WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...
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PEACE RAHILA
NOT an angel. You are also "INFERING" your conclusion from verse 1649.
And when We said to the angels Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the jinn, so he transgressed the commandment of his Lord. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust.
No, I'm not inferring anything nor am I using 1649-50 exclusively to prove that. My comclusive proof is 1850, where Allah says that Iblis was of the Jinn, beings, created from a scorching wind/fire. To assume that, Iblis is of the malaika creation is to then conjecture that the malaika, are also created of a scorching wind. As Allah, does not give the basic composition of the malaika, it is forbidden for us to conjecture as to their actual basic nature.
In 711 , ALLAH orders the Malaika to prostrate to Adam ( AH) and when Iblis refuses, ALLAh asks Iblis , "What prevented you that you didnt prostrate when I commanded YOU?" 712... This seems pretty decisive to me. ALLAH orders the Malaika to prostrate, then ALLAH specifically mentions that HE commanded Iblis to prostate and that why didnt IBLIS obey the command given earlier ( which was given to HIM).
It really cannot get any simpler and Coherent than that.
Sorry, but your explanation here is not definitive.
Lets summarize the debate
- ALLAH orders the Malaika to prostrate , IBLIS doesnt.. 234, 711, 1850
Allah, has not defined Iblis as a malaika at this point, it is only an assumption.
- ALLAH specifically asks Iblis why didnt you obey when I commanded YOU? 712
Again, Allah, has not defined Iblis as a malaika at this point, it is only an assumption.
- ALLAH states that Iblis was arrogant and of the Kafiroon. 234
Allah, nows gives two definitive characteristics of Iblis...arrogant and kafir. Allah, has not given a definitive characteristic of the malaika yet.
- ALLah states that all Malaika and Daabatin "SUBMIT" to ALLAH and are not "Arrogant" and they do what they are commanded to do. 1649, 1650
Allah, now gives a two definitive characteristics of the dabbatin and the malaika...they obey Allah and are not proud.
- ALLAH states some of the Daabatin are Kafiroon 855
Now, here's where you problem of contradiction begins. If the dabbatin only obey Allah and and are not proud then, how can they also be disbelievers? Disbelievers disobey and are proud, that is, are dissatisfied with the truth.
- ALLAH states that some Humans and Jinn are Kafiroon and Arrogant. Numerous verses
Given that, human/jinn humans are disobedient, arrogant, and disbelieve, they CANNOT be the SAME dabbatin as mentioned in 1649-50 OR a huge contradiction ensues. Please re-read what I wrote to Idol, which clears up this situation
IDOL "are humans dabbatin" ?
PREIST BOK MEI Yes and no. Yes, we are of the dabbatan, in that, we too are moving creatures, if the ayat is translated to mean moving creatures, however, humans show pride and we disobey. The dabbatan in the above ayats do neither, hence, no, we are not dabbatan in that sense.
PREIST BOK MEI Rahila, take a moment and think about what you are saying here. If you conclude the dabbatan, as mentioned in ayats 1649-50, include humans, well, then you set up a huge contradiction
I agree BUT 1649 clearly states that WHATEVER is on the earth of the DAABATIN submits to ALLAH. There is no exception in 1649 .
Your reply that the Daabatin of 1649 do not include humans and the Daabatin of 855 includes human is contradictory , not complimentary at all and it is based on INFERENCE.
Well, if there is no exception, then how do you explain the behavior of Jinn and men, because they disobey and show pride?
1649 And whatever creature that is in the heavens and that is in the earth makes obeisance to Allah (only), and the angels (too) and they do not show pride.
1650 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.
Rahila, just think for a moment...how can Allah say in one breath that..."whatever is on the earth of the dabbatin obeys ALLAH and doesn't show pride and then in the next breath describe some dabbatin as, disbelivers, disobediant, prideful? Certainly, you can see the obvious problem with your position; it is major contradiction. You cannot have it both ways.
So, how do you explain this contradiction with a decisive verse?
Anyway, consider the following
Certainly, dabbatan can choose to, for example, attack or not attack, eat or not eat , drink or not drink, however, they do not make MORAL choices and that is the key. If dabbatan could make moral choices, then, some of them must be evil. Are you saying that some of the dabbatan i.e. zebras, snails, lobsters, ameobas, cockroaches etc., are evil and or can choose to behave in an evil manner ? Is this really your position, Rahila? If the dabbatan could make moral choices, then, Allah, would have had to have sent messengers to the dabbatan in order for them to correct their behavior as He did with humankind. Has Allah, mentioned any messengers being sent to the dabbatan or malaika...I can't seem to find any such ayat...perhaps you know of one?
You have no case, Rahila.
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Peace be upon you Rahila,
There comes a time when we should turn away. Ihope you do not get caught up in this as long as I have been. The brother does not wish to see the clear truth.
Priest said
I'm curious...exactly what did she do that you didn't?Leave you alone with your contradictions.
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PEACE IDOL
There comes a time when we should turn away. I hope you do not get caught up in this as long as I have been. The brother does not wish to see the clear truth. Leave you alone with your contradictions.
I only hope that, if someone whom you trust and respect, comes to you and explains to you my position and you grasp it then, that you will have the honor to come here and admit your error. I will do the same.
Peace-
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Peace P.Bokmei / All
If the dabbatin only obey Allah and and are not proud then, how can they also be disbelievers? Disbelievers disobey and are proud, that is, are dissatisfied with the truth.
Do you deny 855 then..? Which clearly states that some Daabatin ARE Kafiroon.
You also do not have a case..
If Daabatin do not inlude animals and animals cannot make moral choices then how come some of them are Kafiroon. A contradiction arises with 855.
And if Daabatin do include humans, then Humans do disobey ALLAH. so again a contradiction with 1649.
This is a no win situation..
The problem
All Daabatin submit to ALLAH, they are not arrogant and they follow ALLAH's orders but still some of them are Kafiroon.
I believe the key is accepting all verses and not ignoring 855 as you did. There must be some thing that the Daabatin do ( while still submitting to ALLAH, not being arrogant , carrying out ALLAH's commands) which renders them Kafiroon.
Quote
- ALLAH orders the Malaika to prostrate , IBLIS doesnt.. 234, 711, 1850
Allah, has not defined Iblis as a malaika at this point, it is only an assumption.
Quote
2. ALLAH specifically asks Iblis why didnt you obey when I commanded YOU? 712Again, Allah, has not defined Iblis as a malaika at this point, it is only an assumption
I would call it Logical deduction rather than assumption. ALLAH orders malaika to prostrate in 711 and when IBLIS refuses, ALLAH asks IBLIS why didnt you obey me when I commanded YOU in 712.
What is decisive here? That IBLIS WAS among the Malaika ordered to prostrate as the Malaika were the only one who were given the order to prostrate. IBLIS was also a JINN. No where in the Quraan , it is stated that being a JINN and a Malaika is mutually exclusive.
In response to your earlier questions, You do not seem to realize what a lot of people have said is that they believe that Malaika is not a species like a human and Jinn , but Malaika is a Designation like a Mu'min. For a Mu'min is a Human being or Jinn who has Iman.. And they are of different species ( now like Dhulqarnain , you may be beleive that the Jinn are also homo sapien sapiens) since one is made of clay and one from smokeless flame ( from a decisive verse)
No, I'm not inferring anything nor am I using 1649-50 exclusively to prove that. My comclusive proof is 1850, where Allah says that Iblis was of the Jinn, beings, created from a scorching wind/fire. To assume that, Iblis is of the malaika creation is to then conjecture that the malaika, are also created of a scorching wind. As Allah, does not give the basic composition of the malaika, it is forbidden for us to conjecture as to their actual basic nature.
It is forbidden for us to conjecture about the composition of Malaika but it is allowed to conjecture about whether Daabatin can or cannot make moral choices? Not a very consistent approach.
No one is actually building up a case here about whether Iblis was or was not an Angel . What I see here in this thread is that most of the people are pointing out the irony in your arguments that while you accuse other people of conjecturing , you are basing your own arguments on nothing but conjecture..
Example..
Animals cannot make moral choices
.. Not backed up by any decisive verse so it is an assumption too.You also cannot have it both ways.
Idolfree wrote
Peace be upon you Rahila,
There comes a time when we should turn away. Ihope you do not get caught up in this as long as I have been. The brother does not wish to see the clear truth.
I agree.. As I stated earlier that whether Iblis was or was not an angel is not high on my list of priorities. So, unless any body brings up any new verses that are relevant, there is no point in continuing to take this argument furthur.
One thing to think about
Humans in their ego think that they should have all the answers but the fact is that we dont because the knowledge that we were given was very little.
366
Behold! you are they who disputed about that of which you had knowledge; why then do you dispute about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows while you do not know.1785
And they ask you about Ar-Rooh. Say The Rooh is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little.May ALLAH increase us all in Knowledge...
my regards to you ,Priest Bokmei . Although, your arguments failed to prove that Iblis was not an angel, it did provide me with food for thought for other things.
Rahila
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PEACE RAHILA
Do you deny 855 then..? Which clearly states that some Daabatin ARE Kafiroon.
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O.k., tell me then, and if you answer with yes, prove it. Can the following things be kafirs
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a centipede
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an earthworm
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a tapeworm
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an ameoba
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a ladybug
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Can anything being of the animal kingdom, excluding the human being, be a kafir? If yes, please give one example in the history of the earth where this has happened.
If Daabatin do not inlude animals and animals cannot make moral choices then how come some of them are Kafiroon. A contradiction arises with 855.
I'm not saying that the animals are not included as dabbatin, of course they are where did you get that from? The animals are dabbatin, however, of the non-human dabbatin, as with the maliaka, DO NOT MAKE MORAL DECISIONS, hence, 1649-50, is referring to non-human dabbatin.
And if Daabatin do include humans, then Humans do disobey ALLAH. so again a contradiction with 1649.
If you and Idol, would but stop defending your pride and fear of losing this debate, you will see that, at 1649-50, Allah, is distinguishing between the human dabbatin, the animal which shows pride and disobeys, from the animals which, by their very created natures, have no pride nor have the capacity to disobey. If they had pride and could disobey, thus being able to make a moral decision, then, Allah, would have had to have sent them messengers to guide them away from evil. Do you have any ayat where Allah sends messengers to the dabbatin...yes or no? Given that, dabbatin do not disobey or show pride, then, obviously, they have absolutely no need of messenger. What is so difficult about thes concepts?
On the contrary, it is a win win situation..
The problem All Daabatin submit to ALLAH, they are not arrogant and they follow ALLAH's orders but still some of them are Kafiroon.
I believe the key is accepting all verses and not ignoring 855 as you did. There must be some thing that the Daabatin do ( while still submitting to ALLAH, not being arrogant , carrying out ALLAH's commands) which renders them Kafiroon.
Well, what is that "something" then? Do you see, Rahila, you don't know what you are talking about and are only conjecturing and guessing. As I said, if you would but get past your pride and fear of losing this debate, then, the answer to your above question, clearly manifest itself, that is, while the dabbatin include humans the dabbatin mentioned at 1649-50, is only referring to the non-human dabbatin. Ayat 855, then, is referring to the human dabbatin! Nothing else makes any sense.
RAHILA 1. ALLAH orders the Malaika to prostrate , IBLIS doesnt.. 234, 711, 1850
PREIST Allah, has not defined Iblis as a malaika at this point, it is only an assumption.
RAHILA 2. ALLAH specifically asks Iblis why didnt you obey when I commanded YOU? 712
PREIST Again, Allah, has not defined Iblis as a malaika at this point, it is only an assumption
I would call it Logical deduction rather than assumption
.There isn't anything wrong with logical deduction, however, logically, it appears as if the sunrises in the east and sets in the west, but is that true? Logical deduction is only as good as it factual inputs.
ALLAH orders malaika to prostrate in 711 and when IBLIS refuses, ALLAH asks IBLIS why didnt you obey me when I commanded YOU in 712.
What is decisive here? That IBLIS WAS among the Malaika ordered to prostrate as the Malaika were the only one who were given the order to prostrate. IBLIS was also a JINN.
This is what you wrote the other day
"You are ignoring the verses 234 , 1850 which clearly imply the Iblis was among the Malaika ordered to prostate to Adam ".
Just so that you know, "clearly imply", is an oxymoron.
Main Entry OXYMORON a combination of contradictory or incongruous words (as cruel kindness); broadly something (as a concept) that is made up of contradictory or incongruous elements.
Anyway
Main Entry EXPLICIT fully revealed or expressed without vagueness, implication, or ambiguity leaving no question as to meaning or intent unambiguous in expression.
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Do you see in ayat 234 or 712 or any other ayat for that matter, where Allah EXPLICITLY defines/labels Iblis as a malaika? YES or NO?
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Do you find any ayat where Allah, EXPLICITLY, defines/labels Iblis as a Jinn? YES or NO?
No where in the Quraan , it is stated that being a JINN and a Malaika is mutually exclusive.
Well, now, once again, you are extrapolating
Main Entry EXTRAPOLATE to project, extend, or expand (known data or experience) into an area not known or experienced so as to arrive at a usually conjectural knowledge of the unknown area.
Main Entry CONJECTURE supposition inference from defective or presumptive evidence b a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork.
Allah, in 1850, clearly/explicitly defines Iblis, as a Jinn. Nowhere, does Allah, clearly/explicitly, define/label Iblis, as a malaika. Am I correct here, yes or no?
You see, this is your fear. Once you admit that the dabbatin mentioned in ayay 1649-50, are non-human dabbatin, then, your must relinquish your hold on Iblis as being one of the malaika. Why?, because Allah says of both the dabbatin and the malaika, hence, they are grouped together in two respects
A. they do not disobey Allah.
B. they show no pride.
Once you accept that, then, Iblis...cannot be a malaika...but a human.
There is no refuting this...none. To continue to not accept the arguement which I have put forth, Rahila, will only take you further and further into the realms of extrapolation and conjecture of which Allah forbids us to do.
In response to your earlier questions, You do not seem to realize what a lot of people have said is that they believe that Malaika is not a species like a human and Jinn , but Malaika is a Designation like a Mu'min. For a Mu'min is a Human being or Jinn who has Iman.. And they are of different species ( now like Dhulqarnain , you may be beleive that the Jinn are also homo sapien sapiens) since one is made of clay and one from smokeless flame ( from a decisive verse)
People can say what they want, however, 1649-50 makes it very clear that, the dabbatin and malaika, are definite distinct creations from humans or homo sapien sapiens.
It is forbidden for us to conjecture about the composition of Malaika but it is allowed to conjecture about whether Daabatin can or cannot make moral choices? Not a very consistent approach.
There is no conjecture as to whether the non-human dabbatin can make a moral choice or not...they cannot. Now, if I'm incorrect, then please give an example of such a thing happening in the annals of recorded history.
No one is actually building up a case here about whether Iblis was or was not an Angel . What I see here in this thread is that most of the people are pointing out the irony in your arguments that while you accuse other people of conjecturing , you are basing your own arguments on nothing but conjecture..
Yeah, right, please. There is no irony in my arguements. It is pride and fear which makes some...deluded in regard to my positions.
Example.. Quote Animals cannot make moral choices .. Not backed up by any decisive verse so it is an assumption too. You also cannot have it both ways.
With a little comprehension and use of your Allah given intellect, ayats 1649-50, completely dispell any notion that animals can make a moral choice, meaning, they, by their very created natures, cannot not disobey Allah nor do they instinctually possess the faculty of pride. If they did, in fact, possess these abilities, then, Allah would have had to have sent them messengers with good news and warnings in order to guide them as He did with the human dabbatin. Has Allah done this in regard to the non-human dabbatin, yes or no? Can you comprehend this "small" detail, Rahila?
my regards to you ,Priest Bokmei . Although, your arguments failed to prove that Iblis was not an angel, it did provide me with food for thought for other things.
On the contrary, Rahila, my arguements have certainly convinced you...it is just a matter of your pride now in regaed to admitting it.
Peace to you.
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Peace all,
After studying and reasoning with, all the verses of the Quran pertaining to angels, spirits, jinns, humans, creatures, souls, etc., my understanding that Iblis (satan) couldn't have possibly been an angel. He was of the jinn. Other than the ones already mentioned in previous posts above, a few of the several verses I support based on RK's interpretations are
Recall that your Lord said to the angels, "I am placing a representative (a temporary god) on Earth." They said, "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we (the angels) sing Your praises, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" He said, "I know what you do not know."
Your Lord said to the angels, "I am creating a human being from aged mud, like the potter's clay. "Once I perfect him, and blow into him from My spirit, you shall fall prostrate before him." The angels fell prostrate; all of them.
He sends down the angels with the revelations, carrying His commands?
GOD chooses from among the angels messengers, as well as from among the people. GOD is Hearer, Seer.
Your Lord said to the angels, "I am creating a human being from clay. "Once I design him, and blow into him from My spirit, you shall fall prostrate before him." The angels fell prostrate, all of them.
?Guarding it are stern and powerful angels who never disobey GOD; they do whatever they are commanded to do.
Ofcourse, there are inumerous other verses that support my understanding. Besides, no where in the Quran do we find that Iblis was an angel but we do find that he was of the jinn (self explanatory).
Point to ponder in majority of the verses, jinns and humans are mentioned alongside.
GOD BLESS.
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PEACE DANISH
Besides, no where in the Quran do we find that Iblis was an angel but we do find that he was of the jinn (self explanatory).
You'd think so...wouldn't you?
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peace Danish,
Peace all,
After studying and reasoning with, all the verses of the Quran pertaining to angels, spirits, jinns, humans, creatures, souls, etc., my understanding that Iblis (satan) couldn't have possibly been an angel. He was of the jinn. Other than the ones already mentioned in previous posts above, a few of the several verses I support based on RK's interpretations are
Recall that your Lord said to the angels, "I am placing a representative (a temporary god) on Earth." They said, "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we (the angels) sing Your praises, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" He said, "I know what you do not know."
Your Lord said to the angels, "I am creating a human being from aged mud, like the potter's clay. "Once I perfect him, and blow into him from My spirit, you shall fall prostrate before him." The angels fell prostrate; all of them.
He sends down the angels with the revelations, carrying His commands?
GOD chooses from among the angels messengers, as well as from among the people. GOD is Hearer, Seer.
Your Lord said to the angels, "I am creating a human being from clay. "Once I design him, and blow into him from My spirit, you shall fall prostrate before him." The angels fell prostrate, all of them.
?Guarding it are stern and powerful angels who never disobey GOD; they do whatever they are commanded to do.
Ofcourse, there are inumerous other verses that support my understanding. Besides, no where in the Quran do we find that Iblis was an angel but we do find that he was of the jinn (self explanatory).
Point to ponder in majority of the verses, jinns and humans are mentioned alongside.
GOD BLESS.
good verses, at first I supported Dhul and Bokmei's position, then I was kind of leaning over to the other side as the debate went on, now I'm in full support of the fact that iblis was not a malaika, nice job Danish
peace
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Peace Danish all,
Peace all,
Your Lord said to the angels, "I am creating a human being from aged mud, like the potter's clay. "Once I perfect him, and blow into him from My spirit, you shall fall prostrate before him." The angels fell prostrate; all of them.
Besides, no where in the Quran do we find that Iblis was an angel but we do find that he was of the jinn (self explanatory).
I think you forgot to quote the verset 1531 immediately after 1528-29-30
Chapter 15
28. And your Lord said to the Angels ?I am creating a human from a hardened clay.?
29. ?So when I perfect him, and blow of My spirit in him, you shall submit to him.?
30. Thus, all of the Angels submitted.
31. Except for Satan, he refused to be with those who submitted.-
And We said to the Angels ?Submit to Adam,? so they submitted except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
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And We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the Angels ?Submit to Adam;? so they submitted except for Satan, he was not of those who submitted.
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And We said to the Angels ?Submit to Adam.? So they submitted except for Satan, he said ?Shall I submit to one you have created from mud!?
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And We said to the Angels ?Submit to Adam.? They all submitted except for Satan, he refused.
In the light of the these verses, all the angels prostrate to Adam except one Iblis who refused to prostrate to Adam.
No where in the quran do we find that Iblis alone is asked by Allah to prostrate to Adam or Iblis and Angels were asked by Allah to prostrate to Adam.
Allah knows best
Marie
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PEACE MARIE, IDOL, RAHILA
1527 And the jinn We created before, of intensely hot fire.
1528 And when your Lord said to the angels Surely I am going to create a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape.
1529 So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down making obeisance to him.
1530 So the angels made obeisance, ALL of them together,
1531 But Iblis (did it not); he refused to be with those who made obeisance.
1649 And whatever creature that is in the heavens and that is in the earth makes obeisance to Allah (only), and the angels (too) and they do not show pride.
1650 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.
1850 And when We said to the angels Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the jinn, so he transgressed the commandment of his Lord. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust.
Ayat 1527 reinforces ayat 1850, in that, both define Iblis as of the Jinn. Ayat 1530, makes it clear that ALL of the angels obeyed and it is reinforced by ayat 1649-50. All, it appears to me, cannot be followed up with an "except", because that is contradictory, all means all, hence, in contrast, Sura 103, Allah, says of man that "he is in loss" and then follows it up with "except", however, Allah did not say..."all of man except".
1031 I swear by the time,
1032 Most surely man is in loss,
1033 Except those who believe and do good, and enjoin on each other truth, and enjoin on each other patience.
One can only conclude from ayats 1528-31 that, Iblis knew that just as the angels were required to obey Adam that, he, a Jinn human being...was required to obey as well.
Marie, I posted a message, a little lengthy I admit, to Rahila on Sep 23, 2004 709 am. If you do not mind, I would be interested in your response to my questions/assertions, thanks.
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Peace be upon you Marie,
Thank you for following that up with the clarifying evidence of the God.
I will take the God's explanation over the "self explanatory" any day. D
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Peace be upon you Marie,
I will take the God's explanation over the "self explanatory" any day.Kyle, the "self explanatory" comes from the verses itself which I quoted above (GOD's evidence). So to say that you'll take God's explanation over God's verses (self explanatroy), is thoughtless. shock
Besides, no where in the Quran do we find that Iblis was an angel but we do find that he was of the jinn (self explanatory).
If the statement above is untrue, then prove it. No need to "jump" or become sarcastic. lol
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Peace all,
No doubt the Angels were commanded to prostrate to Adam and they all did, simply becuase they DO NOT DISOBEY and DO WHATEVER THEY ARE COMMANDED TO DO BY GOD ALMIGHTY, PERIOD. There were/are other spirits/jinns in the heavens besides angels, one of which was Iblis, who WAS OF THE JINN AS PER THE QURAN ("GOD'S EVIDENCE"), hence thrown down on earth.
The exception to the verses that Marie quoted earlier doen't necessarily imply that Iblis was an angel, nor its explicitly mentioned anywhere in the Quran. BUT the Quran is clear and explicit on who Iblis was. He was of the jinn (not an angel), as per 1850.
If I was in a jungle wherein all animals resided and commanded the lions to submit to a frog, which they all did, and here comes a ladybug disobeying my command, thus banishing the ladybug out of the jungle, simply means that The lions were commanded to submit to the frog. All of them did except the ladybug, she was of an insect, doesn't make the ladybug a lion. This is how I understand and reason with the complexity of all the veses put together pertaining to who Iblis was, given the FACT that he was a jinn.
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Peace All,
In a debate from another forum, we were discussing the nature of angels. One particular ayah stood out as important to that topic, and this one as well...
4130 But, behold, as for those who say, "Our Lord is Allah," and then remain steadfastly upright ? upon them descend angels, saying, "Fear not, and grieve not, but hear good news of the Paradise that you are promised.
Now I wonder how many people have truly believed "Our Lord is Allah" and remained steadfastly upright. And I wonder how many of those heard the voices of angels.
I say none.
I think what is being implied here is the true nature of angels, or atleast one facet of this truth. They are dimensions of the human psyche, ie, emotions. So a person who truly believes "Our Lord is Allah" and remains steadfastly upright will not grieve. He will find peace. He will know through experience that he is on the path of righteousness. He "hears" the good news of Paradise through the flurry of great emotions one feels when he is in harmony with the universe.
Iblis, on the other hand, is pride/ego/rebellious desire, many names for the same disposition. Fiery in temperment and rebellious in nature.
These are all aspects of the human psyche. Notice we hear no mention of Iblis existing prior to the existence of man. Iblis was "designed" to be the consequence of free will.
My point all this splitting of hairs over whether or not Iblis was/is an angel is completely irrelevant to our development. The origin of the energy does not matter. The effect is what matters.
Another example
812 This is how your Lord inspired the angels, ?I am with you. So make the believers stand firm. ..
How can angels make the believers stand firm, if not through conviction, determination, faith?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace all,
I think the word ?jinn? in the context of 1850 is misunderstood
I find the translation of Ahmad Shabir more adequate
1850 Recall when We told the angels, ?Bow yourselves before Adam!? They all bowed except Iblis. He was of the hidden selfish desires (jinn) that drifted away from his Lord's Command. Will you still befriend him and his comrades? What a miserable exchange do the wrongdoers make for the right guidance! (230-38? illa ibleesa kanamina aljinni ? translated traditionally as ?except for Satan he was of the Jinn?
This word ?jinn? is not a race in the same way than
?alkafireena? in 3874
?almushrikeena? in 395,
?alghaweena? in 7175,
?alddalleena? in 2686
?alqaniteena? in 66 12In 1850, the translation of ?kanamina? as ?he was? is incorrect. Personally, I translate it as ?He became of?? in the same way in 3874
Iblis/satan disobeyed the order of his Lord because he became of?.
This verse explains itself.-
Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters
Illa ibleesa istakbara wa kanamina alkafireena -
Say ?God bears truth. Follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of those who set up partners.?
Qul sadaqa Allahu faittabiAAoomillata ibraheema haneefan wama kanamina almushrikeena -
And recite to them the story of the person whom Our revelations were given to him, but he removed himself from them, and thus the devil followed him, and He became of those who went astray.
Waotlu AAalayhim nabaa allatheeataynahu ayatina fainsalakhaminha faatbaAAahu alshshaytanu fakanamina alghaweena -
?And forgive my father, for he was of those misguided.?
Waighfir li-abee innahu kanamina alddalleena -
Also Mary, the daughter of Imran, who maintained her chastity. So We blew into her from Our spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures; and she was of those who were obedient.
Wamaryama ibnata AAimrana allatee ahsanatfarjaha fanafakhna feehi min roohinawasaddaqat bikalimati rabbiha wakutubihi wakanatmina alqaniteena
Hope that helps
Marie
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Peace be upon you Danish,
If I was in a jungle wherein all animals resided and commanded the lions to submit to a frog, which they all did, and here comes a ladybug disobeying my command, thus banishing the ladybug out of the jungle, simply means that The lions were commanded to submit to the frog. All of them did except the ladybug, she was of an insect, doesn't make the ladybug a lion. This is how I understand and reason with the complexity of all the veses put together pertaining to who Iblis was, given the FACT that he was a jinn.
But how did the ladybug disobey your command? You were commanding the Lions, not the ladybug? That would have been very unfair and unjust of you.
Imagine you are at work, and your boss comes to your desk and says "YOU'RE FIRED!!!!" You get a schocked look on your face "But WHY?"
Your Boss says, "Because you did not empty the trash when everyone left the building". You respond, "but that is not my job, you told the cleaning crew to do that". Your Boss replies, "but you rwere present when I commanded them to empty the trash, so you should have known I was commanding you too".How foolish does that sound?
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Peace be upon you Tay,
I think what is being implied here is the true nature of angels, or atleast one facet of this truth. They are dimensions of the human psyche, ie, emotions. So a person who truly believes "Our Lord is Allah" and remains steadfastly upright will not grieve. He will find peace. He will know through experience that he is on the path of righteousness. He "hears" the good news of Paradise through the flurry of great emotions one feels when he is in harmony with the universe.
Exactly.
My point all this splitting of hairs over whether or not Iblis was/is an angel is completely irrelevant to our development. The origin of the energy does not matter. The effect is what matters.
I disagree that it is irrelevant, because we have to combat falsehood. The idea that "jinn" is some creature is detrimental to our brothers and sisters. You would be suprised at how many people actually sit back and observe the THOUGHT process and how emotions are used as ENERGY (Energy in motion/ E-motion) to bring thoughts into reality.
These symbolic stories are suppossed to teach us that, but others are not understanding the basics of this story, so it is the job of those who now not to conceal the truth. But I do feel that enough evidence has been listed on this thread, so I think we should be nearing the end of this debate.
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The idea that "jinn" is some creature is detrimental to our brothers and sisters.
JINNS
Yet, they set up besides GOD idols from among the jinns, though He is the One who created them. They even attribute to Him sons and daughters, without any knowledge. Be He glorified. He is the Most High, far above their claims.
We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
The day will come when He summons all of them (and says) "O you jinns, you have claimed multitudes of humans." Their human companions will say, "Our Lord, we enjoyed each others' company until we wasted the life span You had set for us." He will say, "Hell is your destiny." They abide therein forever, in accordance with GOD's will. Your Lord is Wise, Omniscient.
O you jinns and humans, did you not receive messengers from among you, who narrated to you My revelations, and warned you about the meeting of this day? They will say, "We bear witness against ourselves." They were totally preoccupied with the worldly life, and they will bear witness against themselves that they were disbelievers.
He will say, "Enter with the previous communities of jinns and humans into Hell." Every time a group enters, they will curse their ancestral group. Once they are all in it, the latest one will say of the previous one, "Our Lord, these are the ones who misled us. Give them double the retribution of Hell." He will say, "Each receives double, but you do not know."
We have committed to Hell multitudes of jinns and humans. They have minds with which they do not understand, eyes with which they do not see, and ears with which they do not hear. They are like animals; no, they are far worse - they are totally unaware.
Only those blessed with mercy from your Lord (will not dispute the truth). This is why He created them. The judgment of your Lord has already been issued "I will fill Hell with jinns and humans, all together."
As for the jinns, we created them, before that, from blazing fire.
Say, "If all the humans and all the jinns banded together in order to produce a Quran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another."
We said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Satan. He became a jinn, for he disobeyed the order of His Lord. Will you choose him and his descendants as lords instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? What a miserable substitute!
Mobilized in the service of Solomon were his obedient soldiers of jinns and humans, as well as the birds; all at his disposal.
One afrit from the jinns said, "I can bring it to you before you stand up. I am powerful enough to do this."
Had we willed, we could have given every soul its guidance, but it is already predetermined that I will fill Hell with jinns and humans, all together.
To Solomon we committed the wind at his disposal, traveling one month coming and one month going. And we caused a spring of oil to gush out for him. Also, the jinns worked for him, by his Lord's leave. Any one of them who disregarded our commands, we subjected him to a severe retribution.
Clearly, the jinns have the power to disobey but the angels cannot. Since Iblis was a jinn, he disobeyed GOD and turned arrogant by not submitting to GOD?s new creation (human).When the appointed time for his death came, they had no clue that he had died. It was not until one of the animals tried to eat his staff, and he fell down, that the jinns realized that he was dead. They thus realized that if they really knew the unseen, they would have stopped working so hard as soon as he died.
They will answer, "Be You glorified. You are our Lord and Master, not them. Instead, they were worshiping the jinns; most of them were believers therein."
They even invented a special relationship between Him and the jinns. The jinns themselves know that they are subservient.
We assign to them companions who adorn everything they do in their eyes. Thus, they end up incurring the same fate as the previous communities of jinns and humans, who were also losers.
Those who disbelieved will say, "Our Lord, show us those among the two kinds - jinns and humans - who misled us, so we can trample them under our feet, and render them the lowliest."
Such are the ones stamped as disbelievers among every generation of jinns and humans; they are losers.
Recall that we directed a number of jinns to you, in order to let them hear the Quran. When they got there, they said, "Listen." As soon as it was over, they rushed to their people, warning.
I did not create the jinns and the humans except to worship Me alone.
(O humans and jinns,) which of your Lord's marvels can you deny?
And created the jinns from blazing fire.
We will call you to account, O humans and jinns.
O you jinns and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the earth, go ahead and penetrate. You cannot penetrate without authorization.
On that day, no human, nor a jinn, will be asked about his sins.
For those who reverence the majesty of their Lord, two gardens (one for the jinns and one for the humans).
Their beautiful mates were never touched by any human or jinn.
Below them are two gardens (one for the jinns and one for the humans).
No human ever touched them, nor a jinn.
Say, "I was inspired that a group of jinns listened, then said, `We have heard a wonderful Quran.
" `We thought that neither the humans, nor the jinns, could possibly utter lies about GOD.
" `Human beings used to seek power through jinn beings, but they only afflicted them with a lot of adversity.
"Be they of the jinns, or the people."
After reading studying and understanding thoroughly all the above verses in conjuntion with others, it is absolutely clear as daylight that Jinns are nothing else but creatures/beings. It is a mockery of GOD's Book (Al-Quran) to think otherwise.
On the same lines, Muhammad is a name/title given to a person just like Musa and Esa are (titles), Quran is a name given to GOD's Book just like Torah and Injeel are (titles), Islam is a name (a title) given to GOD'S System, Muslim is a name (a title) given to humans who believe in Islam and so on, all based on contextual clear undersstanding. It is plain stupidity to address someone by their name's (title's) meanings.
ONE THING IS FOR SURE EMOTIONS ARE NOT CREATURES, JINNS ARE.
Insha-Allah, I will get back on some of the previous issues (replies), such as that on 'ladybug' and 'Iblis being or not being an angel'.
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Peace Marie,
I think the word ?jinn? in the context of 1850 is misunderstood
I find the translation of Ahmad Shabir more adequate
1850 Recall when We told the angels, ?Bow yourselves before Adam!? They all bowed except Iblis. He was of the hidden selfish desires (jinn) that drifted away from his Lord's Command. Will you still befriend him and his comrades? What a miserable exchange do the wrongdoers make for the right guidance! (230-3If you find Ahmad Shabir's translation more adequate, then better believe the above in bold underlined. Iblis never became, but was, a jinn, as per the above.
In 1850, the translation of ?kanamina? as ?he was? is incorrect. Personally, I translate it as ?He became of?? in the same way in 3874
You found that Ahmed Shabir was more adequate??? What happened above? Why change from "he was" to "he became".
Iblis/satan disobeyed the order of his Lord because he became of?.
This verse explains itself.Not to me and neither to you since you are not sure of yourself in the first place (see below).
- Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters
Illa ibleesa istakbara wa kanamina alkafireena
"kanamina" translates into "became one of".
- Say ?God bears truth. Follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of those who set up partners.?
Qul sadaqa Allahu faittabiAAoomillata ibraheema haneefan wama kanamina almushrikeena
In the above verse, "kanamina" translates into "he was not of".
- And recite to them the story of the person whom Our revelations were given to him, but he removed himself from them, and thus the devil followed him, and He became of those who went astray.
Waotlu AAalayhim nabaa allatheeataynahu ayatina fainsalakhaminha faatbaAAahu alshshaytanu fakanamina alghaweena
Here, "kanamina" translates into "he became of".
- ?And forgive my father, for he was of those misguided.?
Waighfir li-abee innahu kanamina alddalleena
"kanamina" is translated as "he was" in the above verse.
- Also Mary, the daughter of Imran, who maintained her chastity. So We blew into her from Our spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures; and she was of those who were obedient.
Wamaryama ibnata AAimrana allatee ahsanatfarjaha fanafakhna feehi min roohinawasaddaqat bikalimati rabbiha wakutubihi wakanatmina alqaniteena
"kanatmina" is translated as "she was of".
Hope that helps.
Sorry to say, not a bit, very confusing. Why the discrepancies? Can you make up your mind or are you trying to prove your point without a point? (No offense intended, just a question).
Thanks and GOD bless.
- Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters
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Peace Danish,
If I'm not wrong, the difference between our reasonings, you consider jinn as a race and not me.
Independently if "kanamina" in 1850 means "he became of" or "he was of", the two meanings are possible.
In the light of the context of 1850, I prefer "he became" than "he was" because I consider "Iblis/satan disobeyed the order of his Lord" is a consequence of "kanamina aljinn / he became of the jinn".In the following verses, "except for Satan" does not mark the end of the sentence, the blue sentences are supplementary and explain themself mutually.
so they submitted except for Satan; he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters. (234)
so they submitted except for Satan; he was not of those who submitted.(711)
Thus, all of the Angels submitted,(1530) except for Satan; he refused to be with those who submitted. (1531)
So they submitted except for Satan; he said ?Shall I submit to one you have created from mud!?(1761)
So they all submitted except for Satan; he was of the "jinn", so he disobeyed the order of his Lord(1850)
They all submitted except for Satan; he refused.(20116)
The Angels submitted, all of them, (3873)except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters.(3874)
Allah knows best
Marie