Is Jerusalem the Qibla?
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History, our surrondings, our intellect and multitude of factors make us the individuals we are and influence the judgements we make.
Intellect is good. Ditch the rest.
THEN WERE ALL THE MUSLIMS EITHER
(a) COMPLETELY PAGANISTIC DRIVEN AND ONLY TOO GLAD TO GO BACK TO THEIR PAGAN DAYS
(b) WERE SO COMPLETELY IGNORANT OR STUPID THAT NO ONE AMONGST THEM REALSIED THIS HUGE CORRUPTION THAT WAS INTRODUCED IN THEIR FAITHWhat does it matter what "all the muslims" do, when you have a Criterion that is completely independent of any acts of "all the muslims"? (And you still don't want to get accused of having been influenced by the majority !!)
Why don't you set your agenda right? If you take Quran as the only source of religious law, you should not worry about what or what not happened in the past.
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Dear Layth
Correct! However 12 pages of this thread, and countless other discussions it seems there is a lack of agreement as to what the Quran has to say on the subject.
Peace and blessings be upon you,
I don't want you to think I am striving to guide anyone or make people believe me. I am only showing the Moderators/Owners of this website/forum why I do not believe as they believe, striving to expose the teachings they uphold that are contrary to the Quran, and in the process increasing my iman - by using the Quran to prove their assertions incorrect. We are only responsible for ourselves, and our only obligation is to remind. That's it.
I am doing this for me. Those who come behind who are truly guided by Allah will check out both sides and turn to Allah for guidance and explanation. As any Muslim will do.
I will echo the comment to not worry about what anyone else is doing. Focus on what you are doing and what you uphold, so that you do not find yourself among the losers on the Day of Judgment.
"Say 'Shall We tell you who will be the greatest losers in their works?
Those whose striving goes astray in the present life, while they think that they are working good deeds.
Those are they that disbelieve in the signs of their Lord and the encounter with Him; their works have failed, and on the Day of Resurrection We shall not assign to them any weight.
That is their recompense -- Gehenna for that they were unbelievers and took My signs and My messengers in mockery." Surah 18103-106There are people who believe they are rightly guided, but they follow teachings Allah did not reveal. They will be the greatest losers because they associate partners to Him. Their deeds won't even be weighed.
Allah finishes Surah 18 with a very clear statement
"Say. 'If the sea were ink for the Words of my Lord, the sea would be spent before the Words of my Lord are spent, though We brought replenishment the like of it.'
Say 'I am only a mortal the like of you; it is revealed to me that your God is One God. So let him, who hopes for the encounter with his Lord, work righteousness, and not associate with his Lord's service anyone." Surah 18109-110The Quran contains an explanation of all things. I am not a doubter.
Peace.
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Intellect is good. Ditch the rest.
I wish I was like you, unfortunately I am burned with all the usual human failings of emotion, attatchment, pride, jealousy can etc. I even get exited by 22 men dressed in shorts who kick a round ball about. I even get upset at people dying, same those with much better intellect than me, yet I know it is the only certainty in life. As you can see I have huge amount to ditch. ( (
SalWhat does it matter what "all the muslims" do, when you have a Criterion that is completely independent of any acts of "all the muslims"? (And you still don't want to get accused of having been influenced by the majority !!)
Sorry I dont think you have any idea of the point I am trying to make. I have never suggested follow majority/minority or anybody. The issue under discussion is where Qibla is? In case you have not realised there are two views on this thread. Both have gone in circles, using the Quran, to justify their position. Since the view on this forum by Layth and his followers is that it is in Jerusaelm and I am not aware of this view being espoused before. Therefore logically it must follow that at a partcular point in history this must have occured which completely changed every muslim/non muslims perception of Qibla being in Jerusaelm. Please explain to me what it is you don't understand about the above.
Why don't you set your agenda right? If you take Quran as the only source of religious law, you should not worry about what or what not happened in the past.
Hmmmm! it might have escaped your notice that there is little disagreement here on what the Quran says about where the Qibla is. Unfortunately I am not in possession in the truthmeter that many here possess to enable me to agree with them that it is in Jerusaelm. As using the Quran I am struggling with this position. I am trying to find out when Historically people like me were led up the Garden (obviously not heavenly) path
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Salaam raginaggijjin
Peace and blessings be upon you,
I don't want you to think I am striving to guide anyone or make people believe me. I am only showing the Moderators/Owners of this website/forum why I do not believe as they believe, striving to expose the teachings they uphold that are contrary to the Quran, and in the process increasing my iman - by using the Quran to prove their assertions incorrect. We are only responsible for ourselves, and our only obligation is to remind. That's it.
I am doing this for me. Those who come behind who are truly guided by Allah will check out both sides and turn to Allah for guidance and explanation. As any Muslim will do.
I will echo the comment to not worry about what anyone else is doing. Focus on what you are doing and what you uphold, so that you do not find yourself among the losers on the Day of Judgment.
No I did not think th atat all. Agree we are all responsible for our own actions. I try my best not to make it as an issue that i am right you are wrong, but I am sure as a human I regularly slip up and my ego gets the better of me. I also feel that if I disagree with something which I feel is misrepresenting the Quran then I have to try to respond. Only God knows the truth. I can only go as far my human limitations allow me.
Regards
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I try my best not to make it as an issue that i am right you are wrong, but I am sure as a human I regularly slip up and my ego gets the better of me. I also feel that if I disagree with something which I feel is misrepresenting the Quran then I have to try to respond. Only God knows the truth. I can only go as far my human limitations allow me.
Peace and blessings be upon you and yours,
You are in like company. )
The words of caution are for me as well. May Allah guide us to a right better than this.Peace and blessings.
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Salaam
You are in like company.
The words of caution are for me as well. May Allah guide us to a right better than this.Makes me feel lot more comfortable. No matter how much I try being in the company of 1self (in terms of opinions) is a very lonely place (there my emotional hang ups again). Mind you better be careful if any more and will be accused of just following the majority ;D ;D
Regards
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Since the view on this forum by Layth and his followers is that it is in Jerusaelm and I am not aware of this view being espoused before.
You probably have been used to sunni/shia concepts of personality cults, imams, and leaders... is that the reason you are depicting this forum as some propaganda of "Layth and his followers" ?? Actually, most people here take Quran as their point of departure. If you are not aware of this view being espoused before, it does not give you a right to be sarcastic and arrogant towards the writers and members of this forum. You are being fixated on the idea of "all muslims", and it is your own fault. Here is a lesson for you
Or do you think that most of them hear or understand? They are just like cattle. No, they are worse off.
We have come to you with the truth, but most of you hate the truth.Confusions, and emotions are a part of a human's life, but what good is a Muslim who does not strive to transcend these illusions ?
Peace.
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AOA
You probably have been used to sunni/shia concepts of personality cults, imams, and leaders... is that the reason you are depicting this forum as some propaganda of "Layth and his followers" ??
Thank you for telling me what I am used to. i can undestand why you think i depicting this forum as some propaganda. I think is the word followers. Which i assure you is genuine mistake and I meant to write & those who agree with him.
Since the view on this forum by Layth and his followers is that it is in Jerusaelm and I am not aware of this view being espoused before
As you can I was rreferring to this particular issue and not to this forum as whole ( however I accept it was inappropriate) . Besides I was not aware that everyone on this forum agrees with Layth on everything. It might come as a shock to you I am also a memebr of this forum.
Actually, most people here take Quran as their point of departure. If you are not aware of this view being espoused before, it does not give you a right to be sarcastic and arrogant towards the writers and members of this forum. You are being fixated on the idea of "all muslims", and it is your own fault. Here is a lesson for you
I was not being arrogant but responding directly to each point raised ( perhaps you should read them again and you might just spot that you perhaps were being wee little patronising- glass houses stones etc come to mind). No doubt i will learn my lesson but perhaps you need to also learn a lesson and that is to learn to read. Perhaps you can go back and explain how i am fixated with "all muslims". If I am then I suppose it is my fault!
As for the Quran being point of departure ( I think I know what you mean) . As for my departure ponnit you can reach your own conclusion aby reading some of my old posts (not many but quite old).
I would gently request that if you cannot respond directly to the points I have raised then we should terminate this discussion and I wish you a goodbye and genuine apology if I have offended you.Regards
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If you are complacent about accepting the influence of history, surroundings, and a multitude of other factors on your judgment, do you really expect to get your confusion clarified? When has that ever happened? One needs to have an "erased slate" in order to Understand, because Revelation is too pure to have ever manifested on dirty slates. Why don't you compound your judgment with Quran alone, and abandon the influence of history, surroundings and whatever other factors you feel influenced by ?? Faith is half nihilism, remember.
End of argument.
Peace. -
AOA
If you are complacent about accepting the influence of history, surroundings, and a multitude of other factors on your judgment, do you really expect to get your confusion clarified? When has that ever happened? One needs to have an "erased slate" in order to Understand, because Revelation is too pure to have ever manifested on dirty slates. Why don't you compound your judgment with Quran alone, and abandon the influence of history, surroundings and whatever other factors you feel influenced by ?? Faith is half nihilism, remember.
End of argument.
Peace.It is obvious from the above you have no idea to the point i am trying to make. There was never any argument. Agree end of our dialogue as I genuinely feel there was no discussion. As perhaps, mybe my fault for poor articulation, we seem to discussing different issues to each other and fast going nowhere.
regards
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Quran talks about using one's intelligence. Using this criteria do you not think there would be some historical evidence that this event occured somewhere in the history in of approx last 1500yrs.
Your whole flawed argument is based on some obsecure archaelogical evidence which only you appear to have interperted in a particular manner.
As as I am not an archaeclogist (& have no idea as to your expertise in this area) it is difficult for me to discuss the arcaecological evidence with you. However anyone with the very limited understanding of research will explain that even the well established principles in any given field can often be interperted in a contradictory manner. Yet you seem to want turn the entire Islamic history on its head by few flimsy archaelogical statements which even with my limited knowldge sound as credible as a second hand car salesman. As for it being Quranic evidence the discussions on this thread have been more than sufficent to debunk this myth (if the evidence presented here is viewed with an open mind and objectively)And there is the same problem with the sacred months.
Peace.
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Two nights ago I started reading the book " The Natural Republic ". I read in one the chapters that the Qibla is not Mecca but Jerusalem. At first I was a bit skeptical however after reading a few additional articles I'm starting to think that indeed Jerusalem has to be the Qibla. I was a Christian. And i read the Bible. So far to my knowledge none of the prophets, Jews or Christians could have gone to Mecca for pilgrimage. The Bible places ALOT of emphasis on Jerusalem as the place of pilgrimage. Also the Quran did say in Sura 396 The first house established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds.
I always thought that the word Bakka was an old word for the city of Mecca however to my astonishment there is a place called Bakka in Jerusalem! Another issue that bothered me was why was Prophet Mohammad so preoccupied with fighting the Byzantium army unless it was of great importance??? And if the Kaaba in Mecca was the original Qibla why is it according to Islamic History that Muhammad prayed in the direction of Jerusalem during the period the Quran was being revealed. The writers of this book make very strong arguments to support the theory that Jerusalem (where the dome of the rock is situated ) is the focal point. I'm beginning to think so to. Does anyone have any comments on this particular topic ?Hello, sounds Very Very interesting.
Pleaz, what is "qibla" and in which "language" ?
I heard about that to, that at th? "beginning", "prayers" was turned to jeru-salem !
What is that book, talking about this ??
Peace on th? Earth and above ours "heads"
Sorry what is Bakka ??? -
The foolish from amongst the people will say "What has turned them away from the qiblah that they were on?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."
Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west...
Sorry ?
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Salam,
You are thinking of AbdulMalik Bin Marwan, who was the 5th Ummayed Khalifa.
AbdulMalik is credited with spending a fortune on the improvement of the the Dome of the Rock - including covering the Dome in gold paper. At the same time, he sent an army against the shrine in Mecca, ultimately destroying the walls of the Kaaba with catapaults.
Hello,
Why, bd mlk, "want ed" jeru-salem !?
5th khalifa, means what calendar ??
Why Would h? want to " destroy" th? kaaba la ???
Peace on Earth & above ours "heads" -
Salaam
Just one question How can Jerusalem be ?the city of peace? when its history is full of wars and violence?
Simpls
Hello,
Where start th? "history" you talking about !?
Do you know th? history of violence and blood on Earth since ... Long Time !!?
Why do you say, "city of Peace" !??
Dont worry, jeru - salem could not be "qibla" ... If so, we Will, maybe wrong for long !!!
Peace & Truth on Earth and above ours "heads" -
Salam,
Because the "peace" comes from man, not God. The shrine is meant to be a sanctuary, but if people decide they will fight there, then nothing can stop that
?And kill them wherever you encounter them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you at it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the recompense of the rejecters.? (Qur?an 2191)
Hello,
What this "verse" it is "talking" about .. Could you "Translate" it, for me, Pleaz ...
Peace & Truth on Earth & above ours "heads" -
Salaam,
I don't agree with this understanding. AlQuraan states
397
397 In it are clear signs the station of Abraham. And whoever enters it will be secure. And Allah is owed from the people to make Pilgrimage to the Sanctuary, whoever can make a path to it. And whoever rejects, then Allah has no need of the worlds."Whoever" includes all, mumins, muslims, kafir, mushriks, munafiq, etc. as Hajj is for all "AlNaas". So, peace for all, nobody will fight there.
Aayat quoted above 2191 is about "AlMasjid AlHaraam" not about "Bakka" nor "AlBayt". Interestingly, everybody has to make pilgrimage to "AlBayt", but "Mushrikeens" are not allowed to come near "AlMasjid AlHaraam" 928
928
928 O you who believe, the polytheists are impure, so let them not approach the Restricted Temple after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then Allah will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. Allah is Knowledgeable, Wise.May Allah guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. KhanHello "wize" man,
Could you "help" me !
What is or are;
Mu'min
Mu'slim
Kafir,
Mu'shrik
Mu'nafiq
& which "pilgrimage" exist at that Time !?
Sorry for all those "questions", but you "sounds" full of "science" for me,
And i ne ed to "understand" i "GO" m'y "way".
Peace & Truth on Earth & above ours "heads"