Is Jerusalem the Qibla?
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What is your explanation of verse 171 ? The structure known as Masjid ul Aqsa in Jerusalem today, was built few decades after the Messenger.
What is blessed in Surah 171?
Do you know what the word 'precincts' means? "A place or enclosure marked off by definite limits, such as walls."
The entire area that was once the Temple is Masjid Al-Aqsa.
In listening to men, you are led to believe the small structure that was refurbished after the destruction is Masjid Al-Aqsa.
The words are before your eyes, and you didn't see it, the clear description of what is blessed?
I seek refuge in Allah from being one of the ignorant. Surah 267Is Al masjidul Haram the outer walls and minaret around the black cubic structure in Mecca ?
Masjid Al-Haram is the building that surrounds the Kaaba.
You do know the 'walls' are actually part of the building you can walk in, don't you?
Have you never researched into Masjid Al-Haram?Why do you keep quoting 2857 to highlight "secure sanctuary" ? What is the secure sanctuary ?
I have stated this clearly in my previous posts Masjid Al-Haram.
"?Have they not seen that We have appointed a sanctuary secure, while all about them the people are snatched away? What, do they believe in vanity, and do they disbelieve in God's blessing?? Surah 2967
Do you believe in vanity and disbelieve in Allah's blessing?
"And some of them there are give ear to thee, till, when they go forth from thee, they say to those who have been given knowledge, 'What said he just now?' Those are they upon whose hearts God has set a seal, and they have followed their caprices." Surah 4716
You sure are asking me to repeat myself and explain myself quite a bit.
Are you saying the Messenger after leaving Petra/ Midian lived in Yathrib , fought a war or two there against the disbelievers, but since there was infighting between the believers in Yathrib, left to Mecca ?
I believe the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers fled Petra, lived in exile in Yathrib while they fought the disbelievers, and settled in Mecca where Masjid Al-Haram is located.
Your base your hypothesis that "Mecca is not the city from which the Messneger got expelled from" based on the premise that Mecca did not get destroyed. IOW if Mecca expelled the Messenger it should have got destroyed.
Normally according to the Quran when a city expells a Messenger a calamity strikes that city and the disbelievers are punished. This fact alone is not sufficient to justify your above claim of Mecca, since,' if believers were living in that city among the disbelievers then God will not destroy that city.
How do you reconcile Allah changing His Sunnah when He states clearly He NEVER changes His Sunnah? You even stated 'Normally according to the Quran' and yet seek to say Allah changed His Sunnah when Allah specifically states He NEVER changes NOR alters His Sunnah. Provide proof from the Quran to support your answer.
Allah does not change His Sunnah.
"Now; if the hypocrites do not give over, and those in whose hearts there is sickness and they that make commotion in the city (almadeenati), We shall assuredly urge thee against them and then they will be thy neighbours there only a little; cursed they shalt be, and wheresoever they are come upon they shall be seized and slaughtered all -- God's way (Sunnata Allahi) with those who passed away before; and thou shall find no changing the way of God (lisunnati Allahi). Surah 3360-62
"They have sworn by God the most earnest oaths that if a warner came to them, they would be more rightly guided than any one of the nations; but when a warner came to them, it increased them only in aversion, waxing proud in the land, and devising evil; but evil devising encompasses only those who do it; So do they expect anything but the way of the ancients (sunnata al-awwaleena)? And thou shalt never find any changing the way of God (lisunnati Allahi), and thou shalt never find any altering the way of God (lisunnati Allahi)." Surah 3542-43
Allah does not change His Sunnah. Period.
You have no proof, no authority, to say otherwise."God has struck a similitude a city that was secure, at rest, its provision coming to it easefully from every place, then it was unthankful for the blessings of God; so God let it taste the garment of hunger and of fear, for the things that they were working.
There came indeed to them a Messenger from amongst them, but they cried him lies; so they were seized by the chastisement while they were evildoers." Surah 16112-113"How many a city We have destroyed that flourished in insolent ease! Those are their dwelling-places, undwelt in after them, except a little; Ourselves are the inheritors.
Yet thy Lord never destroyed the cities until He sent in their mother-city a Messenger, to recite Our signs unto them; and We never destroyed the cities, save that their inhabitants were evildoers." Surah 2858-59"And when We desire to destroy a city, We command its men who live at ease, and they commit ungodliness therein, then the Word is realized against it, and We destroy it utterly." Surah 1716
"There is a ban upon any city that We have destroyed; they shall not return" Surah 2195
"Never a city We destroyed, but it had warners" Surah 26208
"Why was there never a city that believed, and its belief profited it? -- Except the people of Jonah; when they believed, We removed from them the chastisement of degradation in this present life, and We gave unto them enjoyment for a time." Surah 1098
You are more than welcome to believe Allah changed His Sunnah, when the Quran clearly states He never changes or alters His Sunnah. But I follow only what Allah revealed, and I cannot believe as you believe.
I won't be asked what you do. I am only responsible for myself.How do you reconcile the destruction of the homes of the disbelievers, by the disbelievers themselves and the believers, then the entry to the Sacred Mosque with no violence occurring?
The town that expelled the Prophet (pbuh) was destroyed
?How many a city that was stronger in might than thy town which has expelled thee have We destroyed! And there was no helper for them.? Surah 4713
?Indeed they were near to startling thee from the land, to expel thee from it, and then they would have tarried after thee only a little ?? Surah 1776
?It is He who expelled from their habitations the unbelievers among the People of the Book at the first mustering. You did not think that they would go forth, and they thought that their fortresses would defend them against God; then God came upon them from whence they had not reckoned, and He cast terror into their hearts as they destroyed their houses with their own hands, and the hands of the believers; therefore take heed, you who have eyes!
Had God not prescribed dispersal for them, He would have chastised them in this world; and there awaits them in the world to come the chastisement of the Fire.
That is because they made a breach with God and His Messenger; and whosoever makes a breach with God, God is terrible in retribution.? Surah 592-4
?We already seized them with the chastisement, yet they abased not themselves to their Lord nor were they humble;? Surah 2376There was no conflict within Mecca.
"If the unbelievers had fought you, they would have turned their backs, and then found neither protector nor helper; the way of God (Sunnata Allahi), as in the past before, and thou shalt never find any changing the way of God (lisunnati Allahi).
It is He who restrained their hands from you, and your hands from them, within Mecca, after that He made you victors over them. God sees the things you do.
They are the ones who disbelieved, and barred you from the Holy Mosque and the offering, detained so as not to reach its place of sacrifice. If it had not been for certain men believers and certain women believers whom you knew not, lest you should trample them, and there befall you guilt unwittingly on their account (that God may admit into His mercy whom He will), had they been separated clearly, then We would have chastised the unbelievers among them with a painful chastisement. " Surah 4822-25You have spent two queries in asking questions, but offering nothing of your beliefs or proof of what you believe in return. I have no idea what you believe, because nothing you bring forth is supported in the Quran.
I am not a guide, nor am I a guardian to anyone. I am only responsible for myself. Do not expect to come to me seeking guidance and explanation, as I will point you to the Quran and tell you Read it. Only Allah is Guide, Friend to the believers.
If you cannot understand it, then that would be a severe warning sign to pay heed to.Where is Masjid Al-Haram? Bring proof from the Quran to support your claim.
Where is Masjid Al-Aqsa? Bring proof from the Quran to support your claim.If you cannot provide proof to support why you believe what you believe, take it as a warning You are following guardians beside Allah, you follow conjecture, and you are being led astray.
Allah is Guide. Allah explains. Turn to Him alone, pray to Him for guidance, and study the Quran daily.
If you intend on continuing to speak to me Bring your proof.
Explanation is not proof.Peace.
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Peace Raging
So you believe the messenger went in a flying donkey from Mecca to Jerusalem ? since your migration analysis does not support 171 because it says masjid ul haram to masjid ul aqsa ?
You keep changing your position on Yathrib throughout these posts. I suggest you read the Quran and the relevant verses a few times before making your opinions without any susbstantive evidence.
You pop out verses without any context or relevance. How does the secure sanctuary mentioned in the verse prove it is "Mecca" and not any other city which is being referred to. The best candidate for secure sanctuary is still Petra, since the rule of Roman emperor Maurice, who established peace with the Persians, corresponds to the same time period in which the Messenger began his mission. (Also the 50 year old agreement between Justinian and Khosrau in 561-562 corresponds to this period although that agreement did not not last for many years) All this supports that the peace between the Romans and the Persians would have led to peace and trade in the region of Petra.
If there were believers living in Mecca , God wouldn't have destoryed Mecca due to that reason. That is one of God's sunnas as well. So your argument fails.
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So you believe the messenger went in a flying donkey from Mecca to Jerusalem ?
So now you resort to fabricating lies when you cannot refute the clear proofs from the Quran?
Give proof I said I believe that, if you speak truthfully.
When you cannot, then bear witness to the calumny you speak against me and the burden you add to your own soul. Why do you say that which is not true?since your migration analysis does not support 171 it says masjid ul haram to masjid ul aqsa ?
You should have continued reading Surah 17.
"And when We said to thee, 'Surely thy Lord encompasses men,' and We made the vision that We showed thee and the tree cursed in the Koran to be only a trial for men; and We frighten them, but it only increases them in great insolence." Surah 1760
You pop out verses without any context or relevance.
So you believe. But I'm not you, nor am I responsible for you, so what I believe bears no relevance to you. I won't be asked what you did, and you won't be asked what I did.
How does the secure sanctuary prove it is Mecca which is being mentioned.
Show me another sanctuary where a provision is provided by Allah named Masjid Al-Haram.
""?Have they not seen that We have appointed a sanctuary secure, while all about them the people are snatched away? What, do they believe in vanity, and do they disbelieve in God's blessing?? Surah 2967
?They say, 'Should we follow the guidance with thee, we shall be snatched from our land.' Have We not established for them a sanctuary secure, to which are collected the fruits of everything, as a provision from Us? But most of them know not.? Surah 2857We are to face Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque. Surah 2144, 2149, 2150. Allah tells us this three (3) times.
Allah tells us three (3) times "This is truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of the doubters." Surah 2144, 2147, 2149
I am not of the doubters.The best candidate for secure sanctuary is still Petra since the rule of Roman emperor Maurice, who established peace with the Persians, corresponds to the time period of start of the mission of the Messenger. (Also the 51 year old agreement between Justinian and Khosrau in 561 corresponds to this period although that agreement broke down after few years.) All this supports that the peace between the Romans and the Persians would have made led to peace and trade in the region of Petra.
You are lacking knowledge of the Byzantine-Persian wars spoken of quite a bit in the Quran.
The Byzantine Empire was the predominantly Greek-speaking eastern part of the Roman Empire throughout Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages. Also known as the Eastern Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire was called simply Roman Empire or Romania by its inhabitants and neighbors.
The Byzantine Empire existed for more than a thousand years (from approximately 306 AD to 1453 AD). During its existence, the Empire remained one of the most powerful economic, cultural, and military forces in Europe, despite setbacks and territorial losses, especially during the Roman?Persian and Byzantine?Arab Wars.
?The Romans have been vanquished in the nearer part of the land; and, after their vanquishing, they shall be the victors in a few years. To Allah belongs the Command before and after, and on that day the believers shall rejoice in Allah's help; Allah helps whomsoever He will; and He is the All-mighty, the All-compassionate. The promise of Allah! Allah fails not His promise, but most men do not know it.? Surah 302-4
?Having expelled the Persians from Anatolia in 612, Heraclius launched a major counter-offensive in Syria in 613. He was decisively defeated outside Antioch by Shahrbaraz and Shahin and the Roman position collapsed.?
Known as Antioch in ancient times, Antakya is at the northern edge of the Dead Sea Rift and vulnerable to earthquakes.
This proves Surah 302-4 the actual translation is nearest, not lowest. Antioch has an elevation of 75 meters above sea level, while the Dead Sea is 423 meters below sea level.Antioch is on the Dead Sea rift, but not in the Dead Sea.
?Hast thou not seen how thy Lord did with the Men of the Elephant?
Did He not make their guile to go astray?
And He loosed upon them birds in flights
hurling against them stones of baked clay
and He made them like green blades devoured.? Surah 1051-5"During these years, Heraclius strove to rebuild his army, with the backing of Patriarch Sergius, to raise the necessary funds to continue the war. In 622, Heraclius left Constantinople, entrusting the city to Sergius and general Bonus as regents of his son. He assembled his forces in Asia Minor and, after conducting exercises to revive their morale, he launched a new counter-offensive, which took on the character of a holy war."
In the Caucasus he inflicted a defeat on an army led by a Persian-allied Arab chief, and then won a victory over the Persians under Shahrbaraz.
The Byzantines used a variety of weapons in combat, and are well known for their fighting in organized ranks.
The ballista was similar to a catapult. It flung large rocks over walls of a town. It was also fired by pulling back a strap.
The onager was a smaller version of the ballista. It flung medium-sized rocks in the same fashion of the ballista.
The catapult is probably the most famous. It had a spring which was coiled and released and caused the rock to fly through the air and inflict injuries to the enemy.
Note The stone flinging artillery used many types of ammunition. Flaming balls of pitch are one example. They were not limited to just rocks.The Persians are known for the use of War Elephants in combat.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine-Sassanid_Wars
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman-Persian_Wars
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antakya
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_elephantIf you want to tell me the 'birds' are actual avian creatures and not descendants of the Greek-Roman bloodlines that go back to the Phoenicians, I want you to reread what you just accused me of at the beginning of your reply and ask who is truly following fairy tales.
Confront falsehood with Truth Surah 242, 666, 6150, 378, 88, 394, 1781, 2118
?And your people call it a lie and it is the very truth. Say I am not placed in charge of you.? Surah 666If there were believers living in Mecca , God wouldnt have destoryed that due to that reason. That is one of Gods sunnas as well.
Proof is given the city that exiled the Prophet (pbuh) was destroyed, at the hands of the disbelievers and believers. You cannot refute the ayat given.
Proof is given the city that the Prophet (pbuh) settled in was entered without violence because of the believers who could not be differentiated from the disbelievers. You cannot refute the ayat given.You cannot show me Masjid Al-Haram or Masjid Al-Aqsa, and you expect me to believe you without proof. I cannot do that.
I follow only what Allah revealed, the word of an honored Messenger The Quran.If you believe I am misled, then continue to do so. I'm not here to guide anyone or explain the Quran. I am only showing why I believe what I believe, using proof from the Quran.
Since you have nothing else to offer, our conversation is done.
Peace.
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Peace Raging
What is blessed in Surah 171?
Do you know what the word 'precincts' means? "A place or enclosure marked off by definite limits, such as walls."
The entire area that was once the Temple is Masjid Al-Aqsa.
In listening to men, you are led to believe the small structure that was refurbished after the destruction is Masjid Al-Aqsa.
The words are before your eyes, and you didn't see it, the clear description of what is blessed?
I seek refuge in Allah from being one of the ignorant. Surah 267Masjid Al-Haram is the building that surrounds the Kaaba.
You do know the 'walls' are actually part of the building you can walk in, don't you?
Have you never researched into Masjid Al-Haram?I failed to respond to the above in my earlier post, since I missed this part . I was wondering the reason for the other members not responding to your posts. Now I am certain it is because you write so much nonsense. Above you just summarised how excellent you can be in that department.
First, in 171 the Quran does not say "precincts" in English but it says "hawla" in Arabic. This word is only used in the quran to mean around, surrounding, neighbourhood, environs and the use of this word in the Quran cannot be linked to walls and building like you falsely tried to imply.
Following list comprise the definitions of precincts from Amrican Heritage Dictionary,
a. A subdivision or district of a city or town under the jurisdiction of or patrolled by a specific unit of its police force.
b. The police station situated in and having jurisdiction over such a district.-
An election district of a city or town.
a. A place or enclosure marked off by definite limits, such as walls. Often used in the plural the mysterious precincts of the old monastery.
b. A boundary Hunting is not allowed within the precincts of the estate.-
precincts The neighborhood or surrounding area; the environs.
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An area of thought or action; a province or domain.
You pluck one of the definitions of precints to suit your argument while definitions are available which is similar to the definition by usage in the Quran.
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Salam warner,
Even if you assume, with difficulty, such a large army marched silently, if they met they would have been decimated by the powerful army of Pharaoh, not ambushed by it while they were praying. Only thing needed here would have been a watcher/sentry not a change in the direction of the salat and a change of focal point to the all too vague ?houses?. The awkward translation of the verse and the resultant forced meaning to arrive at the conclusion wanted is not credible at all.
I do no think the people of Moses were ever expected to fight...Rather, they were looking to "run" as soon as they sited signs of the army of Pharoah.
As for putting up sentries/scouts, I can say the same for 4102 - why split the force during Salat when sentries would have sufficed. Obviously the time of Salat is one of great vulrenability, when greater precautions are needed.
Muslims/ Arabs marched in to Jerusalem few years after the Messenger and at that time the revelation of the Quran has been completed. Even if we like it or not, most places and cities in and around Jerusalem had Hebrew names while the Quran was being revealed. And most locations continue to remain in the same Hebrew name to date. If the Quran wants to mention a place in the vicinity of Jerusalem it will have to mention by its Hebrew name and not by its Arabic name since Arabs have not conquered these lands and arabiscized these locations.
I disagree with this statement. Hebrew was not the language of the land, no were any cities/towns carrying Hebrew names. If anything, during the time of Mohammed the area of Jerusalem/Lebanon would have had a history of Roman or Arab names as a result of the area of influance both had in the region for millenia...As for the Isralites/Hebrews, you can find their influence and cities/towns to the south of Arabia where they resided for many centuries after the Exodus.
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I failed to respond to the above in my earlier post, since I missed this part . I was wondering the reason for the other members not responding to your posts. Now I am certain it is because you write so much nonsense. Above you just summarised how excellent you can be in that department.
'Peace' followed by Insult. Nifty.
First, in 171 the Quran does not say "precincts" in English or Arabic it says "hawla". This word is only used in the quran to mean around, surrounding, neighbourhood, environs and the use of this word in the Quran cannot be linked to walls and building like you falsely tried to imply.
There are numerous translations that disagree with you. However, substitute what you will, and it still fits.
The Temple environs comprise Masjid Al-Aqsa, not the small building.
The Temple surroundings comprise Masjid Al-Aqsa, not the small building.Follwoing list comprise the definitions of precincts from Amrican Heritage Dictionary,
a. A subdivision or district of a city or town under the jurisdiction of or patrolled by a specific unit of its police force.
b. The police station situated in and having jurisdiction over such a district.
2. An election district of a city or town.
3.
a. A place or enclosure marked off by definite limits, such as walls. Often used in the plural the mysterious precincts of the old monastery.
b. A boundary Hunting is not allowed within the precincts of the estate.
4. precincts The neighborhood or surrounding area; the environs.
5. An area of thought or action; a province or domain.You pluck one of the definitions of precints to suit your argument while other definitions are available which is similar to the definition by usage in the Quran.
And when we view Masjid Al-Aqsa from above, what do we see?
The whole area of the Temple, the boundary defined by the limiting structures that were once walls, comprises Masjid Al-Aqsa.
http//farm4.static.flickr.com/3490/3316055277_b7ba307d6c_o.jpg
To you are your deeds, to me are mine. On the Day of Judgment we will know who is rightly guided, and who was led astray.
Pray for guidance. Turn to Allah.Peace.
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Peace Raging
You make me laugh.
Now 171 is a vision ?
So may I ask how did he travel in that vision ? I thought you said the Messenger just arraived in Masjid ul Haram from Petra via Yathrib, after a stint of few years there. Now why does he need a vision of a return journey ?What provision are you talking about in Masjid ul Haram ? Petra was the center of the Nabatean trade routes and again the provision applies to the city than to Mecca.
You trying to lecture on Persians and Byzantines with your little knowledge picked out from wikipidia is a joke. Go read about Emperor Maurice and how he became the brother in law to the Persian Emperor and the resultant peace until the death of Maurice in 602 from the same wikipedia. Its all there.
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Now 171 is a vision ?
So may I ask how did he travel in that vision ? I thought you said the Messenger just arraived in Masjid ul Haram from Petra via Yathrib, after a stint of few years there. Now why does he need a vision of a return journey ?Are you seriously asking how a person travels in a vision?
What provision are you talking about in Masjid ul Haram ? Petra was the center of the Nabatean trade routes and again the provision applies to the city than to Mecca.
Proof of this claim that it applies to Petra, not Mecca?
Explanation is not proof.Allah repeats His Messages in the Quran for those who study.
"So We turn about the signs, that they may say, 'Thou hast studied'; and that We may make it clear to a people having knowledge." Surah 6105
?And when Abraham said, 'My Lord, make this a land secure, and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in God and the Last Day.' He said, 'And whoso disbelieves, to him I shall give enjoyment a little, then I shall compel him to the chastisement of the Fire -- how evil a homecoming!'? Surah 2126
?O believers, the idolaters are indeed unclean; so let them not come near the Holy Mosque after this year of theirs. If you fear poverty, God shall surely enrich you of His bounty, if He will; God is All-knowing; All-wise.? Surah 928
?They say, 'Should we follow the guidance with thee, we shall be snatched from our land.' Have We not established for them a sanctuary secure, to which are collected the fruits of everything, as a provision from Us? But most of them know not.? Surah 2857I asked you to show me Masjid Al-Haram. You cannot. Why would I believe you when you cannot even provide an answer?
I asked you to show me Masjid Al-Aqsa. You cannot. Again, why would I believe you when you cannot provide proof to show why you believe what you believe?You cannot answer except with anger and ridicule. And you expect me to believe you? Your very words manifest the hatred in your heart.
"Or did those in whose hearts is sickness think that God would not bring to light their rancour? Did We will, We would show them to thee, then thou wouldst know them by their mark; and thou shalt certainly know them in the twisting of their speech; and God knows your deeds." Surah 4729-30
Why would I believe a person whose description matches that of a disbeliever in the Quran?
You trying to lecture on Persians and Byzantines with your little knowledge picked out from wikipidia is a joke. Go read about Emperor Maurice and how he became the brother in law to the Persian Emperor and the resultant peace until the death of Maurice in 602 from the same wikipedia. Its all there.
Read a History book. I am providing proof that is easily verifiable with a click, and the references on the Wikipedia pages provide further resources for your research. What you choose to do with them is up to you.
You are welcome to believe whatever you desire.
Bear witness I submit my will to Allah. I am not of the doubters.
Masjid Al-Haram is my qiblah."So We have appointed to every Prophet an enemy -- satans of men and jinn, revealing tawdry speech to each other, all as a delusion; yet, had thy Lord willed, they would never have done it. So leave them to their forging," Surah 6112
Three times you spit insult and anger, yet bring no proof.
This conversation is over. )I bid you 'Peace'.
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Peace Raging
You have a right to your opinion.
I am not angry. But I could not stop laughing about your attitude and the ability to come up with irrelevant verses. Just go back few posts and check who started being belligerent and started this ?I am perfect? attitude. We are all here to discuss and learn. We don?t have loyalty here to a group called free minds since such a group does not exist. If you come up with good reasoning with support from the Quran I am ready to listen and accept. Many here will do the same even after taking your argument apart and putting up a lengthy debate.
On the subject of Allahs sunna,
According to the Quran whenever a city or region was destroyed due to the wrong doing of its people God always saved the believers in those places. Whether it?s the people of Noah, Lot, Hud, Salih, Shohaib, Musa it has been the case.
6 47. Say "Think ye, if the punishment of Allah comes to you, whether suddenly or openly, will any be destroyed except those who do wrong?
5136 "But found in it only one house of Muslims"
2931 We are going to destroy the people of this city. Truly its inhabitants are wrongdoers
The following verse is ample proof that God intends no harm to the believers even at the hand of His Messenger.
4825 They are the ones who denied Revelation and hindered you from the Al Masjidul Haram and the sacrificial animals, detained from reaching their place of sacrifice. Had there not been believing men and believing women whom ye did not know that ye were trampling down and on whose account a crime would have accrued to you without (your) knowledge, (Allah would have allowed you to force your way, but He held back your hands) that He may admit to His Mercy whom He will. If they had been apart, We should certainly have punished the Unbelievers among them with a grievous Punishment.
With this verse your argument breaks down completely. According to you this verse is referring to Mecca(4824). When God did not want the believers in this city to be harmed by his human Messenger would He have destroyed them with his Malaika messengers ?
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Peace Raging
You have a right to your opinion.We all do. )
I am not angry. But I could not stop laughing about your attitude and the ability to come up with irrelevant verses. Just go back few posts and check who started being belligerent and started this ?I am perfect? attitude. We are all here to discuss and learn. We don?t have loyalty here to a group called free minds since such a group does not exist. If you come up with good reasoning with support from the Quran I am ready to listen and accept. Many here will do the same even after taking your argument apart and putting up a lengthy debate.
Never have I said I am perfect. I have sinned and I am sure I will sin again, as every person's soul whispers evil. Your impression of me clouds your vision.
I only bring forth proofs to show why I believe what I believe. I cannot believe anyone on their word alone. If they bring proof, I look into it to confirm it. If it refutes what I know, I change. A believer says 'I hear and I obey'. Surah 57On the subject of Allahs sunna,
According to the Quran whenever a city or region was destroyed due to the wrong doing of its people God always saved the believers in those places. Whether it?s the people of Noah, Lot, Hud, Salih, Shohaib, Musa it has been the case.
6 47. Say "Think ye, if the punishment of Allah comes to you, whether suddenly or openly, will any be destroyed except those who do wrong?
5136 "But found in it only one house of Muslims"
2931 We are going to destroy the people of this city. Truly its inhabitants are wrongdoersThe following verse is ample proof that God intends no harm to the believers even at the hand of His Messenger.
Allah delivers the believers before the destruction. Such is the sunnati Allahi. The believers were taken out of the cities being destroyed. Just as the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers were removed from the city before it was destroyed at the hands of the disbelievers and the believers. Proof is already given that the city the Prophet was exiled from was destroyed.
4825 They are the ones who denied Revelation and hindered you from the Al Masjidul Haram and the sacrificial animals, detained from reaching their place of sacrifice. Had there not been believing men and believing women whom ye did not know that ye were trampling down and on whose account a crime would have accrued to you without (your) knowledge, (Allah would have allowed you to force your way, but He held back your hands) that He may admit to His Mercy whom He will. If they had been apart, We should certainly have punished the Unbelievers among them with a grievous Punishment.
With this verse your argument breaks down completely. According to you this verse is referring to Mecca(4824). When God did not want the believers in this city to be harmed by his human Messenger would He have destroyed them with his Malaika messengers ?
You refute nothing because you ignore Surah 592-4.
?It is He who expelled from their habitations the unbelievers among the People of the Book at the first mustering. You did not think that they would go forth, and they thought that their fortresses would defend them against God; then God came upon them from whence they had not reckoned, and He cast terror into their hearts as they destroyed their houses with their own hands, and the hands of the believers; therefore take heed, you who have eyes!
Had God not prescribed dispersal for them, He would have chastised them in this world; and there awaits them in the world to come the chastisement of the Fire.
That is because they made a breach with God and His Messenger; and whosoever makes a breach with God, God is terrible in retribution.? Surah 592-4You completely overlook what is in the ayat you choose to not quote for those who come behind to see.
"It is He who restrained their hands from you, and your hands from them, within Mecca, after that He made you victors over them. God sees the things you do." Surah 4824The city the Prophet and believers were exiled from was destroyed.
The city the Prophet and believers settled in was entered without violence.How do you reconcile the violence that destroyed the city in Surah 592-4, and the lack of violence in Surah 4824-25? Bring proof from the Quran to support why you believe what you believe.
You cannot show me Masjid Al-Haram, after asked numerous times.
You cannot show me Masjid Al-Aqsa, after asked numerous times.I am not of the doubters.
I have restated this over and over again, but you choose to ignore it. Such are your choices.
Peace.
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Dear Raging
If Mecca was the city which accepted the Messenger with open arms and warmth why would 4825 mention about the Messenger fighting in that city but God holding the Messengers and believers hands back so as to save the believing men and women in that city ? In the light of this verse the lack of violence is senseless.
If this city accepted the Messenger peacefully as you say why does God mention about a grievous punishment to the disbelievers in the city?
Who hindered and prevented the Messenger and the believers and the sacrifices reaching the Al Masjidul Haram ?
Allah delivers the believers before the destruction. Such is the sunnati Allahi. The believers were taken out of the cities being destroyed. Just as the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers were removed from the city before it was destroyed at the hands of the disbelievers and the believers. Proof is already given that the city the Prophet was exiled from was destroyed.
Good you understand this. Now can you explain why the believing men and believing women in Mecca were not taken out by God but God says "...if they (the believers and disbelievers) had been apart we would have punished the disbelievers with a grievous punishment "(48.25).
You refute nothing because you ignore Surah 592-4.
It is He who expelled from their habitations the unbelievers among the People of the Book at the first mustering. You did not think that they would go forth, and they thought that their fortresses would defend them against God; then God came upon them from whence they had not reckoned, and He cast terror into their hearts as they destroyed their houses with their own hands, and the hands of the believers; therefore take heed, you who have eyes!
Had God not prescribed dispersal for them, He would have chastised them in this world; and there awaits them in the world to come the chastisement of the Fire.
That is because they made a breach with God and His Messenger; and whosoever makes a breach with God, God is terrible in retribution.? Surah 592-4You completely overlook what is in the ayat you choose to not quote for those who come behind to see.
"It is He who restrained their hands from you, and your hands from them, within Mecca, after that He made you victors over them. God sees the things you do." Surah 4824Raging, I pointed to 4824 in my post above .
592 -4 talks about disbelievers among the people of the Book. People of the book did not expel the Messenger from Petra. People of the book were not living in the vicinity of Petra during that time with the vengeance which was being unleashed on them by the Holy Roman Empire and the Christians. Due to this reason the people of the book moved from the vicinity of Levant to the areas around Yathrib.
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Dear Raging
If Mecca was the city which accepted the Messenger with open arms and warmth
No where in the Quran does it say this. You add to the revelation with statements that are not there. Shame on you.
why would 4825 mention about the Messenger fighting in that city but God holding the Messengers and believers hands back so as to save the believing men and women in that city ?
No where in Surah 4825 does it mention conflict. By holding back the hands of the believers and disbelievers, it shows there was not conflict.
In the light of this verse the lack of violence is senseless.
Only because you are adding your own version to the ayats that is not in the ayats. You lay over your view of what you want it to be, and no one can help you when you do that except Allah.
"Surely the worst of beasts in God's sight are those that are deaf and dumb and do not understand." Surah 822
"Thou shalt not guide the blind out of their error neither shalt thou make any to hear except for such as believe in Our signs, and so submit." Surah 3053
If this city accepted the Messenger peacefully as you say why does God mention about a grievous punishment to the disbelievers in the city?
"They are the ones who disbelieved, and barred you from the Holy Mosque and the offering, detained so as not to reach its place of sacrifice. If it had not been for certain men believers and certain women believers whom you knew not, lest you should trample them, and there befall you guilt unwittingly on their account (that God may admit into His mercy whom He will), had they been separated clearly, then We would have chastised the unbelievers among them with a painful chastisement." Surah 4825
No chastisement occurred in Mecca, nor is there mention of a grievious punishment in Mecca. As the entrance to Masjid Al-Haram was their first, they did not know believer from disbeliever. Unlike in the city that exiled the Prophet and the believers, whom the believers and disbelievers were clearly separated, as the Quran states clearly. (See below.)
Who hindered and prevented the Messenger and the believers and the sacrifices reaching the Al Masjidul Haram ?
The disbelievers who fought the Prophet (pbuh) before their entrance to Masjid Al-Haram. They broke their oaths and attempted to expel the Prophet (pbuh) from Masjid Al-Haram, as stated in Surah 913
Who do you think Masjid Al-Qiblatain was built as a place of expectation for?"And those who have taken a mosque in opposition and unbelief, and to divide the believers, and as a place of ambush for those who fought God and His Messenger aforetime -- they will swear 'We desired nothing but good'; and God testifies they are truly liars." Surah 9107
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masjid_al-Qiblatain
The first chastisement occurred when He destroyed their homes, in which the disbelievers fled
"It is He who expelled from their habitations the unbelievers among the People of the Book at the first mustering. You did not think that they would go forth, and they thought that their fortresses would defend them against God; then God came upon them from whence they had not reckoned, and He cast terror into their hearts as they destroyed their houses with their own hands, and the hands of the believers; therefore take heed, you who have eyes! Had God not prescribed dispersal for them, He would have chastised them in this world; and there awaits them in the world to come the chastisement of the Fire." Surah 592-3
Where do you think the disbeliever fled after their dispersal?
Allah gives description of the believers and disbelievers in Surah 999-100
"And the Outstrippers, the first of the Emigrants and the Helpers, and those who followed them in good-doing -- God will be well-pleased with them and they are well-pleased with Him; and He has prepared for them gardens underneath which rivers flow, therein to dwell forever and ever; that is the mighty triumph.
And some of the Bedouins who dwell around you are hypocrites; and some of the people of the City are grown bold in hypocrisy. Thou knowest them not; but We know them, and We shall chastise them twice, then they will be returned to a mighty chastisement." Surah 999-100The expulsion of the Prophet is mentioned in Surah 940, when they hid in the cave
"If you do not help him, yet God has helped him already, when the unbelievers drove him forth the second of two, when the two were in the Cave, when he said to his companion, 'Sorrow not; surely God is with us.' Then God sent down on him His Shechina, and confirmed him with legions you did not see; and He made the word of the unbelievers the lowest; and God's word is the uppermost; God is All-mighty, All-wise." Surah 940
This is all in Surah 9, where the treaties made at Masjid Al-Haram are discussed in Surah 97. The fight against the disbelievers who continue to oppose Allah and His Messenger begins after the 4 months of peace. Surah 91-5
They are in Masjid Al-Haram at this time.Good you understand this. Now can you explain why the believing men and believing women in Mecca were not taken out by God but God says "...if they (the believers and disbelievers) had been apart we would have punished the disbelievers with a grievous punishment "(48.25).
Because after the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers settled in Mecca, the disbelievers who were dispersed broke their oaths and attempted to expel the Prophet again. They had 4 months of peace before the fighting began. Read Surah 9 again, as you will see they are in Masjid Al-Haram at that time, and those who were behind the expulsion the first time
"Will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and purposed to expel the Messenger, beginning the first time against you? Are you afraid of them? You would do better to be afraid of God, if you are believers." Surah 913
What you don't want to accept is the sunnati Allahi Allah destroys the cities that expel the Messengers. As Mecca is not the place that expelled the Prophet Muhammad, it was not destroyed.
You cannot change Allah's words.Raging, I pointed to 4824 in my post above .
592-4 talks about disbelievers among the people of the Book. People of the book did not expel the Messenger from Petra. People of the book were not living in the vicinity of Petra during that time with the vengeance which was being unleashed on them by the Holy Roman Empire and the Christians. Due to this reason the people of the book moved from the vicinity of Levant to the areas around Yathrib.I want you to remember that you are striving to discuss a topic you lack knowledge of, and that I am not bringing this information forth out of malice, or because I think I am perfect, but because Allah tells us to refute falsehood with Truth. You say Petra was being attacked by the Holy Roman Empire and the Christians. Your words are quoted and highlighted above.
The People of the Book include the Yahudians and the Nazarenes, in case you are thinking they are only the Nazarenes - who you call 'Christians'.
And to say Christians were not present in Petra at that time shows your lack of knowledge of the history of Petra."By 313 CE (AD), Christianity had become a state-recognized religion. In 330 CE, the Emperor Constantine established the Eastern Roman Empire with its capital at Constantinople. Although the 363 earthquake destroyed half of the city, it appears that Petra retained its urban vitality into late antiquity, when it was the seat of a Byzantine bishopric. The newly excavated Petra church with its papyrus scrolls document this period, especially in the sixth century, a phenomenon less well-attested in other sites so far south of 'Amman. In this period there is also striking archaeological and documentary evidence for accommodation between Christians and the pagan aristocracy. Thereafter one can read the archaeology of a fragmented middle Byzantine community living among and re-using the abandoned limestone and sandstone elements of its classical past. The inhabitants during the Byzantine Period recycled many standing structures and rock-cut monuments, while also constructing their own buildings, including churches ? such as the recently excavated Petra Church with the extraordinary mosaics. Among the rock-cut monuments they reused is the great tomb or the Ad-Dayr (known also as 'The Monastery', which was modified into a church. With a change in trade routes, Petra's commercial decline was inevitable. An even more devastating earthquake had a severe impact on the city in 551 CE, and all but brought the city to ruin. With the rise of Islam, Petra became a backwater community. Petra was revealed to the western world in 1812 for the first time since the Crusades when it was re-discovered by the Swiss explorer Johann Ludwig Burckhardt."
http//www.brown.edu/Departments/Joukowsky_Institute/Petra/excavations/history.html
You pointed out there was no violence in Mecca. But you cannot reconcile the destruction of the buildings of the disbelievers - People of the Book - who expelled the Messenger. You even say Allah changed His Sunnah to not destroy the city, because there were believers in there. Yet Allah makes clear in the Quran that the believers were to emigrate, and makes clear those who were believers and disbelievers
"They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper." Surah 489
"Those who believe, and have emigrated and struggled with their possessions and their selves in the way of God, and those who have given refuge and help -- those are friends one of another. And those who believe, but have not emigrated -- you have no duty of friendship towards them till they emigrate; yet if they ask you for help, for religion's sake, it is your duty to help them, except against a people between whom and you there is a compact; and God sees the things you do." Surah 872
"Then, surely thy Lord -- unto those who have emigrated after persecution, then struggled and were patient -- surely thy Lord thereafter is All-forgiving, All-compassionate." Surah 16110
The believers and disbelievers were well known in the city that exiled the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers.
At Masjid Al-Haram the believers and disbelievers were not well known because they had not entered the secure sanctuary yet.You say there were no People of the Book in Petra, but the Quran says otherwise
?And We gave Moses the Book, after that We had destroyed the former generations, to be examples and a guidance and a mercy, that haply so they might remember.
You were not upon the western side when We decreed to Moses the commandment, nor were you of those witnessing;
but We raised up generations, and long their lives continued. Neither were you a dweller among the Midianites (madyana), reciting to them Our signs; but We were sending Messengers.
You were not upon the side of the Mount (alttoori) when We called; but for a mercy from thy Lord, that you may warn a people to whom no warner came before you, and that haply they may remember.
Else, did an affliction visit them for that their own hands have forwarded then they might say, 'Our Lord, why didst Thou not send a Messenger to us that we might follow Thy signs and so be among the believers?'
Yet when the truth came to them from Ourselves, they said, 'Why has he not been given the like of that Moses was given?' But they, did they not disbelieve also in what Moses was given aforetime? They said, 'A pair of sorceries mutually supporting each other.' They said, 'We disbelieve both.'
Say 'Bring a Book from Allah that gives better guidance than these, and follow it, if you speak truly.'? Surah 2843-49Who came to the forefathers of the People of the Book with the Torah so that they disbelieved in it?
How many times must you be proven wrong before you let go of falsehood and accept the Truth?
It doesn't matter to me what you believe, or don't believe for that matter. I'm not perfect, and I am not saying I am a righteous man. This discussion is increasing my iman as Allah brings knowledge from the Quran that verifies the History of man, and refuting your conjecture over and over again. But this also helps me in understanding, as I see now that I was wrong in attributing the Dome of the Rock as the masjid we are never to stand in, being a pagan temple converted into a Masjid.
It is Masjid Al-Qiblatain - the Mosque of Two Qiblahs in Medina - that was created to divide the believers. Proof is given above, the description is clear. When I am shown the Truth, I say "I hear and I obey".Allah gives us warning
"The buildings they have built will not cease to be a point of doubt within their hearts, unless it be that their hearts are cut into pieces; God is All-knowing, All-wise." Surah 9110
We are to face Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque. Surah 2144, 2149, 2150. Allah tells us this three (3) times.
Allah tells us three (3) times "This is truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of the doubters." Surah 2144, 2147, 2149I am not of the doubters. My qiblah is Masjid Al-Haram.
"O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you; and let them find in you a harshness; and know that God is with the godfearing." Surah 9123
Peace.
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Dear All, Please can you help me understand the significance of below quotes (copied / pasted into one of the threads in free-minds from iipc based quran.org/forum) in the context of qibla. They also seemed to have concluded that Masjid Al Haram is located in Makkah/Mecca. Thanks in advance.
Quote1. Evidence from Al-Qur'an about Location of Al Masjid Al Haraam (The Sacred Mosque) & Al Bayt (The House)
"And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Makka, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do." 4824
"They (the unbelievers whose hands were restrained by Allah from the believers in the middle of Makkah) are the rejectors and they opposed you from Al Masjid Al Haraam and the sacrificial animals, detained from reaching their place of sacrifice. Had there not been believing men and believing women whom ye did not know that ye were trampling down and on whose account a crime would have accrued to you without (your) knowledge, ((Allah) would have allowed you to force your way, but He held back your hands) that He may admit to His Mercy whom He will. If they had been apart, We should certainly have punished the Unbelievers among them with a grievous Punishment." 4815
It is clear from 4814-15 that the residents of Makkah who were rejecting prevented the believers from Al Masjid Al Haraam and also prevented the Hadya (gift, sacrifical animal) from reaching its place, which is further described as Al Bayt Al Ateeq i.e. the ancient House in Al Hajj 2233. Therefore, it is evident from pondering on these ayaat that both Al Masjid Al Haraam as well as Al Bayt (The House) mentioned in various ayaat are located in Makkah and not in Jerusalem.
Unquote -
Salam Patanahi,
If you read the verses quoted in your post, there are two simple conclusions that are drawn
- There was a place called "Makkah" during the time of the Quran,
- This place "Makka" was an enemy city of Islam and was actively hindering pilgrims and donations as they made their way up through the "center" if this city.
These verses have been pointed out several times by the proponents of Bakka (Jerusalem) to show that "Makka", as mentioned in the Quran, not only is not the place of pilgrimage/donations, but is a town/city on the way that was hostile to the believers.
This is why the discussion on "Petra" has ranged where some (myself included) have stated that Petra is the Quranic "Mecca" that was an enemy to the believers and is physically located on the path from Yathrib to Bakka.
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Salam Patanahi,
What is the significance of verse 2158 in the context of determining the location of masjid al haraam and ka'aba? The verse starts with a reference towards two hilltops "Al Safa" and "Al Marwa" which are located in Makkah next to Ka'aba
Who is to say they are hilltops? The words "Safa" means "Stone/rock" (see the use of "Safwan" in the Quran).
The temple of Jerusalem has a "stone'rock" at its center (hence the name the "dome of the Rock"
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What is the significance of verse 2158 in the context of determining the location of masjid al haraam and ka'aba? The verse starts with a reference towards two hilltops "Al Safa" and "Al Marwa" which are located in Makkah next to Ka'aba
Marwa (و means 'quartz', not a 'high place'.
"Safa and Marwa are signs of Allah (shaAAa-iri Allahi); so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them." Surah 2158
Safa (ا
lined (ِ Surah 371
rows (ا Surah 1848, 2064, 371, 614, 7838, 8922"And We set, between them and the towns (alqura) that We have blessed (barakna), cities apparent (quran thahiratan) and well We measured (waqaddarna) the sierras (alssayra) between them 'Journey among them by night and day in security!'" Surah 3418
Mountain ranges/Sierras (alssayra/sayran) Surah 3418, 5210
The House is in a valley, not on a mount
"Our Lord, I have made some of my seed to dwell in a valley (biwadin) where is no sown land by Thy Holy House (baytika almuharrami); Our Lord, let them perform the prayer, and make hearts of men yearn towards them, and provide them with fruits; haply they will be thankful." Surah 1437
"I have only been commanded to serve the Lord of this territory (hathihi) which He has made sacred (harramaha); to Him belongs everything. And I have been commanded to be of those that surrender (almuslimeena)," Surah 2791
Peace.
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My appologies, Marwah is indeed a "rock" as is Safa.
Abraham made part of his progeny reside in a valley "near" the Bayt Al-Haram (not at it).
If we read the Quran a bit more carefully, we find that Abraham is referring to Lot who was from his progeny.
Lot was based around the area of the Dead Sea - near the Bayt Al-Haram - near Jerusalem.
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My appologies, Marwah is indeed a "rock" as is Safa.
Thank you for your admission of error.
Abraham made part of his progeny reside in a valley "near" the Bayt Al-Haram (not at it).
""Our Lord, I have made some of my seed (dhurriyyatī to dwell in a valley (biwadin) where is no sown land by Thy Holy House (baytika almuharrami); Our Lord, let them perform the prayer, and make hearts of men yearn towards them, and provide them with fruits; haply they will be thankful." Surah 1437
(biwadin)
(biwadin)
(biwadin)Layth, do you say 'Near the name of Allah' or do you say 'In the name of Allah' when you say 'Bismillah'?
If we read the Quran a bit more carefully, we find that Abraham is referring to Lot who was from his progeny.
So you are claiming that Lot (pbuh) is Abraham's (pbuh) descendent - his seed?
"And when thy Lord took from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed (dhurriyyatahum), and made them testify touching themselves, 'Am I not your Lord?' They said, 'Yes, we testify'-- lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection, 'As for us, we were heedless of this,'" Surah 7172
You do understand that in every instance that (dhurriyyatī is used in the Quran, it speaks of someone who is offspring - a descendent - and not a relative. Surah 2124, 2128, 2266, 334, 336, 338, 49, 684, 687, 6133, 7172, 7173, 1083, 1338, 1437, 1440, 173, 1762, 1850, 1958, 2927, 3641, 3777, 37113, 4615, 5221, 5726
"That is Our argument, which We bestowed upon Abraham as against his people. We raise up in degrees whom We will; surely thy Lord is All-wise, All-knowing.
And We gave to him Isaac and Jacob -- each one We guided, And Noah We guided before; and of his seed (dhurriyyatihi) David and Solomon, Job and Joseph, Moses and Aaron -- even so We recompense the good-doers -- Zachariah and John, Isa and Elias; each was of the righteous; Ishmael and Elisha, Jonah and Lot - each one We preferred above all beings; and of their fathers, and of their seed (wadhurriyytihim), and of their brethren (wa-ikh'wnihim); and We elected them, and We guided them to a straight path." Surah 683-87"And We gave Moses the Book, and made it a guidance to the Children of Israel 'Take not unto yourselves any guardian apart from Me.' The seed (dhurriyyata) of those We bore with Noah; he was a thankful servant." Surah 172-3
"These are they whom God has blessed among the Prophets of the seed (dhurriyyati) of Adam, and of those We bore with Noah, and of the seed (dhurriyyati) of Abraham and Israel, and of those We guided and chose. When the signs of the All-merciful were recited to them, they fell down prostrate, weeping." Surah 1958
"And We sent Noah, and Abraham, and We appointed the Prophecy and the Book to be among their seed (dhurriyyatihim and some of them are guided, and many of them are ungodly." Surah 5726
Let us see your proof that Lot is an descendant of Abraham - offspring from his loins.
"And there is a sect of them twist their tongues with the Book, that you may suppose it part of the Book, yet it is not part of the Book; and they say, 'It is from God,' yet it is not from God, and they speak falsehood against God, and that wittingly." Surah 378
Peace.
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Just for my understanding I want to reconfirm about the comments on Al Safa and Al Marwa. Are we saying that besides Al Safa and Al Marwa (located near Ka'aba in Makkah) there is another Al Safa and Al Marwa located in Jerusalem.
Regarding Jerusalem, please can someone comment on the following post in one of the threads on this forum
QuoteAnyone has any thought on this verse?
10.025
Wa Allahu yadAAoo ila dari alssalami wayahdee man yashao ila siratin mustaqeem.
And / but Allah call to the Home of Peace (Dari al-Salami) He guide whom He pleaseth to a way that is straight.Does "Home Of Peace" = "Dari al-Salami" = "Yerushaliyem" = "Jerusalem"?
UnqouteI hope you all bear with me and my comments as I am new to all these discussions and usually ask about things that are commonly known to people here but are great source of learning for me.
Thanks
