Hot/"ramadan" Answer

truthseeker171

Salaam Mohamad

but the time for haj is al ahilat and not the full moon.
to what that may mean ,al ahilat is commonly understood as the crecents.

You are right - the Koran informs us in verse 2197 that the -hajj- was within the time-frame of the four restricted full moons.
Verse 2189 states that the crescent moons or the several phases of the moon were to be used for the precise timing of the -hajj-.
From the Koran we can not know for certain that the timing of the -hajj- was related to the full moon - but being one of the phases of the moon, it might have been.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

mohamad_itani

this is a good assumptoin that it is a full moon.but we need further proof,numbers will not do.we need direct proof.or else a shahr will mean one month.
a woman suckle her child 30 shahr.it is impossible to just sucke him or her on just full moons.
in the quran 30 shahr is hawlayn kamilayn two years.
i think we must give up this idea of full moons.
you dont have proof.
"kutiba 3alaykum il siyam kama kutiba 3ala illazeena min kablikum"
the christains do fast for thirty days or more.something actually like fourty.
yet here we want to prove that it is three days full moon.
i totally disagree.
salam

unknownuser

The beginning of the full moon is the marker of the start of the fast - the end of the full moon is the marker of the last day of the fast.

Peace --

Summer solstice is June 21 2011 so let's apply to this year in Northern Hemisphere.

When do you expect to visually "witness" the full moon and "fast it" -- provide exact start and stop dates?

http//www.almanac.com/moon/calendar/DC/Washington/2011-07

The next full moon...

July 13 97%

July 14 100%

July 15 Full Moon 239 A.M.

July 16 98%

truthseeker171

Salaam Mohamad

this is a good assumptoin that it is a full moon.but we need further proof,numbers will not do.we need direct proof.or else a shahr will mean one month.
a woman suckle her child 30 shahr.it is impossible to just sucke him or her on just full moons.
in the quran 30 shahr is hawlayn kamilayn two years.
i think we must give up this idea of full moons.
you dont have proof.

As written before when more than one full moon is prescribed by the Koran - then the days in between should be included.
So the period of suckling could be as a standard 29 x 29.5 + 3 days (the last full moon included)

"kutiba 3alaykum il siyam kama kutiba 3ala illazeena min kablikum"
the christains do fast for thirty days or more.something actually like fourty.
yet here we want to prove that it is three days full moon.

Verse 2183 supports a duration of the fast of far less than 29/30 days.
In the jewish religion one communal day of abstention is prescribed -jawm kippur-.
This fast occurs one day a year and lasts only one total day - from the evening until the next evening.
The christian fast is a product of christian -ahadeeth-, the fast of 40 days is not found as a communal duty in the Torah or in the Gospel.
According to the Gospels (we can not know how reliable they are now) - Jesus had fasted 40 days, this was not prescribed for this followers in any known verse of the Gospel.

A fast of three days during -shahr ramadan- is more compatible with the fast as prescribed for the jewish people than a fast of 29/30 days.
Actually as far as we can know, Jesus was a follower of the jewish sharia as well, there is no proof or indication that the messenger Jesus had changed this element of the sharia into 40 days.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

truthseeker171

Summer solstice is June 21 2011 so let's apply to this year in Northern Hemisphere.
When do you expect to visually "witness" the full moon and "fast it" -- provide exact start and stop dates?
http//www.almanac.com/moon/calendar/DC/Washington/2011-07
The next full moon...
July 13 97%
July 14 100%
July 15 Full Moon 239 A.M.
July 16 98%

From this one can read that the fasting of -shahr ramadan- is at 14,15 and 16th of July in 2011.
There are in general three days with coverage of at least 98% - the fourth day normally one can see with the eye that the moon becomes 'smaller'.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

mohamad_itani

hello truth seeker,
if i to take what you are saying,it seems the clossest thing to the truth,but i am a speculator and i want to put the best possible out come ,and that takes time.
i think you are right for other things fall into place if one does what you say.
if we take the full moon to be shahr and we take that ramadan is the summer solice which is always in july by the way,it is strange that this is the only time that the moon get an eclipse.
it is always on those days.so this is the natural phenomena was looking for.
see truth seeker i wanted something rigid from nature to aprove what you where saying.
and now i am to give in to what you are saying.ramadan is the full moon and it is in july.
now i have my proof too.the lunar eclipse meaning you will see the moon but with a red color because it s the eclipse and since now this is all clear.we need to know when is al ashhur al hurum.
do you have any thing that can help us find that.
i want to share with you the meaning of the word sujud which up till now has been hidden really.
let us look into ashhur hurum.i will share the meaning with you of sujud if you are intrested.
thank you and salam.

truthseeker171

Salaam Mohamad

if i to take what you are saying,it seems the clossest thing to the truth,but i am a speculator and i want to put the best possible out come ,and that takes time.
i think you are right for other things fall into place if one does what you say.
if we take the full moon to be shahr and we take that ramadan is the summer solice which is always in july by the way,it is strange that this is the only time that the moon get an eclipse.
it is always on those days.so this is the natural phenomena was looking for.
see truth seeker i wanted something rigid from nature to aprove what you where saying.
and now i am to give in to what you are saying.ramadan is the full moon and it is in july.
now i have my proof too.the lunar eclipse meaning you will see the moon but with a red color because it s the eclipse and since now this is all clear.we need to know when is al ashhur al hurum.
do you have any thing that can help us find that.
i want to share with you the meaning of the word sujud which up till now has been hidden really.
let us look into ashhur hurum.i will share the meaning with you of sujud if you are intrested.
thank you and salam.

The full moon after the summer-solstice is the most reddish moon on average - together with the highest temperature in Arabia, that gives the connection with the literal meaning of -ramadan- scorching heat.
The dates of the lunar-eclipse are rather divided over the year - I do not see the connection between -ramadan- and the lunar eclipse, also because an eclipse can be more times a year.

Until now I have not seen any compelling koranic evidence regarding the timing of the four restricted full moons.
One could assume that -shahr ramadan- is one of them - since it has to be a garanteed peacefull moment within the year to be able to rest and sleep (apart from the middle-prayer) during daytime.
But this subject is somewhat off topic - it could better be discussed on another thread - as is the subject of -soojood-

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

mohamad_itani

i think that ayman has s put it strait ,no need to look further it is a clear matter .ayman has explained it and it all fits.
ayman thank you brother i do agree with you .
hope that Allah Bless you .there can be no clearer explenation

ayman

Verse 2196 states that a 10 is complete because in this special case 3 and 7 have to be added.
There are more examples in the Koran that a combination of numbers is mentioned in a special way.
For instance
verse 2914 - 1000 minus 50
verse 1825 - 300 plus 9
Verse 2196 gives the total of the to be added numbers, the reason for this is unclear.

This is a false analogy. The god certainly knows that people can add and subtract. He says 1000-50 and doesn't give the result 950 and he says 300+9 and doesn't give the result as 309.

ONLY in the case of 3+7 he gives the total specifically described as a COMPLETE 10 to make it clear that 10 is the COMPLETE count of few/maadoodat.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Can you please explain how you understand 'maadoodat' is 3-10 brother? If the figure is not fixed specially in case of fasting then there is no problem in fasting any number of days between 3-10, because 2196 says that completion of 3+7 is 10, but does not clarify that the completion of maadoodat is 10.

The "hajj" is days maadoodat. The 10 days fast is for those whose family is present in the inviolable institution of obedience and thus will fast the whole maximum/complete maadoodat of 10 days while the 3 is for those whose family is not. This is clear from 2196. If you don't agree then why do you think the god mentioned the result 10 when everyone can count 3+7 and also why did he specifically describe the 10 as complete?

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Eid,

Using full moons is short 29 days unless using maximum ?
10 full moons (29.53059 x 9) = 266
20 full moons (29.53059 x 19) = 561
30 full moons (29.53059 x 29) = 856
266 + 561 = 827 (short 29 days)

It is not short. You are missing the period between the 10 and the 20. There is no baby I know of that is born and then waits for 29.5 after delivery before he is fed.

10 full moons (29.53059 x 10) = 295
20 full moons (29.53059 x 20) = 591
30 full moons (29.53059 x 30) = 886

This 295 days is false. Do you know anyone who was in the womb that long? I doubt it.

The normal human gestation period is around 266 days (see your 10 full moons above).

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

i think that ayman has s put it strait ,no need to look further it is a clear matter .ayman has explained it and it all fits.
ayman thank you brother i do agree with you .
hope that Allah Bless you .there can be no clearer explenation

Thank you brother Mohamad. May the god bless you and your family.

This is the book no doubt in it guidance for the forethoughtful

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

mmkhan

Salaam ayman,

The "hajj" is days maadoodat. The 10 days fast is for those whose family is present in the inviolable institution of obedience and thus will fast the whole maximum/complete maadoodat of 10 days while the 3 is for those whose family is not. This is clear from 2196. If you don't agree then why do you think the god mentioned the result 10 when everyone can count 3+7 and also why did he specifically describe the 10 as complete?

Let me breakdown what you wrote

The "hajj" is days maadoodat. Agreed
The 10 days fast is for those whose family is present in the inviolable institution of obedience and... Agreed on 10 days fast
...thus will fast the whole maximum/complete maadoodat of 10 days while the 3 is for those whose family is not. Problem for me here, I found you mixing both the above mentioned points together when actually they are two different things. One talks about the period of Hajj, and second is about fasting for 10 days ONLY for those who cannot bring offering .
This is clear from 2196. Yes only 10 days fasting is clear from 2196 without any mentioning of iddat.
If you don't agree then why do you think the god mentioned the result 10 when everyone can count 3+7 and also why did he specifically describe the 10 as complete? I agree that there must be some reason for that, but still I cannot relate it with ayyamam maadoodaat. I also agree with you that other numbers, such as 1000-50 and 300+9 does not show the complete result as in 2196, so there must be some reason.

May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His only path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

unknownuser

This 295 days is false. Do you know anyone who was in the womb that long? I doubt it.

The normal human gestation period is around 266 days (see your 10 full moons above).

Peace Ayman,

It comes up if using full moons. Example, if baby is conceived day after full moon?

As for your comments that the maximum would be 294 days, please see the following link

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy

"The expected date of delivery (EDD) is 40 weeks counting from the first day of the last menstrual period (LMP), and birth usually occurs between 37 (259 days) and 42 weeks (294 days)."

The great reading gives the same max as modern science.

On the other hand, if we take shahr to be a lunar month and not the event of the full-moon then per the simple algebra above your normal (not maximum) would be a fixed 10 lunar months or 294 days!

As I said, it is impossible to reconcile 2233 and 4615 if "shahr" meant lunar month and the only way to reconcile them is if "shahr" meant full-moon.

The point was there is no need to reconcile dissimilar terms

yur'i'na (&#1614 breastfeeding
filan (&#1575 separation

3114 and his separation (wafiluhu) < two years (mayni)

4615 and bearing of him and his separation (wafiluhu) thirty shahr

2233 And the mothers shall suckle/yur'i'na (&#1614 their children awlayni (&#1616 for who wishes to complete the suckling/al-raata (&#1614

And upon the father (on) him their provision and their clothing in fair manner. Not is burdened any soul only its capacity not made to suffer (the) mother because of her child and not (the) father be because of his child and on the heirs like that

So if they both desire separation/filan (&#1575 through mutual consent from both them and consultation so no blame on both of them

And if you want to ask other women to suckle/tastari your children so no blame on you when you pay what you give in a fair manner

And fear Allah and know that Allah of what you do All-Seer

mohamad_itani

seid you did not fully put that into scope.
yes the thirty shahr include the pregnancy period and the suckleing period.
wich is only about six month of pregnancy and tow years of suckleing.
i would say that the first few month of pregnancy the fetus is not devaloped to call it a fetus it is really only a fertelized egg.
only when their is extra weight that it is considered and that would be after three month of pregnancy and a fetus would start to devalope,check the ultra sound for a pregnant woman,trust me i have three kids and i see how the fetus devalope.
so it is thirty month of carrying.
salam.

ayman

Let me breakdown what you wrote

The "hajj" is days maadoodat. Agreed
The 10 days fast is for those whose family is present in the inviolable institution of obedience and... Agreed on 10 days fast
...thus will fast the whole maximum/complete maadoodat of 10 days while the 3 is for those whose family is not. Problem for me here, I found you mixing both the above mentioned points together when actually they are two different things. One talks about the period of Hajj, and second is about fasting for 10 days ONLY for those who cannot bring offering .

The period of "hajj" is not specifically 3 or 10. One can stay 2 or more than 3. We know that "maadodat" cannot be just any number and is more than 2 based on 2203. So the only question remaining is what is the max/complete of "maadoodat"?

This is clear from 2196. Yes only 10 days fasting is clear from 2196 without any mentioning of iddat.
If you don't agree then why do you think the god mentioned the result 10 when everyone can count 3+7 and also why did he specifically describe the 10 as complete? I agree that there must be some reason for that, but still I cannot relate it with ayyamam maadoodaat. I also agree with you that other numbers, such as 1000-50 and 300+9 does not show the complete result as in 2196, so there must be some reason.

The reason is to answer the question "what is the max/complete of maadoodat?" Simple.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

It comes up if using full moons. Example, if baby is conceived day after full moon?

It comes up as the MAX not as the NORMAL as in your calculation, which we know is not true.

Peace,

Ayman

truthseeker171

This is a false analogy. The god certainly knows that people can add and subtract. He says 1000-50 and doesn't give the result 950 and he says 300+9 and doesn't give the result as 309.

ONLY in the case of 3+7 he gives the total specifically described as a COMPLETE 10 to make it clear that 10 is the COMPLETE count of few/maadoodat.

verse 2914 - 1000 minus 50
verse 1825 - 300 plus 9
Verse 2196 - 3 plus 7 - a complete 10

The analogy between these verses is that numbers are put in a special way - and thereby the verses can let the reader wonder what the reason could be behind this.
The three verses have three different ways of presenting a count - that is clear, that does not make the analogy false.

Verse 2196 does not imply that a count until 10 can be called a -count ma'doodat- according to the Koran.
The word -ma'doodat- is not used in verse 2196.

Verse 2203 gives koranic evidence for a possible range of -ma'doodat- as a standard it is 3, it can be 2 or somewhat more.
The wording -to hurry/hasten- is connected to the number of days of staying at the -hajj- going from 3 to 2.
The wording -delays- refers to a stay of somewhat longer than 3 days.
The number 10 seems not to be in this range of -ma'doodat- an increase of the stay up to 230% of the standard duration of 3 days could hardly be called a reasonable delay. In the Koran no proof is found that the -hajj- lasted until 10 days.
Rather a maximum stay of 4 or 5 days seems to be implied.

Anyway there is no koranic proof beyond reasonable doubt that a -count ma'doodat- can be until 10.
There is no koranic proof that completing a -count ma'doodat- should only go until 10.
Considering the wording of verses 2196 and 2203 - one can conclude that they do not suggest a duration of the communal fast of 10 days in any way.

The wording of verses 2184, 2185 and 2203 refers rather to a duration of the communal fast of 3 days.
The following words seem to be clear, precise and binding

verse 2185 ... whoever witnessed the full moon shall fast it ...

The duration of the full moon as seen from earth's perspective is 3 days (at least 98% coverage).
The connection with the duration of the fast can be found confirmed by the usage of the wording -ma'doodat- in verses 2184 and 2203.

As said before
It would be particular to assume that our Creator gave the details of the time-frame of only special occasions of fasting for some special people and not for the general communal fast of -shahr ramadan-.

492 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of unvoluntary manslaughter and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
584 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of a certain wrong manner of divorce.
589 - a fast of three day in case of breaking a serious oath and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
2196 - a dual fast of 3 + 7 days for a special group of visitors of the -hajj-.

It seems to be particular to assume that for the communal fast of -shahr ramadan- the believers are not precisely instructed and that they should read in sources next to the Koran that a -count ma'doodat- has to be until 10 - since this general rule is not found in the Koran.

Verse 2185 seems to be complete and detailed in this matter - no assumptions needed.
... Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it ...
The ones who missed the communal fast, or one or two days of it, can fast other days and complete the relevant count - in this case that seems to be until three, the duration of a full moon.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

unknownuser

Peace --

verse 2914 - 1000 minus 50

sanat cannot be same as aman/year nor does it make sense for anyone to live 950 years.

Different topic although may add insight; believe an equation is given ...

4615 And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahran until when he reaches his strength and reaches forty sanatan

30 x 29.53059 days (lunar month) = 2.42556228 years = 40 sanat

2914 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanatin less fifty years

3/4 lunar month x 1000 = 60.639057 years ? 50 years = 10.639057 years

san

^^
Peace,

First, re living for 950 years, it's like saying, 'I've never met one who does it so it doesn't make sense.'

Second, your equation raises another question what kind of "strength" exactly that is being reached when your child reaches 2 1/2 years? I'm asking this because that's not even an age when you can leave your child to live by himself.

Third, IMO it's overly cryptic to say 1000 something minus 50 something to just say "ten (or eleven) years".