Is Jerusalem the Qibla?

[raginggaijin]

Peace Raging
The city of Petra seem to be a very good candidate for the city from which the Messenger got expelled from. Layth shares the same view as well.

Insha'Allah, this will show why I believe what I believe, and to support Petra as the city that expelled the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the believers.

Midian (madyana) in Quran Surah 785, 970, 1184, 1194-95, 2040, 2244, 2822-23
City (almadeenati) in Quran Surah 9101, 9120, 3360, 3620, 5911, 638
Ad and Thamud Surah 765-69, 773-78, 1580, 2748-52, 4621, 5350, 5419, 696-7, 897-8

"The dwellers in The Rock (alhijri) cried lies to the Envoys.
We brought them. Our signs, and they turned away from them.
They were hewing the mountains into houses, therein dwelling securely;
and the Cry seized them in the morning;
that they earned did not avail them." Surah 1580-84

Hegra
http//www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200704/images/new.pieces/ARM6-02-Nabataean_lg.jpg
http//www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200704/new.pieces.of.mada.in.salih.s.puzzle.htm
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mada%27in_Saleh
http//madainsaleh.net/madainsaleh.aspx
http//www.zubeyr-kureemun.com/SaudiArabia/MadainSaleh.htm

"And remember when He appointed you successors after Ad, and lodged you in the land, taking to yourselves castles of its plains, and hewing its mountains into houses. Remember God's bounties, and do not mischief in the earth, working corruption.'
Said the Council of those of his people who waxed proud to those that were abased, to those of them who believed, 'Do you know that Salih is an Envoy from his Lord?' They said, 'In the Message he has been sent with we are believers.'
Said the ones who waxed proud, 'As for us, we are unbelievers in the thing in which you believe.'
So they hamstrung the She-camel and turned in disdain from the commandment of their Lord, saying, 'O Salih, bring us that thou promisest us, if thou art an Envoy.'
So the earthquake seized them, and morning found them in their habitation fallen prostrate." Surah 774-78

"and Thamood, who hollowed the rocks in the valley (bialwadi )," Surah 899

?And Ad, and Thamood -- it has become clear to you from their dwelling-places; and satan decked out fair to them their works, and barred them from the way, though they saw clearly.? Surah 2938

?Is it not a guidance to them, how many generations We destroyed before them in whose dwelling-places they walk? Surely in that are signs for men possessing reason.? Surah 20128

?Is it not a guidance to them, how many generations We destroyed before them in whose dwelling-places they walk? Surely in that are signs; what, will they not hear?
Have they not seen how We drive the water to the dry land and bring forth crops therewith whereof their cattle and themselves eat? What, will they not see?? Surah 3226-27

?And warn mankind of the day when the chastisement comes on them, And those who did evil shall say, 'Our Lord, defer us to a near term, and we will answer Thy call, and follow the Messengers.' 'Ah, but did you not swear aforetime there should be no removing for you?
And you dwelt in the dwelling-places of those who wronged themselves, and it became clear to you how We did with them, and how We struck similitudes for you.? Surah 1444-45

As successors settled in the land, the lands of Midian had three Messengers Shuaib, Moses, and Muhammad (pbut).
Ancient Midian is near Sinai, near the Red Sea, and was part of Egypt during the time of Moses and Aaron (pbut).
The lands of Nabataen-Petra contained Midian, as well as Medina, Ad, Thamud, and the former location of Lot's people. There is controversy surrounding the location of Mount Sinai, so ignoring them and upholding the description given in the Quran we can find where the Prophet and the believers were exiled from.

"And We gave Moses the Book, after that We had destroyed the former generations, to be examples and a guidance and a mercy, that haply so they might remember.
Thou wast not upon the western side when We decreed to Moses the commandment, nor wast thou of those witnessing; but We raised up generations, and long their lives continued. Neither wast thou a dweller among the Midianites, reciting to them Our signs; but We were sending Messengers.
Thou wast not upon the side of the Mount when We called; but for a mercy from thy Lord, that thou mayest warn a people to whom no warner came before thee, and that haply they may remember.
Else, did an affliction visit them for that their own hands have forwarded then they might say, 'Our Lord, why didst Thou not send a Messenger to us that we might follow Thy signs and so be among the believers?'
Yet when the truth came to them from Ourselves, they said, 'Why has he not been given the like of that Moses was given?' But they, did they not disbelieve also in what Moses was given aforetime? They said, 'A pair of sorceries mutually supporting each other.' They said, 'We disbelieve both.'
Say 'Bring a Book from God that gives better guidance than these, and follow it, if you speak truly.'
Then if they do not answer thee, know that they are only following their caprices; and who is further astray than he who follows his caprice without guidance from God? Surely God guides not the people of the evildoers." Surah 2843-50

http//www.konkyo.org/images/exmap2.gif
http//www.go2petra.com/IMAGES/mapkingdom.gif
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http//www.netours.com/images/stories/jordan/jordan_desert/arabia_late_trade_600.jpg
http//www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-kadesh-barnea-petra-nabataean-trade-routes-50bc.jpg
http//www.amnh.org/ology/features/petra/images/map3_enlarge.jpg
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Egypt_1450_BC.svg
http//www.bible.ca/archeology/maps-bible-archeology-exodus-route-kadesh-barnea-thomas-kitchin-1794ad.jpg

"and God most surely helped you at Badr, when you were utterly abject. So fear God, and haply you Will be thankful." Surah 3123

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hala-%27l_Badr
http//maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=27.25%C2%B0%20N%2C%2037.235%C2%B0&cp=19&qe=MjcuMjWwIE4sIDM3LjIzNbAgRQ&qesig=EGsa6IMg1mDNxREJWBbqjA&pkc=AFgZ2tlnBGmD3Xw6voGM04MYMTbYDLr7a3MGYyLckvWE-r5dHqx8-5w7jL9WRvOOVI3RMUokPvR76J26UVpEZuSvvDAzXsFs3Q&safe=off&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1582&bih=735&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=il

"And to Midian their brother Shuaib; he said, 'O my people, serve God! You have no god other than He; there has now come to you a clear sign from your Lord. So fill up the measure and the balance, and diminish not the goods of the people; and do not corruption in the land, after it has been set right; that is better for you, if you are believers." Surah 785

"And when Our command came, We delivered Shuaib and those who believed with him by a mercy from Us, and the evildoers were seized by the Cry, and morning found them in their habitations fallen prostrate as if they had never dwelt there 'So away with Midian, even as Thamood was done away!'" Surah 1195

"when thy sister went out, saying, "Shall I point you to one to have charge of him?" So We returned thee to thy mother that she might rejoice, and not sorrow. Then thou slewest; a living soul, and We delivered thee out of grief, and We tried thee with many trials. Many years among the people of Midian thou didst sojourn, then camest hither, Moses, according to a decree." Surah 2040

"and the men of Midian; to Moses also they cried lies. And I respited the unbelievers, then I seized them; and how was My horror!" Surah 2240

The area known as Sinai was part of the Egyptian empire
http//www.iziko.org.za/sh/resources/egypt/images/map_e3_l.gif

Petra is the capital - mother city - of Nabatean Petra.

?This is a Book We have sent down, blessed and confirming that which was before it, and for thee to warn the Mother of Cities (omma alqura) and those about her; and those who believe in the world to come believe in it, and watch over their prayers.? Surah 692

?And so We have revealed to thee an Arabic Koran, that thou mayest warn the Mother of Cities (omma alqura) and those who dwell about it, and that thou mayest warn of the Day of Gathering, wherein is no doubt -- a party in Paradise, and a party in the Blaze.? Surah 427

But why do you think it is to Mecca and not Medina(mentioned as Yathrib in the Quran) to which the Messenger emigrated ?

According to the Quran, the Prophet and believers lived in Yathrib during their exile, as their homes were threatened by the disbelievers. The people of the city and the Arabs were tasked to follow Muhammad (pbuh) and the believers in their efforts against the disbelievers, but many were hypocrites and stayed behind.

?And some of the Bedouins (al-aAArabi) who dwell around you are hypocrites; and some of the people of the City (almadeenati) are grown bold in hypocrisy. Thou knowest them not; but We know them, and We shall chastise them twice, then they will be returned to a mighty chastisement.? Surah 9101

?It is not for the people of the City (almadeenati) and for the Bedouins (al-AAArabi) who dwell around them to stay behind Allah's Messenger, and to prefer their lives to his; that is because they are smitten neither by thirst, nor fatigue, nor emptiness in the way of Allah, neither tread they any tread enraging the unbelievers, nor gain any gain from any enemy, but a righteous deed is thereby written to their account; Allah leaves not to waste the wage of the good-doers.? Surah 9120

"And when a party of them said, 'O people of Yathrib, there is no abiding here for you, therefore return!' And a part of them Were asking leave of the Prophet, saying, 'Our houses are exposed'; yet they were not exposed; they desired only to flee." Surah 3313

"Were it a gain near at hand, and an easy journey, they would have followed thee; but the distance was too far for them. Still they will swear by God, 'Had we been able, we would have gone out with you,' so destroying their souls; and God knows that they are truly liars." Surah 942

"So, if God returns thee to a party of them and they ask leave of thee to go forth, say 'You shall not go forth with me ever, and you shall not fight with me any enemy. You were well-pleased to tarry the first time, so now tarry with those behind.'" Surah 983

I think the Prophet (pbut) and the believers settled in Mecca - along with other areas given to them by Allah - because the Quran describes where they settled.

?And He brought down those of the People of the Book who supported them from their fortresses and cast terror in their hearts; some you slew, some you made captive. And He bequeathed upon you their lands, their habitations, and their possessions, and a land you never trod. Allah is powerful over everything.? Surah 3326-27

"?They say, 'Should we follow the guidance with thee, we shall be snatched from our land.' Have We not established for them a sanctuary secure, to which are collected the fruits of everything, as a provision from Us? But most of them know not.? Surah 2857

The Prophet Muhammad and the believers were kept out of Mecca until Allah decreed they would enter it, and they did so without violence.

"It is He who restrained their hands from you, and your hands from them, within Mecca, after that He made you victors over them. God sees the things you do.
They are the ones who disbelieved, and barred you from the Holy Mosque and the offering, detained so as not to reach its place of sacrifice. If it had not been for certain men believers and certain women believers whom you knew not, lest you should trample them, and there befall you guilt unwittingly on their account (that God may admit into His mercy whom He will), had they been separated clearly, then We would have chastised the unbelievers among them with a painful chastisement.
When the unbelievers set in their hearts fierceness, the fierceness of pagandom, then God sent down His Shechina upon His Messenger and the believers, and fastened to them the word of godfearing to which they have better right and are worthy of; and God has' knowledge of everything.
God has indeed fulfilled the vision He vouchsafed to His Messenger truly 'You shall enter the Holy Mosque, if God wills, in security, your heads shaved, your hair cut short, not fearing.' He knew what you knew not, and appointed ere that a nigh victory." Surah 4824-26

These are my beliefs based off of study of the Quran.
Study the Quran diligently, and do not depend on my opinion. Ask Allah to guide you. He explains the Quran.

May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.

Peace.

[raginggaijin]

You are also giving me the strongest impression that if you had the chance that you would rewrite the Quran and replace the word 'Baaka' with 'Mecca' and also replace 'almasjidi al-aqsa ' mentioned in Sura 171 with the temple of Jerusalem.

You add slander to your burden of sins.
You do not know me, you do not know the unseen, and you are not possessor of knowledge as to what I would or would not do. You speak conjecture and you ascribe that I would tamper with the revelation of the Quran in the same manner the People of the Book tampered with their revelations. You speak a manifest calumny.

I seek refuge in Allah from the whispers of accursed satans. Surah 7200, 4056

"Those who dispute concerning the signs of God, without any authority come to them, in their breasts is only pride, that they shall never attain. So seek thou refuge in God; surely He is the All-hearing, the All-seeing." Surah 4056

Since you cannot speak to me without insult, insinuation, or invalidation, I see no reason to continue speaking to you.

Bring proof or keep silent. It's wiser.
Until then, this conversation is over.

I seek refuge in Allah from being among the ignorant. Surah 267

Peace.

[Jafar]

Let's reexamined by what does it mean by "Qibla"..

The common / general understanding is that "Qibla" is the 'direction to face for prayer'...
Which I believe is a fallacy / a mistake.
Given the earth has a round shape.. and let's assume that everyone should face Jerusalem or Mekka for prayer..
For somebody who is located in Hawaii.. both Jerusalem and Mekka will be more or less right under his/her feet, as thus to really face Jerusalem or Mekka he/she need to face down straight to the ground.

Any thoughts?

Salam / Peace

[KDC501]

You add slander to your burden of sins.

WOW! I didn?t know that having just an impression of someone was committing slander. I always thought that slander meant falsely accusing someone of something. Please tell me that English is not your native language or that you drank too much coffee today.

[raginggaijin]

WOW! I didn?t know that having just an impression of someone was committing slander. I always thought that slander meant falsely accusing someone of something. Please tell me that English is not your native language or that you drank too much coffee today.

Slander is a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report. Stating you believe I would change the Quran is a malicious statement; defaming my character as you see me as someone who would alter the Quran - an act the People of the Book are guilty of. There was nothing proper or in the nature of good-will in your statement. And here you quibble about your words seeking to defend your statement.
If you have no proof, as you yourself repeated it was an 'impression', why do you make the statement? Why do you utter that which is not true?

And yet you uphold the teachings of a man who removed two ayats from the Quran.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600295.msg279967#msg279967
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600295.msg279846#msg279846
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602492.msg279594#msg279594
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602492.msg279550#msg279550
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602492.msg279519#msg279519

I have been studying the submitters movement for a few years now. And I have come to the conclusion that Dr. Rashad Kahlifa was indeed a messenger of God.

Yet you ignore the proof that Rashad Khalifa is not a Messenger of Allah.

Rashad Khalifa claimed he was the Messenger of the Covenant, using Malachi 31 as proof. However, the Messenger of the Covenant is named in Malachi 45.
"See, I will send you the prophet ELIJAH before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes."
Elijah, known as Elias (pbuh), is spoken of in the Quran and the Bible. Peace and blessings on all the Prophets of Allah.
Surah 685, 37123-130, I Kings 1820-40
Rashad Khalifa is not Elias.
?And certainly We have made clear for men in this Quran every kind of description, but most men consent naught save denying.? Surah 1789

Followers of Rashad Khalifa ignore Surah 4142.
"Falsehood shall not come to it from before it nor from behind it; a revelation from the Wise, the Praised One." Surah 4142
Rashad denied hadith as guidance yet he turned to hadith to base his claim on corruption in the Quran. Our Creator clearly states no falsehood will ever enter the Quran, in the past or in the future, before it nor behind it.
Allah condemns hadiths Surah 7185, 12111, 316, 456, 5234, 6844, 7750

Yet you say

Now I know that some of the things that he did were contradictory of the Quran but one has to understand that he was still LEARNING the Quran.
At the time of his death some of the submitters in Masjid Tucson started to use his footnotes and appendices for guidance instead of continuing his research of the Quran which he never completed.

How can a Messenger still be learning the Quran if he was a Messenger of Allah?

Allah does not make mistakes, nor does He forget. Surah 482, 2052

If it comes from any other than Allah, you will find in it many discrepancies. There are many discrepancies in the teachings of Rashad Khalifa.

Rashad stated he was the Messiah the Jews were waiting for, and the Mahdi the Islamists were waiting for, but according to you he did NOT complete his work?

Proof of Rashad's claims of being the Messiah/Mahdi
http//www.quranalone.com/SP/57_1989_09.pdf
http//www.submission.org/millennium/mahdi.html

He made prophecy that did not come true
http//www.quranalone.com/SP/64_1990_03.pdf

He made prophecy of when the Day of Judgment comes. Page 691, Appendix 25 in 'Quran - The Final Testament' translated by Rashad Khalifa.
Only Allah has knowledge of the Hour. Surah 4361-66, 7227

The messenger spoken in 337 and 381 could have never been Muhammad since he took the SAME COVENANT as the other Messenger's.

Muhammad was the Messenger who was given the Quran to verify (musaddiqun) previous Books Surah 381, 4252, 548, 241, 289, 291, 2101, 303, 692

"And when (Wa-ith) God took (akhatha Allahu) Compact of the Prophets (meethaqa alnnabiyyeena) 'That I have given you of Book and Wisdom; then there shall come to you a Messenger verifying (musaddiqun) what is with you -- you shall believe in him and you shall help him; do you agree?' He said. 'And do you take My load on you on that condition?' They said, 'We do agree.' God said, 'Bear witness so, and I shall be with you among the witnesses.'" Surah 381

"Wa-ith akhatha Allahu meethaqa alnnabiyyeena lama ataytukum min kitabin wahikmatin thumma jaakum rasoolun musaddiqun lima maAAakum latu/minunna bihi walatansurunnahu qala aaqrartum waakhathtum AAala thalikum isree qaloo aqrarna qala faishhadoo waana maAAakum mina alshshahideena" Surah 381

This Compact - promise, agreement - is with those who inherited the Book, for the Messengers of Allah verified the Book that was with them.

"And when God took compact (meethaqa) with those who had been given the Book 'You shall make it clear unto the people, and not conceal it.' But they rejected it behind their backs and sold it for a small price -- how evil was that their selling!" Surah 3187

The Quran verifies previous Books.

"And We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, verifying (musaddiqan) the Book that was before it, and assuring it. So judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their caprices, to forsake the truth that has come to thee. To every one of you We have appointed a right way and an open road. If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but that He may try you in what has come to you. So be you forward in good works; unto God shall you return, all together; and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance." Surah 548

"This is a Book We have sent down, blessed and verifying (musaddiqu) that which was before it, and for thee to warn the Mother of Cities and those about her; and those who believe in the world to come believe in it, and watch over their prayers." Surah 692

"He has sent down upon thee the Book with the truth, verifying (musaddiqan) what was before it, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel." Surah 33

"When there has come to them a Messenger (rasoolun) from God verifying (musaddiqun) what was with them, a party of them that were given the Book reject the Book of God behind their backs, as though they knew not," Surah 2101

"And believe in that I have sent down, verifying (musaddiqan) that which is with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And sell not My signs for a little price; and fear you Me." Surah 241

Surah 337-8 speaks of the Covenant and Compacts taken by those sent the Messengers; an agreement Allah takes with all who submit their will to Him

"And remember God's blessing upon you, and His compact (wameethaqahu) which He made with you when you said, 'We have heard and we obey. And fear you God; surely God knows the thoughts in the breasts." Surah 57

"And when We took Compact (meethaqahum) of the Prophets, and from thee, and from Noah, and Abraham, Moses, and Isa, Mary's son; We took from them a solemn compact (meethaqan) that He might question the truthful concerning their truthfulness; and He has prepared for the unbelievers a painful chastisement." Surah 337-8

Covenant and Compact of the Book and Prophets Surah 227, 263, 283-84, 377, 381, 3187, 57, 512-14, 570, 6152, 7169, 1320, 1325, 1691, 1695, 1734, 1978, 3315, 3323, 4810, 578
Compact/agreement (meethaqan) 421, 490, 492, 856, 872, 1266, 1280

"And We took compact (meethaqa)with the Children of Israel, and We sent Messengers (rusulan) to them. Whensoever there came to them a Messenger (rasoolun) with that their souls had not desire for, some they cried lies to, and some they slew." Surah 570

"And there succeeded after them a succession who inherited the Book, taking the chance goods of this lower world, and saying, 'It will be forgiven us'; and if chance goods the like of them come to them, they will take them. Has not the compact of the Book (meethaqu alkitabi) been taken touching them, that they should say concerning God nothing but the truth? And they have studied what is in it; and the Last Abode is better for those who are godfearing. Do you not understand?" Surah 7169

"such as break the covenant of God after its solemn binding (meethaqihi), and such as cut what God has commanded should be joined, and such as do corruption in the land -- they shall be the losers." Surah 287

"And those who break the covenant of God after His compact (meethaqihi), and who snap what God has commanded to be joined, and who work corruption in the earth -- theirs shall be the curse, and theirs the Evil Abode." Surah 1325

"How is it with you, that you believe not in God seeing that the Messenger is calling you to believe in your Lord, and He has taken compact (meethaqakum) with you, if you are believers?" Surah 578

"God took compact (meethaqa)with the Children of Israel; and We raised up from among them twelve chieftains. And God said, 'I am with you. Surely, if you perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and believe in My Messengers and succour them, and lend to God a good loan, I will acquit you of your evil deeds, and I will admit you to gardens underneath which rivers flow. So whosoever of you thereafter disbelieves, surely he has gone astray from the right way. "
So for their breaking their compact (meethaqahum) We cursed them and made their hearts hard, they perverting words from their meanings; and they have forgotten a portion of that they were reminded of; and thou wilt never cease to light upon some act of treachery on their part, except a few of them. Yet pardon them, and forgive; surely God loves the good-doers.
And with those who say 'We are Christians' We took compact (meethaqahum); and they have forgotten a portion of that they were reminded of. So We have stirred up among them enmity and hatred, till the Day of Resurrection; and God will assuredly tell them of the things they wrought." Surah 513-14

"So, for their breaking the compact (meethaqahum), and disbelieving in the signs of God, and slaying the Prophets without right, and for their saying, 'Our hearts are uncircumcised' -- nay, but God sealed them for their unbelief, so they believe not, except a few --" Surah 4155

Allah is clear; those who write something and say it is from Allah, when it is not from Allah, are Zalimun (alththalimeena); wicked, unjust, evil doers. Surah 2174-176, 394, 693, 625
?Then whoever fabricates a lie against Allah after this, these it is that are the unjust.? Surah 394

If Allah can teach a white, Scot/Irish-American who was raised on a farm how to read the Arabic revelation to confirm (saddaqat) the Truth, and to rely on Him alone to explain the Quran, then no one has any excuse.

Allah is the best guidance, Allah explains Surah 373, 426, 487, 3923, 4144, 456. 5417,22,32,40, 5675-81, 7516-19, 7750, 1035, 73, 2779, 333, 1689

We are called upon to be witnesses of Al-Islam, giving the good news and warning of the Day of Judgement Surah 9122, 2278, 353-4, 3523, 361-4, 6114
But we are not Messengers.

Follow only what Allah revealed, the teachings of Muhammad, the Quran Surah 299, 73, 7157, 7203-204, 864, 332, 1736,1827-28, 159, 2848-49, 3529, 496, 5417,22,32,40, 8521-22, 961, 981-8
?O Prophet! Allah is sufficient for you and such of the believers as follow you." Surah 864

Study the Quran diligently, and be not dependent on my opinion. Only Allah is Guide, Friend to the believers.
Men of understanding Surah 2121, 37, 3918, 2179, 2197, 2269, 313, 3190, 5100, 12111, 1319, 1452, 1676, 2054, 20128, 2935, 3022, 3528, 3829, 3843, 399, 4054, 5120, 5913, 6510, 895

"Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed and we follow the apostle, so write us down with those who bear witness." Surah 353

Pray for guidance.
Seek assistance through patience and prayer Surah 245, 2153, 2186

If you have something of substance to share, or proof to support your beliefs, please bring them forth. I weary of the veiled insults and insinuations. Let us speak good words to each other, or not speak at all. )

Peace.

[Layth]

Salam Warner,

Sorry for my late reply.

If I read your post correctly, you and I are in agreement on the meaning of "Qibla".

[warner]

Peace Raging

Correct me if I am wrong, I just got this impression that you avoided identifying the two structures (as mentioned by you) Masjid ul Haram and Masjid ul Aqsa and their respective locations.

Also while you kept on insisting it is to Mecca the Messenger migrated from Petra/Midian, once I brought up Medina/Yathrib above, you have changed your position to say that the Messenger settled in Yathrib also.

It will be great if you could offer relevant reasoning along with the verses you may sight since just mentioning the verses alone does not offer answer to the issue at discussion.

[raginggaijin]

Peace Raging

Correct me if I am wrong, I just got this impression that you avoided identifying the two structures (as mentioned by you) Masjid ul Haram and Masjid ul Aqsa and their respective locations.

You are wrong; don't go by impressions. Go by what is stated.
I have given numerous proofs that show where I believe Masjid Al-Haram and Masjid Al-Aqsa are located. Have you read everything I have posted and/or watched the videos I made?
I cannot believe you are asking this question when I state clearly I believe Masjid Al-Haram is in Mecca and Masjid Al-Aqsa is in Jerusalem, repeatedly.

Also while you kept on insisting it is to Mecca the Messenger migrated from Petra/Midian, once I brought up Medina/Yathrib above, you have changed your position to say that the Messenger settled in Yathrib also.

Go back and re-read. The Prophet (pbuh) and the believers settled in Mecca, after the conflict with the believers.
Mecca is not the place where the Prophet and the believers were exiled from.
Where would the Prophet and believers go while warring against the People of the Book and the hypocrites?
Where would the Prophet and believers live in between entering Masjid Al-Haram and their exile from Petra?
Where did they settle is where they ended up staying. Where did they finally settle?

It will be great if you could offer relevant reasoning along with the verses you may sight since just mentioning the verses alone does not offer answer to the issue at discussion.

What more reason than the proofs given in the Quran? Do you want me to explain the Quran to you, or is it unclear why I believe what I believe.

You asked about Yathrib, I answered. Again, leave impressions behind and go by what is said.

I'm not a guide, nor am I a guardian. I am only showing why I believe what I believe, based on the Quran. You are more than welcome not to believe as I do. I will not be asked what you do.
Study the Quran diligently and do not depend on my opinion. Allah is Guide, Friend to the believers.

Peace.

[warner]

Peace Raging

I knew for years the Messenger did not get expelled from Mecca, since he never lived there anyway.

I believe Masjid Al-Haram is in Mecca and Masjid Al-Aqsa is in Jerusalem, repeatedly.

What is your explanation of verse 171 ? The structure known as Masjid ul Aqsa in Jerusalem today, was built few decades after the Messenger.
Is Al masjidul Haram the outer walls and minaret around the black cubic structure in Mecca ?

Why do you keep quoting 2857 to highlight "secure sanctuary" ? What is the secure sanctuary ?

Are you saying the Messenger after leaving Petra/ Midian lived in Yathrib , fought a war or two there against the disbelievers, but since there was infighting between the believers in Yathrib, left to Mecca ?

Your base your hypothesis that "Mecca is not the city from which the Messneger got expelled from" based on the premise that Mecca did not get destroyed. IOW if Mecca expelled the Messenger it should have got destroyed.

Normally according to the Quran when a city expells a Messenger a calamity strikes that city and the disbelievers are punished. This fact alone is not sufficient to justify your above claim of Mecca, since,' if believers were living in that city among the disbelievers then God will not destroy that city.

[raginggaijin]

What is your explanation of verse 171 ? The structure known as Masjid ul Aqsa in Jerusalem today, was built few decades after the Messenger.

What is blessed in Surah 171?
Do you know what the word 'precincts' means? "A place or enclosure marked off by definite limits, such as walls."
The entire area that was once the Temple is Masjid Al-Aqsa.
In listening to men, you are led to believe the small structure that was refurbished after the destruction is Masjid Al-Aqsa.
The words are before your eyes, and you didn't see it, the clear description of what is blessed?
I seek refuge in Allah from being one of the ignorant. Surah 267

Is Al masjidul Haram the outer walls and minaret around the black cubic structure in Mecca ?

Masjid Al-Haram is the building that surrounds the Kaaba.
You do know the 'walls' are actually part of the building you can walk in, don't you?
Have you never researched into Masjid Al-Haram?

Why do you keep quoting 2857 to highlight "secure sanctuary" ? What is the secure sanctuary ?

I have stated this clearly in my previous posts Masjid Al-Haram.

"?Have they not seen that We have appointed a sanctuary secure, while all about them the people are snatched away? What, do they believe in vanity, and do they disbelieve in God's blessing?? Surah 2967

Do you believe in vanity and disbelieve in Allah's blessing?

"And some of them there are give ear to thee, till, when they go forth from thee, they say to those who have been given knowledge, 'What said he just now?' Those are they upon whose hearts God has set a seal, and they have followed their caprices." Surah 4716

You sure are asking me to repeat myself and explain myself quite a bit.

Are you saying the Messenger after leaving Petra/ Midian lived in Yathrib , fought a war or two there against the disbelievers, but since there was infighting between the believers in Yathrib, left to Mecca ?

I believe the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers fled Petra, lived in exile in Yathrib while they fought the disbelievers, and settled in Mecca where Masjid Al-Haram is located.

Your base your hypothesis that "Mecca is not the city from which the Messneger got expelled from" based on the premise that Mecca did not get destroyed. IOW if Mecca expelled the Messenger it should have got destroyed.

Normally according to the Quran when a city expells a Messenger a calamity strikes that city and the disbelievers are punished. This fact alone is not sufficient to justify your above claim of Mecca, since,' if believers were living in that city among the disbelievers then God will not destroy that city.

How do you reconcile Allah changing His Sunnah when He states clearly He NEVER changes His Sunnah? You even stated 'Normally according to the Quran' and yet seek to say Allah changed His Sunnah when Allah specifically states He NEVER changes NOR alters His Sunnah. Provide proof from the Quran to support your answer.

Allah does not change His Sunnah.

"Now; if the hypocrites do not give over, and those in whose hearts there is sickness and they that make commotion in the city (almadeenati), We shall assuredly urge thee against them and then they will be thy neighbours there only a little; cursed they shalt be, and wheresoever they are come upon they shall be seized and slaughtered all -- God's way (Sunnata Allahi) with those who passed away before; and thou shall find no changing the way of God (lisunnati Allahi). Surah 3360-62

"They have sworn by God the most earnest oaths that if a warner came to them, they would be more rightly guided than any one of the nations; but when a warner came to them, it increased them only in aversion, waxing proud in the land, and devising evil; but evil devising encompasses only those who do it; So do they expect anything but the way of the ancients (sunnata al-awwaleena)? And thou shalt never find any changing the way of God (lisunnati Allahi), and thou shalt never find any altering the way of God (lisunnati Allahi)." Surah 3542-43

Allah does not change His Sunnah. Period.
You have no proof, no authority, to say otherwise.

"God has struck a similitude a city that was secure, at rest, its provision coming to it easefully from every place, then it was unthankful for the blessings of God; so God let it taste the garment of hunger and of fear, for the things that they were working.
There came indeed to them a Messenger from amongst them, but they cried him lies; so they were seized by the chastisement while they were evildoers." Surah 16112-113

"How many a city We have destroyed that flourished in insolent ease! Those are their dwelling-places, undwelt in after them, except a little; Ourselves are the inheritors.
Yet thy Lord never destroyed the cities until He sent in their mother-city a Messenger, to recite Our signs unto them; and We never destroyed the cities, save that their inhabitants were evildoers." Surah 2858-59

"And when We desire to destroy a city, We command its men who live at ease, and they commit ungodliness therein, then the Word is realized against it, and We destroy it utterly." Surah 1716

"There is a ban upon any city that We have destroyed; they shall not return" Surah 2195

"Never a city We destroyed, but it had warners" Surah 26208

"Why was there never a city that believed, and its belief profited it? -- Except the people of Jonah; when they believed, We removed from them the chastisement of degradation in this present life, and We gave unto them enjoyment for a time." Surah 1098

You are more than welcome to believe Allah changed His Sunnah, when the Quran clearly states He never changes or alters His Sunnah. But I follow only what Allah revealed, and I cannot believe as you believe.
I won't be asked what you do. I am only responsible for myself.

How do you reconcile the destruction of the homes of the disbelievers, by the disbelievers themselves and the believers, then the entry to the Sacred Mosque with no violence occurring?

The town that expelled the Prophet (pbuh) was destroyed

?How many a city that was stronger in might than thy town which has expelled thee have We destroyed! And there was no helper for them.? Surah 4713
?Indeed they were near to startling thee from the land, to expel thee from it, and then they would have tarried after thee only a little ?? Surah 1776
?It is He who expelled from their habitations the unbelievers among the People of the Book at the first mustering. You did not think that they would go forth, and they thought that their fortresses would defend them against God; then God came upon them from whence they had not reckoned, and He cast terror into their hearts as they destroyed their houses with their own hands, and the hands of the believers; therefore take heed, you who have eyes!
Had God not prescribed dispersal for them, He would have chastised them in this world; and there awaits them in the world to come the chastisement of the Fire.
That is because they made a breach with God and His Messenger; and whosoever makes a breach with God, God is terrible in retribution.? Surah 592-4
?We already seized them with the chastisement, yet they abased not themselves to their Lord nor were they humble;? Surah 2376

There was no conflict within Mecca.
"If the unbelievers had fought you, they would have turned their backs, and then found neither protector nor helper; the way of God (Sunnata Allahi), as in the past before, and thou shalt never find any changing the way of God (lisunnati Allahi).
It is He who restrained their hands from you, and your hands from them, within Mecca, after that He made you victors over them. God sees the things you do.
They are the ones who disbelieved, and barred you from the Holy Mosque and the offering, detained so as not to reach its place of sacrifice. If it had not been for certain men believers and certain women believers whom you knew not, lest you should trample them, and there befall you guilt unwittingly on their account (that God may admit into His mercy whom He will), had they been separated clearly, then We would have chastised the unbelievers among them with a painful chastisement. " Surah 4822-25

You have spent two queries in asking questions, but offering nothing of your beliefs or proof of what you believe in return. I have no idea what you believe, because nothing you bring forth is supported in the Quran.

I am not a guide, nor am I a guardian to anyone. I am only responsible for myself. Do not expect to come to me seeking guidance and explanation, as I will point you to the Quran and tell you Read it. Only Allah is Guide, Friend to the believers.
If you cannot understand it, then that would be a severe warning sign to pay heed to.

Where is Masjid Al-Haram? Bring proof from the Quran to support your claim.
Where is Masjid Al-Aqsa? Bring proof from the Quran to support your claim.

If you cannot provide proof to support why you believe what you believe, take it as a warning You are following guardians beside Allah, you follow conjecture, and you are being led astray.

Allah is Guide. Allah explains. Turn to Him alone, pray to Him for guidance, and study the Quran daily.

If you intend on continuing to speak to me Bring your proof.
Explanation is not proof.

Peace.

[warner]

Peace Raging

So you believe the messenger went in a flying donkey from Mecca to Jerusalem ? since your migration analysis does not support 171 because it says masjid ul haram to masjid ul aqsa ?

You keep changing your position on Yathrib throughout these posts. I suggest you read the Quran and the relevant verses a few times before making your opinions without any susbstantive evidence.

You pop out verses without any context or relevance. How does the secure sanctuary mentioned in the verse prove it is "Mecca" and not any other city which is being referred to. The best candidate for secure sanctuary is still Petra, since the rule of Roman emperor Maurice, who established peace with the Persians, corresponds to the same time period in which the Messenger began his mission. (Also the 50 year old agreement between Justinian and Khosrau in 561-562 corresponds to this period although that agreement did not not last for many years) All this supports that the peace between the Romans and the Persians would have led to peace and trade in the region of Petra.

If there were believers living in Mecca , God wouldn't have destoryed Mecca due to that reason. That is one of God's sunnas as well. So your argument fails.

[raginggaijin]

So you believe the messenger went in a flying donkey from Mecca to Jerusalem ?

So now you resort to fabricating lies when you cannot refute the clear proofs from the Quran?
Give proof I said I believe that, if you speak truthfully.
When you cannot, then bear witness to the calumny you speak against me and the burden you add to your own soul. Why do you say that which is not true?

since your migration analysis does not support 171 it says masjid ul haram to masjid ul aqsa ?

You should have continued reading Surah 17.

"And when We said to thee, 'Surely thy Lord encompasses men,' and We made the vision that We showed thee and the tree cursed in the Koran to be only a trial for men; and We frighten them, but it only increases them in great insolence." Surah 1760

You pop out verses without any context or relevance.

So you believe. But I'm not you, nor am I responsible for you, so what I believe bears no relevance to you. I won't be asked what you did, and you won't be asked what I did.

How does the secure sanctuary prove it is Mecca which is being mentioned.

Show me another sanctuary where a provision is provided by Allah named Masjid Al-Haram.

""?Have they not seen that We have appointed a sanctuary secure, while all about them the people are snatched away? What, do they believe in vanity, and do they disbelieve in God's blessing?? Surah 2967
?They say, 'Should we follow the guidance with thee, we shall be snatched from our land.' Have We not established for them a sanctuary secure, to which are collected the fruits of everything, as a provision from Us? But most of them know not.? Surah 2857

We are to face Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque. Surah 2144, 2149, 2150. Allah tells us this three (3) times.
Allah tells us three (3) times "This is truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of the doubters." Surah 2144, 2147, 2149
I am not of the doubters.

The best candidate for secure sanctuary is still Petra since the rule of Roman emperor Maurice, who established peace with the Persians, corresponds to the time period of start of the mission of the Messenger. (Also the 51 year old agreement between Justinian and Khosrau in 561 corresponds to this period although that agreement broke down after few years.) All this supports that the peace between the Romans and the Persians would have made led to peace and trade in the region of Petra.

You are lacking knowledge of the Byzantine-Persian wars spoken of quite a bit in the Quran.

The Byzantine Empire was the predominantly Greek-speaking eastern part of the Roman Empire throughout Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages. Also known as the Eastern Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire was called simply Roman Empire or Romania by its inhabitants and neighbors.

The Byzantine Empire existed for more than a thousand years (from approximately 306 AD to 1453 AD). During its existence, the Empire remained one of the most powerful economic, cultural, and military forces in Europe, despite setbacks and territorial losses, especially during the Roman?Persian and Byzantine?Arab Wars.

?The Romans have been vanquished in the nearer part of the land; and, after their vanquishing, they shall be the victors in a few years. To Allah belongs the Command before and after, and on that day the believers shall rejoice in Allah's help; Allah helps whomsoever He will; and He is the All-mighty, the All-compassionate. The promise of Allah! Allah fails not His promise, but most men do not know it.? Surah 302-4

?Having expelled the Persians from Anatolia in 612, Heraclius launched a major counter-offensive in Syria in 613. He was decisively defeated outside Antioch by Shahrbaraz and Shahin and the Roman position collapsed.?

Known as Antioch in ancient times, Antakya is at the northern edge of the Dead Sea Rift and vulnerable to earthquakes.
This proves Surah 302-4 the actual translation is nearest, not lowest. Antioch has an elevation of 75 meters above sea level, while the Dead Sea is 423 meters below sea level.

Antioch is on the Dead Sea rift, but not in the Dead Sea.

?Hast thou not seen how thy Lord did with the Men of the Elephant?
Did He not make their guile to go astray?
And He loosed upon them birds in flights
hurling against them stones of baked clay
and He made them like green blades devoured.? Surah 1051-5

"During these years, Heraclius strove to rebuild his army, with the backing of Patriarch Sergius, to raise the necessary funds to continue the war. In 622, Heraclius left Constantinople, entrusting the city to Sergius and general Bonus as regents of his son. He assembled his forces in Asia Minor and, after conducting exercises to revive their morale, he launched a new counter-offensive, which took on the character of a holy war."

In the Caucasus he inflicted a defeat on an army led by a Persian-allied Arab chief, and then won a victory over the Persians under Shahrbaraz.

The Byzantines used a variety of weapons in combat, and are well known for their fighting in organized ranks.
The ballista was similar to a catapult. It flung large rocks over walls of a town. It was also fired by pulling back a strap.
The onager was a smaller version of the ballista. It flung medium-sized rocks in the same fashion of the ballista.
The catapult is probably the most famous. It had a spring which was coiled and released and caused the rock to fly through the air and inflict injuries to the enemy.
Note The stone flinging artillery used many types of ammunition. Flaming balls of pitch are one example. They were not limited to just rocks.

The Persians are known for the use of War Elephants in combat.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine-Sassanid_Wars
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman-Persian_Wars
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antakya
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_elephant

If you want to tell me the 'birds' are actual avian creatures and not descendants of the Greek-Roman bloodlines that go back to the Phoenicians, I want you to reread what you just accused me of at the beginning of your reply and ask who is truly following fairy tales.

Confront falsehood with Truth Surah 242, 666, 6150, 378, 88, 394, 1781, 2118
?And your people call it a lie and it is the very truth. Say I am not placed in charge of you.? Surah 666

If there were believers living in Mecca , God wouldnt have destoryed that due to that reason. That is one of Gods sunnas as well.

Proof is given the city that exiled the Prophet (pbuh) was destroyed, at the hands of the disbelievers and believers. You cannot refute the ayat given.
Proof is given the city that the Prophet (pbuh) settled in was entered without violence because of the believers who could not be differentiated from the disbelievers. You cannot refute the ayat given.

You cannot show me Masjid Al-Haram or Masjid Al-Aqsa, and you expect me to believe you without proof. I cannot do that.
I follow only what Allah revealed, the word of an honored Messenger The Quran.

If you believe I am misled, then continue to do so. I'm not here to guide anyone or explain the Quran. I am only showing why I believe what I believe, using proof from the Quran.

Since you have nothing else to offer, our conversation is done.

Peace.

[warner]

Peace Raging

What is blessed in Surah 171?
Do you know what the word 'precincts' means? "A place or enclosure marked off by definite limits, such as walls."
The entire area that was once the Temple is Masjid Al-Aqsa.
In listening to men, you are led to believe the small structure that was refurbished after the destruction is Masjid Al-Aqsa.
The words are before your eyes, and you didn't see it, the clear description of what is blessed?
I seek refuge in Allah from being one of the ignorant. Surah 267

Masjid Al-Haram is the building that surrounds the Kaaba.
You do know the 'walls' are actually part of the building you can walk in, don't you?
Have you never researched into Masjid Al-Haram?

I failed to respond to the above in my earlier post, since I missed this part . I was wondering the reason for the other members not responding to your posts. Now I am certain it is because you write so much nonsense. Above you just summarised how excellent you can be in that department.

First, in 171 the Quran does not say "precincts" in English but it says "hawla" in Arabic. This word is only used in the quran to mean around, surrounding, neighbourhood, environs and the use of this word in the Quran cannot be linked to walls and building like you falsely tried to imply.

Following list comprise the definitions of precincts from Amrican Heritage Dictionary,

a. A subdivision or district of a city or town under the jurisdiction of or patrolled by a specific unit of its police force.
b. The police station situated in and having jurisdiction over such a district.

2. An election district of a city or town.

a. A place or enclosure marked off by definite limits, such as walls. Often used in the plural the mysterious precincts of the old monastery.
b. A boundary Hunting is not allowed within the precincts of the estate.

4. precincts The neighborhood or surrounding area; the environs.

5. An area of thought or action; a province or domain.

You pluck one of the definitions of precints to suit your argument while definitions are available which is similar to the definition by usage in the Quran.

[Layth]

Salam warner,

Even if you assume, with difficulty, such a large army marched silently, if they met they would have been decimated by the powerful army of Pharaoh, not ambushed by it while they were praying. Only thing needed here would have been a watcher/sentry not a change in the direction of the salat and a change of focal point to the all too vague ?houses?. The awkward translation of the verse and the resultant forced meaning to arrive at the conclusion wanted is not credible at all.

I do no think the people of Moses were ever expected to fight...Rather, they were looking to "run" as soon as they sited signs of the army of Pharoah.

As for putting up sentries/scouts, I can say the same for 4102 - why split the force during Salat when sentries would have sufficed. Obviously the time of Salat is one of great vulrenability, when greater precautions are needed.

Muslims/ Arabs marched in to Jerusalem few years after the Messenger and at that time the revelation of the Quran has been completed. Even if we like it or not, most places and cities in and around Jerusalem had Hebrew names while the Quran was being revealed. And most locations continue to remain in the same Hebrew name to date. If the Quran wants to mention a place in the vicinity of Jerusalem it will have to mention by its Hebrew name and not by its Arabic name since Arabs have not conquered these lands and arabiscized these locations.

I disagree with this statement. Hebrew was not the language of the land, no were any cities/towns carrying Hebrew names. If anything, during the time of Mohammed the area of Jerusalem/Lebanon would have had a history of Roman or Arab names as a result of the area of influance both had in the region for millenia...As for the Isralites/Hebrews, you can find their influence and cities/towns to the south of Arabia where they resided for many centuries after the Exodus.

[raginggaijin]

I failed to respond to the above in my earlier post, since I missed this part . I was wondering the reason for the other members not responding to your posts. Now I am certain it is because you write so much nonsense. Above you just summarised how excellent you can be in that department.

'Peace' followed by Insult. Nifty.

First, in 171 the Quran does not say "precincts" in English or Arabic it says "hawla". This word is only used in the quran to mean around, surrounding, neighbourhood, environs and the use of this word in the Quran cannot be linked to walls and building like you falsely tried to imply.

There are numerous translations that disagree with you. However, substitute what you will, and it still fits.
The Temple environs comprise Masjid Al-Aqsa, not the small building.
The Temple surroundings comprise Masjid Al-Aqsa, not the small building.

Follwoing list comprise the definitions of precincts from Amrican Heritage Dictionary,

a. A subdivision or district of a city or town under the jurisdiction of or patrolled by a specific unit of its police force.
b. The police station situated in and having jurisdiction over such a district.
2. An election district of a city or town.
3.
a. A place or enclosure marked off by definite limits, such as walls. Often used in the plural the mysterious precincts of the old monastery.
b. A boundary Hunting is not allowed within the precincts of the estate.
4. precincts The neighborhood or surrounding area; the environs.
5. An area of thought or action; a province or domain.

You pluck one of the definitions of precints to suit your argument while other definitions are available which is similar to the definition by usage in the Quran.

And when we view Masjid Al-Aqsa from above, what do we see?

The whole area of the Temple, the boundary defined by the limiting structures that were once walls, comprises Masjid Al-Aqsa.

http//farm4.static.flickr.com/3490/3316055277_b7ba307d6c_o.jpg

To you are your deeds, to me are mine. On the Day of Judgment we will know who is rightly guided, and who was led astray.
Pray for guidance. Turn to Allah.

Peace.

[warner]

Peace Raging

You make me laugh.

Now 171 is a vision ?
So may I ask how did he travel in that vision ? I thought you said the Messenger just arraived in Masjid ul Haram from Petra via Yathrib, after a stint of few years there. Now why does he need a vision of a return journey ?

What provision are you talking about in Masjid ul Haram ? Petra was the center of the Nabatean trade routes and again the provision applies to the city than to Mecca.

You trying to lecture on Persians and Byzantines with your little knowledge picked out from wikipidia is a joke. Go read about Emperor Maurice and how he became the brother in law to the Persian Emperor and the resultant peace until the death of Maurice in 602 from the same wikipedia. Its all there.

[raginggaijin]

Now 171 is a vision ?
So may I ask how did he travel in that vision ? I thought you said the Messenger just arraived in Masjid ul Haram from Petra via Yathrib, after a stint of few years there. Now why does he need a vision of a return journey ?

Are you seriously asking how a person travels in a vision?

What provision are you talking about in Masjid ul Haram ? Petra was the center of the Nabatean trade routes and again the provision applies to the city than to Mecca.

Proof of this claim that it applies to Petra, not Mecca?
Explanation is not proof.

Allah repeats His Messages in the Quran for those who study.

"So We turn about the signs, that they may say, 'Thou hast studied'; and that We may make it clear to a people having knowledge." Surah 6105

?And when Abraham said, 'My Lord, make this a land secure, and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in God and the Last Day.' He said, 'And whoso disbelieves, to him I shall give enjoyment a little, then I shall compel him to the chastisement of the Fire -- how evil a homecoming!'? Surah 2126
?O believers, the idolaters are indeed unclean; so let them not come near the Holy Mosque after this year of theirs. If you fear poverty, God shall surely enrich you of His bounty, if He will; God is All-knowing; All-wise.? Surah 928
?They say, 'Should we follow the guidance with thee, we shall be snatched from our land.' Have We not established for them a sanctuary secure, to which are collected the fruits of everything, as a provision from Us? But most of them know not.? Surah 2857

I asked you to show me Masjid Al-Haram. You cannot. Why would I believe you when you cannot even provide an answer?
I asked you to show me Masjid Al-Aqsa. You cannot. Again, why would I believe you when you cannot provide proof to show why you believe what you believe?

You cannot answer except with anger and ridicule. And you expect me to believe you? Your very words manifest the hatred in your heart.

"Or did those in whose hearts is sickness think that God would not bring to light their rancour? Did We will, We would show them to thee, then thou wouldst know them by their mark; and thou shalt certainly know them in the twisting of their speech; and God knows your deeds." Surah 4729-30

Why would I believe a person whose description matches that of a disbeliever in the Quran?

You trying to lecture on Persians and Byzantines with your little knowledge picked out from wikipidia is a joke. Go read about Emperor Maurice and how he became the brother in law to the Persian Emperor and the resultant peace until the death of Maurice in 602 from the same wikipedia. Its all there.

Read a History book. I am providing proof that is easily verifiable with a click, and the references on the Wikipedia pages provide further resources for your research. What you choose to do with them is up to you.

You are welcome to believe whatever you desire.
Bear witness I submit my will to Allah. I am not of the doubters.
Masjid Al-Haram is my qiblah.

"So We have appointed to every Prophet an enemy -- satans of men and jinn, revealing tawdry speech to each other, all as a delusion; yet, had thy Lord willed, they would never have done it. So leave them to their forging," Surah 6112

Three times you spit insult and anger, yet bring no proof.
This conversation is over. )

I bid you 'Peace'.

[warner]

Peace Raging

You have a right to your opinion.

I am not angry. But I could not stop laughing about your attitude and the ability to come up with irrelevant verses. Just go back few posts and check who started being belligerent and started this ?I am perfect? attitude. We are all here to discuss and learn. We don?t have loyalty here to a group called free minds since such a group does not exist. If you come up with good reasoning with support from the Quran I am ready to listen and accept. Many here will do the same even after taking your argument apart and putting up a lengthy debate.

On the subject of Allahs sunna,

According to the Quran whenever a city or region was destroyed due to the wrong doing of its people God always saved the believers in those places. Whether it?s the people of Noah, Lot, Hud, Salih, Shohaib, Musa it has been the case.

6 47. Say "Think ye, if the punishment of Allah comes to you, whether suddenly or openly, will any be destroyed except those who do wrong?

5136 "But found in it only one house of Muslims"

2931 We are going to destroy the people of this city. Truly its inhabitants are wrongdoers

The following verse is ample proof that God intends no harm to the believers even at the hand of His Messenger.

4825 They are the ones who denied Revelation and hindered you from the Al Masjidul Haram and the sacrificial animals, detained from reaching their place of sacrifice. Had there not been believing men and believing women whom ye did not know that ye were trampling down and on whose account a crime would have accrued to you without (your) knowledge, (Allah would have allowed you to force your way, but He held back your hands) that He may admit to His Mercy whom He will. If they had been apart, We should certainly have punished the Unbelievers among them with a grievous Punishment.

With this verse your argument breaks down completely. According to you this verse is referring to Mecca(4824). When God did not want the believers in this city to be harmed by his human Messenger would He have destroyed them with his Malaika messengers ?

[raginggaijin]

Peace Raging
You have a right to your opinion.

We all do. )

I am not angry. But I could not stop laughing about your attitude and the ability to come up with irrelevant verses. Just go back few posts and check who started being belligerent and started this ?I am perfect? attitude. We are all here to discuss and learn. We don?t have loyalty here to a group called free minds since such a group does not exist. If you come up with good reasoning with support from the Quran I am ready to listen and accept. Many here will do the same even after taking your argument apart and putting up a lengthy debate.

Never have I said I am perfect. I have sinned and I am sure I will sin again, as every person's soul whispers evil. Your impression of me clouds your vision.
I only bring forth proofs to show why I believe what I believe. I cannot believe anyone on their word alone. If they bring proof, I look into it to confirm it. If it refutes what I know, I change. A believer says 'I hear and I obey'. Surah 57

On the subject of Allahs sunna,

According to the Quran whenever a city or region was destroyed due to the wrong doing of its people God always saved the believers in those places. Whether it?s the people of Noah, Lot, Hud, Salih, Shohaib, Musa it has been the case.
6 47. Say "Think ye, if the punishment of Allah comes to you, whether suddenly or openly, will any be destroyed except those who do wrong?
5136 "But found in it only one house of Muslims"
2931 We are going to destroy the people of this city. Truly its inhabitants are wrongdoers

The following verse is ample proof that God intends no harm to the believers even at the hand of His Messenger.

Allah delivers the believers before the destruction. Such is the sunnati Allahi. The believers were taken out of the cities being destroyed. Just as the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers were removed from the city before it was destroyed at the hands of the disbelievers and the believers. Proof is already given that the city the Prophet was exiled from was destroyed.

4825 They are the ones who denied Revelation and hindered you from the Al Masjidul Haram and the sacrificial animals, detained from reaching their place of sacrifice. Had there not been believing men and believing women whom ye did not know that ye were trampling down and on whose account a crime would have accrued to you without (your) knowledge, (Allah would have allowed you to force your way, but He held back your hands) that He may admit to His Mercy whom He will. If they had been apart, We should certainly have punished the Unbelievers among them with a grievous Punishment.

With this verse your argument breaks down completely. According to you this verse is referring to Mecca(4824). When God did not want the believers in this city to be harmed by his human Messenger would He have destroyed them with his Malaika messengers ?

You refute nothing because you ignore Surah 592-4.
?It is He who expelled from their habitations the unbelievers among the People of the Book at the first mustering. You did not think that they would go forth, and they thought that their fortresses would defend them against God; then God came upon them from whence they had not reckoned, and He cast terror into their hearts as they destroyed their houses with their own hands, and the hands of the believers; therefore take heed, you who have eyes!
Had God not prescribed dispersal for them, He would have chastised them in this world; and there awaits them in the world to come the chastisement of the Fire.
That is because they made a breach with God and His Messenger; and whosoever makes a breach with God, God is terrible in retribution.? Surah 592-4

You completely overlook what is in the ayat you choose to not quote for those who come behind to see.
"It is He who restrained their hands from you, and your hands from them, within Mecca, after that He made you victors over them. God sees the things you do." Surah 4824

The city the Prophet and believers were exiled from was destroyed.
The city the Prophet and believers settled in was entered without violence.

How do you reconcile the violence that destroyed the city in Surah 592-4, and the lack of violence in Surah 4824-25? Bring proof from the Quran to support why you believe what you believe.

You cannot show me Masjid Al-Haram, after asked numerous times.
You cannot show me Masjid Al-Aqsa, after asked numerous times.

I am not of the doubters.

I have restated this over and over again, but you choose to ignore it. Such are your choices.

Peace.

[warner]

Dear Raging

If Mecca was the city which accepted the Messenger with open arms and warmth why would 4825 mention about the Messenger fighting in that city but God holding the Messengers and believers hands back so as to save the believing men and women in that city ? In the light of this verse the lack of violence is senseless.

If this city accepted the Messenger peacefully as you say why does God mention about a grievous punishment to the disbelievers in the city?

Who hindered and prevented the Messenger and the believers and the sacrifices reaching the Al Masjidul Haram ?

Allah delivers the believers before the destruction. Such is the sunnati Allahi. The believers were taken out of the cities being destroyed. Just as the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers were removed from the city before it was destroyed at the hands of the disbelievers and the believers. Proof is already given that the city the Prophet was exiled from was destroyed.

Good you understand this. Now can you explain why the believing men and believing women in Mecca were not taken out by God but God says "...if they (the believers and disbelievers) had been apart we would have punished the disbelievers with a grievous punishment "(48.25).

You refute nothing because you ignore Surah 592-4.

It is He who expelled from their habitations the unbelievers among the People of the Book at the first mustering. You did not think that they would go forth, and they thought that their fortresses would defend them against God; then God came upon them from whence they had not reckoned, and He cast terror into their hearts as they destroyed their houses with their own hands, and the hands of the believers; therefore take heed, you who have eyes!
Had God not prescribed dispersal for them, He would have chastised them in this world; and there awaits them in the world to come the chastisement of the Fire.
That is because they made a breach with God and His Messenger; and whosoever makes a breach with God, God is terrible in retribution.? Surah 592-4

You completely overlook what is in the ayat you choose to not quote for those who come behind to see.
"It is He who restrained their hands from you, and your hands from them, within Mecca, after that He made you victors over them. God sees the things you do." Surah 4824

Raging, I pointed to 4824 in my post above .

592 -4 talks about disbelievers among the people of the Book. People of the book did not expel the Messenger from Petra. People of the book were not living in the vicinity of Petra during that time with the vengeance which was being unleashed on them by the Holy Roman Empire and the Christians. Due to this reason the people of the book moved from the vicinity of Levant to the areas around Yathrib.