Chapter 2 (verses 51-100)

marie

Peace all,

Yes, DHAN (thought)

You confuse DHAN and Zhan

DHAN =

thought/ZHAN =

In the verb "dhanna = , there is the notion of the avarice

And he withholds not in secret/avariciously the least bit of the Revelation.

Wama huwa AAala alghaybi bidaneenin/

Lama3aan----->shiny
The verb lama3a-----------> to shine
The root L/M/3/

In the same way
The root of ramadan is "R/M/Dh"

The letter N doesn't belong to the root

Peace

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Khalil,

Regarding the verse where "musa" told his people to kill thierselves, I do not translate "nafs" as SELF. I beleive that "nafs" is "MIND", so he told them to KILL thier MINDS they had, meaning to get rid of thier rejecting thoughts.

The God tells us that He does not change the condition of a people until they change what is in thier MINDS(nafs).

I hope that helps.

Grourself

Salam

Here is Ramadhan

And here is dhan

and here is Rama

rama, and dhan are written completely different, than in the word ramadhan.

What about learning some arabic, before trying to analyse its words?

Just a suggestion

Best regards,
sabo

Peace,

Sabo, firstly the analysis was not my own and secondly I suggest you curb your ignorant remarks and grow up. You have no idea what I know. Any Arab child learns Arabic. Intelligence is another matter. Intelligent people know how to disagree without resorting to insults or mockery. The insults usually reflect ones lack of convincing proof for a position or lack of true understanding of the position put forth which is still no excuse for bad behavior. This behavior is the cause of divisions among mankind. I?m amazed that someone would have to remind you or anyone here that God has warned us to ?be not like the pagans? and become divided. He has also warned us against arrogance, pride and self-righteousness. Read and reflex on sura Luqman.

shuaib

Dear brother mz,

believe me, grourself is not onto something...

dear grourself,

the other members here have clarified to you what i thought should have been obvious... so let me add a few more critiques if you weren't embarassed enough by your simple spelling mistake.

A very common wazan used in Arabic is of the form fe'laan, fi'laan, or fu'laan... such as FURQan, QURan, RIDWan, KASLan,TA'Ban, ... all of these words are formed by adding "an" to the root, and it is NOT part of the root. So deconstructing ramadan in the way you have (which has never been done before) seems rather out of place, especially since you totally ignore the MOST common way of deconstructing it. One can only assume its due to total ignorance of Arabic grammar, especially since you cant spell correctly!

Not only did you make one spelling mistake but you made 2... i am not fancy enough to be able to post in arabic so i will post in transliteration.

DTHANN (thought) is not only spelled differently from ramaDaan by the first letter (dwaad)... but it also has 2 noons in the root. Ramadaan only has one noon in the root. To conclude that daan in ramadaan is from thann is actually committing 2 spelling mistakes at once!!

Now there are all sorts of mistakes to be made in this world, but you dont want to be on the losing team because of a silly spelling mistake.

So anyway, if it's not painfully obvious yet to you, I dont know what else to say. But clearly, you did not derive this by yourself. So please, grace all of us on this forum and please br mz why dont you chime in as well... where is this strange teaching coming from?

ws

Grourself

Dear brother mz,

believe me, grourself is not onto something...

dear grourself,

the other members here have clarified to you what i thought should have been obvious... so let me add a few more critiques if you weren't embarassed enough by your simple spelling mistake.

A very common wazan used in Arabic is of the form fe'laan, fi'laan, or fu'laan... such as FURQan, QURan, RIDWan, KASLan,TA'Ban, ... all of these words are formed by adding "an" to the root, and it is NOT part of the root. So deconstructing ramadan in the way you have (which has never been done before) seems rather out of place, especially since you totally ignore the MOST common way of deconstructing it. One can only assume its due to total ignorance of Arabic grammar, especially since you cant spell correctly!

Not only did you make one spelling mistake but you made 2... i am not fancy enough to be able to post in arabic so i will post in transliteration.

DTHANN (thought) is not only spelled differently from ramaDaan by the first letter (dwaad)... but it also has 2 noons in the root. Ramadaan only has one noon in the root. To conclude that daan in ramadaan is from thann is actually committing 2 spelling mistakes at once!!

Now there are all sorts of mistakes to be made in this world, but you dont want to be on the losing team because of a silly spelling mistake.

So anyway, if it's not painfully obvious yet to you, I dont know what else to say. But clearly, you did not derive this by yourself. So please, grace all of us on this forum and please br mz why dont you chime in as well... where is this strange teaching coming from?

ws

Blah, blah, blah...that is what is taught in "grammar" school to children. I am versed in what you have presented. Sadly your presentation smacks of a closed mind. If I accepted your proof at face value without investigation I would be as you are and a blind follower of pagan arabs. I am not overly interested in what the majority understands or the books the arabs have written on grammar or their dictionaries which include things like "salaat" ritual prayer or zakat "poor-rate". God says He explains and teaches the Book, not them. This word ramadhan is unique if understood "as is". My intellect is not yours. Mines tells me that the backwards calendar or month named by them and used by the arabs is not what God is referring to in the Book. I will continue to search for the correct meaning. My post concerning this word was meant as food for thought and never presented as the "last word". I believe I said, "Try this on for size". It's amazing that you "know it all". Where is your translation of the Qur'an? Perhaps we should all be quiet and just sit back and listen and allow you to "teach" the Qur'an. God has made laws for guidance. His laws never change and He has promised to guide those who seek guidance and His promise never fails. I shall trust in Him. (not arab grammar books).

If you follow the majority on earth they will lead you astray.

Grourself

BTW

I will forward the rational portion of your disagreements to the author.

sabo

Salam,

Salaams sabo,
I think Grourself is onto something understandable

I beg you to learn arabic before telling me what you think , thanks.

I will forward the rational portion of your disagreements to the author.

Yeah and please try to forward to him that we beg him to learn arabic before analysing its words )

thanks.

Best regards,
sabo

shuaib

Dear Grourself,

Why is it that after 2 straightforward requests, you are too shy/embarassed/?? to tell us WHO this author is?

Here's the thing grourself, if you had presented your argument in a rational fashion which means no spelling mistakes, acknowledging and explaining why the conventional grammar is wrong... i might have still said i disagree with you, but i would also say heck this guy knows his stuff.

But to be SO pro for a particular argument that despite 2 ridiculous spelling mistakes, and ignoring all the BASIC rules of grammar that are not derived merely by ARABS but are derived from the Arabic used THROUGHOUT the Quran... aren't you being the one that's closed minded?

Frankly, if I was in your position (and I have been in your position), i would be very embarassed. But just like any closed minded person, you are just that much more vocal and enraged. But I'm not surprised because many people in this world are closed minded... you must have been open minded at some point, where you accepted this very strange belief... but now you seem to have closed out any possibility of you being wrong.

But then again, its not you who is wrong... its whoever this mysterious author who shall not be named.

I am not an Arab, nor did I grow up learning Arabic. I went through great pains to learn Arabic, and attempt to understand the Quran through itself. Not through the words of others. And truly, if you have no clue about Arabic or Arabic grammar then you are on loose soil. Traditional grammar teachings CAN be wrong, nothing is infallible outside the Quran. BUT, you can't be so cavalier that you mispell, ignore all exisiting grammatical rules, and adopt a teaching that would be SO radical that it would not only change how you understand the word RAMADAN, but also QURAN, FURQAN, KASLAN, IRFAN, TABAAN, IMTIHAAN, etc etc etc...

even the most basic student of Arabic can see that one of the most beautiful parts of Arabic is the simple rule, one root for one word.

if you still think ramadaan refers to something else by all means give us the historical reasoning, and your research. but dont resort to grammatical/linguistic analysis because it just won't work.

wassalam

unknownuser

Salaams sabo ,
i wasn't telling you what i think,i smply stated that as a general remark ,rather i was showing you how, your article was slightly misleading ,as politely as was possible,thanks.

By giving the meaning of Zhan and not Dhan.

And no i don't intend to learn Arabic whether thats an offence to you or not.

And some people here think you have to have a degree in arabic or something to be able to understand ,it.

I personally would say the Arabs ,have made fools of the world ,for a long long time ,And Allah willing it will end gradually.

No disrespects,meant.
Allah hafiz.

shuaib

bro mz357,

"no i don't intend to learn Arabic"

"some people here think you have to have a degree in arabic or something to be able to understand it"

let me ask you, how do you portend to understand Arabic without learning it? Pray tell what is this superhuman characteristic of yours, since most people on this planet need to learn a language in order to understand it.

There is only one advantage for you not to learn arabic... and that is so that you can continue to believe your mysterious masters words who has so mesmerized you, that you would rather take his/their words rather than approach the Quran with an open mind. (The definition of open-mind being to accept ones fallibility especially when confronted with undeniable proofs/disproofs)

ws

Grourself

Peace,

Take a deep breath my brothers! lol

I don?t usually engage in this sort of internet rhetoric because the anonymous relationships somehow breed arrogance and self righteousness in many but I want to be clear on something

?Try this on for size? equals a closed mind ????

I would also like to make a comment on the issue of the author. My omission was deliberate. Intellectual debates do not require the author?s identity when debating on the facts put forward. Not mentioning the author eliminates two very possible and probable reactions

It prevents blind followers from simply jumping on the side of those they allow to lead them.
It precludes certain personality types from expressing perceived or unperceived prejudices before considering the facts.

Some people learn only with concrete learning materials, i.e., grammar rules, and others are able to learn in the abstract and can perceive concepts communicated by looking at the big picture. The human mind is complex and we are not all alike. What is the good of attacking someone or being sarcastic and snide simply because they understand something differently than you? Spelling? read this

Could this be why generation after generation those fluent in Arabic have failed to recognize the insidious corruptions in translations of God?s guidance in Qur'aan Majeed?

Could this be why they have failed to notice these translations and concepts make no sense?

Or are they simply ?sheeple??

The paomnnehil pweor of the hmuan mnid. Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. >The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Perety amzanig huh?

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. I take the truth where I find it. Believe me when I tell you my mind is open to the ?possibilities?. The pagan Arabs have corrupted and perverted the plain, clear, easy teachings in the Qur'aan. That?s why we are here now attempting to ?crack the code? or perhaps it as God intended. Those sincere would have to seek the guidance. The Arabs have not been made keepers of the faith as they would have mankind believe. A dictionary or a grammar book can be WRONG!

I know some need to believe that every dot and tittle in the Qur'aan is as it has always been and nothing has been changed but the concept of God preserving, and protecting the message and guidance in the Book does not necessarily mean that every diacritical mark is as it should be. However, that is ones right to believe such a thing. When one is pragmatic that understanding seems unreasonable and could be construed as blind faith. It seems an indefensible position. I find what I can understand of the Qur'aan to be totally pragmatic. That understanding, ?every dot and tittle?, is exactly what Christians are now using against Islam when they produce different versions of the Qur'aan e.g. Warsh vs. Hafs. Preservation through word of mouth is even less defensible. God says He is the preserver, and guardian of the Book. Does He tell you how He accomplishes this? I?m not sure, are you? Let?s resign ourselves to just debating the facts, pros and cons, and allow for all open and free minds to express themselves. Let?s question, reason and think! We might learn something. Those convinced do not fall down deaf and blind even at the words we read in the Qur'aan. I hope these words reflect my sincerity and I offer the verses below to defend this position.

2573 ? And who, whenever they are reminded of even the Revelations of their Lord, do not fall at them deaf and blind (with deaf and blind acceptance).

218 Deaf, dumb and blind of Reason. They won?t return to begin their journey in the right direction until they use their faculties of perception and reasoning (822, 1676,1736).

2171 The attitude of blind following drags people to subhuman level (7179). Like a herd of sheep they understand nothing but only hear calls that are meaningless to them. They just inherit the senseless actions of their ancestors. Deaf, dumb, blind because they choose not to use their faculties. Such people, of course, fail to attain sense.

822 The worst of creations in the Sight of Allah are those deaf, those dumb who do not use their intellect (218, 1676).

Wakas

peace All,

In all movements, you will get the extreme swings to either side. Some people try to reject every single thing that might be traditional, some people accept every traditional teaching. Just be the WaSaT.

Wakas

shuaib

dear grourself,

well i understand why you might be unwilling to give the name of this author person, but i dont think you should worry about that on this forum. anyway, this is something totally new which i have never heard before, so that is why i was curious. does anyone else know where these teachings come from?

anyway, there is no problem with having an open mind. and i do appreciate what you and bro mz are trying to do. you realize that the current system for the past 1000 years hasn't worked, and current traditions often are senseless, and you were in search of a better explanation. at some point you came across a teaching that you really agreed with, and you are running with that.

but some words of caution... please still be objective. you need proofs for your beliefs... you cannot just say that you somehow have a unique perception of or grasp of "the bigger picture," because any charlatan can say that and anyone can fool themself too.. proofs however, avoid this possible problem.

So again, if you wholeheartedly believe something that is based on things which have no proof or REASON whatsoever... why are you surprised that I call it closed-mindedness? you state that you DO believe something that is based on spelling mistakes... how can anyone say that you are walking with both eyes open?

Is there any more simple way to say it? Your belief is based on spelling mistakes... and also ignoring grammar of any kind. remember, you have not provided alternate grammar, you've just totally ignored any idea of the concept of grammar... otherwise you would already have worked out how your rule should apply to other words like QURAN, FURQAN, IMRAN, etc etc

ws

Grourself

Peace,

Shuaib

So again, if you wholeheartedly believe something that is based on things which have no proof or REASON whatsoever... why are you surprised that I call it closed-mindedness? you state that you DO believe something that is based on spelling mistakes... how can anyone say that you are walking with both eyes open?

My position is that it is you who could possibly believe something that is based on spelling mistakes or wrong grammar.

I think you are missing the point. The Muslim world has never been able to address the challenge to prove that there are no spelling mistakes or changes in the Qur'aan. Why? Because to believe such a thing is based on blind faith. Read ?The Perfect Quran?. I think it?s by someone called Brother Mark. The author provides scanned images to show the discrepancies which are undeniable. His next line of proof relies on traditions which make that portion of his argument moot. Mankind and (shiver) the desert Arabs reliability and credibility to preserve a book from 14 centuries ago is unlikely. God?s promise to preserve and teach the message is infallible. We are told to take the challenge and propagate for God using reason and intellect. God never proposes blind faith. How would one prove to Brother Mark that every word in the Qur'aan is as it should be and contains no spelling errors? It is a perfectly reasonable line of questioning from a man who thinks even though in the case of Br. Mark he?s just another blind follower of Christianity. I understand from the narratives in the Qur'aan when on the Day of Deen the companions of the fire will ask for double punishment for those they followed and are told ?double for you both? has a lesson that includes blind following even with good intentions will not be acceptable on that day and that if I make a mistake let it be my own. We will answer individually as to the use of our reason and intellect. It is not so important to all understand everything the same. It is important to purify ourselves from shirk by not blindly following other authorities after God which is shirk. I know you are probably thinking I am preaching to the choir but I am trying to explain my motives. I cannot propagate something that I cannot reasonably explain. (My post did not indicate that it was what I believed or to use words you added like wholeheartedly but it makes more sense than what I?ve seen so far.)Been there, done that (blindly following hadith). Taubah is turning back to the right direction. I?m seeking those reasonable explanations and best answers in the Qur'aan. I thought this was a forum of like minded people. I?m not intimidated by criticism but some are and I want to hear what they have to say. Let?s not drive them away or keep them among the many silent readers by making things up like where you say I said I have some kind of ?unique perception? to see the big picture and that?s what my proof is based on or that I am running with something. It?s counterproductive.

shuaib

dear grourself,

Well i think there are certain principles that we all need to agree on, otherwise there is no point in talking.

Firstly, your clear disdain for "desert arabs" while i understand a little bit what your intention is, realize that our beloved Prophet and the beloved sahaba were "desert Arabs." Realize that some of the greatest scientists and greatest accomplishments of the world were done by "desert Arabs." And the language of the "desert Arabs" was the one chosen by Allah for the WORD OF ALLAH.

The Quran was memorized and compiled into a book at the time of the Prophet and mass production was carried out shortly thereafter. There may be differences in pronunciation (warsh, hafs etc) but the Quranic content is uniform. To believe that the Quran was altered is to believe that Allah has broken his promise. Why? Because once altered, you can never have that same thing back again... it will never again be purely Allah's words. No matter how many cockamaney grammar inventions you come up with, you will never say 100% what Allah SAID.

It is unfortunate that many hadiths abound which discredit the Quran. Hadith saying that there are ayahs that are missing, that the Quran was written on leaves and bones and not compiled into a book until much after the Prophet died. These hadiths truly are fabricated, for the sole purpose of discrediting the Quran.

As far as your brother Mark, i was not able to find anything about this book except a small bit on a christian forum, here's what one person had to say

"By the way the author of that book has a picture of two Quranic texts. One Turkish, the other, Egyptian. I read them both and found no difference. Can you do the same? The Arabic language is not like English, it is much differnent. The letters are right there, in the exact place for 1400 years. He points to a letter that he infact changed! You can see the pixels in an arranged manner. As an arabic reader, I can tell that the author is a fake and a liar"

Grourself, you can't just pretend that the Quran has been changed because you think it's too amazing for it to be preserved! Just read it, and look at the meaning, and THEN if you see a contradiction, or unreasonable thing, THEN you can start saying hmm there's a problem. But what you seem to be doing is ASSUMING the Quran is corrupt... and I dont know any self-respecting Muslim who would dare to do such a thing without a reason.

So far what you have posted about Ramadan has been pretty much meaningless. And now you are proposing that somehow I am the one that is spelling wrong??? Arabic is Arabic... it's not up to you to start creating new grammar and new words on your own... because you are merely trying to write the book with your own hands.

It would be one thing if you proposed something coherent... but your breakdown of the word ramadaan was nothing short of ridiculous. To not even be able to spell, to have no clue about how words are constructed, and to be so defiant in the face of OVERWHELMING evidence to the contrary... at first I said closed minded, but you almost seem bent on saying that Islam itself is corrupt, in which case this discussion is over.

ws

unknownuser

Dear all,
There is a lot of mistranslation ,done on purpose to benefit the pagan arabs and some unintentional misintarpretations - according to the biblical ,or taurat stories and then you people frogot the Grammer of the quran as is visible here on this forum.

And Allah willing we will learn the real message but in due course no doughts about that!

Thanks.

Grourself

Peace,

Firstly, your clear disdain for "desert arabs" while i understand a little bit what your intention is, realize that our beloved Prophet and the beloved sahaba were "desert Arabs." Realize that some of the greatest scientists and greatest accomplishments of the world were done by "desert Arabs." And the language of the "desert Arabs" was the one chosen by Allah for the WORD OF ALLAH.

997 The desert Arabs are more hard in rejection and hypocrisy, and more likely to ignore the Limits that Allah has revealed to His Messenger. Allah is Knower, Wise.
998 Among these Bedouin Arabs is he who looks upon his spending as a penalty, and awaits a disaster to hit you. (They hope for the Divine Order to collapse). It is they who invite disaster upon themselves. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
999 And among the Bedouins are those who believe in Allah and the Last Day and consider their spending as a means towards Allah and a means of supporting the Messenger. This will raise their ranks with Allah. Allah will embrace them with His Mercy. Verily, Allah is Forgiving, Gracious.

You disagree?

Grourself, you can't just pretend that the Quran has been changed because you think it's too amazing for it to be preserved! Just read it, and look at the meaning, and THEN if you see a contradiction, or unreasonable thing, THEN you can start saying hmm there's a problem. But what you seem to be doing is ASSUMING the Quran is corrupt... and I dont know any self-respecting Muslim who would dare to do such a thing without a reason.

What I think is not the point but what I can prove is the point. I said it is a reasonable assumption. You miss the point again and you cannot seem to only read what is written without interjecting your ideas and opinions. What would please me is to be able to offer irrefutable proof that it is as claimed. That would be perfect but so far I don?t see that proof yet available. I can of course point to many amazing truths in the Book but when questioned about the nonsensical meanings applied to some verses then what do I put forth? Do I say like the Christians that you just have to believe? That is blind faith and blind following. I am searching for the irrefutable proof. I would not use myself as a barometer because I have proved that I can be led, I followed hadith. I seek the proof for those less gullible. I do know self respecting Muslims with credentials of intelligentsia that have found good reason to question. According to the corrupt translations available there is good reason to say?humm there is a problem. What is causing that problem? Spelling? Grammar? Lack of intellect? I don?t know. If I use an Arabic to English or any other language dictionary there are verses which make no sense as explained by desert arabs. Without hadith to prop up their explanation one is left without any guidance, as intended by God, at all. Arabic is a word that itself means plain/clear and what you propose is anything but. Do we now credit the Arabs because their language is the language of the Qur'aan? What nonsense again. I believe the Qur'aan is the word of God and He is able to preserve and teach the Book and He doesn?t need us to make up a defense for the Book. God is sufficient as a witness and He brings His proof, always, it?s His law. It is not His whim or randomly applied. You discredit hadith but offer as proof what you say is historically correct. History is full of lies. Is that proof? Something written in another book which God has not promised to preserve. When He says associate NOTHING with Me, I think I understand that to be nothing, no holy buildings, no holy cities, no holy rocks, no holy language, no sneezes and other such garbage. I understand the message in the Book to be guidance for an orderly way of life for God that includes permanent social values. No religion. When the self is primed for success it will be rewarded in the future, the next life, a bargain. When we serve God as Sovereign we reach our potential. When we sacrifice our intellect and serve false authorities including our own desires we drag our ?selves? down. I say it is all from God but I don?t understand it all. Therefore I will ask those who know, the scientist, not the historian or the self appointed religious scholars of arabic.

It would be one thing if you proposed something coherent... but your breakdown of the word ramadaan was nothing short of ridiculous. To not even be able to spell, to have no clue about how words are constructed, and to be so defiant in the face of OVERWHELMING evidence to the contrary... at first I said closed minded, but you almost seem bent on saying that Islam itself is corrupt, in which case this discussion is over.

No more nonsensical then what you propose. You mention Islam, capital "I", a proper noun. It?s a verb, surrender. Surrender for God is not corrupt only what you propose it says in the Book. I see muslims pretend a fast is an uplifting test when a fast is expiation for a self wronged on certain fixed days and no fun at all. I find a yearly simultaneous fast for all mankind nonsensical and ritualistically done. Nothing communal about it and the only other person mentioned in connection to a fast is ones spouse. That is why there is so much spec as to how to fast in the arab month of Ramadan. Because it is not enjoined. Easy! But then that?s my understanding and I don?t need to convince you. I shall answer for what I do as will you.

shuaib

Dear grourself,

I?m going to try to make this as organized as possible.

Part A - Common Ground

Like I said before, we cannot have a discussion without some common ground.

As Muslims, part of our Imaan involves imaan in Allah, the Prophet, and his books including the Quran. In one fell swoop you cast doubt on all these 3 by suggesting the Quran has been corrupted.

482 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.

To suggest that anything has been added or subtracted from the Quran would cast doubt on the ENTIRE book. One could never claim TRUE imaan in an imperfectly preserved work.

Now you ask for PROOF that it wasn?t changed. But the Quran asks nonbelievers (and some Muslims I guess, as in this case) that if you think it was changed, then there should be discrepancies, i.e. it is a CHALLENGE. It?s not feasible for me to go through every verse to prove its validity, but all you need is ONE counterexample.

So you can?t put the cart before the horse. Unless we agree on our imaan in the Quran, there is no point to talking about other issues.

Part B ? Arabs

Your borderline racist comments about Arabs has probably been the least enlightened thing you?ve said. You quoted some verses about some ?desert Arabs.? Of course there were enemies of the Prophet who were Arabs, where was the Quran revealed?? But also, the prophet and the sahaba were Arabs! Stereotypes are meaningless, and if you want to talk about who has done the most damage to the meaning of Islam, it was really the sophisticated elite Persians. Further discussion on this topic will be totally fruitless.

Part C ? Ramadaan

Let?s face it, this discussion started by the meaning of Ramadaan. You presented something you thought to be interesting and which apparently you still believe, but never once acknowledged any sort of mistake on your part or the author (which is typical of closed-mindedness). So let me ask frankly

How was it that such a remarkably insightful theory was based on a very simple spelling mistake of the word THANN?? Were you THAT much of a blind follower that you couldn?t even look that little word up?
Why is it that you never provided any sort of evidence for the months being named AFTER hijrah? Most of the historical evidence implies the opposite, as well as Quranic evidence.
Why didn?t you explain why there are other words very similar to ramadaan that only break into 1 root (Quran, Furqaan, Imraan, Kaslaan, etc)
Failed to provide a real example of an Arabic word breaking down into 2 roots

I know, you?ve said it before. You don?t have to believe my grammar. But even that statements displays total lack of understanding of what grammar is.

Grammar is an objective linguistic SCIENCE that should be reproducible by separate independent observers of a language. There is nothing to BLINDLY believe. That?s like saying math teachers ask you to BLINDLY follow them, a totally ignorant notion. There?s nothing blind about grammatical science? if you doubt something, disprove it. Disproving something doesn?t mean that you just provide a random unproven explanation, like 1+ 1 = 3, without reasoning. You MUST provide reasons, examples, and then show how that result can be GENERALIZED. This is just like ANY derivation of laws in science.

You ended your post very fittingly, in line with most of your other ideas.

?No more nonsensical then what you propose. You mention Islam, capital "I", a proper noun. It?s a verb??

Here?s a tip for you? don?t embarrass yourself further by making claims without knowledge. Learn some basic Arabic. Islam is a NOUN. Sallama is the verb.

ws

Grourself

Peace Shuaib,

Like I said before, we cannot have a discussion without some common ground.

As Muslims, part of our Imaan involves imaan in Allah, the Prophet, and his books including the Quran. In one fell swoop you cast doubt on all these 3 by suggesting the Quran has been corrupted.

Imaan=conviction

I do not suggest the Qur'aan has been corrupted. I suggest the meanings have been corrupted by pagans, rejecters, lexicologists, the changing rules of what is grammatically correct and even perhaps the so-called infallible diacritical points.

How does one attain conviction? I propose, as per the Qur'aan, it is attained through the use of reason and intellect. The common ground you propose is based on blind faith. No where do I find blind faith enjoined in the Qur'aan and contrarily

218 Deaf, dumb and blind of Reason. They won?t return to begin their journey in the right direction until they use their faculties of perception and reasoning (822, 1676,1736).

1736 And you shall not follow blindly any information of which you have no direct knowledge. (Using your faculties of perception and conception) you must verify it for yourself. In the Court of your Lord, you will be held accountable for your hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning.

2573 ? And who, whenever they are reminded of even the Revelations of their Lord, do not fall at them deaf and blind (with deaf and blind acceptance).

2943 And so We cite examples for mankind, but men of Science will make best use of their intellect. (?Aalim = Scientist. 3022-23, 3527-2

The verse you quote is a perfect starting point and example. If we approach the Qur'aan objectively the traditional renditions present many discrepancies or contradictions.

482 Will they not then, try to understand this Quran? If it were from other than Allah they would surely have found in it much contradiction.

4113 But for the Grace of Allah upon you (O Prophet), a party among them were bent upon diverting you, but they only misled themselves. They cannot hurt you at all. He has given to you the Law and the Logic behind it. He teaches you that you knew not. Contrary to blind faith, the use of Reason empowers you with Conviction (1210. The Grace of Allah upon you is Infinite.

637 They say, ?If only a miracle could come down to him from his Lord!? Say, ?Allah surely has the Power to send down a miracle, but most of them do not use their knowledge.? (He does not wish to stun the human intellect with supernatural phenomena. He wants people to reflect and use reason 1210.

264 Had We so Willed, We could have sent down to them a Sign from the sky, to which they would have bent their necks in humility. (But, that is not Our Design. We expect them to use their reason 1210).

I have chosen to use the renditions by Dr. Shabbir Ahmed, a brilliant yet humble student of the Qur'aan. They are not literal but are his understanding and eliminate the need for additional explanations for my purpose here.

To suggest that anything has been added or subtracted from the Quran would cast doubt on the ENTIRE book. One could never claim TRUE imaan in an imperfectly preserved work.

Now you ask for PROOF that it wasn?t changed. But the Quran asks nonbelievers (and some Muslims I guess, as in this case) that if you think it was changed, then there should be discrepancies, i.e. it is a CHALLENGE. It?s not feasible for me to go through every verse to prove its validity, but all you need is ONE counterexample.

We must take the challenge and it goes both ways. Can one reasonably explain humans turned into apes and swine? A man hibernating for 100 years? A staff becomes a snake??These renditions defy reason. If a grammar book or a dictionary teaches that the words used are locked to THESE meanings then there ARE many contradictions. However, men of reason and intellect will not be swayed by these sources. They ponder on the signs and proofs in the Qur'aan that teach us some things of the nature of God and His control and power and His immutable laws, become convinced and take action upon this conviction. They will search for the truth of the claims and challenges in the Book and ponder on them in the same manner. I cannot propose to one unfamiliar with the Qur'aan that it is the infallible word of God and not bring proof. If one approaches the Book with a pure heart seeking guidance he does not leave behind his intellect and discernment. The claims and challenges in the Book must be investigated and the proofs of these claims must hold up to all scrutiny.

2.2 That Book is without doubt - in it - a guide - for those who are observant.
2.3 Those who are CONVINCED with the unseen and they uphold the commitments - and from what We provided to them - they contributed
2.4 And they are CONVINCED with what is transmitted to you and what was transmitted from before you, and with the hereafter - they are POSITIVELY CERTAIN.
2.5 They are - on the guidance from their Lord - and they are - themselves the benefactors.

These verses do not imply that you attain this conviction because you simply ?believe?. The Book continues and teaches us how to attain conviction. How does one become POSITIVELY CERTAIN of the hereafter? I put forward that is it by the use of reason and intellect and pondering over the proofs presented in the Book. Not blind faith at all. What has convinced a person that a staff can become a snake? We may rationalize that God can do all things and we have yet to understand the science behind this phenomena but that frame of mind is contrary to what He has taught us when He says His laws are immutable, He does not use the stunning of the intellect as proof. Science has not gone backwards. It?s not reasonably sound. Nor is it reasonably sound to think that as GUIDANCE God has used words, that according to some translators, man can never know or understand their meaning.

If a Book is called timeless then the original audience who became mo?min must have understood the base meaning. How else could they have attained conviction? The progress of science does not negate their understanding, it enhances upon it. The traditional renditions and lexicologists would have us believe fairy tales. I believe, note the use of the word believe, that the entire, the whole, the complete, Book is meant to be understood and acted upon. As to conviction, it is to be attained, forward motion, as indicted by the form of the verb. In this case I find no fault in the FALLIBLE grammar book as this rule appeals to my intellect. I am not obligated to blindly accept any man made rules; they have been known to change or to be wrong. To simply read the Qur'aan and accept it at face value is not what is purported in the Qur'aan itself.

I totally reject what has been handed down to us as THE TRUTH from previous generations as ?the meaning of the Glorious Qur'aan?. I?ll search for the meaning myself with those of like minds (or better minds lol ). It?s a huge undertaking but that?s how you eat an elephant, one bite at a time.

I ?believe? there is a system of checks and balances (tasreef) built into the Book that eliminate the need to guess which meaning from outside sources, such as dictionaries and grammar books and possibly diacritical points, is correct. I am seeking conviction and certainty for what I ?believe?. This is the ground I stand on. God is aware of my intentions.

Now I will address the rest of your diatribe but only briefly cuz you obviously refuse to play nice

Borderline Racist? You don?t know from racism my brother if you could say something so sappy. The Arabs are in a league of their own when it comes to racism. To be a racist one needs power. A simple comment is not worth mentioning in the context of racism. Don?t believe the hype.
Do you think that God was not aware of ?ajami?? Did He say they were the worse or are the worse among the desert arabs? We are talking Arabs and I included the verse in context which you failed to grasp.

You have no idea unless I tell you as to what I believe. When you ass-u-me you make an ass out of you and me.

You cannot seem to understand, I was not talking parts of speech with noun/verb etc. It is meant to show that you chose to make a proper noun where none is indicated. Are there now caps in Arabic? You also obviously do not know that what was once mathematically sound has now since changed as do most man-made conclusions and theories which renders your reference moot. Your history is lies agreed upon or his-story. Grammar as a science is another one of your jokes, just like the science of hadith. Cuz you or the proverbial they call it that don?t make it so. I will allow the author, whom I can assure you knows how to spell, defend his findings on Ramadan. You hang in there with your jibberish translations and grammar books and I?ll continue to search for what makes sense. BTW, don?t bother trying to teach me how to spell ?because.? Nah Nah Na Nah Na.
Now that's what I'd call embarrassing behavior! o

grourself, this is me dusting off and putting back on ADULT disguise of one who hates to argue with those who act like children.

unknownuser

Good to listen to you speaking-everything so nicely put.

Like your reasoning.

Salaam.