people but can't afford it, we should fast for twenty days? I personally find this to be a forced reading.

I think the equivalent is referring to doing something of equivalent goodness to feeding poor people if that option is not available.

This allows a new phrase to begin with 'thalika', after which siyam is mentioned. From my current understanding, there's nothing grammatically incorrect about adopting this structure.

I think the process itself is being described as an abstinence i.e. you are depriving yourself of things so as to repay what you took when you broke your oath.

19/26

19/26 So eat and drink and settle in view and if you see from the human anyone then say, "Indeed I warned for The Most Gracious abstinence so not I will speak today to man."

The abstinence is not from speaking, as commonly understood. Maryam is being commanded to say something, so how can the abstinence be from speaking? It could be that Maryam was told to abstain from speaking about Isa as demonstrated in 19/29. Either way, the abstinence is not from speaking, nor does it seem to be from food and water either.

And finally

58/4

58/1 Certainly has Allah heard the speech of the one who argues with you, concerning her partner and directs her complaint to Allah . And Allah hears your dialogue; indeed, Allah is Hearing and Seeing.

58/2 Those who overcome among you from their nisa. They are not their mothers. Not their mothers except those who begot them. And indeed, they are saying an objectionable statement and a falsehood. But indeed, Allah is Pardoning and Forgiving.

58/3 And those who make overcome from their nisa then return on what they said, then liberating a guarded one from before that they both touch that you are instructed with and Allah is All-Aware with what you do.

58/4 And whoever does not find then abstain two obvious signs consecutively from before that they both touch . So who is not able then providing sixty poor. That is for you to believe in Allah and His Messenger; and those are the limits of Allah . And for the disbelievers is a painful punishment.

I currently do not understand what these verses are referring to, other than an oppression of nisa (and no, I don't believe it's about calling your wife your mother). So the nature of the siyam is not entirely clear to me at this moment. However, I still do not see the abstinence as being from food, water and sex during daylight hours.

Wakas

peace Mushu,

I read most of it. A lot to take in. I have read much of these alternative explanations before, but as has been always the case in my experience, they are poorly evidenced and cross-referenced, often lack logic, and at best provide an ok fit with the data. You discussed a lot of different things, so it might be better to study one part in detail at a time, see if it holds weight etc.

Mushu

Peace Wakas,

peace Mushu,

I read most of it. A lot to take in. I have read much of these alternative explanations before, but as has been always the case in my experience, they are poorly evidenced and cross-referenced, often lack logic, and at best provide an ok fit with the data. You discussed a lot of different things, so it might be better to study one part in detail at a time, see if it holds weight etc.

Thanks for your thoughts. Yea, these are preliminary notes whilst I study each bit in more depth. I think its better to post research in progress so people can point out if I'm going completely off track, saving me from wasting further time on it.

As a base, however, 2/183-187 is the only passage that gives any evidence as to what siyam actually is. The other occurrences are worded in such a way that the reader is meant to already know the definition. Looking at 2/183-187, I simply can't see how siyam is abstinence from food, water and sex in daylight hours.

abdalquran

Shall I kick Wakky-boy's arse for you, Mush?

Wakas

peace,

mushu, I appreciate its a work in progress, but as i said, taking it one part at a time should be more beneficial in terms of accuracy. As a side note i have held the view for a long time that sawm is better rendered as abstinence and said this as early as 2004 http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8961.msg31534#msg31534 and many other subsequent posts.

abdalquran, lol. Dude, if you have read a solid article on a certain subject with a rigorous methodology, feel free to post it. In the past i have asked evidence from you on some alternative understandings but the evidence has been lacking, e.g. 56, 443.

As always i am open to any ideas.

abdalquran

Wakas, firstly, we have to HAVE a rigorous methodology. Then we can start to apply it.

Mushu

peace,

mushu, I appreciate its a work in progress, but as i said, taking it one part at a time should be more beneficial in terms of accuracy.

Sure. I actually did start one part at a time, so that post is an accumulation of that process.

You could start with 2/183-187 if you like? What's your understanding of that passage? What did you think of mine?

Shall I kick Wakky-boy's arse for you, Mush?

laugh

Wakas

Wakas, firstly, we have to HAVE a rigorous methodology. Then we can start to apply it.

Erm, ok. Ergo, you dont have a rigorous methodology?

SarahY

just skimmed through some parts

I?m not sure how abstaining and fighting corruption in society correlate.

your interpretation of 'Rafathu' kinda seems odd.
?According to LL, rafathu has a root meaning of obscene behaviour, which fits better in this verse as well as 2/197.?
Explain Obscene behaviour? It's ok? It?s not sex? But obscene behaviour? You lost me.

'Permitted for you' doesn't seem to mean the permission came from Allah. It seems the deviance of the people made the rafathu of nisa permissible. Allah describes this as a betrayal.

What is betrayal? Rafathu of nisa? rafthu to nisa is permissible in the night of siyam.

Anyone who has witnessed dawn and sunrise will know that there is no black thread nor white thread.
Is that fact?

we know sawm isn?t something new. 2183 it was written before us and is now written for us.

2184 it?s a certain number of days however it?s not explicit for how long. If you?re sick or on a journey then you?re to do it another time. Or if you can?t do it feed a poor person yet sawn is better.

Now a new concept is introduced

2185 If you witness the shahr Ramadan than you are to sawm it. And it explains again if sick or on a journey repeat the sawm a different time.

2186 calling onto god

I didn?t read all your analysis but did you interpret ?? from 2187?

justamuslim

Mushu,

I am still digesting your post. God only knows what He meant but here are some of my thoughts....

2/183 in this verse, God is telling the believers that siyyam is enjoined on them as it has been in the past and the reason being to attain righteousness. Now, going without food, drinks or sex will not necessarily lead to righteousness. So in this sense, your metaphorical understanding that siyyam referring to fighting corruption does makes sense in a way.

but here is where your understanding fails me which is in the next verse 2/184 if you are ill or travelling, or find it hard to abstain then feed the poor or do it on other days. if siyyam refers to abstaining from corruption or fighting corruption, then this verse doesn't make sense.

My understanding based on 2/184 and 2/185 is that fasting is a personal thing with the purpose of attaining righteousness. It is about self improvement and betterment. By the way, fighting corruption in society may not lead to me becoming more righteous. I can bring down a corrupt government but yet go home get drunk and engage in lewd sexual acts.

Being righteous is the goal and siyyam is way of attaining it. In the eyes of God, the most honorable are those believers who are righteous. Over and over again, this is made clear in the Koran (refer to ayat 7/26). So, what is siyyam - just going without food, water, sex?

In verse 2/185. God says that he wishes ease and not hardship for us by prescribing fasting. It is hard to go without food and water all day. God knows as it is He who designed us and knows what happens if you go 8-12+ hours without water and food. in some can trigger migraine, hypoglycemic episodes, decrease in concentration, causing irritability, lethargy...one can seriously get sick from abstaining from water and food. In turn, this can lead to adverse affects.

In my mind, I don't think that fasting refers to abstaining from food, water from sunrise to sunset for 30 days. As there are parts of the world (greenland as an example where for 2-3 months, there is continuous sunlight) and so how can this verse be applicable if you are living in greenland? Remember God wishes ease, not hardship and the purpose of fasting is to attain righteousness.

Personally, fasting is not a big deal to me as God didn't make it a big deal like people have. It is something that God had prescribed to all believers - not just the muslims. Jews fast also. It is not a pillar of my faith. It is not something that makes me a "muslim".
I have done fasting the traditional way and have gotten really sick from doing so. Also going without food, water and then pigging out at iftar parties just isn't something that made me a better person or lead me to becoming more righteous. I do a "modified" fasting but not for 30 days straight. It is a spiritual time for quite reflection of the life that I have lead, being grateful that I am a muslim having Koran as my source of guidance, looking at the society, the world that we live in - I am grateful to not only have the Koran but the wisdom also. This month in particular, I am mindful of those who go hungry and children swifting through garbage for meals. anyhow, i have a lot of things to be grateful for.

When people ask me about fasting and why I don't fast, I refer them to the ayats in the Koran letting them know of what God says and what it is all about - attaining righteousness. God doesn't say that fasting is 'requirement' or that you will go to heaven if you go without food, water, sex from sunrise to sunset.

I am used to traditional muslims looking me down on me. The holier-than-thou attitude and hypocrisy used to bother me when I was young but now....when an obese person tells me how I am weak and lack self control, I just smile. If you 'fast' and then have sex outside of marriage, or watch pornography, or mistreat your wife....sorry but what is the point?

Anyhow, those are just my thoughts and understanding.

GODsubmitter

Beautiful and interesting posts. sun

I am grateful to you all who give us the opportunity to learn more and more, thanks to your sharing of your insights, thoughts, and opinions!

Peace
peace

simonejamilla