Is Jerusalem the Qibla?

stillearning

Salaam

You are in like company.
The words of caution are for me as well. May Allah guide us to a right better than this.

Makes me feel lot more comfortable. No matter how much I try being in the company of 1self (in terms of opinions) is a very lonely place (there my emotional hang ups again). Mind you better be careful if any more and will be accused of just following the majority ;D ;D

Regards

Ilyusha

Since the view on this forum by Layth and his followers is that it is in Jerusaelm and I am not aware of this view being espoused before.

You probably have been used to sunni/shia concepts of personality cults, imams, and leaders... is that the reason you are depicting this forum as some propaganda of "Layth and his followers" ?? Actually, most people here take Quran as their point of departure. If you are not aware of this view being espoused before, it does not give you a right to be sarcastic and arrogant towards the writers and members of this forum. You are being fixated on the idea of "all muslims", and it is your own fault. Here is a lesson for you

Or do you think that most of them hear or understand? They are just like cattle. No, they are worse off.
We have come to you with the truth, but most of you hate the truth.

Confusions, and emotions are a part of a human's life, but what good is a Muslim who does not strive to transcend these illusions ?

Peace.

stillearning

AOA

You probably have been used to sunni/shia concepts of personality cults, imams, and leaders... is that the reason you are depicting this forum as some propaganda of "Layth and his followers" ??

Thank you for telling me what I am used to. i can undestand why you think i depicting this forum as some propaganda. I think is the word followers. Which i assure you is genuine mistake and I meant to write & those who agree with him.

Since the view on this forum by Layth and his followers is that it is in Jerusaelm and I am not aware of this view being espoused before

As you can I was rreferring to this particular issue and not to this forum as whole ( however I accept it was inappropriate) . Besides I was not aware that everyone on this forum agrees with Layth on everything. It might come as a shock to you I am also a memebr of this forum.

Actually, most people here take Quran as their point of departure. If you are not aware of this view being espoused before, it does not give you a right to be sarcastic and arrogant towards the writers and members of this forum. You are being fixated on the idea of "all muslims", and it is your own fault. Here is a lesson for you

I was not being arrogant but responding directly to each point raised ( perhaps you should read them again and you might just spot that you perhaps were being wee little patronising- glass houses stones etc come to mind). No doubt i will learn my lesson but perhaps you need to also learn a lesson and that is to learn to read. Perhaps you can go back and explain how i am fixated with "all muslims". If I am then I suppose it is my fault!
As for the Quran being point of departure ( I think I know what you mean) . As for my departure ponnit you can reach your own conclusion aby reading some of my old posts (not many but quite old).
I would gently request that if you cannot respond directly to the points I have raised then we should terminate this discussion and I wish you a goodbye and genuine apology if I have offended you.

Regards

Ilyusha

If you are complacent about accepting the influence of history, surroundings, and a multitude of other factors on your judgment, do you really expect to get your confusion clarified? When has that ever happened? One needs to have an "erased slate" in order to Understand, because Revelation is too pure to have ever manifested on dirty slates. Why don't you compound your judgment with Quran alone, and abandon the influence of history, surroundings and whatever other factors you feel influenced by ?? Faith is half nihilism, remember.

End of argument.
Peace.

stillearning

AOA

If you are complacent about accepting the influence of history, surroundings, and a multitude of other factors on your judgment, do you really expect to get your confusion clarified? When has that ever happened? One needs to have an "erased slate" in order to Understand, because Revelation is too pure to have ever manifested on dirty slates. Why don't you compound your judgment with Quran alone, and abandon the influence of history, surroundings and whatever other factors you feel influenced by ?? Faith is half nihilism, remember.

End of argument.
Peace.

It is obvious from the above you have no idea to the point i am trying to make. There was never any argument. Agree end of our dialogue as I genuinely feel there was no discussion. As perhaps, mybe my fault for poor articulation, we seem to discussing different issues to each other and fast going nowhere.

regards

zakeer

so do you think that there is a city called bakka in jerusalem ....if it's there then there has to be "AL BAYT"...

MesMorial

Quran talks about using one's intelligence. Using this criteria do you not think there would be some historical evidence that this event occured somewhere in the history in of approx last 1500yrs.

Your whole flawed argument is based on some obsecure archaelogical evidence which only you appear to have interperted in a particular manner.
As as I am not an archaeclogist (& have no idea as to your expertise in this area) it is difficult for me to discuss the arcaecological evidence with you. However anyone with the very limited understanding of research will explain that even the well established principles in any given field can often be interperted in a contradictory manner. Yet you seem to want turn the entire Islamic history on its head by few flimsy archaelogical statements which even with my limited knowldge sound as credible as a second hand car salesman. As for it being Quranic evidence the discussions on this thread have been more than sufficent to debunk this myth (if the evidence presented here is viewed with an open mind and objectively)

And there is the same problem with the sacred months.

Peace.

MesMorial

I currently see no reason to dispute that the Prophet was not expelled from Mecca, so I am interested in looking at the implications for the modern hadith-collections.

jaimesss

Two nights ago I started reading the book " The Natural Republic ". I read in one the chapters that the Qibla is not Mecca but Jerusalem. At first I was a bit skeptical however after reading a few additional articles I'm starting to think that indeed Jerusalem has to be the Qibla. I was a Christian. And i read the Bible. So far to my knowledge none of the prophets, Jews or Christians could have gone to Mecca for pilgrimage. The Bible places ALOT of emphasis on Jerusalem as the place of pilgrimage. Also the Quran did say in Sura 396 The first house established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds.
I always thought that the word Bakka was an old word for the city of Mecca however to my astonishment there is a place called Bakka in Jerusalem! Another issue that bothered me was why was Prophet Mohammad so preoccupied with fighting the Byzantium army unless it was of great importance??? And if the Kaaba in Mecca was the original Qibla why is it according to Islamic History that Muhammad prayed in the direction of Jerusalem during the period the Quran was being revealed. The writers of this book make very strong arguments to support the theory that Jerusalem (where the dome of the rock is situated ) is the focal point. I'm beginning to think so to. Does anyone have any comments on this particular topic ?

Hello, sounds Very Very interesting.
Pleaz, what is "qibla" and in which "language" ?
I heard about that to, that at th? "beginning", "prayers" was turned to jeru-salem !
What is that book, talking about this ??
Peace on th? Earth and above ours "heads"
Sorry what is Bakka ???

jaimesss

The foolish from amongst the people will say "What has turned them away from the qiblah that they were on?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."

Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west...

Sorry ?

jaimesss

Salam,

I agree with your post. Jerusalem is indeed the Qibla.

Real l'y,
Could you Pleaz, explain it, to me !?
Peace on th? Earth and above ours "heads"

jaimesss

Salam,

You are thinking of AbdulMalik Bin Marwan, who was the 5th Ummayed Khalifa.

AbdulMalik is credited with spending a fortune on the improvement of the the Dome of the Rock - including covering the Dome in gold paper. At the same time, he sent an army against the shrine in Mecca, ultimately destroying the walls of the Kaaba with catapaults.

Hello,
Why, bd mlk, "want ed" jeru-salem !?
5th khalifa, means what calendar ??
Why Would h? want to " destroy" th? kaaba la ???
Peace on Earth & above ours "heads"

jaimesss

Salaam

Just one question How can Jerusalem be ?the city of peace? when its history is full of wars and violence?

Simpls

Hello,
Where start th? "history" you talking about !?
Do you know th? history of violence and blood on Earth since ... Long Time !!?
Why do you say, "city of Peace" !??
Dont worry, jeru - salem could not be "qibla" ... If so, we Will, maybe wrong for long !!!
Peace & Truth on Earth and above ours "heads"

jaimesss

Salam,

Because the "peace" comes from man, not God. The shrine is meant to be a sanctuary, but if people decide they will fight there, then nothing can stop that

?And kill them wherever you encounter them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you at it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the recompense of the rejecters.? (Qur?an 2191)

Hello,
What this "verse" it is "talking" about .. Could you "Translate" it, for me, Pleaz ...
Peace & Truth on Earth & above ours "heads"

jaimesss

Salaam,

I don't agree with this understanding. AlQuraan states

397
397 In it are clear signs the station of Abraham. And whoever enters it will be secure. And Allah is owed from the people to make Pilgrimage to the Sanctuary, whoever can make a path to it. And whoever rejects, then Allah has no need of the worlds.

"Whoever" includes all, mumins, muslims, kafir, mushriks, munafiq, etc. as Hajj is for all "AlNaas". So, peace for all, nobody will fight there.

Aayat quoted above 2191 is about "AlMasjid AlHaraam" not about "Bakka" nor "AlBayt". Interestingly, everybody has to make pilgrimage to "AlBayt", but "Mushrikeens" are not allowed to come near "AlMasjid AlHaraam" 928

928
928 O you who believe, the polytheists are impure, so let them not approach the Restricted Temple after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then Allah will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. Allah is Knowledgeable, Wise.

May Allah guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

Hello "wize" man,
Could you "help" me !
What is or are;
Mu'min
Mu'slim
Kafir,
Mu'shrik
Mu'nafiq
& which "pilgrimage" exist at that Time !?
Sorry for all those "questions", but you "sounds" full of "science" for me,
And i ne ed to "understand" i "GO" m'y "way".
Peace & Truth on Earth & above ours "heads"

jaimesss

peace all,

In addition to what Bro mmkhan has said

2125 And when We made the BYT a place of return/filling/reward for mankind and a security...

People can fight at any physical place/location. No location is 100% secure. Can one prove God wrong by simply fighting at such a location or even destroying such a thing? Ponder.

Does HJJ = pilgrimage?
2196 ...then whoever enjoyed in the visit TO the pilgrimage..." ?
etc.

?And kill them wherever you encounter them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them AAinda al masjid al haram unless they fight you fihi; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the recompense of the rejecters.? (Qur?an 2191)

Ayn-Nun-Dal / AAinda = Preposition here, with, by, at the point of, about, from, in the presence of. The word denotes the idea of nearness, whether it be actual in the sense of possession or ideational, it also denotes a sense of rank or dignity or opinion, time and place.

fihi = in/at/on it

)

Just some things to ponder over.

Hello,
"who" had to expel "those" "who" had expel ed !!!
Sorry, it became "dark" for me... Could you "help" ?
Peace & Truth on Earth & above ours "heads"

jaimesss

Today I read a short summary based on a book written by a Canadian Historian named Dan Gibson who has claimed to have spent many years studying the history of the Arabian peninsular.
Here?s the link

www.searchformecca.com/Mecca Question.pdf

In the his book ?Quranic geography? he claims that the city of Petra is the REAL historical Mecca and that the Mecca of today is the not the city in which Prophet Muhammad came from. I have read the summary of what the book has and I do intend on purchasing the book very soon. Here?s the link http//www.indipress.ca/feature.html

Now he does not say that Jerusalem is the Qibla instead it says that Petra is where the original qibla is situated. In any case archaeological evidence along with clear verses in the Quran (sura 3-96-97) tend to prove that Jerusalem is indeed the correct Qibla since it has been recorded as a major sight of pilgrimage.

?When the old mosque was torn down, the foundation stones of the earlier mosque
revealed that the original building faced north towards both Petra and Jerusalem
which were in almost exactly the same direction. Gibson believes that this
is the origin of the claim that the first qibla faced Jerusalem.? ( The Old Mosque mentioned here is the Mosque of the Two Qiblas. )

Also the verses sura 396 ? 97 along with historical and archaeological evidence shows that the original Qibla has to be Jerusalem. Even though he (Mr.Gibson) doesn?t make the claim that Jerusalem is the Real Holy City of Islam he does believe that the rulers back in the day did a lot of ?covering up? and changes in Islam during the periods when they ruled the Islamic world. This is my view explains the perception that I had for a while now that after Muhammad?s death all hell broke loose! What I mean by this is that the Nabataeans who were originally pagans started to evolve the original religion/practices of Islam , and started changing a whole bunch of things in Islam. You can say a sort of blending of religions took place. Myths and superstitions dealing with the Black Stone, revolving around the Kaaba , the kissing of the Black stone all of which are pagan practices of the Nabataean people.

http//wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Pagan_Origins_of_Islam
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petra
http//www.kinghussein.gov.jo/his_nabateans.html (A brief history of the Nabataeans )

Note This is exactly the same thing that happened to Christianity. A lot of the Christian practices of today are of Greek and Roman origin.

My conclusions In light of my intense study over the past couple of days I have come to the conclusion that Jerusalem is the Qibla and the correct place of Pilgrimage and not Mecca. This is due to the fact that the Quran says in Sura 396 ? 97 396

?The first house established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds.
In it are clear signs the place of Abraham. Whoever enters it will be secure. Pilgrimage to the sanctuary is a duty from God for the people who can afford a means to it. Whoever rejects, and then God has no need of the worlds.?

Facts to remember

Bakka is located in Jerusalem.
The earliest mosques built faced Jerusalem and not Mecca
Jerusalem is a city recognized by the Jews and the Christians as a place of pilgrimage for hundreds of years
It also explains why Muhammad was preoccupied fighting

Could not be "Right" ... Pleaz find ? "better" "explanation" sir !
Peace & Truth on Earth & above ours "heads"

jaimesss