Hot/"ramadan" Answer

truthseeker171

Salaam Mohamad

if i to take what you are saying,it seems the clossest thing to the truth,but i am a speculator and i want to put the best possible out come ,and that takes time.
i think you are right for other things fall into place if one does what you say.
if we take the full moon to be shahr and we take that ramadan is the summer solice which is always in july by the way,it is strange that this is the only time that the moon get an eclipse.
it is always on those days.so this is the natural phenomena was looking for.
see truth seeker i wanted something rigid from nature to aprove what you where saying.
and now i am to give in to what you are saying.ramadan is the full moon and it is in july.
now i have my proof too.the lunar eclipse meaning you will see the moon but with a red color because it s the eclipse and since now this is all clear.we need to know when is al ashhur al hurum.
do you have any thing that can help us find that.
i want to share with you the meaning of the word sujud which up till now has been hidden really.
let us look into ashhur hurum.i will share the meaning with you of sujud if you are intrested.
thank you and salam.

The full moon after the summer-solstice is the most reddish moon on average - together with the highest temperature in Arabia, that gives the connection with the literal meaning of -ramadan- scorching heat.
The dates of the lunar-eclipse are rather divided over the year - I do not see the connection between -ramadan- and the lunar eclipse, also because an eclipse can be more times a year.

Until now I have not seen any compelling koranic evidence regarding the timing of the four restricted full moons.
One could assume that -shahr ramadan- is one of them - since it has to be a garanteed peacefull moment within the year to be able to rest and sleep (apart from the middle-prayer) during daytime.
But this subject is somewhat off topic - it could better be discussed on another thread - as is the subject of -soojood-

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

mohamad_itani

i think that ayman has s put it strait ,no need to look further it is a clear matter .ayman has explained it and it all fits.
ayman thank you brother i do agree with you .
hope that Allah Bless you .there can be no clearer explenation

ayman

Verse 2196 states that a 10 is complete because in this special case 3 and 7 have to be added.
There are more examples in the Koran that a combination of numbers is mentioned in a special way.
For instance
verse 2914 - 1000 minus 50
verse 1825 - 300 plus 9
Verse 2196 gives the total of the to be added numbers, the reason for this is unclear.

This is a false analogy. The god certainly knows that people can add and subtract. He says 1000-50 and doesn't give the result 950 and he says 300+9 and doesn't give the result as 309.

ONLY in the case of 3+7 he gives the total specifically described as a COMPLETE 10 to make it clear that 10 is the COMPLETE count of few/maadoodat.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Can you please explain how you understand 'maadoodat' is 3-10 brother? If the figure is not fixed specially in case of fasting then there is no problem in fasting any number of days between 3-10, because 2196 says that completion of 3+7 is 10, but does not clarify that the completion of maadoodat is 10.

The "hajj" is days maadoodat. The 10 days fast is for those whose family is present in the inviolable institution of obedience and thus will fast the whole maximum/complete maadoodat of 10 days while the 3 is for those whose family is not. This is clear from 2196. If you don't agree then why do you think the god mentioned the result 10 when everyone can count 3+7 and also why did he specifically describe the 10 as complete?

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Eid,

Using full moons is short 29 days unless using maximum ?
10 full moons (29.53059 x 9) = 266
20 full moons (29.53059 x 19) = 561
30 full moons (29.53059 x 29) = 856
266 + 561 = 827 (short 29 days)

It is not short. You are missing the period between the 10 and the 20. There is no baby I know of that is born and then waits for 29.5 after delivery before he is fed.

10 full moons (29.53059 x 10) = 295
20 full moons (29.53059 x 20) = 591
30 full moons (29.53059 x 30) = 886

This 295 days is false. Do you know anyone who was in the womb that long? I doubt it.

The normal human gestation period is around 266 days (see your 10 full moons above).

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

i think that ayman has s put it strait ,no need to look further it is a clear matter .ayman has explained it and it all fits.
ayman thank you brother i do agree with you .
hope that Allah Bless you .there can be no clearer explenation

Thank you brother Mohamad. May the god bless you and your family.

This is the book no doubt in it guidance for the forethoughtful

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

mmkhan

Salaam ayman,

The "hajj" is days maadoodat. The 10 days fast is for those whose family is present in the inviolable institution of obedience and thus will fast the whole maximum/complete maadoodat of 10 days while the 3 is for those whose family is not. This is clear from 2196. If you don't agree then why do you think the god mentioned the result 10 when everyone can count 3+7 and also why did he specifically describe the 10 as complete?

Let me breakdown what you wrote

The "hajj" is days maadoodat. Agreed
The 10 days fast is for those whose family is present in the inviolable institution of obedience and... Agreed on 10 days fast
...thus will fast the whole maximum/complete maadoodat of 10 days while the 3 is for those whose family is not. Problem for me here, I found you mixing both the above mentioned points together when actually they are two different things. One talks about the period of Hajj, and second is about fasting for 10 days ONLY for those who cannot bring offering .
This is clear from 2196. Yes only 10 days fasting is clear from 2196 without any mentioning of iddat.
If you don't agree then why do you think the god mentioned the result 10 when everyone can count 3+7 and also why did he specifically describe the 10 as complete? I agree that there must be some reason for that, but still I cannot relate it with ayyamam maadoodaat. I also agree with you that other numbers, such as 1000-50 and 300+9 does not show the complete result as in 2196, so there must be some reason.

May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His only path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

unknownuser

This 295 days is false. Do you know anyone who was in the womb that long? I doubt it.

The normal human gestation period is around 266 days (see your 10 full moons above).

Peace Ayman,

It comes up if using full moons. Example, if baby is conceived day after full moon?

As for your comments that the maximum would be 294 days, please see the following link

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy

"The expected date of delivery (EDD) is 40 weeks counting from the first day of the last menstrual period (LMP), and birth usually occurs between 37 (259 days) and 42 weeks (294 days)."

The great reading gives the same max as modern science.

On the other hand, if we take shahr to be a lunar month and not the event of the full-moon then per the simple algebra above your normal (not maximum) would be a fixed 10 lunar months or 294 days!

As I said, it is impossible to reconcile 2233 and 4615 if "shahr" meant lunar month and the only way to reconcile them is if "shahr" meant full-moon.

The point was there is no need to reconcile dissimilar terms

yur'i'na (&#1614 breastfeeding
filan (&#1575 separation

3114 and his separation (wafiluhu) < two years (mayni)

4615 and bearing of him and his separation (wafiluhu) thirty shahr

2233 And the mothers shall suckle/yur'i'na (&#1614 their children awlayni (&#1616 for who wishes to complete the suckling/al-raata (&#1614

And upon the father (on) him their provision and their clothing in fair manner. Not is burdened any soul only its capacity not made to suffer (the) mother because of her child and not (the) father be because of his child and on the heirs like that

So if they both desire separation/filan (&#1575 through mutual consent from both them and consultation so no blame on both of them

And if you want to ask other women to suckle/tastari your children so no blame on you when you pay what you give in a fair manner

And fear Allah and know that Allah of what you do All-Seer

mohamad_itani

seid you did not fully put that into scope.
yes the thirty shahr include the pregnancy period and the suckleing period.
wich is only about six month of pregnancy and tow years of suckleing.
i would say that the first few month of pregnancy the fetus is not devaloped to call it a fetus it is really only a fertelized egg.
only when their is extra weight that it is considered and that would be after three month of pregnancy and a fetus would start to devalope,check the ultra sound for a pregnant woman,trust me i have three kids and i see how the fetus devalope.
so it is thirty month of carrying.
salam.

ayman

Let me breakdown what you wrote

The "hajj" is days maadoodat. Agreed
The 10 days fast is for those whose family is present in the inviolable institution of obedience and... Agreed on 10 days fast
...thus will fast the whole maximum/complete maadoodat of 10 days while the 3 is for those whose family is not. Problem for me here, I found you mixing both the above mentioned points together when actually they are two different things. One talks about the period of Hajj, and second is about fasting for 10 days ONLY for those who cannot bring offering .

The period of "hajj" is not specifically 3 or 10. One can stay 2 or more than 3. We know that "maadodat" cannot be just any number and is more than 2 based on 2203. So the only question remaining is what is the max/complete of "maadoodat"?

This is clear from 2196. Yes only 10 days fasting is clear from 2196 without any mentioning of iddat.
If you don't agree then why do you think the god mentioned the result 10 when everyone can count 3+7 and also why did he specifically describe the 10 as complete? I agree that there must be some reason for that, but still I cannot relate it with ayyamam maadoodaat. I also agree with you that other numbers, such as 1000-50 and 300+9 does not show the complete result as in 2196, so there must be some reason.

The reason is to answer the question "what is the max/complete of maadoodat?" Simple.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

It comes up if using full moons. Example, if baby is conceived day after full moon?

It comes up as the MAX not as the NORMAL as in your calculation, which we know is not true.

Peace,

Ayman

truthseeker171

This is a false analogy. The god certainly knows that people can add and subtract. He says 1000-50 and doesn't give the result 950 and he says 300+9 and doesn't give the result as 309.

ONLY in the case of 3+7 he gives the total specifically described as a COMPLETE 10 to make it clear that 10 is the COMPLETE count of few/maadoodat.

verse 2914 - 1000 minus 50
verse 1825 - 300 plus 9
Verse 2196 - 3 plus 7 - a complete 10

The analogy between these verses is that numbers are put in a special way - and thereby the verses can let the reader wonder what the reason could be behind this.
The three verses have three different ways of presenting a count - that is clear, that does not make the analogy false.

Verse 2196 does not imply that a count until 10 can be called a -count ma'doodat- according to the Koran.
The word -ma'doodat- is not used in verse 2196.

Verse 2203 gives koranic evidence for a possible range of -ma'doodat- as a standard it is 3, it can be 2 or somewhat more.
The wording -to hurry/hasten- is connected to the number of days of staying at the -hajj- going from 3 to 2.
The wording -delays- refers to a stay of somewhat longer than 3 days.
The number 10 seems not to be in this range of -ma'doodat- an increase of the stay up to 230% of the standard duration of 3 days could hardly be called a reasonable delay. In the Koran no proof is found that the -hajj- lasted until 10 days.
Rather a maximum stay of 4 or 5 days seems to be implied.

Anyway there is no koranic proof beyond reasonable doubt that a -count ma'doodat- can be until 10.
There is no koranic proof that completing a -count ma'doodat- should only go until 10.
Considering the wording of verses 2196 and 2203 - one can conclude that they do not suggest a duration of the communal fast of 10 days in any way.

The wording of verses 2184, 2185 and 2203 refers rather to a duration of the communal fast of 3 days.
The following words seem to be clear, precise and binding

verse 2185 ... whoever witnessed the full moon shall fast it ...

The duration of the full moon as seen from earth's perspective is 3 days (at least 98% coverage).
The connection with the duration of the fast can be found confirmed by the usage of the wording -ma'doodat- in verses 2184 and 2203.

As said before
It would be particular to assume that our Creator gave the details of the time-frame of only special occasions of fasting for some special people and not for the general communal fast of -shahr ramadan-.

492 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of unvoluntary manslaughter and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
584 - a fast of two consecutive full moons in case of a certain wrong manner of divorce.
589 - a fast of three day in case of breaking a serious oath and one can not compensate in another prescribed way.
2196 - a dual fast of 3 + 7 days for a special group of visitors of the -hajj-.

It seems to be particular to assume that for the communal fast of -shahr ramadan- the believers are not precisely instructed and that they should read in sources next to the Koran that a -count ma'doodat- has to be until 10 - since this general rule is not found in the Koran.

Verse 2185 seems to be complete and detailed in this matter - no assumptions needed.
... Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it ...
The ones who missed the communal fast, or one or two days of it, can fast other days and complete the relevant count - in this case that seems to be until three, the duration of a full moon.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

unknownuser

Peace --

verse 2914 - 1000 minus 50

sanat cannot be same as aman/year nor does it make sense for anyone to live 950 years.

Different topic although may add insight; believe an equation is given ...

4615 And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahran until when he reaches his strength and reaches forty sanatan

30 x 29.53059 days (lunar month) = 2.42556228 years = 40 sanat

2914 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanatin less fifty years

3/4 lunar month x 1000 = 60.639057 years ? 50 years = 10.639057 years

san

^^
Peace,

First, re living for 950 years, it's like saying, 'I've never met one who does it so it doesn't make sense.'

Second, your equation raises another question what kind of "strength" exactly that is being reached when your child reaches 2 1/2 years? I'm asking this because that's not even an age when you can leave your child to live by himself.

Third, IMO it's overly cryptic to say 1000 something minus 50 something to just say "ten (or eleven) years".

unknownuser

^^
Peace,

First, re living for 950 years, it's like saying, 'I've never met one who does it so it doesn't make sense.'

Peace,

It's illogical, means all those people also lived 950 years and contradictory ...

296 if he could be granted life thousand sanatin

Second, your equation raises another question what kind of "strength" exactly that is being reached when your child reaches 2 1/2 years? I'm asking this because that's not even an age when you can leave your child to live by himself.

Perhaps used wrong word in English; look up all uses choose best meaning...

6152 ashuddahu his development
1222 ashuddahu his development
1734 ashuddahu his development
1882 ashuddahum their development
225 ashuddakum your development
2814 ashuddahu his development
4067 ashuddakum your development
4615 ashuddahu his development

Third, IMO it's overly cryptic to say 1000 something minus 50 something to just say "ten (or eleven) years".

It's not sanat - sanat; rather sanat - aman different terms, equation for calculation clearly given...

4615 30 shahr = 40 sanat

san

Peace,

It's illogical, means all those people also lived 950 years and contradictory ...

296 if he could be granted life thousand sanatin

No, not necessarily all those people. Reported in 2914 is just a "he" who remained among his people (say, a nation, collectively, i.e. generations of the same nation).

296 clearly speaks of a different person/people.

It may sound illogical for us who are not used to seeing people older than age 100. Though i still think that this is not something that is already set in stone, since we haven't figured out everything about our DNA and all the potentials we have.

Perhaps used wrong word in English; look up all uses choose best meaning...

6152 ashuddahu his development
1222 ashuddahu his development
1734 ashuddahu his development
1882 ashuddahum their development
225 ashuddakum your development
2814 ashuddahu his development
4067 ashuddakum your development
4615 ashuddahu his development

same question with another word here ("development" in place of "strength&quot...

It's not sanat - sanat; rather sanat - aman different terms, equation for calculation clearly given...

4615 30 shahr = 40 sanat

okay, i should've said 1000 something - 50 something else but you clearly missed my point about being 'overly cryptical'...

My point being, the term sanat might have been a common measurement unit (not necessarily same as "aman/year&quot, but what is the significance of 3/4 lunar month or ~22 days?

unknownuser

No, not necessarily all those people. Reported in 2914 is just a "he" who remained among his people (say, a nation, collectively, i.e. generations of the same nation).

296 clearly speaks of a different person/people.

It may sound illogical for us who are not used to seeing people older than age 100. Though i still think that this is not something that is already set in stone, since we haven't figured out everything about our DNA and all the potentials we have.

2324 so said the chiefs those who disbelieved from his people, "This is not except a man like you...

Would you consider someone living today yet born in 11th century the same as you;
perhaps he?d give insight on events 900+ years ago like crusaders capturing Jerusalem in 1099 CE?

Reminds me of those who believe in 6000 year old earth, yet trees are older...

World's Oldest Living Tree -- 9550 Years Old -- Discovered In Sweden
http//www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080416104320.htm

same question with another word here ("development" in place of "strength&quot...

ashuddahu pertains to different stages of growth and development...

46 and test the orphans until when they reach the age of marriage
so if you perceive in them sound judgment so deliver to them their wealth
1734 and not come near wealth the orphan apart from with what it's best until he reaches ashuddahu

You consider withholding orphan?s wealth and forbid marriage until they reached age 40?

okay, i should've said 1000 something - 50 something else but you clearly missed my point about being 'overly cryptical'...

My point being, the term sanat might have been a common measurement unit (not necessarily same as "aman/year&quot, but what is the significance of 3/4 lunar month or ~22 days?

is year...

2914 and verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanat less fifty man
3114 and his separation in mayni (two years)

sanat (harvest window perhaps)
(30 lunar months) / 40 = 22.1479425 days

296 if he could be granted life thousand sanat
((30 lunar months) / 40) x 1000 = 60.639057 years

526 "so indeed it forbidden to them forty sanat they will wander in the earth
((30 lunar months) / 40) x 40 = 2.42556228 years

2247 a day with your Lord like thousand sanat from what you reckon
((30 lunar months) / 40) x 1000 = 60.639057 years

2914 and verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanat except fifty man
(3/4) x lunar month x 1000 = 60.639057 years ? 50 years = 10.639057 years

325 in a day measure which is thousand sanat from what you reckon
((30 lunar months) / 40) x 1000 = 60.639057 years

4615 and bearing of him and his separation thirty shahr until when he reaches his development and reaches forty sanat
((30 lunar months) / 40) x 40 = 2.42556228 years

704 a day its measure fifty thousand sanat
((30 lunar months) / 40) x 50,000 = 3,031.95285 years

sinna is seasons/harvests perhaps ?

1247 He said, "You will sow seven sinna as usual, so what you reap so leave it in its ears only little from what you eat.

1712 ...and that you may know number al-sinna and the count. And everything We have explained it detailed

1825 And they remained in their cave three hundred sinna and add nine

san

2324 so said the chiefs those who disbelieved from his people, "This is not except a man like you...

Would you consider someone living today yet born in 11th century the same as you;
perhaps he?d give insight on events 900+ years ago like crusaders capturing Jerusalem in 1099 CE?

Yes, especially when our background (e.g. nationality) hasn't changed much in all those nine centuries. You're not comparing Noah's time with today's (and back to 11th century) Jerusalem are you?

And I don't know why you're referring to 2324, because in that case, even a prophet from six or nine thousand years ago is also "not except a man like you".

Please note that i haven't assigned any number to the 'variable'. At this point however, i will not discard the option of even "nine hundred and fifty years" just because it is not something that's happening in this time (and AQ doesn't suggest this either--it's a reference of the past, and likely, of a very special case).

Reminds me of those who believe in 6000 year old earth, yet trees are older...

World's Oldest Living Tree -- 9550 Years Old -- Discovered In Sweden
http//www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080416104320.htm

I don't get the relevance. I believe that humanity (with God-conscious potential) was started more than tens of thousands of years ago on earth.

ashuddahu pertains to different stages of growth and development...

46 and test the orphans until when they reach the age of marriage
so if you perceive in them sound judgment so deliver to them their wealth
1734 and not come near wealth the orphan apart from with what it's best until he reaches ashuddahu

You consider withholding orphan?s wealth and forbid marriage until they reached age 40?

Yes, I believe Ashuddahu is different for everyone, it's not a one-size-fits-all standard marked by certain amount of time, as you have suggested yourself. From 4615, I do not equalize "ashuddahu" with "40 sanat". I asked because of a little semantic problem with your equation/conversion of 4615.

You would not give all the orphans' wealth when they reached age two and a half year so they can manage it by themselves, would you? "Sound judgment" in that age would be the miraculous exception rather than the norm, i suppose we'll both agree on that (i.e. "sound judgment" will be reached past age 2 1/2).

Let's try to see it this way, using your translation and your conversion

4615 And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahran until when he reaches his development/maturity and reaches forty sanatan

Would it be logical for AQ to talk about human development in random fashion such as this

4615 And bearing of him and his separation 2.42556228 years until when he reaches his development/maturity (>2.42556228 years) and reaches 2.42556228 years

This is where the question came from.

sanat (harvest window perhaps)
(30 lunar months) / 40 = 22.1479425 days

Thank you but IMO you're just presenting your own conversion table. You're so called "equation" is where verification is most needed. Thanks however for showing that it could be somehow related with sinna. For now i will hold my opinion.

Peace,

IMHO

Peace --

sanat cannot be same as aman/year nor does it make sense for anyone to live 950 years.

Different topic although may add insight; believe an equation is given ...

4615 And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahran until when he reaches his strength and reaches forty sanatan

30 x 29.53059 days (lunar month) = 2.42556228 years = 40 sanat

2914 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanatin less fifty years

3/4 lunar month x 1000 = 60.639057 years ? 50 years = 10.639057 years

Salaam

This thread was becoming so repeatative that it was not worth contributing to it, until you started discussing Sanat and Aam as this is very important subject this may lead us to reccognising forbidden months too.
Why not start a new thread discussing the difference between these terms so others, who may have had enough of this thread and may not even bother to look at it twice, will miss out on this subject.
I always hmm Noah live for almost a century and how many generation he saw passed during his life time?
When referring to Noah's age we read Sanat and Aaman in that verse so yes I am inclind to follow your calculations so does that means he lived till 60+ OR was it after the storm that he lived for another 60 years?

Peace
BTW I only read this thread when I see any contribution form SEid
Simpls

truthseeker171

sanat cannot be same as aman/year nor does it make sense for anyone to live 950 years.

Different topic although may add insight; believe an equation is given ...

4615 And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahran until when he reaches his strength and reaches forty sanatan

30 x 29.53059 days (lunar month) = 2.42556228 years = 40 sanat

2914 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanatin less fifty years

3/4 lunar month x 1000 = 60.639057 years ? 50 years = 10.639057 years

Peace

2914 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand -sanatin- less fifty -<aamaan-.

Both the word -sana- as the word -<aam- seem to mean a year according to the Koran. Both words are seemingly interchangable
But it is noticable that sometimes the Koran uses the word -sana- in a negative context and the word -<aam- in a positive context.

7130 We then afflicted the people of Pharaoh with years of drought/-sineen-, a shortage in crops, so that they might take heed.
1247 He said, "You will plant regularly for seven years/-sineen-, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat."
1248 "Then after that will come seven ones severe in drought, which will consume all that you planted except for what you have stored."
1249 "Then after that will come a year/-<aam- in which the people will have abundant rain and which they will be able to produce once again."

Lane's dictionary states that the word -sana- can refer to a year of drought or barrenness.

This information could lead to following reading of verse 2914 - as is mentioned in Lane's as well.

And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand years of hardship -sanatin- less fifty good years -<aamaan-.-

In the Bible, Genesis 929 states And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years and he died.

The reading of the word -sana- as 22 days seems not to be supported by verse 4615.

"My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do righteousness that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted." -
These words are rather spoken by an adult person - not by a little child of about 2.4 years old.

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.