WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...
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Peace all,
After studying and reasoning with, all the verses of the Quran pertaining to angels, spirits, jinns, humans, creatures, souls, etc., my understanding that Iblis (satan) couldn't have possibly been an angel. He was of the jinn. Other than the ones already mentioned in previous posts above, a few of the several verses I support based on RK's interpretations are
Recall that your Lord said to the angels, "I am placing a representative (a temporary god) on Earth." They said, "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we (the angels) sing Your praises, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" He said, "I know what you do not know."
Your Lord said to the angels, "I am creating a human being from aged mud, like the potter's clay. "Once I perfect him, and blow into him from My spirit, you shall fall prostrate before him." The angels fell prostrate; all of them.
He sends down the angels with the revelations, carrying His commands?
GOD chooses from among the angels messengers, as well as from among the people. GOD is Hearer, Seer.
Your Lord said to the angels, "I am creating a human being from clay. "Once I design him, and blow into him from My spirit, you shall fall prostrate before him." The angels fell prostrate, all of them.
?Guarding it are stern and powerful angels who never disobey GOD; they do whatever they are commanded to do.
Ofcourse, there are inumerous other verses that support my understanding. Besides, no where in the Quran do we find that Iblis was an angel but we do find that he was of the jinn (self explanatory).
Point to ponder in majority of the verses, jinns and humans are mentioned alongside.
GOD BLESS.
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PEACE DANISH
Besides, no where in the Quran do we find that Iblis was an angel but we do find that he was of the jinn (self explanatory).
You'd think so...wouldn't you?
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peace Danish,
Peace all,
After studying and reasoning with, all the verses of the Quran pertaining to angels, spirits, jinns, humans, creatures, souls, etc., my understanding that Iblis (satan) couldn't have possibly been an angel. He was of the jinn. Other than the ones already mentioned in previous posts above, a few of the several verses I support based on RK's interpretations are
Recall that your Lord said to the angels, "I am placing a representative (a temporary god) on Earth." They said, "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we (the angels) sing Your praises, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" He said, "I know what you do not know."
Your Lord said to the angels, "I am creating a human being from aged mud, like the potter's clay. "Once I perfect him, and blow into him from My spirit, you shall fall prostrate before him." The angels fell prostrate; all of them.
He sends down the angels with the revelations, carrying His commands?
GOD chooses from among the angels messengers, as well as from among the people. GOD is Hearer, Seer.
Your Lord said to the angels, "I am creating a human being from clay. "Once I design him, and blow into him from My spirit, you shall fall prostrate before him." The angels fell prostrate, all of them.
?Guarding it are stern and powerful angels who never disobey GOD; they do whatever they are commanded to do.
Ofcourse, there are inumerous other verses that support my understanding. Besides, no where in the Quran do we find that Iblis was an angel but we do find that he was of the jinn (self explanatory).
Point to ponder in majority of the verses, jinns and humans are mentioned alongside.
GOD BLESS.
good verses, at first I supported Dhul and Bokmei's position, then I was kind of leaning over to the other side as the debate went on, now I'm in full support of the fact that iblis was not a malaika, nice job Danish
peace
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Peace Danish all,
Peace all,
Your Lord said to the angels, "I am creating a human being from aged mud, like the potter's clay. "Once I perfect him, and blow into him from My spirit, you shall fall prostrate before him." The angels fell prostrate; all of them.
Besides, no where in the Quran do we find that Iblis was an angel but we do find that he was of the jinn (self explanatory).
I think you forgot to quote the verset 1531 immediately after 1528-29-30
Chapter 15
28. And your Lord said to the Angels ?I am creating a human from a hardened clay.?
29. ?So when I perfect him, and blow of My spirit in him, you shall submit to him.?
30. Thus, all of the Angels submitted.
31. Except for Satan, he refused to be with those who submitted.-
And We said to the Angels ?Submit to Adam,? so they submitted except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
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And We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the Angels ?Submit to Adam;? so they submitted except for Satan, he was not of those who submitted.
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And We said to the Angels ?Submit to Adam.? So they submitted except for Satan, he said ?Shall I submit to one you have created from mud!?
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And We said to the Angels ?Submit to Adam.? They all submitted except for Satan, he refused.
In the light of the these verses, all the angels prostrate to Adam except one Iblis who refused to prostrate to Adam.
No where in the quran do we find that Iblis alone is asked by Allah to prostrate to Adam or Iblis and Angels were asked by Allah to prostrate to Adam.
Allah knows best
Marie
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PEACE MARIE, IDOL, RAHILA
1527 And the jinn We created before, of intensely hot fire.
1528 And when your Lord said to the angels Surely I am going to create a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape.
1529 So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down making obeisance to him.
1530 So the angels made obeisance, ALL of them together,
1531 But Iblis (did it not); he refused to be with those who made obeisance.
1649 And whatever creature that is in the heavens and that is in the earth makes obeisance to Allah (only), and the angels (too) and they do not show pride.
1650 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.
1850 And when We said to the angels Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the jinn, so he transgressed the commandment of his Lord. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust.
Ayat 1527 reinforces ayat 1850, in that, both define Iblis as of the Jinn. Ayat 1530, makes it clear that ALL of the angels obeyed and it is reinforced by ayat 1649-50. All, it appears to me, cannot be followed up with an "except", because that is contradictory, all means all, hence, in contrast, Sura 103, Allah, says of man that "he is in loss" and then follows it up with "except", however, Allah did not say..."all of man except".
1031 I swear by the time,
1032 Most surely man is in loss,
1033 Except those who believe and do good, and enjoin on each other truth, and enjoin on each other patience.
One can only conclude from ayats 1528-31 that, Iblis knew that just as the angels were required to obey Adam that, he, a Jinn human being...was required to obey as well.
Marie, I posted a message, a little lengthy I admit, to Rahila on Sep 23, 2004 709 am. If you do not mind, I would be interested in your response to my questions/assertions, thanks.
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Peace be upon you Marie,
Thank you for following that up with the clarifying evidence of the God.
I will take the God's explanation over the "self explanatory" any day. D
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Peace be upon you Marie,
I will take the God's explanation over the "self explanatory" any day.Kyle, the "self explanatory" comes from the verses itself which I quoted above (GOD's evidence). So to say that you'll take God's explanation over God's verses (self explanatroy), is thoughtless. shock
Besides, no where in the Quran do we find that Iblis was an angel but we do find that he was of the jinn (self explanatory).
If the statement above is untrue, then prove it. No need to "jump" or become sarcastic. lol
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Peace all,
No doubt the Angels were commanded to prostrate to Adam and they all did, simply becuase they DO NOT DISOBEY and DO WHATEVER THEY ARE COMMANDED TO DO BY GOD ALMIGHTY, PERIOD. There were/are other spirits/jinns in the heavens besides angels, one of which was Iblis, who WAS OF THE JINN AS PER THE QURAN ("GOD'S EVIDENCE"), hence thrown down on earth.
The exception to the verses that Marie quoted earlier doen't necessarily imply that Iblis was an angel, nor its explicitly mentioned anywhere in the Quran. BUT the Quran is clear and explicit on who Iblis was. He was of the jinn (not an angel), as per 1850.
If I was in a jungle wherein all animals resided and commanded the lions to submit to a frog, which they all did, and here comes a ladybug disobeying my command, thus banishing the ladybug out of the jungle, simply means that The lions were commanded to submit to the frog. All of them did except the ladybug, she was of an insect, doesn't make the ladybug a lion. This is how I understand and reason with the complexity of all the veses put together pertaining to who Iblis was, given the FACT that he was a jinn.
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Peace All,
In a debate from another forum, we were discussing the nature of angels. One particular ayah stood out as important to that topic, and this one as well...
4130 But, behold, as for those who say, "Our Lord is Allah," and then remain steadfastly upright ? upon them descend angels, saying, "Fear not, and grieve not, but hear good news of the Paradise that you are promised.
Now I wonder how many people have truly believed "Our Lord is Allah" and remained steadfastly upright. And I wonder how many of those heard the voices of angels.
I say none.
I think what is being implied here is the true nature of angels, or atleast one facet of this truth. They are dimensions of the human psyche, ie, emotions. So a person who truly believes "Our Lord is Allah" and remains steadfastly upright will not grieve. He will find peace. He will know through experience that he is on the path of righteousness. He "hears" the good news of Paradise through the flurry of great emotions one feels when he is in harmony with the universe.
Iblis, on the other hand, is pride/ego/rebellious desire, many names for the same disposition. Fiery in temperment and rebellious in nature.
These are all aspects of the human psyche. Notice we hear no mention of Iblis existing prior to the existence of man. Iblis was "designed" to be the consequence of free will.
My point all this splitting of hairs over whether or not Iblis was/is an angel is completely irrelevant to our development. The origin of the energy does not matter. The effect is what matters.
Another example
812 This is how your Lord inspired the angels, ?I am with you. So make the believers stand firm. ..
How can angels make the believers stand firm, if not through conviction, determination, faith?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace all,
I think the word ?jinn? in the context of 1850 is misunderstood
I find the translation of Ahmad Shabir more adequate
1850 Recall when We told the angels, ?Bow yourselves before Adam!? They all bowed except Iblis. He was of the hidden selfish desires (jinn) that drifted away from his Lord's Command. Will you still befriend him and his comrades? What a miserable exchange do the wrongdoers make for the right guidance! (230-38? illa ibleesa kanamina aljinni ? translated traditionally as ?except for Satan he was of the Jinn?
This word ?jinn? is not a race in the same way than
?alkafireena? in 3874
?almushrikeena? in 395,
?alghaweena? in 7175,
?alddalleena? in 2686
?alqaniteena? in 66 12In 1850, the translation of ?kanamina? as ?he was? is incorrect. Personally, I translate it as ?He became of?? in the same way in 3874
Iblis/satan disobeyed the order of his Lord because he became of?.
This verse explains itself.-
Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters
Illa ibleesa istakbara wa kanamina alkafireena -
Say ?God bears truth. Follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of those who set up partners.?
Qul sadaqa Allahu faittabiAAoomillata ibraheema haneefan wama kanamina almushrikeena -
And recite to them the story of the person whom Our revelations were given to him, but he removed himself from them, and thus the devil followed him, and He became of those who went astray.
Waotlu AAalayhim nabaa allatheeataynahu ayatina fainsalakhaminha faatbaAAahu alshshaytanu fakanamina alghaweena -
?And forgive my father, for he was of those misguided.?
Waighfir li-abee innahu kanamina alddalleena -
Also Mary, the daughter of Imran, who maintained her chastity. So We blew into her from Our spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures; and she was of those who were obedient.
Wamaryama ibnata AAimrana allatee ahsanatfarjaha fanafakhna feehi min roohinawasaddaqat bikalimati rabbiha wakutubihi wakanatmina alqaniteena
Hope that helps
Marie
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Peace be upon you Danish,
If I was in a jungle wherein all animals resided and commanded the lions to submit to a frog, which they all did, and here comes a ladybug disobeying my command, thus banishing the ladybug out of the jungle, simply means that The lions were commanded to submit to the frog. All of them did except the ladybug, she was of an insect, doesn't make the ladybug a lion. This is how I understand and reason with the complexity of all the veses put together pertaining to who Iblis was, given the FACT that he was a jinn.
But how did the ladybug disobey your command? You were commanding the Lions, not the ladybug? That would have been very unfair and unjust of you.
Imagine you are at work, and your boss comes to your desk and says "YOU'RE FIRED!!!!" You get a schocked look on your face "But WHY?"
Your Boss says, "Because you did not empty the trash when everyone left the building". You respond, "but that is not my job, you told the cleaning crew to do that". Your Boss replies, "but you rwere present when I commanded them to empty the trash, so you should have known I was commanding you too".How foolish does that sound?
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Peace be upon you Tay,
I think what is being implied here is the true nature of angels, or atleast one facet of this truth. They are dimensions of the human psyche, ie, emotions. So a person who truly believes "Our Lord is Allah" and remains steadfastly upright will not grieve. He will find peace. He will know through experience that he is on the path of righteousness. He "hears" the good news of Paradise through the flurry of great emotions one feels when he is in harmony with the universe.
Exactly.
My point all this splitting of hairs over whether or not Iblis was/is an angel is completely irrelevant to our development. The origin of the energy does not matter. The effect is what matters.
I disagree that it is irrelevant, because we have to combat falsehood. The idea that "jinn" is some creature is detrimental to our brothers and sisters. You would be suprised at how many people actually sit back and observe the THOUGHT process and how emotions are used as ENERGY (Energy in motion/ E-motion) to bring thoughts into reality.
These symbolic stories are suppossed to teach us that, but others are not understanding the basics of this story, so it is the job of those who now not to conceal the truth. But I do feel that enough evidence has been listed on this thread, so I think we should be nearing the end of this debate.
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The idea that "jinn" is some creature is detrimental to our brothers and sisters.
JINNS
Yet, they set up besides GOD idols from among the jinns, though He is the One who created them. They even attribute to Him sons and daughters, without any knowledge. Be He glorified. He is the Most High, far above their claims.
We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
The day will come when He summons all of them (and says) "O you jinns, you have claimed multitudes of humans." Their human companions will say, "Our Lord, we enjoyed each others' company until we wasted the life span You had set for us." He will say, "Hell is your destiny." They abide therein forever, in accordance with GOD's will. Your Lord is Wise, Omniscient.
O you jinns and humans, did you not receive messengers from among you, who narrated to you My revelations, and warned you about the meeting of this day? They will say, "We bear witness against ourselves." They were totally preoccupied with the worldly life, and they will bear witness against themselves that they were disbelievers.
He will say, "Enter with the previous communities of jinns and humans into Hell." Every time a group enters, they will curse their ancestral group. Once they are all in it, the latest one will say of the previous one, "Our Lord, these are the ones who misled us. Give them double the retribution of Hell." He will say, "Each receives double, but you do not know."
We have committed to Hell multitudes of jinns and humans. They have minds with which they do not understand, eyes with which they do not see, and ears with which they do not hear. They are like animals; no, they are far worse - they are totally unaware.
Only those blessed with mercy from your Lord (will not dispute the truth). This is why He created them. The judgment of your Lord has already been issued "I will fill Hell with jinns and humans, all together."
As for the jinns, we created them, before that, from blazing fire.
Say, "If all the humans and all the jinns banded together in order to produce a Quran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another."
We said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Satan. He became a jinn, for he disobeyed the order of His Lord. Will you choose him and his descendants as lords instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? What a miserable substitute!
Mobilized in the service of Solomon were his obedient soldiers of jinns and humans, as well as the birds; all at his disposal.
One afrit from the jinns said, "I can bring it to you before you stand up. I am powerful enough to do this."
Had we willed, we could have given every soul its guidance, but it is already predetermined that I will fill Hell with jinns and humans, all together.
To Solomon we committed the wind at his disposal, traveling one month coming and one month going. And we caused a spring of oil to gush out for him. Also, the jinns worked for him, by his Lord's leave. Any one of them who disregarded our commands, we subjected him to a severe retribution.
Clearly, the jinns have the power to disobey but the angels cannot. Since Iblis was a jinn, he disobeyed GOD and turned arrogant by not submitting to GOD?s new creation (human).When the appointed time for his death came, they had no clue that he had died. It was not until one of the animals tried to eat his staff, and he fell down, that the jinns realized that he was dead. They thus realized that if they really knew the unseen, they would have stopped working so hard as soon as he died.
They will answer, "Be You glorified. You are our Lord and Master, not them. Instead, they were worshiping the jinns; most of them were believers therein."
They even invented a special relationship between Him and the jinns. The jinns themselves know that they are subservient.
We assign to them companions who adorn everything they do in their eyes. Thus, they end up incurring the same fate as the previous communities of jinns and humans, who were also losers.
Those who disbelieved will say, "Our Lord, show us those among the two kinds - jinns and humans - who misled us, so we can trample them under our feet, and render them the lowliest."
Such are the ones stamped as disbelievers among every generation of jinns and humans; they are losers.
Recall that we directed a number of jinns to you, in order to let them hear the Quran. When they got there, they said, "Listen." As soon as it was over, they rushed to their people, warning.
I did not create the jinns and the humans except to worship Me alone.
(O humans and jinns,) which of your Lord's marvels can you deny?
And created the jinns from blazing fire.
We will call you to account, O humans and jinns.
O you jinns and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the earth, go ahead and penetrate. You cannot penetrate without authorization.
On that day, no human, nor a jinn, will be asked about his sins.
For those who reverence the majesty of their Lord, two gardens (one for the jinns and one for the humans).
Their beautiful mates were never touched by any human or jinn.
Below them are two gardens (one for the jinns and one for the humans).
No human ever touched them, nor a jinn.
Say, "I was inspired that a group of jinns listened, then said, `We have heard a wonderful Quran.
" `We thought that neither the humans, nor the jinns, could possibly utter lies about GOD.
" `Human beings used to seek power through jinn beings, but they only afflicted them with a lot of adversity.
"Be they of the jinns, or the people."
After reading studying and understanding thoroughly all the above verses in conjuntion with others, it is absolutely clear as daylight that Jinns are nothing else but creatures/beings. It is a mockery of GOD's Book (Al-Quran) to think otherwise.
On the same lines, Muhammad is a name/title given to a person just like Musa and Esa are (titles), Quran is a name given to GOD's Book just like Torah and Injeel are (titles), Islam is a name (a title) given to GOD'S System, Muslim is a name (a title) given to humans who believe in Islam and so on, all based on contextual clear undersstanding. It is plain stupidity to address someone by their name's (title's) meanings.
ONE THING IS FOR SURE EMOTIONS ARE NOT CREATURES, JINNS ARE.
Insha-Allah, I will get back on some of the previous issues (replies), such as that on 'ladybug' and 'Iblis being or not being an angel'.
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Peace Marie,
I think the word ?jinn? in the context of 1850 is misunderstood
I find the translation of Ahmad Shabir more adequate
1850 Recall when We told the angels, ?Bow yourselves before Adam!? They all bowed except Iblis. He was of the hidden selfish desires (jinn) that drifted away from his Lord's Command. Will you still befriend him and his comrades? What a miserable exchange do the wrongdoers make for the right guidance! (230-3If you find Ahmad Shabir's translation more adequate, then better believe the above in bold underlined. Iblis never became, but was, a jinn, as per the above.
In 1850, the translation of ?kanamina? as ?he was? is incorrect. Personally, I translate it as ?He became of?? in the same way in 3874
You found that Ahmed Shabir was more adequate??? What happened above? Why change from "he was" to "he became".
Iblis/satan disobeyed the order of his Lord because he became of?.
This verse explains itself.Not to me and neither to you since you are not sure of yourself in the first place (see below).
- Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters
Illa ibleesa istakbara wa kanamina alkafireena
"kanamina" translates into "became one of".
- Say ?God bears truth. Follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of those who set up partners.?
Qul sadaqa Allahu faittabiAAoomillata ibraheema haneefan wama kanamina almushrikeena
In the above verse, "kanamina" translates into "he was not of".
- And recite to them the story of the person whom Our revelations were given to him, but he removed himself from them, and thus the devil followed him, and He became of those who went astray.
Waotlu AAalayhim nabaa allatheeataynahu ayatina fainsalakhaminha faatbaAAahu alshshaytanu fakanamina alghaweena
Here, "kanamina" translates into "he became of".
- ?And forgive my father, for he was of those misguided.?
Waighfir li-abee innahu kanamina alddalleena
"kanamina" is translated as "he was" in the above verse.
- Also Mary, the daughter of Imran, who maintained her chastity. So We blew into her from Our spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures; and she was of those who were obedient.
Wamaryama ibnata AAimrana allatee ahsanatfarjaha fanafakhna feehi min roohinawasaddaqat bikalimati rabbiha wakutubihi wakanatmina alqaniteena
"kanatmina" is translated as "she was of".
Hope that helps.
Sorry to say, not a bit, very confusing. Why the discrepancies? Can you make up your mind or are you trying to prove your point without a point? (No offense intended, just a question).
Thanks and GOD bless.
- Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters
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Peace Danish,
If I'm not wrong, the difference between our reasonings, you consider jinn as a race and not me.
Independently if "kanamina" in 1850 means "he became of" or "he was of", the two meanings are possible.
In the light of the context of 1850, I prefer "he became" than "he was" because I consider "Iblis/satan disobeyed the order of his Lord" is a consequence of "kanamina aljinn / he became of the jinn".In the following verses, "except for Satan" does not mark the end of the sentence, the blue sentences are supplementary and explain themself mutually.
so they submitted except for Satan; he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters. (234)
so they submitted except for Satan; he was not of those who submitted.(711)
Thus, all of the Angels submitted,(1530) except for Satan; he refused to be with those who submitted. (1531)
So they submitted except for Satan; he said ?Shall I submit to one you have created from mud!?(1761)
So they all submitted except for Satan; he was of the "jinn", so he disobeyed the order of his Lord(1850)
They all submitted except for Satan; he refused.(20116)
The Angels submitted, all of them, (3873)except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters.(3874)
Allah knows best
Marie
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PEACE MARIE
In 1850, the translation of ?kanamina? as ?he was? is incorrect. Personally, I translate it as ?He became of?? in the same way in 3874
Iblis/satan disobeyed the order of his Lord because he became of?.
This verse explains itself.- Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters
Illa ibleesa istakbara wa kanamina alkafireena
Even if you translate the ayat as..."he became one of the rejectors", hence, a "fallen maliaka", your arguement still fails for the following reason
721 Say It has been revealed to me that a party of the Jinn listened, and they said Surely we have heard a wonderful Quran...
7211 And that some of us are good and others of us are below that we are sects following different ways
7214 And that some of us are those who submit, and some of us are the deviators; so whoever submits, these aim at the right way
The above ayats, conclusively, establish that the Jinn humans were divided into two camps/sects, those who submitted to Allah/believed and those that didn't. Iblis, to whom we may extend the benefit of the doubt, prior to the advent of Adam, may have been of those who submited/believed. However, when Allah decided to establish Adam as leadership in the earth, well, Iblis, rebelled and thus became of the camp/sect , of rejectors/disbelievers/those who refuse to submit.
It appears that, where Allah uses..."he became", in regard to Iblis, it is in reference to his attitude i.e. "he became of the rejectors/disbelievers/kafiroona, and not his composition as a creation. This is why 1850 cannot be translated into..."he became a Jinn".
Clearly then, Iblis was not a malaika who "became/transformed" into a Jinn human being.
- Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters
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Peace PB,
In the light of 1850, jinn is not a race but an attitude/behavior of Iblis/satan and the cause of his disobedience
illa ibleesa kanamina aljinni---->consequently---> fafasaqa AAan amri rabbihi (so he disobeyed the order of his Lord)
He became/was of the hidden selfish desires .so he disoby his lord...
This explanation is reinforced by the verses that I quoted in my last post, Allah speaks about the behavior of Iblis in the blue sentences 234, 1711, 1531, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3874.
Allah knows best
Marie
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PEACE MARIE
illa ibleesa kanamina aljinni---->consequently---> fafasaqa AAan amri rabbihi (so he disobeyed the order of his Lord) He became/was of the hidden selfish desires .so he disoby his lord... This explanation is reinforced by the verses that I quoted in my last post, Allah speaks about the behavior of Iblis in the blue sentences 234, 1711, 1531, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3874.
I see what you mean, however, you are not taking into account Sura Al-Jinn, where it is quite clear that the Jinn, represent some kind of creation which can choose to submit/believe or not submit/disbelieve. To say that Jinn, represents "hidden selfish desire", contradicts ayats 7211 and 14, in that, if a Jinn submits and believes, how then, can he be considered selfish?
If I'm not wrong, the difference between our reasonings, you consider jinn as a race and not me.
Also, Allah says of the Jinn
1527 And the jinn We created before, of intensely hot fire.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that you do not accept the Jinn, as being some kind of distinct being apart from the malaika. So, my question to you then is, are the Jinn, fallen malaika? I ask this, because Iblis became one the disbelievers, hence, the terms "those" and "disbelievers" are plural terms. Given that, the Jinn precede man, then who are the "those" whom Iblis is like?
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Peace Marie,
If, according to you, Kyle and others, Iblis was an angel and became emotional (jinn), then he must still be an angel and remain that way on earth until the D-Day. But according to the Quran, angels uphold absolute authority, obey at all times and do whatever they are told. In other words, they are especially designed and created by GOD to do just that. This also implies that the angels cannot disobey any command of GOD nor do they possess any emotional/behavioral indifferences (good or bad) in them or amongst them. How the hell did an angel like Iblis (it?s a disgrace to even call him an angel) got out of hand? Did GOD make a mistake in creating angels, specifically Iblis? Or are there many such devilish angels with emotions (jinns) that exists on earth? I?m sure there are abundance of devilish emotional creatures (human and jinn kinds) inhabitant on earth but none of them are angels, as per my understanding of the Quran. If that?s the case, then its not possible to trust, believe in and obey them, as commanded to us by GOD. It would be horrendous to even call an angel, a devil or satan. Only jinnkind like Iblis or humankind, can have the nerves to disobey and turn arrogant towards GOD?s commands and as well as others, thus becoming disbelievers journeying to Hell and therefore termed as devils and satans.
Emotion
- A mental state that arises spontaneously rather than through conscious effort and is often accompanied by physiological changes; a feeling the emotions of joy, sorrow, reverence, hate, and love.
- A state of mental agitation or disturbance spoke unsteadily in a voice that betrayed his emotion. See Synonyms at feeling.
- The part of the consciousness that involves feeling; sensibility ?The very essence of literature is the war between emotion and intellect? (Isaac Bashevis Singer).
Jinn
- In Muslim legend, a spirit often capable of assuming human or animal form and exercising supernatural influence over people
- nee \Jin"nee, n.; pl. Jinn. (Arabian & Mohammedan Myth.) A genius or demon; one of the fabled genii, good and evil spirits, supposed to be the children of fire, and to have the power of assuming various forms.
Some of the key features are outlined below and I'm sure there may be many more
- Emotions/behaviour do not have minds, eyes and ears; humans and jinns (creatures) do.
- Emotions/behaviour are not thrown in Hell; human and jinns (creatures) are.
- Emotions/behaviour do not receive messengers and revelations; humans and jinns (creatures) do.
- Emotions/behaviour do not share each others company; humans and jinns (creatures) do.
- Emotions/behaviour do not have communities/sects/groups; humans and jinns (creatures) do.
- Emotions/behaviour are the result of human and jinn kind (creatures) themselves, whereas humans and jinns are created by GOD. Emotions/behaviour are the consequences of ?feelings?; humans and jinns are the consequences of creation - ?clay/mud? and ?blazing fire? .
- Emotions/behaviour do not have soldiers/armies; humans and jinns (creatures) do. Solomon had humans, jinns and birds as soldiers at his disposal, by GOD?s leave.
- Emotions/behaviour, whether good or bad, are within both humans and jinns (creatures).
- Jinns have no clue of life and death, nor the unseen.
- Emotions/behaviour do not have generations or are termed as disbelievers and losers, but jinns and humans as creatures have/are.
- Jinns and humans are consistently mentioned and categorized as two distinct kinds/creatures throughout the Quran.
In accordance with all the verses supplied earlier and some of the distinguishing points made above and as well as by Priest BM, pertaining to jinns, it is evidently obvious and crystal clear that jinns are creatures/beings/spirits and not emotions or behaviour. There are good and bad humans and there are good and bad jinns, both of which have emotional/behavioral patterns within themselves. The Quran also distinguishes both the kinds (humans and jinns) throughout and yet some cannot/refuse to understand such clear distinct verses.
Perhaps Marie, Kyle or anyone else who assumes that jinn means emotion or behaviour can collectively put together all the verses pertaining to jinns, with explanation.
Is there any dictionary that mentions jinns to mean emotions or behaviour? That would be interesting. Btw, are emotion and behaviour in Arabic correct as follows? Thanks.
emotion , ,
behaviour , ,GOD bless.
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Peace PB,
PEACE MARIE
illa ibleesa kanamina aljinni---->consequently---> fafasaqa AAan amri rabbihi (so he disobeyed the order of his Lord) He became/was of the hidden selfish desires .so he disoby his lord... This explanation is reinforced by the verses that I quoted in my last post, Allah speaks about the behavior of Iblis in the blue sentences 234, 1711, 1531, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3874.
I see what you mean, however, you are not taking into account Sura Al-Jinn, where it is quite clear that the Jinn, represent some kind of creation which can choose to submit/believe or not submit/disbelieve. To say that Jinn, represents "hidden selfish desire", contradicts ayats 7211 and 14, in that, if a Jinn submits and believes, how then, can he be considered selfish?
No because you attribute the same meaning to this word in different contexts.
Let us suppose that this word means a creature, the "FA" in "FAfasaqa/so he disobey(fasaqa)" gives the cause and effect.
We know, there are those who submit, and some are the deviator among Jinn (7214)
In 1850, we read Iblis became/was of....(cause)----->FAfasaqa/he disobey)(effect)
The word jinn in 1850 couldn't means a creature because all the Jinn are not disobeying their lord (7214).
I don't think you attribute the same meanings to the word salat everywhere in the quran.
If I'm not wrong, the difference between our reasonings, you consider jinn as a race and not me.
Also, Allah says of the Jinn
1527 And the jinn We created before, of intensely hot fire.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that you do not accept the Jinn, as being some kind of distinct being apart from the malaika.
Jinn and Ins/human are two creatures.
All of the Angels submitted, except Iblis 234, 1711, 1531, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3874
For me there is no doubt Iblis is one of the Angels who disobeyed his lord .
No where in the quran do we find that Iblis alone is asked by Allah to prostrate to Adam or Iblis and Angels were asked by Allah to prostrate to Adam.
The following verse coul give an additional information
- But the devil whispered to them, to reveal their wickedness to them which was kept from them; and he said ?Your Lord did not forbid you from this tree except that you would become Angels, or you would be immortal.?
So, my question to you then is, are the Jinn, fallen malaika?
This is a good question, I don't know about Jinn but I think Iblis is a fallen/rebel angel.
I ask this, because Iblis became one the disbelievers, hence, the terms "those" and "disbelievers" are plural terms. Given that, the Jinn precede man, then who are the "those" whom Iblis is like?
This is a good question, Allah doesn't specify. Disbelievers or rejectors are a generic term.
Let us read the following verse
723.They said (Adam and his mate) ?Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves and if You do not forgive us and have mercy on us, then we will be of the losers!?
The losers is a plural term. Idem "the losers" is a generic term.
Salam
Marie