Is Jerusalem the Qibla?
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Now 171 is a vision ?
So may I ask how did he travel in that vision ? I thought you said the Messenger just arraived in Masjid ul Haram from Petra via Yathrib, after a stint of few years there. Now why does he need a vision of a return journey ?Are you seriously asking how a person travels in a vision?
What provision are you talking about in Masjid ul Haram ? Petra was the center of the Nabatean trade routes and again the provision applies to the city than to Mecca.
Proof of this claim that it applies to Petra, not Mecca?
Explanation is not proof.Allah repeats His Messages in the Quran for those who study.
"So We turn about the signs, that they may say, 'Thou hast studied'; and that We may make it clear to a people having knowledge." Surah 6105
?And when Abraham said, 'My Lord, make this a land secure, and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in God and the Last Day.' He said, 'And whoso disbelieves, to him I shall give enjoyment a little, then I shall compel him to the chastisement of the Fire -- how evil a homecoming!'? Surah 2126
?O believers, the idolaters are indeed unclean; so let them not come near the Holy Mosque after this year of theirs. If you fear poverty, God shall surely enrich you of His bounty, if He will; God is All-knowing; All-wise.? Surah 928
?They say, 'Should we follow the guidance with thee, we shall be snatched from our land.' Have We not established for them a sanctuary secure, to which are collected the fruits of everything, as a provision from Us? But most of them know not.? Surah 2857I asked you to show me Masjid Al-Haram. You cannot. Why would I believe you when you cannot even provide an answer?
I asked you to show me Masjid Al-Aqsa. You cannot. Again, why would I believe you when you cannot provide proof to show why you believe what you believe?You cannot answer except with anger and ridicule. And you expect me to believe you? Your very words manifest the hatred in your heart.
"Or did those in whose hearts is sickness think that God would not bring to light their rancour? Did We will, We would show them to thee, then thou wouldst know them by their mark; and thou shalt certainly know them in the twisting of their speech; and God knows your deeds." Surah 4729-30
Why would I believe a person whose description matches that of a disbeliever in the Quran?
You trying to lecture on Persians and Byzantines with your little knowledge picked out from wikipidia is a joke. Go read about Emperor Maurice and how he became the brother in law to the Persian Emperor and the resultant peace until the death of Maurice in 602 from the same wikipedia. Its all there.
Read a History book. I am providing proof that is easily verifiable with a click, and the references on the Wikipedia pages provide further resources for your research. What you choose to do with them is up to you.
You are welcome to believe whatever you desire.
Bear witness I submit my will to Allah. I am not of the doubters.
Masjid Al-Haram is my qiblah."So We have appointed to every Prophet an enemy -- satans of men and jinn, revealing tawdry speech to each other, all as a delusion; yet, had thy Lord willed, they would never have done it. So leave them to their forging," Surah 6112
Three times you spit insult and anger, yet bring no proof.
This conversation is over. )I bid you 'Peace'.
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Peace Raging
You have a right to your opinion.
I am not angry. But I could not stop laughing about your attitude and the ability to come up with irrelevant verses. Just go back few posts and check who started being belligerent and started this ?I am perfect? attitude. We are all here to discuss and learn. We don?t have loyalty here to a group called free minds since such a group does not exist. If you come up with good reasoning with support from the Quran I am ready to listen and accept. Many here will do the same even after taking your argument apart and putting up a lengthy debate.
On the subject of Allahs sunna,
According to the Quran whenever a city or region was destroyed due to the wrong doing of its people God always saved the believers in those places. Whether it?s the people of Noah, Lot, Hud, Salih, Shohaib, Musa it has been the case.
6 47. Say "Think ye, if the punishment of Allah comes to you, whether suddenly or openly, will any be destroyed except those who do wrong?
5136 "But found in it only one house of Muslims"
2931 We are going to destroy the people of this city. Truly its inhabitants are wrongdoers
The following verse is ample proof that God intends no harm to the believers even at the hand of His Messenger.
4825 They are the ones who denied Revelation and hindered you from the Al Masjidul Haram and the sacrificial animals, detained from reaching their place of sacrifice. Had there not been believing men and believing women whom ye did not know that ye were trampling down and on whose account a crime would have accrued to you without (your) knowledge, (Allah would have allowed you to force your way, but He held back your hands) that He may admit to His Mercy whom He will. If they had been apart, We should certainly have punished the Unbelievers among them with a grievous Punishment.
With this verse your argument breaks down completely. According to you this verse is referring to Mecca(4824). When God did not want the believers in this city to be harmed by his human Messenger would He have destroyed them with his Malaika messengers ?
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Peace Raging
You have a right to your opinion.We all do. )
I am not angry. But I could not stop laughing about your attitude and the ability to come up with irrelevant verses. Just go back few posts and check who started being belligerent and started this ?I am perfect? attitude. We are all here to discuss and learn. We don?t have loyalty here to a group called free minds since such a group does not exist. If you come up with good reasoning with support from the Quran I am ready to listen and accept. Many here will do the same even after taking your argument apart and putting up a lengthy debate.
Never have I said I am perfect. I have sinned and I am sure I will sin again, as every person's soul whispers evil. Your impression of me clouds your vision.
I only bring forth proofs to show why I believe what I believe. I cannot believe anyone on their word alone. If they bring proof, I look into it to confirm it. If it refutes what I know, I change. A believer says 'I hear and I obey'. Surah 57On the subject of Allahs sunna,
According to the Quran whenever a city or region was destroyed due to the wrong doing of its people God always saved the believers in those places. Whether it?s the people of Noah, Lot, Hud, Salih, Shohaib, Musa it has been the case.
6 47. Say "Think ye, if the punishment of Allah comes to you, whether suddenly or openly, will any be destroyed except those who do wrong?
5136 "But found in it only one house of Muslims"
2931 We are going to destroy the people of this city. Truly its inhabitants are wrongdoersThe following verse is ample proof that God intends no harm to the believers even at the hand of His Messenger.
Allah delivers the believers before the destruction. Such is the sunnati Allahi. The believers were taken out of the cities being destroyed. Just as the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers were removed from the city before it was destroyed at the hands of the disbelievers and the believers. Proof is already given that the city the Prophet was exiled from was destroyed.
4825 They are the ones who denied Revelation and hindered you from the Al Masjidul Haram and the sacrificial animals, detained from reaching their place of sacrifice. Had there not been believing men and believing women whom ye did not know that ye were trampling down and on whose account a crime would have accrued to you without (your) knowledge, (Allah would have allowed you to force your way, but He held back your hands) that He may admit to His Mercy whom He will. If they had been apart, We should certainly have punished the Unbelievers among them with a grievous Punishment.
With this verse your argument breaks down completely. According to you this verse is referring to Mecca(4824). When God did not want the believers in this city to be harmed by his human Messenger would He have destroyed them with his Malaika messengers ?
You refute nothing because you ignore Surah 592-4.
?It is He who expelled from their habitations the unbelievers among the People of the Book at the first mustering. You did not think that they would go forth, and they thought that their fortresses would defend them against God; then God came upon them from whence they had not reckoned, and He cast terror into their hearts as they destroyed their houses with their own hands, and the hands of the believers; therefore take heed, you who have eyes!
Had God not prescribed dispersal for them, He would have chastised them in this world; and there awaits them in the world to come the chastisement of the Fire.
That is because they made a breach with God and His Messenger; and whosoever makes a breach with God, God is terrible in retribution.? Surah 592-4You completely overlook what is in the ayat you choose to not quote for those who come behind to see.
"It is He who restrained their hands from you, and your hands from them, within Mecca, after that He made you victors over them. God sees the things you do." Surah 4824The city the Prophet and believers were exiled from was destroyed.
The city the Prophet and believers settled in was entered without violence.How do you reconcile the violence that destroyed the city in Surah 592-4, and the lack of violence in Surah 4824-25? Bring proof from the Quran to support why you believe what you believe.
You cannot show me Masjid Al-Haram, after asked numerous times.
You cannot show me Masjid Al-Aqsa, after asked numerous times.I am not of the doubters.
I have restated this over and over again, but you choose to ignore it. Such are your choices.
Peace.
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Dear Raging
If Mecca was the city which accepted the Messenger with open arms and warmth why would 4825 mention about the Messenger fighting in that city but God holding the Messengers and believers hands back so as to save the believing men and women in that city ? In the light of this verse the lack of violence is senseless.
If this city accepted the Messenger peacefully as you say why does God mention about a grievous punishment to the disbelievers in the city?
Who hindered and prevented the Messenger and the believers and the sacrifices reaching the Al Masjidul Haram ?
Allah delivers the believers before the destruction. Such is the sunnati Allahi. The believers were taken out of the cities being destroyed. Just as the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers were removed from the city before it was destroyed at the hands of the disbelievers and the believers. Proof is already given that the city the Prophet was exiled from was destroyed.
Good you understand this. Now can you explain why the believing men and believing women in Mecca were not taken out by God but God says "...if they (the believers and disbelievers) had been apart we would have punished the disbelievers with a grievous punishment "(48.25).
You refute nothing because you ignore Surah 592-4.
It is He who expelled from their habitations the unbelievers among the People of the Book at the first mustering. You did not think that they would go forth, and they thought that their fortresses would defend them against God; then God came upon them from whence they had not reckoned, and He cast terror into their hearts as they destroyed their houses with their own hands, and the hands of the believers; therefore take heed, you who have eyes!
Had God not prescribed dispersal for them, He would have chastised them in this world; and there awaits them in the world to come the chastisement of the Fire.
That is because they made a breach with God and His Messenger; and whosoever makes a breach with God, God is terrible in retribution.? Surah 592-4You completely overlook what is in the ayat you choose to not quote for those who come behind to see.
"It is He who restrained their hands from you, and your hands from them, within Mecca, after that He made you victors over them. God sees the things you do." Surah 4824Raging, I pointed to 4824 in my post above .
592 -4 talks about disbelievers among the people of the Book. People of the book did not expel the Messenger from Petra. People of the book were not living in the vicinity of Petra during that time with the vengeance which was being unleashed on them by the Holy Roman Empire and the Christians. Due to this reason the people of the book moved from the vicinity of Levant to the areas around Yathrib.
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Dear Raging
If Mecca was the city which accepted the Messenger with open arms and warmth
No where in the Quran does it say this. You add to the revelation with statements that are not there. Shame on you.
why would 4825 mention about the Messenger fighting in that city but God holding the Messengers and believers hands back so as to save the believing men and women in that city ?
No where in Surah 4825 does it mention conflict. By holding back the hands of the believers and disbelievers, it shows there was not conflict.
In the light of this verse the lack of violence is senseless.
Only because you are adding your own version to the ayats that is not in the ayats. You lay over your view of what you want it to be, and no one can help you when you do that except Allah.
"Surely the worst of beasts in God's sight are those that are deaf and dumb and do not understand." Surah 822
"Thou shalt not guide the blind out of their error neither shalt thou make any to hear except for such as believe in Our signs, and so submit." Surah 3053
If this city accepted the Messenger peacefully as you say why does God mention about a grievous punishment to the disbelievers in the city?
"They are the ones who disbelieved, and barred you from the Holy Mosque and the offering, detained so as not to reach its place of sacrifice. If it had not been for certain men believers and certain women believers whom you knew not, lest you should trample them, and there befall you guilt unwittingly on their account (that God may admit into His mercy whom He will), had they been separated clearly, then We would have chastised the unbelievers among them with a painful chastisement." Surah 4825
No chastisement occurred in Mecca, nor is there mention of a grievious punishment in Mecca. As the entrance to Masjid Al-Haram was their first, they did not know believer from disbeliever. Unlike in the city that exiled the Prophet and the believers, whom the believers and disbelievers were clearly separated, as the Quran states clearly. (See below.)
Who hindered and prevented the Messenger and the believers and the sacrifices reaching the Al Masjidul Haram ?
The disbelievers who fought the Prophet (pbuh) before their entrance to Masjid Al-Haram. They broke their oaths and attempted to expel the Prophet (pbuh) from Masjid Al-Haram, as stated in Surah 913
Who do you think Masjid Al-Qiblatain was built as a place of expectation for?"And those who have taken a mosque in opposition and unbelief, and to divide the believers, and as a place of ambush for those who fought God and His Messenger aforetime -- they will swear 'We desired nothing but good'; and God testifies they are truly liars." Surah 9107
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masjid_al-Qiblatain
The first chastisement occurred when He destroyed their homes, in which the disbelievers fled
"It is He who expelled from their habitations the unbelievers among the People of the Book at the first mustering. You did not think that they would go forth, and they thought that their fortresses would defend them against God; then God came upon them from whence they had not reckoned, and He cast terror into their hearts as they destroyed their houses with their own hands, and the hands of the believers; therefore take heed, you who have eyes! Had God not prescribed dispersal for them, He would have chastised them in this world; and there awaits them in the world to come the chastisement of the Fire." Surah 592-3
Where do you think the disbeliever fled after their dispersal?
Allah gives description of the believers and disbelievers in Surah 999-100
"And the Outstrippers, the first of the Emigrants and the Helpers, and those who followed them in good-doing -- God will be well-pleased with them and they are well-pleased with Him; and He has prepared for them gardens underneath which rivers flow, therein to dwell forever and ever; that is the mighty triumph.
And some of the Bedouins who dwell around you are hypocrites; and some of the people of the City are grown bold in hypocrisy. Thou knowest them not; but We know them, and We shall chastise them twice, then they will be returned to a mighty chastisement." Surah 999-100The expulsion of the Prophet is mentioned in Surah 940, when they hid in the cave
"If you do not help him, yet God has helped him already, when the unbelievers drove him forth the second of two, when the two were in the Cave, when he said to his companion, 'Sorrow not; surely God is with us.' Then God sent down on him His Shechina, and confirmed him with legions you did not see; and He made the word of the unbelievers the lowest; and God's word is the uppermost; God is All-mighty, All-wise." Surah 940
This is all in Surah 9, where the treaties made at Masjid Al-Haram are discussed in Surah 97. The fight against the disbelievers who continue to oppose Allah and His Messenger begins after the 4 months of peace. Surah 91-5
They are in Masjid Al-Haram at this time.Good you understand this. Now can you explain why the believing men and believing women in Mecca were not taken out by God but God says "...if they (the believers and disbelievers) had been apart we would have punished the disbelievers with a grievous punishment "(48.25).
Because after the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers settled in Mecca, the disbelievers who were dispersed broke their oaths and attempted to expel the Prophet again. They had 4 months of peace before the fighting began. Read Surah 9 again, as you will see they are in Masjid Al-Haram at that time, and those who were behind the expulsion the first time
"Will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and purposed to expel the Messenger, beginning the first time against you? Are you afraid of them? You would do better to be afraid of God, if you are believers." Surah 913
What you don't want to accept is the sunnati Allahi Allah destroys the cities that expel the Messengers. As Mecca is not the place that expelled the Prophet Muhammad, it was not destroyed.
You cannot change Allah's words.Raging, I pointed to 4824 in my post above .
592-4 talks about disbelievers among the people of the Book. People of the book did not expel the Messenger from Petra. People of the book were not living in the vicinity of Petra during that time with the vengeance which was being unleashed on them by the Holy Roman Empire and the Christians. Due to this reason the people of the book moved from the vicinity of Levant to the areas around Yathrib.I want you to remember that you are striving to discuss a topic you lack knowledge of, and that I am not bringing this information forth out of malice, or because I think I am perfect, but because Allah tells us to refute falsehood with Truth. You say Petra was being attacked by the Holy Roman Empire and the Christians. Your words are quoted and highlighted above.
The People of the Book include the Yahudians and the Nazarenes, in case you are thinking they are only the Nazarenes - who you call 'Christians'.
And to say Christians were not present in Petra at that time shows your lack of knowledge of the history of Petra."By 313 CE (AD), Christianity had become a state-recognized religion. In 330 CE, the Emperor Constantine established the Eastern Roman Empire with its capital at Constantinople. Although the 363 earthquake destroyed half of the city, it appears that Petra retained its urban vitality into late antiquity, when it was the seat of a Byzantine bishopric. The newly excavated Petra church with its papyrus scrolls document this period, especially in the sixth century, a phenomenon less well-attested in other sites so far south of 'Amman. In this period there is also striking archaeological and documentary evidence for accommodation between Christians and the pagan aristocracy. Thereafter one can read the archaeology of a fragmented middle Byzantine community living among and re-using the abandoned limestone and sandstone elements of its classical past. The inhabitants during the Byzantine Period recycled many standing structures and rock-cut monuments, while also constructing their own buildings, including churches ? such as the recently excavated Petra Church with the extraordinary mosaics. Among the rock-cut monuments they reused is the great tomb or the Ad-Dayr (known also as 'The Monastery', which was modified into a church. With a change in trade routes, Petra's commercial decline was inevitable. An even more devastating earthquake had a severe impact on the city in 551 CE, and all but brought the city to ruin. With the rise of Islam, Petra became a backwater community. Petra was revealed to the western world in 1812 for the first time since the Crusades when it was re-discovered by the Swiss explorer Johann Ludwig Burckhardt."
http//www.brown.edu/Departments/Joukowsky_Institute/Petra/excavations/history.html
You pointed out there was no violence in Mecca. But you cannot reconcile the destruction of the buildings of the disbelievers - People of the Book - who expelled the Messenger. You even say Allah changed His Sunnah to not destroy the city, because there were believers in there. Yet Allah makes clear in the Quran that the believers were to emigrate, and makes clear those who were believers and disbelievers
"They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper." Surah 489
"Those who believe, and have emigrated and struggled with their possessions and their selves in the way of God, and those who have given refuge and help -- those are friends one of another. And those who believe, but have not emigrated -- you have no duty of friendship towards them till they emigrate; yet if they ask you for help, for religion's sake, it is your duty to help them, except against a people between whom and you there is a compact; and God sees the things you do." Surah 872
"Then, surely thy Lord -- unto those who have emigrated after persecution, then struggled and were patient -- surely thy Lord thereafter is All-forgiving, All-compassionate." Surah 16110
The believers and disbelievers were well known in the city that exiled the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers.
At Masjid Al-Haram the believers and disbelievers were not well known because they had not entered the secure sanctuary yet.You say there were no People of the Book in Petra, but the Quran says otherwise
?And We gave Moses the Book, after that We had destroyed the former generations, to be examples and a guidance and a mercy, that haply so they might remember.
You were not upon the western side when We decreed to Moses the commandment, nor were you of those witnessing;
but We raised up generations, and long their lives continued. Neither were you a dweller among the Midianites (madyana), reciting to them Our signs; but We were sending Messengers.
You were not upon the side of the Mount (alttoori) when We called; but for a mercy from thy Lord, that you may warn a people to whom no warner came before you, and that haply they may remember.
Else, did an affliction visit them for that their own hands have forwarded then they might say, 'Our Lord, why didst Thou not send a Messenger to us that we might follow Thy signs and so be among the believers?'
Yet when the truth came to them from Ourselves, they said, 'Why has he not been given the like of that Moses was given?' But they, did they not disbelieve also in what Moses was given aforetime? They said, 'A pair of sorceries mutually supporting each other.' They said, 'We disbelieve both.'
Say 'Bring a Book from Allah that gives better guidance than these, and follow it, if you speak truly.'? Surah 2843-49Who came to the forefathers of the People of the Book with the Torah so that they disbelieved in it?
How many times must you be proven wrong before you let go of falsehood and accept the Truth?
It doesn't matter to me what you believe, or don't believe for that matter. I'm not perfect, and I am not saying I am a righteous man. This discussion is increasing my iman as Allah brings knowledge from the Quran that verifies the History of man, and refuting your conjecture over and over again. But this also helps me in understanding, as I see now that I was wrong in attributing the Dome of the Rock as the masjid we are never to stand in, being a pagan temple converted into a Masjid.
It is Masjid Al-Qiblatain - the Mosque of Two Qiblahs in Medina - that was created to divide the believers. Proof is given above, the description is clear. When I am shown the Truth, I say "I hear and I obey".Allah gives us warning
"The buildings they have built will not cease to be a point of doubt within their hearts, unless it be that their hearts are cut into pieces; God is All-knowing, All-wise." Surah 9110
We are to face Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque. Surah 2144, 2149, 2150. Allah tells us this three (3) times.
Allah tells us three (3) times "This is truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of the doubters." Surah 2144, 2147, 2149I am not of the doubters. My qiblah is Masjid Al-Haram.
"O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you; and let them find in you a harshness; and know that God is with the godfearing." Surah 9123
Peace.
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Dear All, Please can you help me understand the significance of below quotes (copied / pasted into one of the threads in free-minds from iipc based quran.org/forum) in the context of qibla. They also seemed to have concluded that Masjid Al Haram is located in Makkah/Mecca. Thanks in advance.
Quote1. Evidence from Al-Qur'an about Location of Al Masjid Al Haraam (The Sacred Mosque) & Al Bayt (The House)
"And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Makka, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do." 4824
"They (the unbelievers whose hands were restrained by Allah from the believers in the middle of Makkah) are the rejectors and they opposed you from Al Masjid Al Haraam and the sacrificial animals, detained from reaching their place of sacrifice. Had there not been believing men and believing women whom ye did not know that ye were trampling down and on whose account a crime would have accrued to you without (your) knowledge, ((Allah) would have allowed you to force your way, but He held back your hands) that He may admit to His Mercy whom He will. If they had been apart, We should certainly have punished the Unbelievers among them with a grievous Punishment." 4815
It is clear from 4814-15 that the residents of Makkah who were rejecting prevented the believers from Al Masjid Al Haraam and also prevented the Hadya (gift, sacrifical animal) from reaching its place, which is further described as Al Bayt Al Ateeq i.e. the ancient House in Al Hajj 2233. Therefore, it is evident from pondering on these ayaat that both Al Masjid Al Haraam as well as Al Bayt (The House) mentioned in various ayaat are located in Makkah and not in Jerusalem.
Unquote -
Salam Patanahi,
If you read the verses quoted in your post, there are two simple conclusions that are drawn
- There was a place called "Makkah" during the time of the Quran,
- This place "Makka" was an enemy city of Islam and was actively hindering pilgrims and donations as they made their way up through the "center" if this city.
These verses have been pointed out several times by the proponents of Bakka (Jerusalem) to show that "Makka", as mentioned in the Quran, not only is not the place of pilgrimage/donations, but is a town/city on the way that was hostile to the believers.
This is why the discussion on "Petra" has ranged where some (myself included) have stated that Petra is the Quranic "Mecca" that was an enemy to the believers and is physically located on the path from Yathrib to Bakka.
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Salam Patanahi,
What is the significance of verse 2158 in the context of determining the location of masjid al haraam and ka'aba? The verse starts with a reference towards two hilltops "Al Safa" and "Al Marwa" which are located in Makkah next to Ka'aba
Who is to say they are hilltops? The words "Safa" means "Stone/rock" (see the use of "Safwan" in the Quran).
The temple of Jerusalem has a "stone'rock" at its center (hence the name the "dome of the Rock"
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What is the significance of verse 2158 in the context of determining the location of masjid al haraam and ka'aba? The verse starts with a reference towards two hilltops "Al Safa" and "Al Marwa" which are located in Makkah next to Ka'aba
Marwa (و means 'quartz', not a 'high place'.
"Safa and Marwa are signs of Allah (shaAAa-iri Allahi); so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them." Surah 2158
Safa (ا
lined (ِ Surah 371
rows (ا Surah 1848, 2064, 371, 614, 7838, 8922"And We set, between them and the towns (alqura) that We have blessed (barakna), cities apparent (quran thahiratan) and well We measured (waqaddarna) the sierras (alssayra) between them 'Journey among them by night and day in security!'" Surah 3418
Mountain ranges/Sierras (alssayra/sayran) Surah 3418, 5210
The House is in a valley, not on a mount
"Our Lord, I have made some of my seed to dwell in a valley (biwadin) where is no sown land by Thy Holy House (baytika almuharrami); Our Lord, let them perform the prayer, and make hearts of men yearn towards them, and provide them with fruits; haply they will be thankful." Surah 1437
"I have only been commanded to serve the Lord of this territory (hathihi) which He has made sacred (harramaha); to Him belongs everything. And I have been commanded to be of those that surrender (almuslimeena)," Surah 2791
Peace.
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My appologies, Marwah is indeed a "rock" as is Safa.
Abraham made part of his progeny reside in a valley "near" the Bayt Al-Haram (not at it).
If we read the Quran a bit more carefully, we find that Abraham is referring to Lot who was from his progeny.
Lot was based around the area of the Dead Sea - near the Bayt Al-Haram - near Jerusalem.
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My appologies, Marwah is indeed a "rock" as is Safa.
Thank you for your admission of error.
Abraham made part of his progeny reside in a valley "near" the Bayt Al-Haram (not at it).
""Our Lord, I have made some of my seed (dhurriyyatī to dwell in a valley (biwadin) where is no sown land by Thy Holy House (baytika almuharrami); Our Lord, let them perform the prayer, and make hearts of men yearn towards them, and provide them with fruits; haply they will be thankful." Surah 1437
(biwadin)
(biwadin)
(biwadin)Layth, do you say 'Near the name of Allah' or do you say 'In the name of Allah' when you say 'Bismillah'?
If we read the Quran a bit more carefully, we find that Abraham is referring to Lot who was from his progeny.
So you are claiming that Lot (pbuh) is Abraham's (pbuh) descendent - his seed?
"And when thy Lord took from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed (dhurriyyatahum), and made them testify touching themselves, 'Am I not your Lord?' They said, 'Yes, we testify'-- lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection, 'As for us, we were heedless of this,'" Surah 7172
You do understand that in every instance that (dhurriyyatī is used in the Quran, it speaks of someone who is offspring - a descendent - and not a relative. Surah 2124, 2128, 2266, 334, 336, 338, 49, 684, 687, 6133, 7172, 7173, 1083, 1338, 1437, 1440, 173, 1762, 1850, 1958, 2927, 3641, 3777, 37113, 4615, 5221, 5726
"That is Our argument, which We bestowed upon Abraham as against his people. We raise up in degrees whom We will; surely thy Lord is All-wise, All-knowing.
And We gave to him Isaac and Jacob -- each one We guided, And Noah We guided before; and of his seed (dhurriyyatihi) David and Solomon, Job and Joseph, Moses and Aaron -- even so We recompense the good-doers -- Zachariah and John, Isa and Elias; each was of the righteous; Ishmael and Elisha, Jonah and Lot - each one We preferred above all beings; and of their fathers, and of their seed (wadhurriyytihim), and of their brethren (wa-ikh'wnihim); and We elected them, and We guided them to a straight path." Surah 683-87"And We gave Moses the Book, and made it a guidance to the Children of Israel 'Take not unto yourselves any guardian apart from Me.' The seed (dhurriyyata) of those We bore with Noah; he was a thankful servant." Surah 172-3
"These are they whom God has blessed among the Prophets of the seed (dhurriyyati) of Adam, and of those We bore with Noah, and of the seed (dhurriyyati) of Abraham and Israel, and of those We guided and chose. When the signs of the All-merciful were recited to them, they fell down prostrate, weeping." Surah 1958
"And We sent Noah, and Abraham, and We appointed the Prophecy and the Book to be among their seed (dhurriyyatihim and some of them are guided, and many of them are ungodly." Surah 5726
Let us see your proof that Lot is an descendant of Abraham - offspring from his loins.
"And there is a sect of them twist their tongues with the Book, that you may suppose it part of the Book, yet it is not part of the Book; and they say, 'It is from God,' yet it is not from God, and they speak falsehood against God, and that wittingly." Surah 378
Peace.
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Just for my understanding I want to reconfirm about the comments on Al Safa and Al Marwa. Are we saying that besides Al Safa and Al Marwa (located near Ka'aba in Makkah) there is another Al Safa and Al Marwa located in Jerusalem.
Regarding Jerusalem, please can someone comment on the following post in one of the threads on this forum
QuoteAnyone has any thought on this verse?
10.025
Wa Allahu yadAAoo ila dari alssalami wayahdee man yashao ila siratin mustaqeem.
And / but Allah call to the Home of Peace (Dari al-Salami) He guide whom He pleaseth to a way that is straight.Does "Home Of Peace" = "Dari al-Salami" = "Yerushaliyem" = "Jerusalem"?
UnqouteI hope you all bear with me and my comments as I am new to all these discussions and usually ask about things that are commonly known to people here but are great source of learning for me.
Thanks
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Just for my understanding I want to reconfirm about the comments on Al Safa and Al Marwa. Are we saying that besides Al Safa and Al Marwa (located near Ka'aba in Makkah) there is another Al Safa and Al Marwa located in Jerusalem.
I do not believe Safa and Marwa are located in Jerusalem. You will have to ask Layth for her proof, as I do not believe as she believes.
QuoteAnyone has any thought on this verse?
10.025
Wa Allahu yadAAoo ila dari alssalami wayahdee man yashao ila siratin mustaqeem.
And / but Allah call to the Home of Peace (Dari al-Salami) He guide whom He pleaseth to a way that is straight.Continue reading.
"And God summons to the Abode of Peace, and He guides whomsoever He will to to a straight path; the good-doers the reward most fair and a surplus; neither dust nor abasement shall overspread their faces. Those are the inhabitants of Paradise, therein dwelling immortal." Surah 1025-26
The Abode of Peace is Paradise.
Peace.
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Dear Raging,
I do not believe Safa and Marwa are located in Jerusalem. You will have to ask Layth for her proof, as I do not believe as she believes.
Never knew I came across online as a "she"!
Layth / = Lion (Arabic masculine).
For someone who quotes a lot of Arabic verses and speaks about the meanings of Arabic words...You should have picked that up
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Salam Patanahi,
Just for my understanding I want to reconfirm about the comments on Al Safa and Al Marwa. Are we saying that besides Al Safa and Al Marwa (located near Ka'aba in Makkah) there is another Al Safa and Al Marwa located in Jerusalem.
Not exactly. What is being said is that there are only one Safa & Marwa, but that these are located in Baka at the Masjid Haram (as the Quran states) - and that Baka is Jerusalem.
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Dear Raging,
Never knew I came across online as a "she"!
Layth / = Lion (Arabic masculine).
For someone who quotes a lot of Arabic verses and speaks about the meanings of Arabic words...You should have picked that up
Apologies, brother. I stand corrected on your gender. -[
However, if you have something to bring to bear as proof for what you believe - from the Quran - I am sure we are all waiting to see it.
Peace.
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Not exactly. What is being said is that there are only one Safa & Marwa, but that these are located in Baka at the Masjid Haram (as the Quran states) - and that Baka is Jerusalem.
Where does the Quran state Masjid Al-Haram is in Jerusalem? If the Quran states this, then bring your proof that the Quran states this.
It is easy to prove Jerusalem contains Masjid Al-Aqsa, the Temple of the Bani Israel that was destroyed twice for the disobedience of the Yahudians.
?Glory be to Him, who carried His servant by night from the Holy Mosque to the Further Mosque the precincts of which We have blessed, that We might show him some of Our signs. He is the All-hearing, the All-seeing.? Surah 171Al-Aqsa Mosque is named here in the Quran, as shown in the Arabic
?Subhana allathee asra biAAabdihi laylan mina almasjidi alharami ila almasjidi alaqsa allathee barakna hawlahu linuriyahu min ayatina innahu huwa alssameeAAu albaseeru? Surah 171Where is Masjid Al-Aqsa located today? In Jerusalem.
Let?s continue reading, for we see that Allah makes mention of Moses (pbuh)
?And We gave Moses the Book, and made it a guidance to the Children of Israel 'Take not unto yourselves any guardian apart from Me.'
The seed of those We bore with Noah; he was a thankful servant.? Surah 172-3So the Bani Israel have guidance given to them through Moses (pbuh).
?And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Book 'You shall do corruption in the earth twice, and you shall ascend exceeding high.'
So, when the promise of the first of these came to pass, We sent against you servants of Ours, men of great might, and they went through the habitations, and it was a promise performed.
Then We gave back to you the turn to prevail over them, and We succoured you with wealth and children, and We made you a greater host.
'If you do good, it is your own souls you do good to, and if you do evil it is to them likewise.' Then, when the promise of the second came to pass, We sent against you Our servants to discountenance you, and to enter the Temple (almasjida), as they entered it the first time, and to destroy utterly that which they ascended to." Surah 174-7It is easy to prove Masjid Al-Haram is in a valley and not on a mount.
""Our Lord, I have made some of my seed (dhurriyyatī to dwell in a valley (biwadin) where is no sown land by Thy Holy House (baytika almuharrami); Our Lord, let them perform the prayer, and make hearts of men yearn towards them, and provide them with fruits; haply they will be thankful." Surah 1437
It is easy to prove Masjid Al-Haram has provision brought to it, and is a place of security.
?They say, 'Should we follow the guidance with thee, we shall be snatched from our land.' Have We not established for them a sanctuary secure, to which are collected the fruits of everything, as a provision from Us? But most of them know not.? Surah 2857
What provision is brought to Jerusalem to be fed to the poor and well fed, as the Quran instructs? None. No sacrifices occur there at all.
Yet every year sacrifices are made at Masjid Al-Haram in Mecca, and the bounty sent to the poor.
Allah is clear the Kaaba is the place of sacrifice/donation Surah 595-97, 2233Are you saying Ge'ullim called 'Baka' in parenthesis is Bakka in the Quran. Is this your claim?
http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/jerusalem_93.jpgThis map is your proof, Layth? Where is your proof from the Quran, Layth?
Layth / = Lion (Arabic masculine).
For someone who quotes a lot of Arabic verses and speaks about the meanings of Arabic words...You should have picked that up
"Farrat min qaswaratin" Surah 7451
"fleeing -- before a lion (qaswaratin)?" Surah 7451Now I understand why I did not make a connection with 'Lion' and 'Layth'.
I study the Quran. I have no idea what you are studying for your guidance.The Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
http//www.searchgodsword.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=03919
Laish = "lion" n pr m- father of Phaltiel, the man to whom king Saul gave his daughter Michal in marriage even though she was already married to David n pr loc
- an early name for Dan, a town in northern Israel
- a place north of Jerusalem; site unknown
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_of_Judah
Lion of Judah and Judaism
"The lion of Judah on the coat of arms of Jerusalemhttp//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Jerusalem-coat-of-arms.svg
Within Judaism, the Biblical Judah (in Hebrew Yehuda) is the original name of the Tribe of Judah - traditionally symbolized by a lion. In Genesis, the patriarch Jacob ("Israel" refers to his son Judah as a Gur Aryeh , a "Young Lion" (Genesis 499) when blessing him. In Jewish naming tradition the Hebrew name and the substitute name are often combined as a pair, as in this case."
Why are you are striving to bring people to the ways of the Yahudians - the Jews - and to a Temple on a mount that was destroyed twice, where no provision is brought to it, in a territory that is not secure?
"God took compact (meethaqa)with the Children of Israel; and We raised up from among them twelve chieftains. And God said, 'I am with you. Surely, if you perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and believe in My Messengers and succour them, and lend to God a good loan, I will acquit you of your evil deeds, and I will admit you to gardens underneath which rivers flow. So whosoever of you thereafter disbelieves, surely he has gone astray from the right way. "
So for their breaking their compact (meethaqahum) We cursed them and made their hearts hard, they perverting words from their meanings; and they have forgotten a portion of that they were reminded of; and thou wilt never cease to light upon some act of treachery on their part, except a few of them. Yet pardon them, and forgive; surely God loves the good-doers." Surah 513"Or did those in whose hearts is sickness think that God would not bring to light their rancour? Did We will, We would show them to thee, then thou wouldst know them by their mark; and thou shalt certainly know them in the twisting of their speech; and God knows your deeds." Surah 4729-30
Bring your proof.
Explanation is not proof.All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all beings. All Mighty, All Knowing, Seer.
He does not make mistakes, nor does He forget. Surah 482, 2052Peace.
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The Quran says Bakka is the place the pilgrimage and not Mecca. Bakka is in Jerusalem. It has existed in Jerusalem for thousands of years. Moreover Abraham most likely lived near Jerusalem and it was the place where he was about to sacrifice his son. Why else do you think the Jews built Jerusalem in the area where it is now???
396 The first house established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds
397 In it are clear signs the place of Abraham. Whoever enters it will be secure. Pilgrimage to the sanctuary is a duty from God for the people who can afford a means to it. Whoever rejects, and then God has no need of the worlds.In addition there is not a single verse in the Quran that states that Mecca is where the sacred masjid resided. Also there is tons of evidence that show that the city of Mecca didn?t even exist prior to the 400 AD. How can a city of great religious importance not have one single record of its existence prior to 400 AD??? If Mecca existed before Jerusalem (as the ?muslim scholars who fabricate nonsense would like you to believe? )Why isn?t there no record of Mecca???
In adition why are arguing about the proofs from the Quran and bringing up futile wikilinks about Lions of Judah??? What does that have to do with any of the ayats in the Quran???
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peace KDC501,
The Quran says Bakka is the place the pilgrimage
No it does not.
In addition there is not a single verse in the Quran that states that Mecca is where the sacred masjid resided.
Correct. Just like there is not a single verse in the Quran that states "al hajj to/ila X".
Your translation of 396-97 can be improved to better reflect the possibilities in Arabic, e.g.
396 Indeed, the first house/BYT set-down/placed for mankind was the one with/in/by/at bakka* blessed and a guidance for the beings.
397 In it clear/manifest signs/evidences, the station/status of Abraham, and whoever entered it was securing. And to/for God upon mankind (is) al/the hajj/symposium (at/of) the house/BYT, whoever is able to make a way to it. And whoever conceals/rejects, then truly The God has no need of the beings.*Classical Arabic meanings can include "distinguishing/ranking above others".
